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Star-Gazer
Trust and you'll be trusted

Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 2489
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:49 pm 
 

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000
Image

source:
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html

aChapo wrote:
Former knowledge from School (American, not biased by the "Zionist Scum")
...huh? I went to Montessori, Catholic, public, private, and was home-schooled - only in Montessori do I remember no pro-Israel sentiment (probably because it was pre through 2nd Grade)
In Catholic school the pro-Israel indoctrination was the harshest, but in high school I was made to stand in front of the class and explain my position after I wrote that I disagreed with the information the history teacher was providing. I got a couple of jeers, but most were happy that I challenged the teacher (even if they had no interest in the subject) and articulated my points so much that the teacher made me sit down mid-way through after seeing that I was making a coherent, valid argument - I still received an 'A.' Oh, and I forgot I made my 6th grade Catholic teacher cry in front of the class when I said I would not repeat the 'facts' that we were being taught in religion class about The Holocaust© (I got a 'D' that Quarter)

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JobMKII
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:37 pm
Posts: 180
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:56 pm 
 

einvolk wrote:
Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000
Image

source:
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2008.html

aChapo wrote:
Former knowledge from School (American, not biased by the "Zionist Scum")
...huh? I went to Montessori, Catholic, public, private, and was home-schooled - only in Montessori do I remember no pro-Israel sentiment (probably because it was pre through 2nd Grade)
In Catholic school the pro-Israel indoctrination was the harshest, but in high school I was made to stand in front of the class and explain my position after I wrote that I disagreed with the information the history teacher was providing. I got a couple of jeers, but most were happy that I challenged the teacher (even if they had no interest in the subject) and articulated my points so much that the teacher made me sit down mid-way through after seeing that I was making a coherent, valid argument - I still received an 'A.' Oh, and I forgot I made my 6th grade Catholic teacher cry in front of the class when I said I would not repeat the 'facts' that we were being taught in religion class about The Holocaust© (I got a 'D' that Quarter)


I dig you'd rather the tide would have turned in favor of more Israeli children being killed and less those of the "Palestinian" (there isn't such an animal; they are either Egyptian, Jordanian or any of those Arabic nomads mentioned by the guy you have replied to. The only "Palestinians" are the Philistines who had fought the Hebrews in the biblical times...).
Makes sense, but be careful not to mix your plain anti-Semitism with your dime-a-dozen moralistic "values" of who's right and who's wrong and how the Israelis are the bad guys.

Regarding pro-Israeli Catholics, you really make me laugh. Franky, you and your likes are really confused, not knowing what to believe and whom to support. Let's try together to make a big puzzle out of this, try to follow:

Chatolics>Haters of Jews "the Christ slayers" > the beginning of the classic anti-Semitism > lovers of Arabs > Hey, but Arabs are also Semites > Oh no, so we're not antisemites, just haters of Jews > Hey, but hating Jews is a very Christian "thing" > Then I'm not a Christian, but I still hate Jews > But why do you hate Jews? > Well, because they're Jews > No wait, I hate only Israelis because they kill innocent "Palestinian" children > Hey, even Hitler loved Arabs > But they are subhumans, like Jews, no?> Yeah, but still, them hating Jews as well, makes them sort of our allies, no> Also we're, Nazis are anti Christian > Wait, but the Christians themselves invented anti-semitism > Yea, so...know what? I'm a Christian then > So, Catholics are pro-zionist scum or not? > Ehhhh..., they teach in their worthless schools to love the Jews...> The Catholics??? > So Jews bad or good ? > Jews good, Israelis bad > ...they kill so many innocent Palestinian children...

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9648
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:18 pm 
 

It's well-known that Islamic terrorists hide behind children and civilians. It's also known that they don't mind targeting those in their operations. On the other hand, I have seen little evidence that the IDF purposefully targets children.

Quote:
Oh, and I forgot I made my 6th grade Catholic teacher cry in front of the class when I said I would not repeat the 'facts' that we were being taught in religion class about The Holocaust© (I got a 'D' that Quarter)

Aren't you a wonderful tough guy. Pathetic.

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JobMKII
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:37 pm
Posts: 180
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:45 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
It's well-known that Islamic terrorists hide behind children and civilians. It's also known that they don't mind targeting those in their operations. On the other hand, I have seen little evidence that the IDF purposefully targets children.

Quote:
Oh, and I forgot I made my 6th grade Catholic teacher cry in front of the class when I said I would not repeat the 'facts' that we were being taught in religion class about The Holocaust© (I got a 'D' that Quarter)

Aren't you a wonderful tough guy. Pathetic.


You would not believe the "stunts" these Palestinian terrorists pull, and I'm talking hard facts:
They hide in their own ambulances, attacking from there while permeated driving around for being ambulances. They move around guns and ammunition using these ambulances as their transportation and convey tools.

They shot and fire missiles from their own hospitals, schools and universities.

They are specifically fond of bombing moms-and-children kind of gathering places like kindergartens, coffee houses and the likes.

They try to bomb Israeli hospitals after being permitted to these very same hospitals for urgent medical care either for themselves or for someone in their families.

They apply to the Israeli universities, (chemistry being their favorite major) they smuggle chemicals form labs to aid in building home-made bombs and then try to bomb the very universities that had given them education. Then, after they are caught and serve time in jail, they want to apply again to the same university (the Hebrew university in Jerusalem, in that specific case) to finish their doctorate (Ph.D.) degree and they appeal to Israeli courts when being rejected (but miraculously, the Israeli leftists support their position in their so very familiar typical suicidal manner of sacrificing everything in the name of some moralistic idea which the terrorists don't even deserve)...

Palestinian snipers target infants and murder them without even blinking (2 year old baby girl in Hebron was murdered like that by a sniper while being held in her father's arms)...

I could spill so much text here, but I won't...

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Star-Gazer
Trust and you'll be trusted

Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 2489
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:20 pm 
 

JobMKII wrote:
I dig you'd rather the tide would have turned in favor of more Israeli children being killed and less those of the "Palestinian"
you are a sick fuckin' asshole! (strange that Morrigan doesn't comment on stuff like this...)

JobMKII wrote:
Regarding pro-Israeli Catholics, you really make me laugh. Franky, you and your likes are really confused, not knowing what to believe and whom to support. Let's try together to make a big puzzle out of this, try to follow:

weird bullshit
sorry, couldn't follow - you are strange, strange, my poor friend (with a sick twisted mind, too boot!)

btw, did anyone else follow this ijit's incoherency? I tried, I really did! (greysnow, note he blames LEFTISTS)



Morrigan wrote:
It's well-known that Islamic terrorists hide behind children and civilians. It's also known that they don't mind targeting those in their operations. On the other hand, I have seen little evidence that the IDF purposefully targets children.
I guess if your going to justify killing children somehow, that's an OK excuse

Morrigan wrote:
Quote:
Oh, and I forgot I made my 6th grade Catholic teacher cry in front of the class when I said I would not repeat the 'facts' that we were being taught in religion class about The Holocaust© (I got a 'D' that Quarter)

Aren't you a wonderful tough guy. Pathetic.
Tough guy? My teacher was INSANE and cried another time when a pretty girl wore makeup to school so she yelled at the girl and proceeded to tell the girl that she was wearing aborted fetuses on her face (said teach took a leave of absence the next year and never returned)

what is your beef? seriously! you are a total prick for no reason! have I ever met you, or insulted you? its like you follow me around on these forums and pick out one or two sentences to attack me on, though NEVER debating the facts or accuracy of information! its both confusing and disturbing...

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Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1894
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:11 pm 
 

JobMKII wrote:
They are specifically fond of bombing moms-and-children kind of gathering places like kindergartens, coffee houses and the likes.

Especially fond of, eh? So you think terrorists get a hard-on from doing these sort of things? These "terrorists" resort to these desperate measures because they have no other way of fighting back. When you're being harrassed and bullied by a bigger, more powerful force, one has no option but to resort to guerilla combat and other underhanded methods of fighting. These Palestinians have nothing to lose because all have already been taken from them by the Israelis. The fact that they are willing to sacrifice some of their own shows the desperation they've been driven to. Honour no longer has a role in this conflict.

