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paskogen
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:35 am
Posts: 59
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:51 pm 
 

Jesus tap-dancing Christ, I just saw "Expelled," Ben Stein's documentary detailing the 'persecution' of the intelligent design argument in the global scientific community.

A few gems:

1) A cartoon featuring Dawkins ["Come on, Mother Nature, work your magic!"] attempting to best 250 slot machines in a row (representing the approximately 250 proteins necessary for a self sufficient molecule), subsequently losing and pouting amidst the giggles of the intended audience.

2) An extensive argument against Darwinism on the basis that belief in such things inevitably leads to Nazi eugenics (includes a guided tour of the Hadamar Clinic!).

3) A delightful wrap-up montage of the Berlin Wall coming down as a handful of I.D. supporting science figures wax inspirational about one day being able to cross over from the metaphorical East Germany of scientific ostracism into the self-contained elite circle of closed-minded, anti-inquiry scientists who subscribe to the questionable consensus of natural selection...and what a glorious day it shall be.


...Hallelujah!
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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:58 pm 
 

I encourage no-one to see this train-wreck unless you can download it.

ExpelledExposed is a collection of links, created by the National Center for Science Education, that refute the non-sense presented in that film.

Expelled is an utter caricature of actual argumentation.

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alexanderthegreat
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:34 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:18 pm 
 

Would it kill people to make nice unbiased feature-length documentaries?

I was going to watch this, as in my ignorance I thought for ONCE we were going to have a film that actually had a look at the state of science today and be a reasonable discussion on evolution and intelligent design in general, and maybe a look at the relationship between science and religion without being a soapbox for either side. Obviously it was too much to ask, and I should've known better after Farenheit 9/11 and the like.

:annoyed:
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incarcerated_demon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 195
PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:21 am 
 

alexanderthegreat wrote:
...I thought for ONCE we were going to have a film that actually had a look at the state of science today and be a reasonable discussion on evolution and intelligent design in general, and maybe a look at the relationship between science and religion without being a soapbox for either side...


You ARE talking about the ID crowd here y'know... Reasonable and unbiased aren't really in the vocabulary.

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AnimalBones
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Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:03 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:46 am 
 

I can understand why people get all worked up but remove the "Intelligent" (a subtext for God in ID) and you do have some interesting, albeit controversial, cosmological arguments. Barrow and Tiplers 'Strong Anthropic Principle' states that the Universe must have parameters such that life can exist and no less than John Wheeler (sadly now RIP) proposed the 'Participatory Anthropic Principle' whereby observation brings the universe into existence (he argues this can be inferred from quantum mechanics and given that he is one of the absolute giants of 20th century physics I won't try to disagree). These are, of course, theories and currently untestable and very different from ID but unfortunately can be tarred with the same brush.

As a biologist this is one of my favourite papers of all time

Paper

Essentially the paper provides an argument based on quantum mechanics for how beneficial mutants can arise in a non-random fashion. Roger Penrose has proposed a similar argument for the acquisition of consciousness. All very controversial but all involve a clear 'design' principle.

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The_Beast_in_Black
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:32 am 
 

It's just another crappy propaganda video. Nothing to get worked up about.
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Foxx
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:56 am 
 

I'll probably end up checking it out for shits and giggles. It isn't really to be taken seriously, I think, but seeing that I've got some popcorn left over anyway...

AnimalBones wrote:
...


This, however, seems very interesting. My knowledge of physics and biology isn't super expansive but I'll read that shortly regardless.

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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:34 pm 
 

Wait a minute, wait a minute...

Ben Stein believes in Intelligent Design?? And he made a documentary film about it?


This isn't the same Ben Stein from Win Ben Stein's Money, is it? I mean, that guy was so fucking smart!
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thomash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:15 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
Wait a minute, wait a minute...

Ben Stein believes in Intelligent Design?? And he made a documentary film about it?


This isn't the same Ben Stein from Win Ben Stein's Money, is it? I mean, that guy was so fucking smart!

Yup. Depressing, isn't it?

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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

thomash wrote:
Resident_Hazard wrote:
Wait a minute, wait a minute...

Ben Stein believes in Intelligent Design?? And he made a documentary film about it?


This isn't the same Ben Stein from Win Ben Stein's Money, is it? I mean, that guy was so fucking smart!

Yup. Depressing, isn't it?


NO YOU LIE!

WHY DO YOU LIIIEEE!??
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PriestofSadWings
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Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:29 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:30 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
thomash wrote:
Resident_Hazard wrote:
Wait a minute, wait a minute...

Ben Stein believes in Intelligent Design?? And he made a documentary film about it?


This isn't the same Ben Stein from Win Ben Stein's Money, is it? I mean, that guy was so fucking smart!

Yup. Depressing, isn't it?


NO YOU LIE!

