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Gothbag
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:29 am
Posts: 36
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 5:09 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
intothevoid wrote:
Let people that actually live in these parts of the world choose to do something of their situation.


That's exactly what I do my friend :) I've talked with people from Mexico that support the EZLN, from Basque Country that support the Basque Independence and from many other places that support national-liberation views. I've even talked to people that are campaigning for the independence of Inner Mongolia. And from those sources I've gathered that this is what the people of these areas want. And if they choose to be autonomous I have no reason to be against it. As it happened with Kosovar Albanians (however, I want the NATO and UN troops to leave Kosovo as soon as possible but that's another story).


I don't care if you support Basque nationalism or whatever but do not show fucking support for the motherfucking ETA. One thing is supporting a democratic way to their independence, via referendum or whatever and another one is supporting a bunch of motherfucking assassins.

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norilor
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 7:27 pm
Posts: 336
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:00 am 
 

There is not much I can add to this. I think supporting terrorists is very bad and I loathe human scum who revert to barbaric/sub-human ways to accomplish tasks. One discredits one's cause when violence is used.

If these people wanted a free country/state/whatever, they could simply go on strike. The economy would fail, nothing would be done.....

You people let Mors get to you.

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BlackFlag
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:30 pm
Posts: 220
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:15 am 
 

Trickster_314 wrote:
Well, we have bable, which is, in fact, a matter of conflict since it isn't recognised as an official language, but rather a dialect (just as many other languages in Spain, like the ones that are spoken in Andalucía, or Valencia). It is not compulsory to learn it in schools or for public institutions to use it, though it is starting to be used along with spanish.


1. A language doesn't need to be recognised by an official statement to be what it actually is: a language and not a dialect. It seems you have problems to make the differenece between the two terms. Bable or Asturian is just a dialect of a more complex linguistical system that also includes Lionese and Castuo called Astur-Lionese. It is not a Spanish dialect as it is the Spanish spoken in Almería or Cuenca.

2. "Valencian" isn't a Spanish dialect, but a Catalan dialect. This can't be discussed, as it is the way it's taught at universities everywhere, including Valencia. Said that, Valencian local governement doesn't recognise their language as a part of the Catalan linguistical system because they are a bunch of Spanish nationalists afraid of that supposed Catalan expansionism, which... OMG... is going to devastate their waterless lands, golf camps and Marina d'Or-Ciudad de Vacaciones with their deafing Segadors hymn and blinding flag. Perhaps for that reason Valencian is disappearing fast and it's every day more contaminated by the smashing Spanish influence, who knows?

On EZLN, I don't support any movement based on violence, I don't care how good their ideas are if they cannot use words to express them.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:45 pm 
 

Gothbag wrote:

I don't care if you support Basque nationalism or whatever but do not show fucking support for the motherfucking ETA. One thing is supporting a democratic way to their independence, via referendum or whatever and another one is supporting a bunch of motherfucking assassins.


I do not support Basque Nationalism. I support Basque independence. I only agree with the independent part of their movement. As for ETA. I do not support it. I just do not consider it a terrorist organization. I do not agree with its killing of innocent people. Plus, it's Marxist and I am not Marxist. But when they kill politicians I am with them.

The so-called "terrorist" fright has happened here too. We had an organization called 17N (disbanded when the bomb of a member blew out in his hands) that was thought to be terrorist by the mass media (ultimately, it was only a Marxist organization which is why I do not support them either). What they did? They killed capitalists, CIA agents and politicians. I had no problem with that. These people are not innocent. Personally, I only feel sorry for one passer-by and two drivers (of politicians) that were killed by 17N cause they were innocent. But when it comes to real terrorism, I cannot consider 17N or any other so-called "terrorist" group bigger terrorists than the US goverment and CIA.

BlackFlag wrote:

On EZLN, I don't support any movement based on violence, I don't care how good their ideas are if they cannot use words to express them.


EZLN is not based on violence. They have never used violence against innocents. Only when the army came to supress their revolution.

@Theomachus, Commandante Ramona has Mayan ancestry.
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Nordic_Warhammer
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 251
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:00 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
EZLN is not based on violence. They have never used violence against innocents. Only when the army came to supress their revolution.


How the fuck would you know?
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:06 pm 
 

Nordic_Warhammer wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
EZLN is not based on violence. They have never used violence against innocents. Only when the army came to supress their revolution.


How the fuck would you know?


I've done search and I've contacted with individuals that are involved with EZLN.
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Nordic_Warhammer
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 251
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:10 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Nordic_Warhammer wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
EZLN is not based on violence. They have never used violence against innocents. Only when the army came to supress their revolution.


How the fuck would you know?


I've done search and I've contacted with individuals that are involved with EZLN.


Hahahaha. Lets pretend I am from some fictional "liberation" group.

