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incarcerated_demon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 195
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:16 am 
 

Napero wrote:
Perhaps a more precise question would lead to a Symposium-worthy discussion, but this is too general, not really what Symposium needs, and would lead to choppy mixture of serious and semi-trolling posts on the Tavern. I'm locking this before we get unpleasant consequences or Napero ends up appearing as a flaming humanist tree-hugger.


We love you Napero, really.

Anyway a more specific question is a bit of an old chestnut, but (1) in what circumstances would torture be justified? Let me clear up a bit of terminology first. Human rights conventions have defined torture strictly in terms of state practice, ie torture can only be committed by a state, whether in an official or unofficial capacity. So this discounts your slackjawed yokel Cletus who gets a kick out of burning black people. State-sponsored torture. I expect the argument to run down the human rights vs ticking bomb scenario lines :) But surprise me...

(2) Also, Europe by virtue of an extension on the prohibition on torture in the ECHR, has ruled that you cannot deport criminals back to their home countries where they may be at risk from being tortured. What do you guys think? See the recent furore in the UK and the ABu Qatada case (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 735984.ece)

(3) Also in Europe (in the UK, the Belmarsh prison cases), there is a prohibition on allowing in court procedures evidence obtained by torture and inhuman and degrading treatment. Thoughts?

(4) What are your views on reparations for torture victims? (See the organisation REDRESS for more info: http://www.redress.org/)

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Cynical
Lead Us into Temptation...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:55 am 
 

1. Any situation where it's effective. The health of the state is more important than the welfare of any of its individual members.

2. Jordan should be pissed about it, as the Europeans are denying them the right to their culture and ways.

3. It makes sense to the extent that such evidence is likely to be inaccurate.
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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:37 pm 
 

I support torture during war if the information extracted from said individual will directly lead to American servicemen (and allied) lives being saved.

Why should we extend courtesy to an enemy that would show us none? If it will help bring our soldiers home alive I say fire up the blow torches and bring on the sensory deprivation.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Leify
A Whisper of Death

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am
Posts: 744
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:44 pm 
 

1. When fighting a monster, one should be careful not to become one himself.
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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:49 pm 
 

Leify wrote:
1. When fighting a monster, one should be careful not to become one himself.


When it comes to this subject I am a strong believer that the end justifies the means.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Leify
A Whisper of Death

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:59 pm 
 

And if the end result doesn't stop at torturing our enemies?

What if the government resorts to torturing American citizens they think, with or without hard evidence, are plotting the next Oklahoma City or 9/11?

It's not something I can say will definitely happen, but I'd much rather make sure there's no option.
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The_Count
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:05 pm 
 

Leify wrote:
And if the end result doesn't stop at torturing our enemies?

What if the government resorts to torturing American citizens they think, with or without hard evidence, are plotting the next Oklahoma City or 9/11?

It's not something I can say will definitely happen, but I'd much rather make sure there's no option.


Obviously restrictions need to be in place for such a thing. Honestly if this is done correctly I would not even like to be aware its going on. I would much rather the American public be blind to this so there is no out cry over it.

Hell Americans do not even have to be the ones to do it, We could just use extraordinary rendition and hand them over to Israel or a number of other countries as we have done in the past.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:58 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
I support torture during war if the information extracted from said individual will directly lead to American servicemen (and allied) lives being saved.

Why should we extend courtesy to an enemy that would show us none? If it will help bring our soldiers home alive I say fire up the blow torches and bring on the sensory deprivation.

And that goes both ways, so you will approve the US servicemen being tortured if it saves lives in Bananistan?

Honestly, the USA has undermined its own moral high ground into a deep, deep pit in these issues. You dimply can't afford to criticize any other countries any more. This is one of the things your current adminstration has screwed up, and continues to do so.

The "juridical" foundation for the torture the USA uses, the idea of "unlawful combatants", works wonders when you consider that the USA has never declared war after the WWII, or in any other way made sure the wars are "legal" after a few skirmishes in Far East. Any US soldier found in Iraq, for example, could be classified as an unlawful combatant by anyone wishing to do so, with less fact-twisting and truth-mutilating than what the Bush administration has done.