Quote:
They try to bomb Israeli hospitals after being permitted to these very same hospitals for urgent medical care either for themselves or for someone in their families.



Quote:
They apply to the Israeli universities, (chemistry being their favorite major) they smuggle chemicals form labs to aid in building home-made bombs and then try to bomb the very universities that had given them education. Then, after they are caught and serve time in jail, they want to apply again to the same university (the Hebrew university in Jerusalem, in that specific case) to finish their doctorate (Ph.D.) degree and they appeal to Israeli courts when being rejected (but miraculously, the Israeli leftists support their position in their so very familiar typical suicidal manner of sacrificing everything in the name of some moralistic idea which the terrorists don't even deserve)...

Had they owned their own hospitals, universities and courts, they wouldn't be using yours. Further evidence of the iron grip Israel has on the Palestinians. It's because of this that the Palestinians are unable to maintain a stable society of their own. It should be noted that the Palestinian people still own 94% of Palestine, and since 1948 the most basic of their political and economical rights have been suppressed. The right to defend anybody's home and whatever other property is one of the most basic of human rights, however, when a Palestinian defends his home, he becomes a "terrorist" automatically and any Israeli retaliation is justified. In the Western media, a Palestinian has one and only one right: to die silently.

Quote:
Palestinian snipers target infants and murder them without even blinking (2 year old baby girl in Hebron was murdered like that by a sniper while being held in her father's arms)...

Compared to Israeli soldiers who slaughter entire families under the guise that they're hunting down alleged terrorists that are hiding in those particular locations (most of them being civilian homes).

Let's say hypothetically what many Zionists claim about the IDF is true...they are attempting to hunt down terrorists, but they end up killing innocents in the crossfire. Wouldn't that mean the the IDF consists of mostly incompetant soldiers who don't know how to do their jobs? Isn't it the duty of every soldier, to complete their missions while keeping civilian casualties as low as possible? But the IDF ends up killing entire families in the process (this is becoming more and more frequent) of some of their missions. Israel has a reputation for having one of the most efficient and well-trained militaries in the world. So isn't it more likely that they're killing people simply out of racist hate than the pre-conceived notion that these people are killed in the crossfire of battle between the IDF and Hamas?

Quote:
I could spill so much text here, but I won't...

You know what's funny about all this? Even though there is a huge possibility of Israel wiping out the Palestinians completely, it will not bring Israel peace. There will always be other countries and other special interest groups (some of them even being from non-Islamic countries) that are constantly plotting Israel's demise. Until Zionism has been put to an end, the Jews will never see peace. I wouldn't even doubt the possibility of a second Holocaust. The Jews were a thorn on the side of the Germans and they responded and the same events are unfolding all over again, but this time in the Middle East. It's Jewish arrogance and their belief of a God-given entitlement to that land that puts them in constant danger. Iran will mostly likely be the next contender in this game. So Israel better prepare itself for the fight of its life.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1894
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:18 pm 
 

An interesting documentary for those who have the time to watch it: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 8738&hl=en
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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NeglectedField
Onwards to Camulodunum!

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:19 am
Posts: 1390
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:38 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
All the same I am not really going to lose sleep that she was bulldozed. Flag burning hippies who support Palestinian terrorist do not really float my boat.


Me neither, but one or two happen to be friends of mine.

It doesn't change my belief that the Palestinian's tactics are crude and that I have a general distate for Arabs as a whole. Every Israeli I've personally encountered has more or less been sound, and more mentally stable. I know that's no argument though.

It's also just kinda weird to me, the anti-Israel perspective of some NS people, I mean, surely on a supremacist level, Jews fit a 'European' mould better than Arabs do, and surely on ethno-nationalist principle, a Jewish state makes sense.
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The solitary one waits for grace...

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Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1894
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:43 pm 
 

NeglectedField wrote:
The_Count wrote:
All the same I am not really going to lose sleep that she was bulldozed. Flag burning hippies who support Palestinian terrorist do not really float my boat.


Me neither, but one or two happen to be friends of mine.

It doesn't change my belief that the Palestinian's tactics are crude and that I have a general distate for Arabs as a whole. Every Israeli I've personally encountered has more or less been sound, and more mentally stable. I know that's no argument though.

It's also just kinda weird to me, the anti-Israel perspective of some NS people, I mean, surely on a supremacist level, Jews fit a 'European' mould better than Arabs do, and surely on ethno-nationalist principle, a Jewish state makes sense.

I think all the fighting in the Middle East, can comically be summed up in this video: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1J-QPfmcwwY
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9648
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:07 pm 
 

einvolk wrote:
(strange that Morrigan doesn't comment on stuff like this...)

What exactly did you want me to say? :rolleyes:

Quote:
I guess if your going to justify killing children somehow, that's an OK excuse

Ah, the king of strawmen strikes again. "OK excuse"? I explained the discrepancies in numbers. But keep making shit up if you feel like it. It's so very much you, isn't it.

einvolk wrote:
Tough guy? My teacher was INSANE and cried another time when a pretty girl wore makeup to school so she yelled at the girl and proceeded to tell the girl that she was wearing aborted fetuses on her face (said teach took a leave of absence the next year and never returned)


Ah, but did you even mention that in your post? Nope, you bragged about making a teacher cry by refusing to accept her "lies about the Holocaust (©)". Now read your post again and tell me it doesn't sound like you weren't bragging about being a little shit? You didn't even elaborate on what those "lies" were, but the way you added a (©) to the Holocaust shows that it wasn't necessary since you're clearly a denier anyway so it's almost all lies to you. (But I'll bet you'll deny that, too.)

Quote:
what is your beef? seriously! you are a total prick for no reason! have I ever met you, or insulted you? its like you follow me around on these forums and pick out one or two sentences to attack me on, though NEVER debating the facts or accuracy of information! its both confusing and disturbing...

What a whiny, pathetic crock of shit! :lol:

Look, you aren't as smart, clever or educated as you think just because you profess to be a libertarian who doesn't read "mainstream media". If you constantly repeat neo-nazi mantras or establish a pattern of posting links to WP/neo-nazi/anti-Israel propaganda, don't come whining when you get called on it, even if on one case or two you might happen to have a good point hidden in there. It's called crying wolf, and your credibility is pretty much zero at this point (and has been for a long time).
And you're a liar to boot: I *have* attacked your so-called information before, you just chose to ignore it and instead whine that I'm personally oppressing you. :violin: Remember when you wrote, "I get it, einvolk bad Morrigan good"? You just love playing the victim. You're worse than R_H in this regard. At least he manned up recently.

And now you have the gall to say "what's your beef" when you just posted something about making a teacher cry (which was also completely off-topic), when the whole thing was just a lame, disingenuous "But my teacher was a bitch, see??" gotcha.

I absolutely abhor such dishonesty. I don't give a flying fuck who you have or haven't insulted, that still makes you extremely annoying, and it's pretty clear to myself and many others that despite all your pleas to the contrary, you are not here to debate, but to push your agenda (and play the victim when you get called on it).

Maybe, just maybe, if you stopped being with the dishonesty and persecution complex, you'd get taken more seriously. In the meantime, you'll keep getting called on your fallacies.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9648
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:13 pm 
 

Back on topic:

Quote:
Until Zionism has been put to an end, the Jews will never see peace.

See, proof here that they'll never be happy until Israel is "wiped off the map". You don't even WANT peace, do you?

Quote:
I wouldn't even doubt the possibility of a second Holocaust. The Jews were a thorn on the side of the Germans and they responded

Oh dear...

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Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1894
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:04 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
See, proof here that they'll never be happy until Israel is "wiped off the map". You don't even WANT peace, do you?