WHY DO YOU LIIIEEE!??


Bueller? Bueller?

Yes, it's the same guy. One of the most hilarious things about the movie is that the hardcore religious right loves it, and they don't even realize he's Jewish. *snigger* Which means he doesn't believe in Jesus. *louder snigger* Which means, according to their beliefs, he's going to burn in hell. :lol:

Also, the makers of the movie are being sued for copyright infringement. Check it out.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:43 pm 
 

The funniest thing about Expelled is their sheer dishonesty when it comes to even the few private screenings. See here: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008 ... ck_one.php

How pathetic. :lol:

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Sir_General_Flashman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:01 pm 
 

When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.
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DanFuckingLucas
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:31 pm 
 

I might buy this. Sounds like it'll sit on my shelf between Anchorman and Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo.
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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:46 pm 
 

DanFuckingLucas wrote:
I might buy this. Sounds like it'll sit on my shelf between Anchorman and Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo.

Why did you buy those? :cry:

Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.
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Osmium
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Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:57 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.


"Survival of the fittest" is a popular euphemism for natural selection. Ben Stein is advocating Intelligent Design and mocking evolution, as well as claiming that it was instrumental in the Holocaust. He never defines what Intelligent Design is, and of course not present any evidence. There is no science in this movie; it is a propaganda flick and should be taken roughly as seriously as Michael Moore's trash.

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Scourge441
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Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:38 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:57 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.

Intelligent design=Creatonism, which Ben Stein supports.

Survival of the fittest=Darwinism (in essence), which Expelled is supposedly trying to refute. From the trailer, I got the sense that it wasn't anti-Darwinism per se, but apparently that's not the case.

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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:26 pm 
 

Ok thanks Scourge and Osmium. Now I remember which side I'm on. However, why what's so intelligent about the design of Creationism?
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The_Beast_in_Black
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:32 am 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
Ok thanks Scourge and Osmium. Now I remember which side I'm on. However, why what's so intelligent about the design of Creationism?


The idea is that the earth was designed, by a higher intelligence.

AKA, bullshit.
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alexanderthegreat
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 5:34 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:27 am 
 

incarcerated_demon wrote:
You ARE talking about the ID crowd here y'know... Reasonable and unbiased aren't really in the vocabulary.


When I first heard about Intelligent Design, I thought it was some sort of happy middle-ground between atheistic and theistic views regarding evolution. I didn't think it was going to be basically creationist propaganda masquerading as science.

It makes me very, very sad.
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:44 am 
 

Osmium wrote:
OzzyApu wrote:
Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.


"Survival of the fittest" is a popular euphemism for natural selection. Ben Stein is advocating Intelligent Design and mocking evolution, as well as claiming that it was instrumental in the Holocaust. He never defines what Intelligent Design is, and of course not present any evidence. There is no science in this movie; it is a propaganda flick and should be taken roughly as seriously as Michael Moore's trash.



This is all Michael Moore's fault. Propaganda films are becoming the new trend. I found one in a store that was pertaining to some environmental thing and it was hosted or narrated or otherwise supported by Leonardo DiCaprio.

Modern people are now as easily swayed as the masses in Nazi Germany or the masses in Communist Russia. Just make a film and everybody suddenly thinks it's factual.

Now that's and inconvenient truth...
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DanFuckingLucas
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Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2003 7:30 am
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:51 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
DanFuckingLucas wrote:
I might buy this. Sounds like it'll sit on my shelf between Anchorman and Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo.

Why did you buy those? :cry:

Anyway, I'm really stupid. Intelligent design - survival of the fittest, right? Ben Stein is REFUTING it in this movie? I remember there being a thread on it when this first was announced, but I don't remember what was going on.


Because they're both funny, dude. My DVD shelf is mostly action movies, gangster movies and TV series, with a bit of sports and comedy though not much comedy. I also think that in some 140 DVDs, I've got 4 that are rated lower than a 15. Hence why this drivel belongs between the two - though I rather like Anchorman and so putting them side by side would offend the mighty Ron Burgundy.
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feratu
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:23 pm 
 

I live in Kansas and particularly like following the ID debate. I haven't seen this movie yet, but I read a lot about it.

Anyone interested in the subject should check out Scientific American's fine series of articles about the film and controversy.

http://www.sciam.com/search/index.cfm?q=expelled

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Sir_General_Flashman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:44 pm 
 

What controversy? The only thing controversial about this is that seemingly good people are fooled by religious propaganda like this.
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:03 am 
 

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
What controversy? The only thing controversial about this is that seemingly good people are fooled by religious propaganda like this.

Read the links, maybe. The fact that this movie blames "Darwinism" for the nazis and the Holocaust is pretty offensive and has stirred a lot of shit.

