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Imperium_X
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:28 pm
Posts: 39
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:42 am 
 

Leify wrote:
Imperium_X wrote:
If it came down to torture to save lives, where would you draw the line between # of people dying and executing a painful array of injections?
I'm just scanning for where you stand, thats all.


I think that's inherently a trick question, even though I don't think you intended it to be.


As an addendum, I did not intend for it to be a trick in any way, just it came out very wrong on my end.

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:08 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
The Bush administration claims that the highest Al-qaida prisoner they have (don't remember his name) was subjected to waterboarding and after months worth of fruitless nonviolent questioning he gave up in fifteen seconds and told them info that led to the capture of other terrorists in the middle of operations. If they can provide evidence that this is the case, then that would be one such instance in which torture provided accurate info.



Anyway, the point that people being tortured will say anything to make it stop goes both ways, as "anything" includes the truth.


I'm of the opinion that anyone caught and convicted for terrorism or attempted terrorism inside the U.S., if they are high enough in the organization's chain of command, then the investigators should assume there is a ticking-time-bomb scenario as a precaution. This would mean torture rarely happens, since people that sufficiently high in an organization typically don't even enter the U.S. and just relay their orders overseas. Everybody that's worth pleasing is happy this way---minimal torture, and only the people who'd know anythign anyway are being tortured. And of course it must be a last resort.


From Wiki:

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

Several accounts reported that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was waterboarded while being interrogated by the CIA. According to the Bush administration, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed divulged information of tremendous value during his detention. He is said to have helped point the way to the capture of Riduan Isamuddin (AKA Hambali), the Indonesian terrorist responsible for the 2002 bombings of night clubs in Bali. According to the Bush administration, he also provided information on an Al Qaeda leader in England.[66]



So yes, torture does have its use.


edit: Another interesting wiki one

Abu Zubaida

There have also been reports that Abu Zubaida was waterboarded while detained by the U.S. government.

In 2002, U.S. intelligence located Abu Zubayda by tracing his phone calls. He was captured March 28, 2002, in a safehouse located in a two story apartment in Faisalabad, Pakistan. While in U.S. custody, he was waterboarded,[75] and consequently gave a great deal of information about the 9/11 attack plot. Such information was used by the Canadian government in seeking to uphold the 'security certificate' of Mohamed Harkat. Participating in his interrogation were two American psychologists, James Elmer Mitchell and R. Scott Shumate.[76][77]
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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incarcerated_demon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 195
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:46 am 
 

The problem with that is that it is after the fact though. Ticking bomb scenario criteria aren't really fulfilled. Good example nonetheless, but in the scale of innocent victims vs reliable information gleaned, it's pretty much nothing.

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:33 pm 
 

incarcerated_demon wrote:
The problem with that is that it is after the fact though. Ticking bomb scenario criteria aren't really fulfilled. Good example nonetheless, but in the scale of innocent victims vs reliable information gleaned, it's pretty much nothing.


Yeah that is the only two articles I found with a quick search of water boarding. All the same I support torture in both regards, in an attempt to get needed information right away and in attempts where you can spend months if need be to try and break them into giving information on the organization in which they came from. Example up top being he led them to a top Al-Qaeda official. Someone who because they captured could have saved lives in the future.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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incarcerated_demon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 195
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:28 pm 
 

I recognise your stand. I'm more worried about the potential for abuse, nay, immense potential for abuse. I'm not confident in any government to effectively administer a system of torture which has institutionalised safeguards and accountability, as well as a morally acceptable threshhold of guilt, suspected guilt or potential information.

I suppose you don't care about all that though. Eggs, omelette for you eh?

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