The Jews got themselves into this mess by establishing their own state under false pretenses and now they bitch about how they're trying to be killed while they systematically kill the indigenous peoples of that land because of their stubborn belief that because they "suffered so terribly" in the Holocaust, that somehow entitles them to someone else's land. Well, you know what? Fuck them. They kill innocent people under the guise of self-defense, but really, how is killing children a form of self-defense? Simultaneously, they turn around and whine that the Palestinians don't want peace. Even if that's true, I can understand why they wouldn't. Israel is the bane of their very existence, and until it's been eliminated, they won't be able to live. But you, assuming you're Jewish, have most likely been brainwashed by your parents (as most Jews are) into believing the Jews are entitled to Israel. I guess you'll accuse me of jumping to conclusions, but I know for a fact that is true. A Jewish friend of mine (who was offered a free trip to Israel by some Zionist organization dedicated to increasing Israel's Jewish population) went to Israel for a week. He told me, that while there, the people there attempted to persuade him into moving to Israel, but as soon he rejected their offer, they gave him the cold shoulder and he was shunned. This, unfortunately, is a common mentality amongst most Israelis...Jews who do not embrace Zionism are considered self-hating Jews and are immediately shunned by the Jewish community (a video regarding this). But I guess it doesn't matter, any evidence I provide to you will be automatically regarded by you as anti-Israel propoganda. The fact that you automatically dismiss my arguments and that of einvolk's proves there is no debating with you when it comes to topics where the arguing beliefs contradict yours.
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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Trevor
Niggers and beaners and kikes, oh my!

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:24 am
Posts: 289
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:09 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Quote:
I wouldn't even doubt the possibility of a second Holocaust. The Jews were a thorn on the side of the Germans and they responded

Oh dear...

a big torn I might add:

http://www.metal-archives.com/board/vie ... ht=#862914
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Whoever becomes a sheep will find a wolf to eat him.
* * * *
folk recommendations thread :
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/vie ... hp?t=18983

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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:25 pm 
 

Osgilliath wrote:
More Israelis are killed in car accidents than in actual terrorist attacks, and this is off-handedly admitted by many Jewish publications / (2). To say that any act of Palestinian aggression justifies Israeli retribution is ridiculous; one only needs to compare their technology. Many have seen it, but the Israeli developed "corner shot" trumps home made dirty bombs and 60 year old Russian weapons.


Well, I know I don't have anything to prove it, but Road Rage is a VERY common thing in Israel. 3 or 4 people are killed every day. That's what was on the news back when I lived there (why would the Israel news inflate car accident numbers?). Also, what should the Israelis do, if they are bombarded by rockets from the Gaza strip and the west bank? Do you expect them to say "Arabs, you are a bunch of assholes for shooting rockets at us, but we won't do shit, because we have better weapons"?

Quote:
...huh? I went to Montessori, Catholic, public, private, and was home-schooled - only in Montessori do I remember no pro-Israel sentiment (probably because it was pre through 2nd Grade)
In Catholic school the pro-Israel indoctrination was the harshest, but in high school I was made to stand in front of the class and explain my position after I wrote that I disagreed with the information the history teacher was providing. I got a couple of jeers, but most were happy that I challenged the teacher (even if they had no interest in the subject) and articulated my points so much that the teacher made me sit down mid-way through after seeing that I was making a coherent, valid argument - I still received an 'A.' Oh, and I forgot I made my 6th grade Catholic teacher cry in front of the class when I said I would not repeat the 'facts' that we were being taught in religion class about The Holocaust© (I got a 'D' that Quarter)


I just put the fact that my school is not a Jewish school so that no one will jump on the "UR FROM A JEWISH SCHOOL, YOU ARE LYING" bandwagon. But If we are telling stories, I remember I made mt rabbi really mad by eating a pork sandwich. And one time, I made a neo-nazi cry by calling him an idiot and denying the Aryan race©.


Quote:
Especially fond of, eh? So you think terrorists get a hard-on from doing these sort of things? These "terrorists" resort to these desperate measures because they have no other way of fighting back. When you're being harrassed and bullied by a bigger, more powerful force, one has no option but to resort to guerilla combat and other underhanded methods of fighting. These Palestinians have nothing to lose because all have already been taken from them by the Israelis. The fact that they are willing to sacrifice some of their own shows the desperation they've been driven to. Honour no longer has a role in this conflict.


Here is a small account on the "victims"
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... ng-it.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to ... a_dura.php
http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

I will summarize, if you will:
Many of the "news" you see are false, as the Arab propaganda machine is the best of it's kind.


Quote:
when a Palestinian defends his home, he becomes a "terrorist" automatically and any Israeli retaliation is justified.


Well, if by defending his home you mean "go to a big city and blow up a bus", then I am 100% with you.


Furthermore, THERE IS NOT SUCH THING AS A PALESTINIAN. As I've said before, Palestine is a name for a COUNTRY (Israel), everyone who was born in that country is a Palestinian. "Palestinians", as you've called them, are either Egyptian or Syrian, and I promise you, if they will somehow succeed in taking over Israel, they will become Egyptian or Syrian right away.



Edited for minor grammatical/ phrasing mistakes.
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Catachthonian - About a sentence in Russia wrote:
I don't know much about American prisons, but here in Russia one year would be more than enough to turn that Oklahoma man into a total wreck (particularly in the rectum area).

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Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:04 am
Posts: 1894
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:45 pm 
 

aChapo wrote:
Here is a small account on the "victims"
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/0 ... ng-it.html
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to ... a_dura.php
http://www.zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

I will summarize, if you will:
Many of the "news" you see are false, as the Arab propaganda machine is the best of it's kind.

Funny how one of those sources accuses Reuters of altering images. Reuters is generally known to be one of the most impartial news sources in the world. But I guess, just like the UN, anything that shows gruesome photos of a dead Arab or Muslim killed at the hands of Israeli troops will always be shown as biased.

Quote:
Well, if by defending his home you mean "go to a big city and blow up a bus", then I am 100% with you.

Great statement. Really, I wasn't expecting you take what I said and use it out of context at all. :roll:

Quote:
Furthermore, THERE IS NOT SUCH THING AS A PALESTINIAN. As I've said before, Palestine is a name for a COUNTRY (Israel), everyone who was born in that country is a Palestinian. "Palestinians", as you've called them, are either Egyptian or Syrian, and I promise you, if they will somehow succeed in taking over Israel, they will become Egyptian or Syrian right away.

For the moment, let's assume that the Palestinian people should not have a country of their own because they have never had a state, then why should the peoples of Salvador, Guatemala, Congo, Algeria, ... etc. have the right of self-determination?

It should be noted that none of these countries had a state prior to gaining independence, nor a distinct language or culture that set them apart from their neighboring states. In other words, even if it's true that the Palestinian people had neither a state, nor a distinct culture or language: Is that a good reason to confiscate their homes, farms, and businesses? Is that a good reason to block their return to their homes? Is that a good reason to nullify their citizenship in the country in which they were born?
_________________
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
Sathanas_BM wrote:
The biggest influence of Swedish Death Metal is In Flames.

That's not right. That's not even wrong. It's so fundamentally inaccurate that I think it may well be incorrectable.

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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:25 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Funny how one of those sources accuses Reuters of altering images. Reuters is generally known to be one of the most impartial news sources in the world. But I guess, just like the UN, anything that shows gruesome photos of a dead Arab or Muslim killed at the hands of Israeli troops will always be shown as biased.



If you would have READ the article, you would have understood that it was a freelance photographer that submitted those pictures, and as soon as Reuters found out, they took them out.

Quote:
Great statement. Really, I wasn't expecting you take what I said and use it out of context at all. Rolling Eyes


You make it sound like Israel just sends troops into the Palestinian neighborhood randomly to take people's houses. It couldn't be further from the truth. The Arabs shoot rockets into civilian areas, Israel sends in troops to find the people responsible, then they show those poor Arabs on the news, attacked by a Jewish brute.

Quote:
Is that a good reason to confiscate their homes, farms, and businesses? Is that a good reason to block their return to their homes? Is that a good reason to nullify their citizenship in the country in which they were born?