Remember, things tend to go both ways.
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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:26 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
The_Count wrote:
I support torture during war if the information extracted from said individual will directly lead to American servicemen (and allied) lives being saved.

Why should we extend courtesy to an enemy that would show us none? If it will help bring our soldiers home alive I say fire up the blow torches and bring on the sensory deprivation.

And that goes both ways, so you will approve the US servicemen being tortured if it saves lives in Bananistan?

Honestly, the USA has undermined its own moral high ground into a deep, deep pit in these issues. You dimply can't afford to criticize any other countries any more. This is one of the things your current adminstration has screwed up, and continues to do so.

The "juridical" foundation for the torture the USA uses, the idea of "unlawful combatants", works wonders when you consider that the USA has never declared war after the WWII, or in any other way made sure the wars are "legal" after a few skirmishes in Far East. Any US soldier found in Iraq, for example, could be classified as an unlawful combatant by anyone wishing to do so, with less fact-twisting and truth-mutilating than what the Bush administration has done.

Remember, things tend to go both ways.


It would just be extending the same courtesy to our enemy that they have extended us in the past. We have found bodies of captured contractors and soldiers bearing signs of torture. They can do what they feel is right to achieve what ever goals they think they must reach. On that same note I feel we should be able to use what ever methods we want to achieve our goals.

It really does not matter anyway as torture is happening and is going to continue to happen both by the United States and by others. If anyone really thinks they can put a stop to it all together they are very naive.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Napero
GedankenPanzer

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:34 pm 
 

Poor OzzyApu, Giftschlange_Krieg, Resident_Hazard and a bunch of others here if you ever become a president.

Military contractors, by the way, is another thing that should make US citizens worried. They do what they want, they take your money, and fly your colours, but they don't need to give a damn. And if I was a citizen of the USA, I sure wouldn't give a damn for them. Research the issue a bit and you'll see that those guys are not a positive thing for your country.
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The_Count
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:52 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
Poor OzzyApu, Giftschlange_Krieg, Resident_Hazard and a bunch of others here if you ever become a president.

Military contractors, by the way, is another thing that should make US citizens worried. They do what they want, they take your money, and fly your colours, but they don't need to give a damn. And if I was a citizen of the USA, I sure wouldn't give a damn for them. Research the issue a bit and you'll see that those guys are not a positive thing for your country.


Private military contractors do have some purpose at least with our military stretched so thin, mainly with things like guarding convoys and training Iraqi soldiers. Sure there are scandals with them and illegal activities such as gun running seem to follow but over all I do not have an entirely negative view of them. The shooting of innocents such as what happened to get Black Waters contract revoked does not really phase me either. We have U.S. Marines who have gone on camera saying how much fun it is to shoot people and the kill count of civilians purposely shot I am sure is outstanding.

Other then that no thankfully for all of the world I will not become president :lol:. I will settle just fine for a few years in the military and probably try to get into some type of law enforcement.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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incarcerated_demon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 195
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:54 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
Obviously restrictions need to be in place for such a thing. Honestly if this is done correctly I would not even like to be aware its going on. I would much rather the American public be blind to this so there is no out cry over it.

Hell Americans do not even have to be the ones to do it, We could just use extraordinary rendition and hand them over to Israel or a number of other countries as we have done in the past.


So you're not really justifying torture in any way, you're just fudging the issue, passing the buck, closing two eyes etc. Why wouldn't you like an outcry over it? Is it because at some innate level, people are uncomfortable with the idea of torture?

Well, extraordinary rendition goes on already, you send your prisoners to Bagram, Egypt, Syria, Jordan (not sure about the last two) for them to do the dirty work. The US Military and Administration can say our hands are clean. Not to mention the travesty that is Guantanamo Bay.

