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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 4:53 pm 
 

PriestofSadWings wrote:
Um, Count? The IDF does not officially have a policy of "an eye for an eye", in most respects.

Straight off Wikipedia,

IDF Code of Conduct wrote:
1. Military action can only be taken against military targets.
2. The use of force must be proportional.
3. Soldiers may only use weaponry they were issued by the IDF.
4. Anyone who surrenders cannot be attacked.
5. Only those who are properly trained can interrogate prisoners.
6. Soldiers must accord dignity and respect to the Palestinian population and those arrested.
7. Soldiers must give appropriate medical care, when conditions allow, to oneself and one's enemy.
8. Pillaging is absolutely and totally illegal.
9. Soldiers must show proper respect for religious and cultural sites and artifacts.
10. Soldiers must protect international aid workers, including their property and vehicles.
11. Soldiers must report all violations of this code.


If I meant its an official policy of the nation then I apologize it is not what I meant. Of course they have to maintain a certain posture that they are trying to follow international laws. However honestly when they bomb a heavily civilian based area just to kill a handful of terrorist and in the process take out several dozen innocent people what do you really think is going on? Sure it is to take out those who would do harm to the nation but as demonstrated in past events it is also revenge for the attack in the first place.

Coupled with the cases where they did such things as use kids as shields and even tie one to the hood of a car to avoid protesters throwing rocks I would say they use some pretty undesirable methods. At least to most people.

You can link the official policy all you want but it happens and it will continue to happen, If you think it will not you are naive.


anathema81 wrote:
I'm must disagree with you, priest

Yes... this is a right code. I served in IDF so I know it.

But, there is a huge but.... There is slight difference between what expected from soldiers behaviour from this current moral code and between reality. In reality you can often see the untreatment and discrimination of simple Palestinian workers. In this reality isn't surprising that soldiers in the various check points are often develop sadistic hate to the local population.

Unfortunaly I'm in minority on this subject in my country


I am pretty sure he was just trying to state it is not an "official" policy of the country. Which may be true but all the same it happens just as if it was an official policy.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:35 am 
 

intothevoid wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
anathema81 wrote:
Mors

I have an question for you

If I understand right, you believe that every nation is have a right to independence.



Yes, I believe that every nation has the right to be independent. And that's exactly why I want all states to be abolished.

But of course, let petty wars over territory begin, for no nation should have a state.
States reduce the numbers of excuses a nation has to attack another state/nation.


War over territories have to do with nationalism and statism and as thus I'm opposed to them. I still haven't understood what you meant though.

The_Count wrote:
but I can honestly say that it does not bother me what they are doing to the Palestinians. Israel uses many tactics I would love seeing incorporated into the war on terror.


Now I understand your title perfectly.
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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:10 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
intothevoid wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
anathema81 wrote:
Mors

I have an question for you

If I understand right, you believe that every nation is have a right to independence.



Yes, I believe that every nation has the right to be independent. And that's exactly why I want all states to be abolished.

But of course, let petty wars over territory begin, for no nation should
have a state.
States reduce the numbers of excuses a nation has to attack another state/nation.


War over territories have to do with nationalism and statism and as thus I'm opposed to them. I still haven't understood what you meant though.

The_Count wrote:
but I can honestly say that it does not bother me what they are doing to the Palestinians. Israel uses many tactics I would love seeing incorporated into the war on terror.


Now I understand your title perfectly.


Say what you will I still stand by what I said, I see no reason we should extend courtesy to an enemy that would show us none. The entire idea of people sitting down and developing rules for war is still laughable to me.

I put it along the same lines of a bully and his victim getting together and discussing the proper method to execute an Indian burn or "outlawing" something like a swirly because that is just to cruel and unusual.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:14 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
I put it along the same lines of a bully and his victim getting together and discussing the proper method to execute an Indian burn or "outlawing" something like a swirly because that is just to cruel and unusual.