Prior to attacks in the 1967 war, Israeli cars drove through Arab neighborhoods and announced that whoever stays, will get to retain their property, as they (Israel) won't take it away. The Israeli government did not confiscate anything. After those Arabs left (who considered themselves Israeli BTW), the government waited, and waited and waited, until the country fall into depression, and those houses were needed to be sold , and sold them. Show me one country, which waited for the refugees to return after a war, while promising them no harm.

And yes, there are checkpoints. Since a lot of Arabs bring guns and explosives into the country, it is necessary to check everyone, as they also make CHILDREN and women carry explosives.
_________________
Catachthonian - About a sentence in Russia wrote:
I don't know much about American prisons, but here in Russia one year would be more than enough to turn that Oklahoma man into a total wreck (particularly in the rectum area).

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hells_unicorn
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:04 am 
 

I was a bit hesitant to enter this fray because of how heated things were getting on here, but I think I'll give it a go and see who gets pissed at me first.

Quote:
You make it sound like Israel just sends troops into the Palestinian neighborhood randomly to take people's houses. It couldn't be further from the truth. The Arabs shoot rockets into civilian areas, Israel sends in troops to find the people responsible, then they show those poor Arabs on the news, attacked by a Jewish brute.


People who don't have homes anymore sound poor to me, particularly in comparison to the person with the bulldozer who then goes home to his family in a condo in Tel Aviv. When people see unarmed protesters standing up to people with guns and tanks, they tend to look sympathetic. A good and sensible cure to this negative portrayal would be to knock off the heavy handed responses, but given that we have a war on terror to fight, I suppose any measures are justifiable in the name of it.

Quote:
And yes, there are checkpoints. Since a lot of Arabs bring guns and explosives into the country, it is necessary to check everyone, as they also make CHILDREN and women carry explosives.


These were the exact tactics that Vietcong would use on America troops during the Vietnam War. They ended when the occupying forces left. If you want these methods to end, you might consider taking lessons from the historical mistakes made by other peoples.

Quote:
For the moment, let's assume that the Palestinian people should not have a country of their own because they have never had a state, then why should the peoples of Salvador, Guatemala, Congo, Algeria, ... etc. have the right of self-determination?


Most of these countries had their borders decided at the caprice of outside forces, which is why most of them suffered extended periods of internal chaos. This is exactly what happened in Israel, and I dare say it will likely continue until the disagreement between the occupants of it is rectified with one side being defeated.

Quote:
The Jews got themselves into this mess by establishing their own state under false pretenses and now they bitch about how they're trying to be killed while they systematically kill the indigenous peoples of that land because of their stubborn belief that because they "suffered so terribly" in the Holocaust, that somehow entitles them to someone else's land. Well, you know what? Fuck them. They kill innocent people under the guise of self-defense, but really, how is killing children a form of self-defense?


Given their conduct in this matter and how it has inflamed hatred towards them by all surrounding nations, one has to wonder what they were doing to get all of Medieval Europe pissed at them.

Nonetheless, I wonder what kind of compromise the Palestinians are willing to make if they find the Israelis in a more consolatory mood down the road. If they are offered at least access to their various sacred places and freedom of travel, would they be willing to put aside everything that has happened and not take vengeance upon their former oppressors?

I don't know if there is an actual solution to this problem, I can't fully sympathize with either side anymore. This could likely be solved if all of the Khazari leadership in Israel decided to pack their bags and find another place to set up their country, and allowed the various Jews to disperse themselves back into their peaceful exile. However, I don't think this is going to happen so I would think it prudent for America to stop sending in all the military support and foreign aid and let the chips fall where they may, and the same of course goes for Europe.

Quote:
See, proof here that they'll never be happy until Israel is "wiped off the map". You don't even WANT peace, do you?


If peace is merely acquiescing to the right of someone to forcefully take your home or whatever else they wish, merely to stop violence and bloodshed, why should anyone want it?

Just my general thoughts on the subject:

This is just a question that I thought I'd throw in to spice things up a little. To be perfectly frank, I understand why the Israelis here are so passionate about protecting their people and wanting the violence to stop without admitting any wrong on their part, but I wonder about the reasons why everyone else here is so involved in supporting either side of this. Why do you even care what happens in this place? It's basically a hunk of dirt between Jordan and the Mediterranean Sea that is being fought over by two large tribes of people with differing opinions on the nature of a God that practically all of you concur is mythological? Wouldn't it be more in line with your modern/enlightened sensibilities to not involve yourself in such primitive things?
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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:25 am 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:



Quote:
And yes, there are checkpoints. Since a lot of Arabs bring guns and explosives into the country, it is necessary to check everyone, as they also make CHILDREN and women carry explosives.


These were the exact tactics that Vietcong would use on America troops during the Vietnam War. They ended when the occupying forces left. If you want these methods to end, you might consider taking lessons from the historical mistakes made by other peoples.




Leave where? The vietcong's sole purpose was to take over vietnam, kick America out, and preach communism. The Arabs are on the border with Israel, not on the other side of the world. Their only goal is to wipe Israel.

No Checkpoints > MORE terrorism> More people killed
More Checkpoints > Less terrorism > Long lines of Arabs > Bad Image

What's better, dead people, or people who have to stand in line?
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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:39 am 
 

Quote:
Leave where? The vietcong's sole purpose was to take over vietnam, kick America out, and preach communism. The Arabs are on the border with Israel, not on the other side of the world. Their only goal is to wipe Israel.


Well, speaking hypothetically, given how much support you have in America, particularly the Bible Belt and the Northeast, I'm sure a state like New York or Iowa would love to have you. And considering how much money AIPAC has, you'd be able to charter enough flights and cruise ships or whatever to get it done. Heck, with America's federal government support of your nation, some might even get to ride on a giant Air Craft Carrier with a full fleet of destroyers as an escort if you wanted.

I don't think this will ever happen because of how stubborn people get when they've lived on land for decades despite how they acquired it. So by all means keep bulldozing houses, violating people's privacy and torturing political prisoners, just don't expect me to care when the families that you've left without homes fight back and actually take a few of your countrymen with them. All is fair in war, and inventing cute little names like terrorist for your enemies does not impress me.

The only reason I can see for Zionists staying in Israel is because of all the religious attachment to Jerusalem, which is why I am perplexed at why self-proclaimed Atheists are supporting you. I can understand why you don't want to leave, Jerusalem is a fine historical golden calf that was stolen from you almost 2,000 years ago.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9648
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:37 pm 
 

Trevor wrote:

How embarrassing for you that you would refer to your own posts that got quickly refuted soon after. Please do yourself a favour and leave this thread.

Viral wrote:
The Jews got themselves into this mess by establishing their own state under false pretenses

Highly debatable.

Quote:
and now they bitch about how they're trying to be killed while they systematically kill the indigenous peoples of that land because of their stubborn belief that because they "suffered so terribly" in the Holocaust, that somehow entitles them to someone else's land. Well, you know what? Fuck them.

Could you please generalise more? Why should the Israeli citizens of today be responsible for what the founders may have done? How many have said that it's all justified by the Holocaust? How many of them "systematically kill the indigenous peoples"?

Quote:
They kill innocent people under the guise of self-defense, but really, how is killing children a form of self-defense?

How exactly should they react when they receive rockets, and then try to retaliate on Palestinians hiding behind children as shields?
Perhaps it's time for the Palestinians, Hezbollah and others, to decide whether they hate Israel more than they love their children.

Quote:
But you, assuming you're Jewish,

Assumptions, especially unfounded and inaccurate ones, make for a very weak argument. So do poisoning of the well/ad hominems, blanket generalisations and unsubstantiated assertions, for the record.

Quote:
have most likely been brainwashed by your parents (as most Jews are) into believing the Jews are entitled to Israel. I guess you'll accuse me of jumping to conclusions, but I know for a fact that is true.