Actually The_Count, would you torture someone? That's a neutral question btw.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:59 pm 
 

incarcerated_demon wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Obviously restrictions need to be in place for such a thing. Honestly if this is done correctly I would not even like to be aware its going on. I would much rather the American public be blind to this so there is no out cry over it.

Hell Americans do not even have to be the ones to do it, We could just use extraordinary rendition and hand them over to Israel or a number of other countries as we have done in the past.


So you're not really justifying torture in any way, you're just fudging the issue, passing the buck, closing two eyes etc. Why wouldn't you like an outcry over it? Is it because at some innate level, people are uncomfortable with the idea of torture?



Re-read his post, he already answered why. An outcry would hinder the operations and thus hinder the intelligence gathered from said operations.
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incarcerated_demon
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:00 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
It would just be extending the same courtesy to our enemy that they have extended us in the past. We have found bodies of captured contractors and soldiers bearing signs of torture. They can do what they feel is right to achieve what ever goals they think they must reach. On that same note I feel we should be able to use what ever methods we want to achieve our goals.


Interesting. Although I think you're myopic, I can't help but applaud you for your consistency. According to your logic, 9/11 was justified, and you bear them (the perpetrators) no grudge. It's just that you'd like to nuke the whole of Afghanistan in return. Nothing personal, just business. Respect indeed.

Quote:
It really does not matter anyway as torture is happening and is going to continue to happen both by the United States and by others. If anyone really thinks they can put a stop to it all together they are very naive.


I agree torture is happening and it is naive to think we can stop it. Luckily Europe is slightly naive.

What in your opinion is the purpose of torture?

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incarcerated_demon
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:08 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
incarcerated_demon wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Obviously restrictions need to be in place for such a thing. Honestly if this is done correctly I would not even like to be aware its going on. I would much rather the American public be blind to this so there is no out cry over it.

Hell Americans do not even have to be the ones to do it, We could just use extraordinary rendition and hand them over to Israel or a number of other countries as we have done in the past.


So you're not really justifying torture in any way, you're just fudging the issue, passing the buck, closing two eyes etc. Why wouldn't you like an outcry over it? Is it because at some innate level, people are uncomfortable with the idea of torture?



Re-read his post, he already answered why. An outcry would hinder the operations and thus hinder the intelligence gathered from said operations.


The context was the American state torturing American citizens. He said he preferred the public be blind to it. I asked if it was whether people don't like the idea of torture, much less of their own people. Perhaps I didn't word it correctly. Apologies.

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DBettino
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:15 pm 
 

Torture is an unavoidable consequence of war. Trying to fight a war without using torture is like trying to read a newspaper without getting ink on your hands. I detest this concept of war that attempts to uphold only the most moral strategies. Useless banter. The second the first bullet is fired, all that stuff goes out the window. Do people honestly think all this talk matters to the poor bastards on the ground?

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The_Count
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:20 pm 
 

incarcerated_demon wrote:
Actually The_Count, would you torture someone? That's a neutral question btw.


If I felt it would benefit the greater cause I was trying to achieve yes I would.

Example:

Two united states Marines were abducted from a post and taken somewhere to be tortured and beheaded. At the same time a squad of soldiers captures a high ranking insurgent leader who very well might know the location of said Marines.

In that situation I would gladly use any means necessary to extract the information if it meant there was a chance we could bring those two Marines back alive.

On a side note I know nothing about the best methods to extract information but if I was schooled on such information I would gladly use it to help save American lives.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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incarcerated_demon
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:31 pm 
 

DBettino wrote:
Torture is an unavoidable consequence of war. Trying to fight a war without using torture is like trying to read a newspaper without getting ink on your hands. I detest this concept of war that attempts to uphold only the most moral strategies. Useless banter. The second the first bullet is fired, all that stuff goes out the window. Do people honestly think all this talk matters to the poor bastards on the ground?


Yes it does. If you're in the military, knowing that you'll at worst be slapped about slightly instead of being brutally tortured is a great comfort. I'm not saying that the Iraqis or the Afghanis abide by the Geneva Convention, or that ground troops actually BELIEVE that they won't be tortured or mistreated by enemy personnel. But the comfort, no matter how small is there. That is the comfort that the intelligence services do not enjoy - they're fair game as they're not combatants.