The thing is that in this case you're the bullies. And not only with Palestinians but the same with Afghanis, Iraqis, Vietnameses etc.
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Panopticon at Flag Burner, Torch Bearer wrote:
Tonight all flags must burn in place of steeples. Autonomy must return to the hands of the people!


http://www.metalfighters.com/

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon May 12, 2008 12:37 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
The_Count wrote:
I put it along the same lines of a bully and his victim getting together and discussing the proper method to execute an Indian burn or "outlawing" something like a swirly because that is just to cruel and unusual.


The thing is that in this case you're the bullies. And not only with Palestinians but the same with Afghanis, Iraqis, Vietnameses etc.


That is opinionated and a matter of perspective, One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter and all that yeah its fine and dandy. Again as I have said in a previous thread I have nothing against the enemy of the United States and its allies to use what ever measures they see fit to achieve the goals they lay out. At the same time I also believe the United States should be able to use any methods they see fit to achieve our goals.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Prodd
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:15 am
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 5:08 am 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
The thing is that in this case you're the bullies. And not only with Palestinians but the same with Afghanis, Iraqis, Vietnameses etc.


Care to give me some links/references, dude? Would like to read up for personal reasons.
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:15 pm 
 

Prodd wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
The thing is that in this case you're the bullies. And not only with Palestinians but the same with Afghanis, Iraqis, Vietnameses etc.


Care to give me some links/references, dude? Would like to read up for personal reasons.


Sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u0ojymkpnE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GNrAcYhZvQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PIFlXdAgkg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgNInWQI-qU

There are more. Just look at any non-American news source.
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Panopticon at Flag Burner, Torch Bearer wrote:
Tonight all flags must burn in place of steeples. Autonomy must return to the hands of the people!


http://www.metalfighters.com/

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:37 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Prodd wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
The thing is that in this case you're the bullies. And not only with Palestinians but the same with Afghanis, Iraqis, Vietnameses etc.


Care to give me some links/references, dude? Would like to read up for personal reasons.


Sure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u0ojymkpnE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GNrAcYhZvQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PIFlXdAgkg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgNInWQI-qU

There are more. Just look at any non-American news source.



:lol: That second video is golden, OohRah Devil Dogs.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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GuidoVonList
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:48 pm
Posts: 3
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:49 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Wra1th1s wrote:
ANationalAcrobat wrote:
I think the Jews have every right to a state, but why Jerusalem? It was surely one of the stupidest decisions of all time. So much conflict could of been avoided if they'd been given a piece of Europe instead (Germany? Poland?). After all why have a Jewish state in the holy land of Christians, Muslims and Jews? It's beyond ridiculous.


Well it is their 'ancestral home,' besides isn't it even worse if they were to stick around in Europe? I mean it's post-WWII, giving them a piece of Europe would trigger WWIII (well maybe)! Regardless maybe the Jews should not have been given Jerusalem, it should be a separate state. That way everybody would be happy...or not.


Actually I'm not sure giving the Jews a separate state at all was a good idea anymore. But I still think land in Europe would of been a better idea than the middle east.


Yeah because if your people had just been the target of a mass genocide I am sure you would want to stay in that country as well.

Israel is a great ally to the United States, If the shit ever hits the fan with Iran you will be glad that they are there to.


Is America's support of Israel worth a third World War? Everyone knows America's doing Israel's dirty work in Iraq and that the Zionists, who control the US government,want Iran destroyed.

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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:38 pm 
 

GuidoVonList wrote:
Is America's support of Israel worth a third World War? Everyone knows America's doing Israel's dirty work in Iraq and that the Zionists, who control the US government,want Iran destroyed.


"Everyone knows" is not an argument.

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PriestofSadWings
Bishop of Dark Spaces

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 653
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2008 9:14 pm 
 

Osmium wrote:
GuidoVonList wrote:
Is America's support of Israel worth a third World War? Everyone knows America's doing Israel's dirty work in Iraq and that the Zionists, who control the US government,want Iran destroyed.


"Everyone knows" is not an argument.


Especially since I didn't know either of those things. I was under the impression that America was doing Halliburton's dirty work in Iraq.

Furthermore, Bush got 25% of the Jewish vote in 2004.