O RLY?
Considering you just made a very stupid assumption based on nothing more than reactionary emotionalism, you'll forgive me if I scoff. Especially considering the press here has a pro-Palestinian slant. I wonder who brainwashed me? Maybe my imaginary Jewish parents. :lol:

Quote:
*anecdote edited*
But I guess it doesn't matter, any evidence I provide to you will be automatically regarded by you as anti-Israel propoganda.

Negative. This time you aren't posting propaganda... you are posting an anecdote. Which is also not evidence. ;) For your anecdote, I have a matching one: my Israeli friend (who designed this site's logo), is hardly a zionist at all (he likes some NSBM, that should tell you something) and hasn't been brainwashed into thinking Jews are entitled to Israel because of religion or any such thing.

Quote:
The fact that you automatically dismiss my arguments and that of einvolk's proves there is no debating with you when it comes to topics where the arguing beliefs contradict yours.

I dismiss your arguments because they are feeble and based on purely emotional reactions and trite anecdotes. My "beliefs"? You have no idea what my beliefs are because I have not even stated them, but then, you've already made one inaccurate assumption, what's one more I guess. You just jerk your knee and foam at the mouth every time Israel is mentioned, and you even admitted you want to see it wiped off the map and that the Jews deserved what the Germans did to them (and apparently see nothing extremist or fanatical about this). You complain about dead children, but you show that you don't care about the Israeli citizens living there. Maybe you think they should be all killed or displaced but then, that was wrong when it happened to the Palestinians, or so you say; do two wrongs make a right? Maybe you think so. I don't know. All I know is that there is little debating to be done with you because you are thoroughly incapable of being remotely objective.


Last edited by Morrigan on Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JobMKII
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:37 pm
Posts: 180
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:19 pm 
 

It both baffles and enrages me how some of you really think (?) that the real big problem of the world is the Jews/Zionists/Israelis rather than the Arabs/Muslims/Terrorists.

Speaking of who has the "right" on the land of Israel:

A. The Hebrews were there many centuries before any "Palestinian" was even conceived.

B. So practically Jews "returned home" so-to-speak rather than confiscated another man's land

C. Land belongs to the greater power, it has been such throughout history. Jews were strong and dedicated, fought like lions and have taken what was historically theirs.

D. I guess what Spain, France, England, Portugal and any other fucking imperialistic "superpower" of old were allowed to do (into that enslaving, murdering, torturing half the world for gold, Christianity and other bullshit), the Jews are not entitled to in their small, god-forsaken piece of land in the middle of nowhere.

E. Canadians like Viral (no offense Morrigan) and Americans are the last ones on Earth to fucking lecture and moralize to Israelis about taking a land which isn't theirs. You have enslaved black people, murdered native Americans and basically invaded the "new world" when you already had had your stinking Europe from whence your ancestors came. Double standards? You better believe that, so how fucking dare you anyway?

F. Would you rather have Jews mostly dwelling in your countries rather than concentrated in one place like Israel, or is it that for you Jews don't deserve a place they could call home and their place is naturally in the ovens?

G. Seriously now, Viral, are you a Muslim? An Arab? Israelis bitching about the fact some sand niggers trying to kill them? Hahaha. Israelis are fucking lions, every kid who's a soldier at the age of 18 is more the man that you will ever be in a 100 years. Israelis fight like there's no tomorrow, like tigers but on the same breath hold the highest morals and "purity of the weapon" you'd only dream of.

H. When North America, mostly Canada, Europe and everywhere else is swept and over-populated by Muslims, oh, how you would all miss the Jews, oh how you will desperately miss these fucking Jews...


Last edited by JobMKII on Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8756
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:21 pm 
 

JobMKII wrote:

E. Canadians like Viral (no offense Morrigan) and Americans are the last ones on Earth to fucking lecture and moralize to Israelis about taking a land which isn't theirs. You have enslaved black people, murdered native Americans and basically invaded the "new world" when you already had had your stinking Europe from whence your ancestors came. Double standards? You better believe that, so how fucking dare you anyway?


:lol: I love it. To quote Morrigan:

Quote:
Could you please generalise more? Why should the Israeli citizens of today responsible for what the founders may have done? How many have said that it's all justified by the Holocaust? How many of them "systematically kill the indigenous peoples"?


Same applies for any people.

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Vrede
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:07 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:51 pm 
 

Looks like we've got a hardcore zionist among us. :lol:
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NeglectedField
Onwards to Camulodunum!

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:19 am
Posts: 1390
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:30 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Quote:
Could you please generalise more? Why should the Israeli citizens of today responsible for what the founders may have done? How many have said that it's all justified by the Holocaust? How many of them "systematically kill the indigenous peoples"?


Same applies for any people.


And I might add to that, it's a very collective view of people to judge today's people by their ancestor's actions. People become nothing more than an extension of their ancestry (as much as I think all people should be proud of their heritage) rather than people who can each make independent decisions, have varying beliefs, and so forth. If you'll excuse me for an ad hominem against such a view, it makes me think "what is it about you that's so boring that you see yourself as nothing more than an extension of this or that collective to which you belong?"

I say that fearing the contradictions that might have with other beliefs of mine.
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hells_unicorn
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:49 pm 
 

JobMKII wrote:
Speaking of who has the "right" on the land of Israel:

A. The Hebrews were there many centuries before any "Palestinian" was even conceived.

B. So practically Jews "returned home" so-to-speak rather than confiscated another man's land

C. Land belongs to the greater power, it has been such throughout history. Jews were strong and dedicated, fought like lions and have taken what was historically theirs.

D. I guess what Spain, France, England, Portugal and any other fucking imperialistic "superpower" of old were allowed to do (into that enslaving, murdering, torturing half the world for gold, Christianity and other bullshit), the Jews are not entitled to in their small, god-forsaken piece of land in the middle of nowhere.

E. Canadians like Viral (no offense Morrigan) and Americans are the last ones on Earth to fucking lecture and moralize to Israelis about taking a land which isn't theirs. You have enslaved black people, murdered native Americans and basically invaded the "new world" when you already had had your stinking Europe from whence your ancestors came. Double standards? You better believe that, so how fucking dare you anyway?

F. Would you rather have Jews mostly dwelling in your countries rather than concentrated in one place like Israel, or is it that for you Jews don't deserve a place they could call home and their place is naturally in the ovens?

G. Seriously now, Viral, are you a Muslim? An Arab? Israelis bitching about the fact some sand niggers trying to kill them? Hahaha. Israelis are fucking lions, every kid who's a soldier at the age of 18 is more the man that you will ever be in a 100 years. Israelis fight like there's no tomorrow, like tigers but on the same breath hold the highest morals and "purity of the weapon" you'd only dream of.

H. When North America, mostly Canada, Europe and everywhere else is swept and over-populated by Muslims, oh, how you would all miss the Jews, oh how you will desperately miss these fucking Jews...


A. According to my study of the Old Testament, the Hebrews kicked someone out of the land that became Israel before settling there who the Palestinians are most likely descended from. Now if you wish to state that the Jews have a right to return there and rule because of what the Jewish faith decrees, I will remind you that the exile the Israelites are under is still in effect, unless you wish to claim like John Hagee and a couple of other wack-job Evangelists that God is calling you back there to meet with the Messiah.

B. See my response to point A.

C. I have a feeling that without European and American weapons they would have fought like Lions and lost miserably. If you wish to argue that might makes right, Germany's reclamation of Danzig and the annexation of Czechoslovakia were also justifiable.

D. As the descendant of Irish dissidents who were subject to British Imperialism not all that dissimilar to what all the other countries practice, I will ask you not to throw such nonsense my way. The only thing close to Imperialistic that the Irish ever did historically was kill the leader of the Norse invaders Ivar the Boneless and drive his marauders out of their land.

E. Being descended from poor immigrants living in Massachusetts and New York, the black slavery and Indian genocide label also does not apply. I had 3 ancestors die on the battlefield during the Civil War because they were too poor to buy their way out of Abraham Lincoln's military draft. And as a proud supporter of the rights of all tribes to opt out of their treaties with the lying Union government and a partial descendant of the Lakota Sioux people, I will fucking dare to my heart's content.