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Sir_General_Flashman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:35 pm 
 

Leify wrote:
And if the end result doesn't stop at torturing our enemies?

What if the government resorts to torturing American citizens they think, with or without hard evidence, are plotting the next Oklahoma City or 9/11?

It's not something I can say will definitely happen, but I'd much rather make sure there's no option.


Or what if the torture is successful, but then it sets a precedent for the government to be able to torture people at any time for reasons that only they see. To be frank, torture only ends up with us being tortured.
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incarcerated_demon
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:38 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
incarcerated_demon wrote:
Actually The_Count, would you torture someone? That's a neutral question btw.


If I felt it would benefit the greater cause I was trying to achieve yes I would.

Example:

Two united states Marines were abducted from a post and taken somewhere to be tortured and beheaded. At the same time a squad of soldiers captures a high ranking insurgent leader who very well might know the location of said Marines.

In that situation I would gladly use any means necessary to extract the information if it meant there was a chance we could bring those two Marines back alive.

On a side note I know nothing about the best methods to extract information but if I was schooled on such information I would gladly use it to help save American lives.


Do you think torture should be the first resort or the last?

Of course I respect the force of your argument, I really haven't found the answer to the ticking bomb scenario - I wish I could, but I haven't read a satisfactory one yet. So for now, I'll just have to stick my fingers in my ears and go "torture no!" :D

The one argument I can put forward is that information extracted by torture is at best suspect and at worst completely unreliable. If you read some accounts of people who have undergone torture, you'll find that they'll say virtually anything to stop what's being done to them. Of course, there are more sophisticated methods of torture nowadays: mental, psychological, even drugs I believe.

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The_Count
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:26 pm 
 

incarcerated_demon wrote:
The_Count wrote:
incarcerated_demon wrote:
Actually The_Count, would you torture someone? That's a neutral question btw.


If I felt it would benefit the greater cause I was trying to achieve yes I would.

Example:

Two united states Marines were abducted from a post and taken somewhere to be tortured and beheaded. At the same time a squad of soldiers captures a high ranking insurgent leader who very well might know the location of said Marines.

In that situation I would gladly use any means necessary to extract the information if it meant there was a chance we could bring those two Marines back alive.

On a side note I know nothing about the best methods to extract information but if I was schooled on such information I would gladly use it to help save American lives.


Do you think torture should be the first resort or the last?

Of course I respect the force of your argument, I really haven't found the answer to the ticking bomb scenario - I wish I could, but I haven't read a satisfactory one yet. So for now, I'll just have to stick my fingers in my ears and go "torture no!" :D

The one argument I can put forward is that information extracted by torture is at best suspect and at worst completely unreliable. If you read some accounts of people who have undergone torture, you'll find that they'll say virtually anything to stop what's being done to them. Of course, there are more sophisticated methods of torture nowadays: mental, psychological, even drugs I believe.


It would depend on situation to situation with the first to last thing and I would just have to judge from there. War sucks what else can I say?

As far as the information being reliable, yes you do have a point there. I am sure there are ways to tell if one is being truthful tho and the human body under normal circumstances without training to resist torture can only take so much.

And yeah I am sure there are all kinds of crazy torture methods other then just the average stuff people think about such as cutting and burning. My favorite so far I think would be when the U.S. was laying siege to the Holy See's embassy in panama to get Manuel Noriega to surrender they blasted AC/DC and Van Halen among other things to get him to give up. :lol:
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Imperium_X
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:28 pm
Posts: 39
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:45 pm 
 

Leify wrote:
1. When fighting a monster, one should be careful not to become one himself.


If theres a nuclear weapon about to be detonated, I would be sure as hell using the most pain inducing chemicals on earth would be worth way more with one guy suffering then many many many people being slaughtered, and then the fallout after that.

EDIT: My English sucked above, sorry... I gotta write an exam now so I cant fix it. Forgive me.