And furthermore, as a Zionist myself, I don't want Iran destroyed. I would much rather see all sides in the fight - Iran, Israel, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. - work out a peaceful solution. If that solution involves giving Palestinians their own state and returning to the 1967 borders, so be it. I think that many Israelis feel that way, too.
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SCMugen
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:02 pm
Posts: 165
Location: Israel
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 3:33 am 
 

I personally don't fucking care how it will happen. I just want it to be done already, cause I'm sick and tired of all this. Let it be a third world war, or a return to 1967 borders and Palestinian state, I just don't care anymore.

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GuidoVonList
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:48 pm
Posts: 3
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:38 am 
 

Osmium wrote:
GuidoVonList wrote:
Is America's support of Israel worth a third World War? Everyone knows America's doing Israel's dirty work in Iraq and that the Zionists, who control the US government,want Iran destroyed.


"Everyone knows" is not an argument.


Ok, what's you theory on the war in Iraq and the possible one with Iran? The WMD or the oil theroy?

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:54 pm 
 

GuidoVonList wrote:
Osmium wrote:
GuidoVonList wrote:
Is America's support of Israel worth a third World War? Everyone knows America's doing Israel's dirty work in Iraq and that the Zionists, who control the US government,want Iran destroyed.


"Everyone knows" is not an argument.


Ok, what's you theory on the war in Iraq and the possible one with Iran? The WMD or the oil theroy?


We are getting a bit off topic here and after I see the line of "Zionists who control the US government" I think I already have my answer but, Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:30 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?


Like it or not it wasn't an outside job either. The "bad" terrorists were trained by Osama. Osama fought in the Soviet War In Afghanistan in the sides of the USA. Plus, the Pentagon strike is way too suspicious. The aeroplane just cannot disappear after the crush.
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Panopticon at Flag Burner, Torch Bearer wrote:
Tonight all flags must burn in place of steeples. Autonomy must return to the hands of the people!


http://www.metalfighters.com/

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GuidoVonList
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:48 pm
Posts: 3
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:42 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
GuidoVonList wrote:
Osmium wrote:
GuidoVonList wrote:
Is America's support of Israel worth a third World War? Everyone knows America's doing Israel's dirty work in Iraq and that the Zionists, who control the US government,want Iran destroyed.


"Everyone knows" is not an argument.


Ok, what's you theory on the war in Iraq and the possible one with Iran? The WMD or the oil theroy?


We are getting a bit off topic here and after I see the line of "Zionists who control the US government" I think I already have my answer but, Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?


No, I think America was attacked because of their support of Israel.

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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:01 pm 
 

GuidoVonList wrote:
Ok, what's you theory on the war in Iraq and the possible one with Iran? The WMD or the oil theroy?


Even if I have no idea whatsoever why we attacked Iraq, "everyone knows" is still not an argument. You can't blather out some stupid conspiracy theory (regardless of how popular it would be on Stormfront) and expect to be taken seriously.

I can only speculate on the psychology of those who decided that we needed to invade. They probably thought that eliminating a problematic spot in the middle east and replacing it with a US-friendly democracy would be in their interest. If the invasion, pacification, and rebuilding of Iraq had gone successfully, nobody would have seriously questioned the original WMD accusations. They guessed wrong.


Last edited by Osmium on Sat May 17, 2008 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Noobbot
Mors_Gloria + Thesaurus

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 426
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:11 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?


Like it or not it wasn't an outside job either. The "bad" terrorists were trained by Osama. Osama fought in the Soviet War In Afghanistan in the sides of the USA. Plus, the Pentagon strike is way too suspicious. The aeroplane just cannot disappear after the crush.


Neither the official story, nor the conspiracy theories that I've heard, are capable of accurately describing what occurred. An exercise happened to be scheduled for the same day, arbitrarilly, happened to tie up NORAD resources, and also happened to concern an oddly similar event - that is, hijackings with planes potentially being crashed into multiple high-profile targets, and those targets being the White House, Capitol building, World Trade Centers, the Pentagon, and Empire State building? It's surprising a Virginia field isn't included. Secondly, a 707 (correct this if not) disintegrated upon impact in said Virginia field, with not a trace but a smoldering crater? That's odd, because a space shuttle detonated in the upper atmosphere with much more potent fuel, and yet they've recovered most of the debris. I understand that aircraft aluminum is a much weaker material than that used to construct the space shuttles, but there's no way it would vaporize. It's also odd that no real debris was left over after the Pentagon was struck. If someone could provide logical reasons those things would occur, that'd be great - however, I cannot find any rational explanation for those that would conform to the official explanation.