F. If every other country on this planet wishes to place you in ovens (which I don't believe for a damned second), there is most likely a cause for it.

G. I have no comment to this, you just practically validated everything Viral has been saying, even though I disagreed some of what he said.

H. Yes indeed, tell it to me exactly like a representative from AIPAC would. The Muslims multiply like rabbits and deserved to be killed as such to keep the rest of the world safe. Maybe in time you will learn that you have become EXACTLY what it is that you hate.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9648
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:11 am 
 

JobMKII wrote:
It both baffles and enrages me how some of you really think (?) that the real big problem of the world is the Jews/Zionists/Israelis rather than the Arabs/Muslims/Terrorists.

Speaking of who has the "right" on the land of Israel:

A. The Hebrews were there many centuries before any "Palestinian" was even conceived.

B. So practically Jews "returned home" so-to-speak rather than confiscated another man's land

C. Land belongs to the greater power, it has been such throughout history. Jews were strong and dedicated, fought like lions and have taken what was historically theirs.

D. I guess what Spain, France, England, Portugal and any other fucking imperialistic "superpower" of old were allowed to do (into that enslaving, murdering, torturing half the world for gold, Christianity and other bullshit), the Jews are not entitled to in their small, god-forsaken piece of land in the middle of nowhere.

E. Canadians like Viral (no offense Morrigan) and Americans are the last ones on Earth to fucking lecture and moralize to Israelis about taking a land which isn't theirs. You have enslaved black people, murdered native Americans and basically invaded the "new world" when you already had had your stinking Europe from whence your ancestors came. Double standards? You better believe that, so how fucking dare you anyway?

F. Would you rather have Jews mostly dwelling in your countries rather than concentrated in one place like Israel, or is it that for you Jews don't deserve a place they could call home and their place is naturally in the ovens?

G. Seriously now, Viral, are you a Muslim? An Arab? Israelis bitching about the fact some sand niggers trying to kill them? Hahaha. Israelis are fucking lions, every kid who's a soldier at the age of 18 is more the man that you will ever be in a 100 years. Israelis fight like there's no tomorrow, like tigers but on the same breath hold the highest morals and "purity of the weapon" you'd only dream of.

H. When North America, mostly Canada, Europe and everywhere else is swept and over-populated by Muslims, oh, how you would all miss the Jews, oh how you will desperately miss these fucking Jews...


What a sad, disgusting post. Others have already addressed some of your fallacies (there's a plethora of them, the most offensive one probably being the implication that I'm somehow responsible for murdering and enslaving "half the world" just for being born in Canada), but I'll highlight this one:

"Israelis are fucking lions, every kid who's a soldier at the age of 18 is more the man that you will ever be in a 100 years."

Patently absurd. Valour and/or manhood are not strictly defined by one's worth in combat, for one thing. Second, all Israelis are drafted at that age, that's why most of them are soldiers - not because they are big, big men (I wonder what that says about the women, anyway). Do you really think that you Israelis are somehow made of different stock than any other man? My aforementioned Israeli friend told me about his time in the military, and told me that there are plenty of losers, jackasses and idiots in there, just like in any other military. Surprise, surprise. Being an Israeli yourself you'll probably claim otherwise, but I'll take his word against yours, since he's level-headed and intelligent and my first impression of you is your trite rant. Sure, they are as a whole highly trained and efficient, but this comes from the higher-ups, not from a random grunt (who just happened to have been born in a country with mandatory service) being any kind of "lion".

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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:03 am 
 

I just reread some of the posts here, and I want to comment on a few things:

1. Israel is not only the home of the Jews, there are many other people living in Israel. Christina/Muslim Arabs, Russians, Bedouin, Philippine, Thai, Druz etc., Saying that "The Jews hate Arabs" is absurd. It is true that Israel was founded with by people with Zionist beliefs, but right now, it couldn't be more diverse. Out of the 120 people of the parliament, about 20 are Arabs, While Arabs constitute less then 20% of the population. Show me another country that will have some of its "enemies" in the government...


2. Yes, the Hebrew people DID take the land from some tribes before settling in there, but the "white race" took land from the Indians and is not going to give it back (actually, if you look at the Indian reservations, they have poor medical care and the highest percent of alcoholism in America...). Israel (today, not the biblical one) was started by small settlements which grew into a bigger and bigger one, and were given land by the UN, the current borers were determined by wars (in which Israel started defensively). Still no reason to return any land (That's just how the borders for modern day France/Germany/Spain/many other European countries were determined).


3. The Palestinians were offered some territory back in return for and armistice. The Israel government had evacuated about 2000 people, and ruined many businesses and homes, but guess what, no peace.


Oh, and Viral, this

Quote:
This, unfortunately, is a common mentality amongst most Israelis...Jews who do not embrace Zionism are considered self-hating Jews and are immediately shunned by the Jewish community (a video regarding this).


Is B.S.
Yes, there is a small group of very orthodox Jews who do not aknoledge the existence of the state of Israel, but they are far from common (a community of about 100 people who live in seclusion). Yes, it was on the news, but do your research before saying that. There are a lot of people who live in America that burn flags and stuff.


P.S.
Morrigan,

Do you think I'm "level-headed and intelligent and my first impression of you is your trite rant", by any chance? I know it's kinda random ,but sill ;)
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9648
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:28 am 
 

No, you are nothing like this JobMKII fellow, at least from what I've seen.

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:29 am 
 

aChapo wrote:
I just reread some of the posts here, and I want to comment on a few things:

1. Israel is not only the home of the Jews, there are many other people living in Israel. Christina/Muslim Arabs, Russians, Bedouin, Philippine, Thai, Druz etc., Saying that "The Jews hate Arabs" is absurd. It is true that Israel was founded with by people with Zionist beliefs, but right now, it couldn't be more diverse. Out of the 120 people of the parliament, about 20 are Arabs, While Arabs constitute less then 20% of the population. Show me another country that will have some of its "enemies" in the government...


Not to mention Muslims who are serving proudly in the IDF. Many of which are volunteers. The link below has some random pictures I recall posting in another thread before.

http://www.israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?p=8621
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SCMugen
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 165
Location: Israel
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:14 am 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
Well, speaking hypothetically, given how much support you have in America, particularly the Bible Belt and the Northeast, I'm sure a state like New York or Iowa would love to have you. And considering how much money AIPAC has, you'd be able to charter enough flights and cruise ships or whatever to get it done. Heck, with America's federal government support of your nation, some might even get to ride on a giant Air Craft Carrier with a full fleet of destroyers as an escort if you wanted.

I don't think this will ever happen because of how stubborn people get when they've lived on land for decades despite how they acquired it. So by all means keep bulldozing houses, violating people's privacy and torturing political prisoners, just don't expect me to care when the families that you've left without homes fight back and actually take a few of your countrymen with them. All is fair in war, and inventing cute little names like terrorist for your enemies does not impress me.

The only reason I can see for Zionists staying in Israel is because of all the religious attachment to Jerusalem, which is why I am perplexed at why self-proclaimed Atheists are supporting you. I can understand why you don't want to leave, Jerusalem is a fine historical golden calf that was stolen from you almost 2,000 years ago.