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Chaos_Llama
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:03 pm 
 

Cynical wrote:
1. Any situation where it's effective. The health of the state is more important than the welfare of any of its individual members.


Been reading Mussolini lately?

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Leify
A Whisper of Death

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:20 pm 
 

Imperium_X wrote:
Leify wrote:
1. When fighting a monster, one should be careful not to become one himself.


If theres a nuclear weapon about to be detonated, I would be sure as hell using the most pain inducing chemicals on earth would be worth way more with one guy suffering then many many many people being slaughtered, and then the fallout after that.

EDIT: My English sucked above, sorry... I gotta write an exam now so I cant fix it. Forgive me.


Considering there are no terrorist states with nuclear ICBM's, the scenario you present represents a failure in securing our own borders from the entrance of a foreign threat.

This being the case, I'd much rather improve security measures than resort to torturing people at the last minute for information that may or may not be accurate.
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Imperium_X
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:28 pm
Posts: 39
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:08 am 
 

Leify wrote:
Imperium_X wrote:
Leify wrote:
1. When fighting a monster, one should be careful not to become one himself.


If theres a nuclear weapon about to be detonated, I would be sure as hell using the most pain inducing chemicals on earth would be worth way more with one guy suffering then many many many people being slaughtered, and then the fallout after that.

EDIT: My English sucked above, sorry... I gotta write an exam now so I cant fix it. Forgive me.


Considering there are no terrorist states with nuclear ICBM's, the scenario you present represents a failure in securing our own borders from the entrance of a foreign threat.

This being the case, I'd much rather improve security measures than resort to torturing people at the last minute for information that may or may not be accurate.


If it came down to torture to save lives, where would you draw the line between # of people dying and executing a painful array of injections?
I'm just scanning for where you stand, thats all.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:08 am 
 

Leify wrote:

This being the case, I'd much rather improve security measures than resort to torturing people at the last minute for information that may or may not be accurate.



Not going to happen, realistically. That would require a wall at every inch of border and a completely militarized port system, which would cost millions of dollars that Americans would not want to spend even after New York got nuked.
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Leify
A Whisper of Death

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am
Posts: 744
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:37 am 
 

Imperium_X wrote:
If it came down to torture to save lives, where would you draw the line between # of people dying and executing a painful array of injections?
I'm just scanning for where you stand, thats all.


I think that's inherently a trick question, even though I don't think you intended it to be.

It's essentially comparing the value of people's lives, and while I don't think anyone's life is more valuable than another persons, I also can't disregard my ethical dilemma with torture in the face of it.

It's the type of decision I could only make in the face of the actual situation with the information at hand. It's also the reason I think we should be pre-empting it with border security measures.

Earthcubed wrote:
Not going to happen, realistically. That would require a wall at every inch of border and a completely militarized port system, which would cost millions of dollars that Americans would not want to spend even after New York got nuked.

Technically speaking, increasing security nationwide would cost American's money in taxes, but would also stimulate the economy by creating jobs. This would increase tax revenue to some extent. Not to mention that it could likely be funded by cutting down on certain other spending black holes :D
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DBettino
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Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:21 am 
 

Chaos_Llama wrote:
Cynical wrote:
1. Any situation where it's effective. The health of the state is more important than the welfare of any of its individual members.


Been reading Mussolini lately?


Is that supposed to be an insult?

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Napero
GedankenPanzer

Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:16 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:36 am 
 

Imperium_X wrote:
If theres a nuclear weapon about to be detonated, I would be sure as hell using the most pain inducing chemicals on earth would be worth way more with one guy suffering then many many many people being slaughtered, and then the fallout after that.

Congratulations, people! We actually had 19 posts before someone mentioned a nuke about to go off somewhere! I'm surprised it took so long.

In the current situation, the danger that a non-existent nuclear device is possibly about to go off somewhere, years after the people in case were caught, can be estimated at several tenths of a percent per decade, and it therefore becomes necessary to waterboard people whose main reason for being incarcerated is the fact that in addition to living a more or less happy life in some Middle East mountains and spending their time copulating with goats mainly, they had an old AK-47 as a part of their everyday costume when the US troops happened to find them.