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:56 pm 
 

Noobbot wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?


Like it or not it wasn't an outside job either. The "bad" terrorists were trained by Osama. Osama fought in the Soviet War In Afghanistan in the sides of the USA. Plus, the Pentagon strike is way too suspicious. The aeroplane just cannot disappear after the crush.


Neither the official story, nor the conspiracy theories that I've heard, are capable of accurately describing what occurred. An exercise happened to be scheduled for the same day, arbitrarilly, happened to tie up NORAD resources, and also happened to concern an oddly similar event - that is, hijackings with planes potentially being crashed into multiple high-profile targets, and those targets being the White House, Capitol building, World Trade Centers, the Pentagon, and Empire State building? It's surprising a Virginia field isn't included. Secondly, a 707 (correct this if not) disintegrated upon impact in said Virginia field, with not a trace but a smoldering crater? That's odd, because a space shuttle detonated in the upper atmosphere with much more potent fuel, and yet they've recovered most of the debris. I understand that aircraft aluminum is a much weaker material than that used to construct the space shuttles, but there's no way it would vaporize. It's also odd that no real debris was left over after the Pentagon was struck. If someone could provide logical reasons those things would occur, that'd be great - however, I cannot find any rational explanation for those that would conform to the official explanation.


Please lets not get off topic in this thread on 9/11 loose change conspiracy bullshit and what not.

This thread is to discuss Israel and its right to exist as we know it today.


Anyways back on topic: I do not agree with what was mentioned earlier about a return to the 1967 borders. I am a firm believer in this case it would be a good example of if you give a mouse a cookie hes gonna want a glass of milk.
Only in this case it will be if you give the rag heads the land back, you are going to get new spawning points for more rocket attacks on Israeli settlements.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9819
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:43 pm 
 

There's already a thread about 9/11 conspiracy theories, take it there.

As for the mouse and cookie analogy, I'm afraid I agree with it... it doesn't look like such concessions would be sufficient to people who have stated many times that they want the complete annihilation of Israel. There will only be peace there when these people decide they love their children more than they hate Israel.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun May 18, 2008 7:58 am 
 

Noobbot wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Do you believe 9/11 was an inside job?


Like it or not it wasn't an outside job either. The "bad" terrorists were trained by Osama. Osama fought in the Soviet War In Afghanistan in the sides of the USA. Plus, the Pentagon strike is way too suspicious. The aeroplane just cannot disappear after the crush.


Neither the official story, nor the conspiracy theories that I've heard, are capable of accurately describing what occurred.


I agree completely with it. Official stories are not better than conspiracy theories. But anyway, let's leave it here.
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Demogoron
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:52 pm
Posts: 78
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 1:41 am 
 

Quote:
as a Zionist myself


You understand that right off the bat anything you say about this would have to be overlooked. Why wouldn't you defend any of Israel's "lies" if you ARE a Zionist? I'm not calling you a liar, but understand that after saying that, everything you say will be judged.
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DBettino
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 2151
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:15 pm 
 

Only the Jews are allowed to be nationalistic.

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sarcotalica
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:10 pm
Posts: 63
Location: Israel
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:12 am 
 

Being Israeli myself I support Isreals actions wholly (sp?) I have never heard of the delibarte (sp?) killing of palastanian civilians/ on the other hand some time ago a couple terrorists broke a part of the fence separating Gaza and Israel and tryed to kidnap two workers that worked in a station that pumped oil to gaza once they understood that they coulden't kidnapp them with the army on the way and all that they killed the two men let me repeat myself these two men worked in a station which pumped oil to gaza! make of this what you will but I see don't have much sympathy to these terrorist "freedom fighters"

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kronos116
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:55 pm
Posts: 179
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:19 pm 
 

DBettino wrote:
Only the Jews are allowed to be nationalistic.