That's actually a fantastic idea (even though a tiny bit impossible to execute) and a great point you have on the last paragraph, and as a non-zionist atheist myself, I plan to leave this shithole as soon as possible, but still I support the IDF and Israeli policy. I have joined the IDF a year ago, and am serving in the Artillery Corps since.
You guys have the "liberty" to criticize certain events, because you do not encounter them on a daily basis. Your pregnant aunt wasn't injured in a restaurant bombing four and a half years ago, and your best friend's father wasn't killed when a rocket hit a train station workshop in the 2006 war. This is what gave me the motivation to serve in the army and be a combat soldier, not the desire to kill or torture arabs or any of the silly arguments posted here, but the will to protect my family. I don't care for this country a tiny bit, religiously, historically or any other reason, just want to protect my family and loved ones.
Also, most of you are talking about the IDF massacring entire families and stuff like that - as a soldier myself, who've been inside Gaza, protected settlements, arrested suspected terrorists, operated road blocks and protected posts and border crossings, I know how it is like to be inside the horror, to wake up in the morning to the sound of mortars being dropped on your post, or have to deal with palestinians throwing Molotovs and stones at you on a daily basis... Yet I have never killed anyone and I am trying to be as humane as possible in my missions. You tend to hear only of the bad things, of both Israeli and Palestinian sides - with suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, and airforce bombing killing children and protesters being injured on the other hand. You have to remember that the terrorists are a minority within the Palestinian public, and that Israel is a state, so when a terrorist takes a gun, enters a Yeshiva and killes 9 people, it can be easily waved off as an individual act of madness or hate, but when a soldier gets on a D9 and destroyed a terrorist's house as an act of retaliation for killing those 9 civilians, that's an act of evil by the whole state... That's very twisted, unfair and generally wrong point of view.

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Fatal_Metal
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Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:05 pm
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Location: India
PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:38 am 
 

Now pardon me for being somewhat poor with regard to the historical details of this conflict - but weren't the Jews driven out from the Middle East long ago by Muslims? Aren't the Jews genetically quite close to the Syrians and the Palestinians, which makes the latter two sort of, say Islamized Jews?

As per my view, Israel as a state is about as legitimate as the State of America (considering how land was taken by Invaders from the Natives, as pointed out). So a solution that would benefit all parties concerned is if the Israelis and Palestinians shake hands, get over it - and live together as one. The Palestinians would even benefit by the sheer prosperity of the state of Israel.

However, the Arabs would probably die before they let that happen. We all know the rampant anti-Semitism Islam has fostered in the region, and this very anti-Semitism is what provokes the Arab states to get involved in an issue in which they have no part to play. I'm not specifically blaming Islam, hell - even Christianity fostered years of anti-Semitism in Europe which was a predecessor to the Holocaust - but this racism by the Arabs (and the counter-racism by the Israelis) is one to correct.

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Viral
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:22 am 
 

aChapo wrote:
Israel is not only the home of the Jews, there are many other people living in Israel. Christina/Muslim Arabs, Russians, Bedouin, Philippine, Thai, Druz etc., Saying that "The Jews hate Arabs" is absurd. It is true that Israel was founded with by people with Zionist beliefs, but right now, it couldn't be more diverse. Out of the 120 people of the parliament, about 20 are Arabs, While Arabs constitute less then 20% of the population. Show me another country that will have some of its "enemies" in the government...

Yes. I know Jews aren't the only ones living in Israel. But because of the general anti-Arab sentiments shared by many Jews in Israel, Arabs are mostly regarded as subhuman scum and thus, should be treated accordingly. I'm sure you've already heard about this story.


Quote:
Yes, the Hebrew people DID take the land from some tribes before settling in there, but the "white race" took land from the Indians and is not going to give it back (actually, if you look at the Indian reservations, they have poor medical care and the highest percent of alcoholism in America...). Israel (today, not the biblical one) was started by small settlements which grew into a bigger and bigger one, and were given land by the UN, the current borers were determined by wars (in which Israel started defensively). Still no reason to return any land (That's just how the borders for modern day France/Germany/Spain/many other European countries were determined).

Yes. Hence why laws were put in place (prior the Israel's creation) to prevent that type of thing from occurring again. So you can say Israel's very existence violates international law. You keep arguing that there is no such thing as a Palestinian, right? According to historical facts, Zionism, as an ideology, evolved in response to the rise of Europe's nationalism and anti-Semitism in the late 19th century, especially in Tsarist Russia (Pale States), France during the Dreyfus affair, and Germany after WW I. Similarly, Palestinian nationalism evolved in response to the presence of Zionism in Palestine, and most importantly because of the British intention to turn Palestine into a "Jewish National Home," see the Balfour Declaration of 1917 for further details. These central facts were well articulated by David Ben-Gurion (Israel's 1st Prime Minister) and Moshe Sharett (Israel's 1st Foreign Minister) on many occasions.

Quote:
The Palestinians were offered some territory back in return for and armistice. The Israel government had evacuated about 2000 people, and ruined many businesses and homes, but guess what, no peace.

When Palestinians were still being killed afterwards, one could hardly call that peace, no?


Quote:
Yes, there is a small group of very orthodox Jews who do not aknoledge the existence of the state of Israel, but they are far from common (a community of about 100 people who live in seclusion). Yes, it was on the news, but do your research before saying that. There are a lot of people who live in America that burn flags and stuff.

What does flag-burning have to do with that part of my post if I may ask (I don't really see the relation)?
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aChapo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:50 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
Yes. I know Jews aren't the only ones living in Israel. But because of the general anti-Arab sentiments shared by many Jews in Israel, Arabs are mostly regarded as subhuman scum and thus, should be treated accordingly. I'm sure you've already heard about this story.


No.

I know of a lot of Arabs who are doctors, lawyers, engineers. Yes, hate crimes happen, and some people don't like Arabs, but they are not regarded as subhumans. Furthermore, there are many Arabs in the Kneset (kneset = Israeli parliament), if Arabs are subhumans, how come they have representation in the government. Did Jews have a say in the Nazi government?


Quote:
Yes. Hence why laws were put in place (prior the Israel's creation) to prevent that type of thing from occurring again. So you can say Israel's very existence violates international law. You keep arguing that there is no such thing as a Palestinian, right? According to historical facts, Zionism, as an ideology, evolved in response to the rise of Europe's nationalism and anti-Semitism in the late 19th century, especially in Tsarist Russia (Pale States), France during the Dreyfus affair, and Germany after WW I. Similarly, Palestinian nationalism evolved in response to the presence of Zionism in Palestine, and most importantly because of the British intention to turn Palestine into a "Jewish National Home," see the Balfour Declaration of 1917 for further details. These central facts were well articulated by David Ben-Gurion (Israel's 1st Prime Minister) and Moshe Sharett (Israel's 1st Foreign Minister) on many occasions.


I'm am saying that Israel got its land just lie other countries got their land, thus, they shouldn't give any back.

Zionism is an Ideology. Ideologies are FORMED, according to the environment and conditions. "Palestinians" are an ethnicity, something that forms after people with similar genetic make up live together for hundreds of years and develop some sort of common culture. Your "Palestinian" ethnicity was formed in 1967. Yes, Palestinian nationalism is a somewhat legitimate claim, but Palestinian people isn't.




Quote:
hat does flag-burning have to do with that part of my post if I may ask (I don't really see the relation)?


You mentioned a minority of Jews that do not support the state of Israel. I mentioned a minority of Americans who do not suport the United States.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:01 pm 
 

aChapo wrote:
I'm am saying that Israel got its land just lie other countries got their land, thus, they shouldn't give any back.

Hence why those laws were created, but I guess Zionists have no regard for international law.

Quote:
Zionism is an Ideology. Ideologies are FORMED, according to the environment and conditions. "Palestinians" are an ethnicity, something that forms after people with similar genetic make up live together for hundreds of years and develop some sort of common culture. Your "Palestinian" ethnicity was formed in 1967. Yes, Palestinian nationalism is a somewhat legitimate claim, but Palestinian people isn't.

That still isn't an excuse to take back what hasn't been yours for 2000 years.
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hells_unicorn
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:26 pm 
 

SCMugen wrote:
hells_unicorn wrote:
Well, speaking hypothetically, given how much support you have in America, particularly the Bible Belt and the Northeast, I'm sure a state like New York or Iowa would love to have you. And considering how much money AIPAC has, you'd be able to charter enough flights and cruise ships or whatever to get it done. Heck, with America's federal government support of your nation, some might even get to ride on a giant Air Craft Carrier with a full fleet of destroyers as an escort if you wanted.