Every season of 24 must receive some funding from the Department of Defence. It seems to have a powerful effect on people.
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incarcerated_demon
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:32 am 
 

And 28 posts before someone mentioned '24'!

Like Leify, the ethical dilemma exists for me as well, as I don't believe in calculating the value of human life (which is funny, because I'm quite utilitarian in most other things). The problem with torture is because the arguments are so strong on both sides. Like, where do you draw the line? What constitutes a situation where torture is justified? And where would it end?

Torture just seems to me to be cruel and debasing, and in view of its reliability, plain unnecessary. The stuff going on in Abu Ghraib was just the average meathead soldier drunk on power and exercising the sadism inherent in all of us. The worst stuff in Syria and Egypt we don't hear about, and that's worrying too.

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The_Count
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:45 am 
 

I found this an interesting ready

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/ye ... ture1.html

MAY 24--In a recent raid on an al-Qaeda safe house in Iraq, U.S. military officials recovered an assortment of crude drawings depicting torture methods like "blowtorch to the skin" and "eye removal." Along with the images, which you'll find on the following pages, soldiers seized various torture implements, like meat cleavers, whips, and wire cutters. Photos of those items can be seen here. The images, which were just declassified by the Department of Defense, also include a picture of a ramshackle Baghdad safe house described as an "al-Qaeda torture chamber." It was there, during an April 24 raid, that soldiers found a man suspended from the ceiling by a chain. According to the military, he had been abducted from his job and was being beaten daily by his captors. In a raid earlier this week, Coalition Forces freed five Iraqis who were found in a padlocked room in Karmah. The group, which included a boy, were reportedly beaten with chains, cables, and hoses. Photos showing injuries sustained by those captives can be found here. (12 pages)
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Vansoth
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:50 am 
 

The problem I have with many of the posters in this thread is the idea that torture is somehow a reliable means of acquiring information.

In truth, it is one of the worst. As has been widely acknowledged, tortured people will do anything to make the torture stop, including false information.

While people here make good points about "if information is desperately needed, torture would be justified", they entirely miss this one simple psychological point.

Besides the obvious ethics concerns...

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The_Count
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:04 pm 
 

Vansoth wrote:
The problem I have with many of the posters in this thread is the idea that torture is somehow a reliable means of acquiring information.

In truth, it is one of the worst. As has been widely acknowledged, tortured people will do anything to make the torture stop, including false information.

While people here make good points about "if information is desperately needed, torture would be justified", they entirely miss this one simple psychological point.

Besides the obvious ethics concerns...


Keep at someone enough in a desperate situation and promise them you will keep them alive for months of years giving them blood transfusions if you have to until you learn what you want and people will eventually spill life secrets.

But honestly as I said before I know nothing of these techniques and I am sure it had advanced to a science these days.
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I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Leify
A Whisper of Death

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:23 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
Keep at someone enough in a desperate situation and promise them you will keep them alive for months of years giving them blood transfusions if you have to until you learn what you want and people will eventually spill life secrets.

But honestly as I said before I know nothing of these techniques and I am sure it had advanced to a science these days.


That defeats the purpose if the information is time critical. In those cases, the prisoner can very well lie long enough that whatever is going to happen, does happen.

Then what? Do we continue torturing them just because?
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The_Count
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:32 pm 
 

Leify wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Keep at someone enough in a desperate situation and promise them you will keep them alive for months of years giving them blood transfusions if you have to until you learn what you want and people will eventually spill life secrets.

But honestly as I said before I know nothing of these techniques and I am sure it had advanced to a science these days.


That defeats the purpose if the information is time critical. In those cases, the prisoner can very well lie long enough that whatever is going to happen, does happen.

Then what? Do we continue torturing them just because?


No then we shoot him and dispose of the corpse in the best way fit because our government could not afford the liability.