I have to agree that this is the case. Israeli pride and Jewish pride go hand in hand, yet German pride and white pride do not. This only gives Israel an excuse for blatant racism against Arabs; "We have been persecuted for thousands of years! And the Holocaust, don't forget that! We are just making sure it doesn't happen again!". Never mind if this means doing the modern version of what the Nazis did. It's silly, it's wrong, it's hypocritical, and Western nations let Israel get away with it.

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greysnow
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:01 am
Posts: 378
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:54 pm 
 

kronos116 wrote:
Israeli pride and Jewish pride go hand in hand, yet German pride and white pride do not.

They used to. And if you mean NS by German pride, it hated a lot more people than only non-whites.

kronos116 wrote:
Never mind if this means doing the modern version of what the Nazis did. It's silly, it's wrong, it's hypocritical, and Western nations let Israel get away with it.

When will you people stop this? What Israel is doing can in no way be compared to the Holocaust, neither in intention, in scale, nor in method.
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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:10 pm 
 

kronos116 wrote:
Never mind if this means doing the modern version of what the Nazis did. It's silly, it's wrong, it's hypocritical, and Western nations let Israel get away with it.


I also would like you to expand on this a bit more, Please enlighten us all on this secret genocide that has been said to be going on right now by Israeli hands.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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PriestofSadWings
Bishop of Dark Spaces

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:29 pm
Posts: 653
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:48 pm 
 

Demogoron wrote:
Quote:
as a Zionist myself


You understand that right off the bat anything you say about this would have to be overlooked. Why wouldn't you defend any of Israel's "lies" if you ARE a Zionist? I'm not calling you a liar, but understand that after saying that, everything you say will be judged.


*sigh* All I meant by that is that I support Israel, and that I think that peace would be the best thing for it.
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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:57 am 
 

PriestofSadWings wrote:
*sigh* All I meant by that is that I support Israel, and that I think that peace would be the best thing for it.


I also support Israel. It is an intellectual and academic oasis amidst a sea of stagnation. I also have respect for the notion of the Israeli state as a homeland for the Jews as a preventative measure against another Holocaust. I sympathize for Palestinians, and would definitely support a two-state proposal of sorts (since it is the only realistic solution for long-term peace). I also think it is foolish and incorrect for Israel to continue creating and expanding new settlements.

That said, Israel's leaders today are incompetent and petty fools--a large percentage of whom are being investigated for corruption--so any serious attempts at peacemaking will have to wait until the election of the American president, and likely a new Israeli government. The fact that Palestinian leadership and territory is splintered is unfortunate because it makes it difficult for Israeli and Palestinian moderates to establish any kind of meaningful dialog.

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NeglectedField
Onwards to Camulodunum!

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:19 am
Posts: 1390
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:50 pm 
 

greysnow wrote:
When will you people stop this? What Israel is doing can in no way be compared to the Holocaust, neither in intention, in scale, nor in method.


Despite the fact that I hate it when people associate questioning the Israeli state with Nazism, comparing Israel itself to Nazi Germany annoys me too. A mate of mine actually said "yeah man Israel are the new Nazis, like some girl got ran over by a tank!" I hate reductio ad Hitlerum arguments on both sides, basically.

I support the Jewish ethnonationalist drive insofar as it respects others, not that I find myself believing in any conspiracy theories that suggest that it is trying to undermine those of other ethnicities (just out of lack of clear evidence). I have to say though, I know more Israelis so on an emotional level I'm not really opposed to them particularly.
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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:53 pm 
 

NeglectedField wrote:
A mate of mine actually said "yeah man Israel are the new Nazis, like some girl got ran over by a tank!"


I assume he was talking about Rachel Corrie? It was a bulldozer not a tank but that just shows even more peoples ignorance on the issue.

All the same I am not really going to lose sleep that she was bulldozed. Flag burning hippies who support Palestinian terrorist do not really float my boat.
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Marinos
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:00 am
Posts: 48
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:09 am 
 

Each race should strive for there own self-governing nation as a means of both cultural and racial protection. If the jew's want there own country, then thats their business, but they need to do it by themselves without our "help".