I don't think this will ever happen because of how stubborn people get when they've lived on land for decades despite how they acquired it. So by all means keep bulldozing houses, violating people's privacy and torturing political prisoners, just don't expect me to care when the families that you've left without homes fight back and actually take a few of your countrymen with them. All is fair in war, and inventing cute little names like terrorist for your enemies does not impress me.

The only reason I can see for Zionists staying in Israel is because of all the religious attachment to Jerusalem, which is why I am perplexed at why self-proclaimed Atheists are supporting you. I can understand why you don't want to leave, Jerusalem is a fine historical golden calf that was stolen from you almost 2,000 years ago.


That's actually a fantastic idea (even though a tiny bit impossible to execute) and a great point you have on the last paragraph, and as a non-zionist atheist myself, I plan to leave this shithole as soon as possible, but still I support the IDF and Israeli policy. I have joined the IDF a year ago, and am serving in the Artillery Corps since.
You guys have the "liberty" to criticize certain events, because you do not encounter them on a daily basis. Your pregnant aunt wasn't injured in a restaurant bombing four and a half years ago, and your best friend's father wasn't killed when a rocket hit a train station workshop in the 2006 war. This is what gave me the motivation to serve in the army and be a combat soldier, not the desire to kill or torture arabs or any of the silly arguments posted here, but the will to protect my family. I don't care for this country a tiny bit, religiously, historically or any other reason, just want to protect my family and loved ones.
Also, most of you are talking about the IDF massacring entire families and stuff like that - as a soldier myself, who've been inside Gaza, protected settlements, arrested suspected terrorists, operated road blocks and protected posts and border crossings, I know how it is like to be inside the horror, to wake up in the morning to the sound of mortars being dropped on your post, or have to deal with palestinians throwing Molotovs and stones at you on a daily basis... Yet I have never killed anyone and I am trying to be as humane as possible in my missions. You tend to hear only of the bad things, of both Israeli and Palestinian sides - with suicide bombings and terrorist attacks, and airforce bombing killing children and protesters being injured on the other hand. You have to remember that the terrorists are a minority within the Palestinian public, and that Israel is a state, so when a terrorist takes a gun, enters a Yeshiva and killes 9 people, it can be easily waved off as an individual act of madness or hate, but when a soldier gets on a D9 and destroyed a terrorist's house as an act of retaliation for killing those 9 civilians, that's an act of evil by the whole state... That's very twisted, unfair and generally wrong point of view.


Thank you for answering my question, and I would like to state that I'm not fully sympathetic to either side, though a year or two ago I was a 100% pro-Israel thinker. The IDF follows orders, like any other military organization, and at this current time you will find me equally as critical of American soldiers utilizing questionable tactics in Iraq.

I should probably state for sake of further clarification that my biggest complaint about Israel is their political leadership, both the Likud and Labor Parties and a few others. I don't consider myself anti-Semitic, but I am more in line with anti-Zionist thought.

Since you speak on personal, first hand experience I will yield to your opinion on the general conduct of the IDF, especially considering your opinion on the religious/historical nature of the land you are currently residing in. But I will still reserve the right to criticize the policy of your government, ergo your political leaders, and also the Mossad.

P.S. - If you are coming to America and you have the money and are tired of city life, up state New York would probably be the best place to go. Granted, you could go to Alabama or Arkansas and be well received.
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aChapo
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:04 pm 
 

Viral wrote:
aChapo wrote:
I'm am saying that Israel got its land just lie other countries got their land, thus, they shouldn't give any back.

Hence why those laws were created, but I guess Zionists have no regard for international law.

Quote:
Zionism is an Ideology. Ideologies are FORMED, according to the environment and conditions. "Palestinians" are an ethnicity, something that forms after people with similar genetic make up live together for hundreds of years and develop some sort of common culture. Your "Palestinian" ethnicity was formed in 1967. Yes, Palestinian nationalism is a somewhat legitimate claim, but Palestinian people isn't.

That still isn't an excuse to take back what hasn't been yours for 2000 years.


Israel wasn't Arab. It was Turkish, then British, and then they left it for the Jews. It's not like Jews from Europe just invaded. The UN divided the land (international law, right?), but then the Arabs wanted more, so they invaded, and during the invasion they LOST some lands. There were Jews in Israel before the state of Israel was "official", who says its not their then?
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caspian
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:24 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
A. According to my study of the Old Testament, the Hebrews kicked someone out of the land that became Israel before settling there who the Palestinians are most likely descended from. Now if you wish to state that the Jews have a right to return there and rule because of what the Jewish faith decrees, I will remind you that the exile the Israelites are under is still in effect, unless you wish to claim like John Hagee and a couple of other wack-job Evangelists that God is calling you back there to meet with the Messiah.


Not entirely. I see you're basing your assumption off Judges and Joshua? While that's valid, you forget that the patriarchs (abe/issac/joe/etc) lived in Israel, had a huge amount of kids and then had to move to Egypt during a famine of some sort (I'm sure you know the story). I would say that if we were going solely off Jewish custom and their history then it would be "their land".
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greysnow
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:05 am 
 

I looked up some of the Genesis verses that pertain to Abram/Abraham being given the land of Canaan by God and some of the verses that mention an earlier population.

Gen. 12, 6-7 wrote:
6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem, unto the plain of Moreh. And the Canaanite was then in the land. 7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.


Gen. 13, 7 wrote:
7 And there was a strife between the herdmen of Abram's cattle and the herdmen of Lot's cattle: and the Canaanite and the Perizzite dwelled then in the land.


Then the whole of chapter 14 is about how Abram's household gets involved in a conflict between other tribes that lived in Canaan. After that, chapter 15 has some very interesting verses:

Gen. 15, 13-14/18-20 wrote:
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not their's, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; 14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

(Bold sections are bolded by me.)

It appears that Abram was not given an empty land to dwell in, but a well-inhabited territory (extending to the Euphrates!) to dominate after generations of struggle and occasional servitude to more powerful neighbors. In effect, these verses say: "I give you this land to conquer." I think it would be doubtful to justify Israel's claim to its territory on the basis of these verses, at least according to modern moral standards, though I'm fairly certain that these verses were put in exactly because they were thought to provide a justification for the taking of Canaan by the Hebrews. In any case, I think it's kind of hard to prove your claim to a land on the basis of your holy book against an opponent who doesn't share the same holy book. That would be like me laying claim to another person's house on the basis of a deed that I cooked up myself and that they neither saw nor signed.

The fact that the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews lived in what is now again Israel for an undisputed one thousand-and-some years does not automatically make their modern claim valid either. That would be like the Finns claiming the Ural and the upper Volga region, the English demanding a piece of Schleswig-Holstein, or the Lenape wanting Manhattan back. History has a way of discontinuity of ethnic settlement structure, and in my opinion current possession cannot be claimed on -- discontinued -- past possession because this would invalidate the more recent claims of the people currently inhabiting the land in question.

By the same token, arguments of former settlement cannot be raised by the Palestinians any more. To give them back the entire territory of Israel would mean dispossessing the Israelis who as of now have settled in Israel for generations and know no other home.

Since in my opinion both the religious argument and the argument of former possession do not suffice to justify either Israel's nor the Palestinians' claim to the territory of Israel, the only argument that remains is current possession. I don't want to argue the principle of "might makes right" here, which I abhor (not to mention the fact that some of Israel's territory was actually bought from the Arabs by the Zionist pioneers), but the principle of avoiding new hardship, which would arise if the Palestinians' claims were enforced without consideration of current circumstances. Never mind who owned what when. Our foremost interest should be to consider the needs of the people who are alive now, opposed to which decades-, centuries- or millennia-old more or less shaky claims, on the basis of whatever, don't deserve the same respect by far.
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caspian
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:25 am 
 

Excellent post, Greysnow. I would pretty much agree with your entire post (and it seems that I need to brush up on my theology, too).
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greysnow
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:38 am 
 

Thank you. :)
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