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Lokar
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:12 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:45 pm 
 

PriestofSadWings wrote:
Also, the makers of the movie are being sued for copyright infringement. Check it out.


And the copyright lawsuits don't end just there: Yoko Ono is apparently going to sue their asses to hell for using Imagine on the film's soundtrack without permission.

http://www.reuters.com/article/entertai ... 8220080423
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NeglectedField
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:25 pm 
 

Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.


Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?
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Resident_Hazard
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:50 pm 
 

NeglectedField wrote:
Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.


Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?


Have you been to the American south?
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NeglectedField
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:57 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
NeglectedField wrote:
Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.


Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?


Have you been to the American south?


I did say "parts of". I should say 'bible belt' regions, if that's any better. My post was partially in jest.
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Resident_Hazard
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:23 pm 
 

NeglectedField wrote:
Resident_Hazard wrote:
NeglectedField wrote:
Ahh the good old Holocaust strawman. It's like Francis Galton never existed.

It's sad that people don't like any elements of science that doesn't put humans, or life in general, on a pedestal. Looking at some religious nutters, I wonder whether the cerebral cortex is actually a good thing, sometimes.

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
When my dad was a kid evolution wasn't even challenged, why the fuck does it have to be now. It's proven to me, especially after going to the Galapagos.


Yeah but if you go parts of the Deep South in America, some people clearly didn't evolve. What reason do they have to believe in evolution?


Have you been to the American south?


I did say "parts of". I should say 'bible belt' regions, if that's any better. My post was partially in jest.


Gotcha. I'm actually listening to the interview with one of the guys who made this joke of a film right now.
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EOS
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:48 pm 
 

I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too :scratch:

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Pathological_Frolic
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:14 am 
 

EOS wrote:
I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too :scratch:

They would probably say such people aren't real Christians
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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:15 am 
 

EOS wrote:
I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too :scratch:


"It's all Satan's work! He is in charge of the secret Illuminati that controls the world, the Pope is his puppet! The endtimes are nigh!

The music industry is directly under the control of Satan, who uses it to spread subliminal witchcraft and nasty curses to the youth through pagan drum beats! It turns you into a vampire!"

I wish I was joking when I say this, but I've seen those exact claims made many times.
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Sir_General_Flashman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:54 pm 
 

Wow, reading the comments on the IMDB board for this movie is so stupid. Most of the topics are why are you so close minded evolution is only a theory, if you really wanted to disprove it you would prove it. Arghh it makes me so angry.
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incarcerated_demon
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:51 pm 
 

Don't bother, it's an intellectually dishonest film, and mostly likely preaching to the choir anyway. I too am listening to the interview with Mark Mathis - and it's stunning how he evades pertinent questions, makes leaps of logic, engages in ad hominems and claims ignorance all at once. He could be a frigging lawyer, not an associate producer of a numbskull movie.

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Chaos_Llama
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:41 pm 
 

when I heard about this I facepalmed, and you just made me do it again.

Ben Stein needs to go meet his "maker" ASAP.

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feratu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:23 pm 
 

EOS wrote:
I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too :scratch:

Its the oldest trick in the conservative book. Accuse your opponent of something that you're actually guilty of, then when they retort with the truth, act like they're childish and stealing your idea. George W. Bush has been doing this for years. You'd be surprised how often it works. It short-circuits peoples brains or something.

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Resident_Hazard
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Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:57 pm 
 

feratu wrote:
EOS wrote:
I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too :scratch:

Its the oldest trick in the conservative book. Accuse your opponent of something that you're actually guilty of, then when they retort with the truth, act like they're childish and stealing your idea. George W. Bush has been doing this for years. You'd be surprised how often it works. It short-circuits peoples brains or something.



Don't try to veer this into a left-vs-right conversation. Conservatives are hardly the only hippocrites.
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NeglectedField
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:09 pm 
 

I certainly don't want it to be a left vs right thing either. There is an atheist 'right' discourse as well as a religious 'left' one. To think it only applies vice-versa is a very ethnocentric concept, used only by those who can only communicate in rhetoric.
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feratu
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:08 pm 
 

Resident_Hazard wrote:
feratu wrote:
EOS wrote:
I find it funny that there are actually people out there who think there is an atheist conspiracy to keep creationism out of science. There are plenty theists who are scientist and even biologists, but they must be in on the conspiracy too :scratch:

Its the oldest trick in the conservative book. Accuse your opponent of something that you're actually guilty of, then when they retort with the truth, act like they're childish and stealing your idea. George W. Bush has been doing this for years. You'd be surprised how often it works. It short-circuits peoples brains or something.



Don't try to veer this into a left-vs-right conversation. Conservatives are hardly the only hippocrites.

Just pointing out their tactics. I have at least as much contempt for liberals. In this case though, we happen to be talking about the right's hypocrisy only because we're talking about ID.

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