Zionism taking advantage of gullible Christian morons and creating pro-isralie lobby's in many western countries only involves us in things we should be avoiding. Let the jew's deal with Arabs on their own, and let us worry about our own problems back home.

There would be no Bali bombers, no Iraqi "terrorists", no WTC attack, if we hadn't done the Zionists dirty work for them.

We must cut all political ties with israel and the middle east. It's not our war, we don't belong there. We have our own people to worry about.

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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:59 pm 
 

Our "problems at home" involve arabic nations in the Middle East which feed our economy's thirst for oil. Israel is a strategic bastion which the United States to maintain its sphere of influence in the ME.

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Marinos
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:00 am
Posts: 48
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:00 pm 
 

Osmium wrote:
Our "problems at home" involve arabic nations in the Middle East which feed our economy's thirst for oil. Israel is a strategic bastion which the United States to maintain its sphere of influence in the ME.


So in order to maintain the flow of oil from the Midlde East, we need to support a nation which is deeply despised by most middle eastern nations? What kind of logic is this?

How exactly does supporting Israel secure more oil for the united states? Lets go back the 1970's, when the American economy was crippled overnight, because they SUPPORTED ISRAEL, and was forced into a trade embargo by Saudi Arabia and friends.

Supporting Israel, in no way shape or form feeds our thirst for oil, it has only been shown to do the opposite.

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SatanIsMyStewardess
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Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:10 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:04 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Zeg wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Poor Palestinians die because of the idiocy of the NSDAP.


Ah, they don't die because of the genocide that Israel commits against them. Thanks for info, I didn't know that the ones to blame for what is happening are not the murderers who are killing those people everyday but a political party who existed 70 years ago.


I didn't said that. The fucking Israeli state kills Palestinians. I just blame the NSDAP for the creation of this state.


I don't see this as being a tenable argument. Yes, the Shoah Business has helped to provide Israel some political cover over the years, but the fundamental conditions that led to the creation of the Jewish state (a critical mass of Jews IN PALESTINE combined with Britain's retreat from empire - keep in mind that 1947/48 also saw the emergence of two independent states on the Indian subcontinent) had NOTHING to do with the policies of the NSDAP.

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aChapo
Token Jew

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Posts: 697
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:39 am 
 

I usually don't post in these threads, but I had to comment here.


The situation in Israel is the result of MANY MANY MANY events, not just a single occurrence that happened, or a single war.

Historically, the Jewish population can claim roots in Israel through the Kingdom of Israel, which existed between the 930s BC and 720s BC, after which the first diaspora came (with the help of the Assyrians...), though a large portion of Jews stayed in what we call Israel today. Fast forward a few hundred years, and we have the Romans in approximately 70 BC, and the second diaspora, which lasted until 1947/8.

Muslims, on the other hand, can claim the land the we know as Israel with the capture of Jerusalem by the Muslims in 638 (after Muhammad had died...) , and even then, the majority Muslims in Israel is the result of the conquests of the Ottoman empire.

So one could see that if one would look at the conflict through a historical point of view only (who was there first), the Jews will "win", so to speak.



Religion wise
For the Jewish people, Jerusalem, according to the bible, is the center of the Jewish religion, where god commanded the Hebrew people to build a temple for worship, and where the Hebrew kings (Saul, David, Solomon, etc) had ruled for decades. The western wall, in Jerusalem, is considered by archaeologists as the last remains of the holy temple, which was built in approximately 940 BC, long before Islam was ever conceived.

For Muslims, Jerusalem is important because of the Al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the rock, which were built 705 AD, and 790 AD, as regular places of worship (like there are synagogues in Iran and America). Nevertheless, the legend goes, that Muhammad had woken up from a dream one night, and traveled to the farthest mosque in the Islamic empire which is identified today as the AL-Aqsa mosque by the Muslim world (yet the mosque was built about 40 years after Muhammad's death. Furthermore, Muhammad died in Medina. So basically, the only claims for Israel that Islam can have religion wise, are the fact that their profit had visited Jerusalem and that he went up to the sky and had a conversation with the prophets of the 3 religions.