And no I am not trolling honestly if you were the ones doing the torture I am sure you would agree it would be the best thing to do.
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Vansoth
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:55 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
Vansoth wrote:
The problem I have with many of the posters in this thread is the idea that torture is somehow a reliable means of acquiring information.

In truth, it is one of the worst. As has been widely acknowledged, tortured people will do anything to make the torture stop, including false information.

While people here make good points about "if information is desperately needed, torture would be justified", they entirely miss this one simple psychological point.

Besides the obvious ethics concerns...


Keep at someone enough in a desperate situation and promise them you will keep them alive for months of years giving them blood transfusions if you have to until you learn what you want and people will eventually spill life secrets.

But honestly as I said before I know nothing of these techniques and I am sure it had advanced to a science these days.

Well they certainly will divulge information, but there's no guarantee it will be correct in formation, especially in the case of a religious fanatic. Often individuals can be made to give up information far more easily through indirect questioning.

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The_Count
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:05 pm 
 

Vansoth wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Vansoth wrote:
The problem I have with many of the posters in this thread is the idea that torture is somehow a reliable means of acquiring information.

In truth, it is one of the worst. As has been widely acknowledged, tortured people will do anything to make the torture stop, including false information.

While people here make good points about "if information is desperately needed, torture would be justified", they entirely miss this one simple psychological point.

Besides the obvious ethics concerns...


Keep at someone enough in a desperate situation and promise them you will keep them alive for months of years giving them blood transfusions if you have to until you learn what you want and people will eventually spill life secrets.

But honestly as I said before I know nothing of these techniques and I am sure it had advanced to a science these days.

Well they certainly will divulge information, but there's no guarantee it will be correct in formation, especially in the case of a religious fanatic. Often individuals can be made to give up information far more easily through indirect questioning.


I will leave it to those in the intelligence field to determine the best methods of obtaining information. If it involves cutting off fingers and electric shock treatment all the while having your senses deprived then good all the power to them I have no problem with the enemies of my country suffering to help save the lives of my countrymen.

At the same time if they can get the info in a peaceful manner then good for them, works just as well for me.
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I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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opprobrium_9
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:11 pm 
 

For (3) i think doping would be a more accurate form of gleaning info. People, or rather the torture victims, are generally smarter than torture that they are put under, especially if it comes down to "you give us information or more pain." However, under the influence of enough drugs there is less likeliness that the information will be a resort. However, drugs have many holes, certainly the truth serums are faulty in that they open up the whole sub-conscious and that is a very dangerous device upon which to obtain information too. I would say the latter method is more likely to get better results, but honestly both probably don't work as well as one might like.
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Morrigan
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Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:03 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
Every season of 24 must receive some funding from the Department of Defence. It seems to have a powerful effect on people.

Haha, I was about to tell Imperium_X to stop watching 24, or at least stop taking it more seriously than a simple entertaining TV show.

In real life, the we-have-only-a-minute-left-until-everyone-dies scenario where torture would be "justified to save lives" just does not happen.

Besides, is there any evidence that torture works as a method of acquiring intelligence? I seem to recall that all the available evidence shows that it does not. So the point is moot.

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:02 am 
 

The Bush administration claims that the highest Al-qaida prisoner they have (don't remember his name) was subjected to waterboarding and after months worth of fruitless nonviolent questioning he gave up in fifteen seconds and told them info that led to the capture of other terrorists in the middle of operations. If they can provide evidence that this is the case, then that would be one such instance in which torture provided accurate info.



Anyway, the point that people being tortured will say anything to make it stop goes both ways, as "anything" includes the truth.


I'm of the opinion that anyone caught and convicted for terrorism or attempted terrorism inside the U.S., if they are high enough in the organization's chain of command, then the investigators should assume there is a ticking-time-bomb scenario as a precaution. This would mean torture rarely happens, since people that sufficiently high in an organization typically don't even enter the U.S. and just relay their orders overseas. Everybody that's worth pleasing is happy this way---minimal torture, and only the people who'd know anythign anyway are being tortured. And of course it must be a last resort.
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