Politically, the land we call Israel was under Egyptian rule between 1831 and 1841 and under Ottoman rule between 1841 and 1917, meaning that all the people leaving there were considered Egyptians or Turks, not Palestinians. Furthermore, Palestine is not a name of a race, nation or ethnicity, it is the collective name given by the Europeans to the LAND we call Israel, not the Muslims who lived there. This means the when one says that "The Palestinians deserve the land", they actually mean that the people who lived in Israel before 1948 are entitled for the land, including the Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druz and beduhi people who live/d there.
Furthermore, "With the establishment of Israel, the remaining lands were divided amongst Egypt, Syria and Jordan. The Arab governments at this point refused to set up a State of Palestine" (Wikipedia). Meaning that even the countries that are now strong supporters of a Palestinian nation, did not care for it "back in the day". The Palestinian country as we know it, was declared by the PLO in 1988, though they were still Egyptian/Syrian owned. During the six day war (During which Israel was ATTACKED by Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Egypt) Israel had conquered the west bank, which was controlled by JORDAN (NOT PALESTINE) and the Gaza strip which was cotrolled by EGYPT (NOT PALESTINE). So basically, all of there were no Palestinian people in the territory until 1988, and those were actually Jordanians and Egyptians.

I hope this made sense, and if you read this, you know my position about the subject.

My sources are:
Wikipedia
Former knowledge from School (American, not biased by the "Zionist Scum")
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Osgilliath
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:38 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:50 pm 
 

More Israelis are killed in car accidents than in actual terrorist attacks, and this is off-handedly admitted by many Jewish publications / (2). To say that any act of Palestinian aggression justifies Israeli retribution is ridiculous; one only needs to compare their technology. Many have seen it, but the Israeli developed "corner shot" trumps home made dirty bombs and 60 year old Russian weapons.
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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:01 am 
 

Osgilliath wrote:
More Israelis are killed in car accidents than in actual terrorist attacks, and this is off-handedly admitted by many Jewish publications / (2). To say that any act of Palestinian aggression justifies Israeli retribution is ridiculous; one only needs to compare their technology. Many have seen it, but the Israeli developed "corner shot" trumps home made dirty bombs and 60 year old Russian weapons.


I would say the current way things are run over there works well and is in no need of change. I am glad they use 60 year old weapons and home made bombs, With that outdated equipment it greatly reduces Israeli causalities when the IDF rolls in to light those bastards up.

An Eye For An Eye.
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I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9819
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:01 pm 
 

Osgilliath wrote:
More Israelis are killed in car accidents than in actual terrorist attacks, and this is off-handedly admitted by many Jewish publications / (2). To say that any act of Palestinian aggression justifies Israeli retribution is ridiculous; one only needs to compare their technology. Many have seen it, but the Israeli developed "corner shot" trumps home made dirty bombs and 60 year old Russian weapons.


More Americans die in car accidents than by gang murder; does this mean there harsh measures taken against gang members and leaders would be "unjustified"?

I also fail to see why Israel's superior technology should prevent them from retribution, so long as this retribution is against insurgents and not innocent by-standers (which of course does happen and is unfortunate but does not invalidate the very concept of retribution). If the antelope is dumb enough to attack the lion, it shouldn't protest at the consequences.

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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:46 pm 
 

Osgilliath wrote:
More Israelis are killed in car accidents than in actual terrorist attacks, and this is off-handedly admitted by many Jewish publications / (2). To say that any act of Palestinian aggression justifies Israeli retribution is ridiculous; one only needs to compare their technology. Many have seen it, but the Israeli developed "corner shot" trumps home made dirty bombs and 60 year old Russian weapons.


Regardless of the actual number of casualties, the constant threat of bombardment severely depresses morale and economic investment. Fewer people died as a result of all American school shootings combined than car accidents in a single year, but the threat of having one's kids be gunned down in a place where they are supposed to be safe is still going to seriously disrupt education around the whole nation.

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