Dumb Greek: Hello.
Asshole: Hello.
DG: I heard you guys fight for freedom.
AH: We sure do.
DG: But I heard you murdered innocent people.
AH: Those are lies. We would never do something like that.
DG: Okay.

Is that pretty much how it went down?

Simply put, people lie.
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:36 pm 
 

Nordic_Warhammer wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Nordic_Warhammer wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
EZLN is not based on violence. They have never used violence against innocents. Only when the army came to supress their revolution.


How the fuck would you know?


I've done search and I've contacted with individuals that are involved with EZLN.

Is that pretty much how it went down?


No. Besides, there was never such info about EZLN killing innocent people. Cause simply it never happened. If it did (remember I'm talking about innocent people not armed ones) then prove it to me.
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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:42 pm 
 

How does being armed automatically exclude you from being innocent?

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Nordic_Warhammer
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 10:12 pm
Posts: 251
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:52 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
How does being armed automatically exclude you from being innocent?


Because thats his way of thinking, and he is always right.:roll:
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:02 pm 
 

Nordic_Warhammer wrote:
rexxz wrote:
How does being armed automatically exclude you from being innocent?


Because thats his way of thinking, and he is always right.:roll:


I never claimed that I am always right, Bjorn.

Thorgrim, when armed army officers or cops break into an area that has been claimed by the locals they do it in order to kill people (armed or unarmed). And that's not innocent. That's what the Army did when they tried to enter Chiapas. They came in order to conquer and the locals fought back. EZLN never went beyond Chiapas in a killing spree (and that's why I support EZLN unlike ETA).
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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:11 pm 
 

Way to skip the question.

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9807
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:18 am 
 

Notice that he's fine with people killing capitalists and politicians. Because those people are automatically EVIL.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:42 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Notice that he's fine with people killing capitalists and politicians. Because those people are automatically EVIL.


No. Because capitalists and politicians kill common people for profit. They killed my two grandfathers. Besides I do not think people are "evil".
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9807
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:15 am 
 

So because some individuals, who happened to be capitalist and/or politicians, "killed your grandfathers", that means that it's okay to kill anyone who happens to be a capitalist and/or a politician?

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Bezerko
Vladimir Poopin

Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:50 am
Posts: 4806
Location: Venestraya
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 3:44 am 
 

Mors, why do you continue sprouting this shit when it is apparent that it's just stupid uneducated crap that you use to support your ad hoc "ideology", which may I add is also stupidly uneducated? Come on, I swear you just go against common opinion because your "ideology" dictates that common opinion is ALWAYS wrong. Of course, let's not forget a common consensus is reached for a reason, usually by a majority (OH NOES, MAJORITIES!), who have decided to have a look at the situation and analyse it properly, rather than taking an idiotic knee-jerk reaction because of idiotic beliefs that the majority is always wrong. Do you do this just to "stand out from the crowd" or something?

I don't know if that rant made any sense, if it doesn't, please help me here people.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:22 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
So because some individuals, who happened to be capitalist and/or politicians, "killed your grandfathers", that means that it's okay to kill anyone who happens to be a capitalist and/or a politician?


I see it happening all the day though. The rich "liberals" and capitalists always exploit the poor working class. And as a part of it I feel it in my skin. I've seen cops shooting protesters. I've seen them hitting my closest friend in a rally. I've seen my own uncle (who is a fucking capitalist) to pay gangsters to beat my father because my father (a employee to my uncle's company) complained about how he treated his employees (he stole them in regular basis).

But I hope that no one killed your grandfathers, no one shot your fellow protesters, no one hit your friend (14-year old girl back then) in a rally, no one paid gangsters to beat your father and no one has ever steal from you and your family just in order to boost their wealth. Really, I hope you rule a happy life in the candy world you live in.

Bezerko, I do not care about "standing out from the crowd". I consider it childish. I've passed that stage.
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DGYDP
Leather Lion

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:19 pm
Posts: 1244
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:36 am 
 

Give it up, you clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about. Not all capitalists and politicians should be killed, anybody who claims otherwise is an idiot looking for attention by making hateful and ridiculous claims (and because you aren't that clever I'm going to accentuate I'm talking about you). Even if all of them are 'bad', which for the record they're not, killing all of them is never the best solution.

As a matter of fact I have lost several people I care about due to ETA and none of them were politicians or capitalists. Once again, you have no clue what you're talking about and you've changed your opinion on ETA several times by now, which is yet another indication you're full of shit.

If you'd really be upset because people died, you wouldn't be bullshitting about terrorist organisations the way you are now. Because news flash: they kill hundreds of innocent people. Where do you get your information? Oh right, people who are terrorists themselves. Way to go, I'm sure they are the best source for neutral information.

You want to believe in a childish idea of a world without governments and countries, be my guest. You're not hurting anybody with 'happy life in the candy world' thoughts like the ones you have. I mean seriously, clearly you've taking a liking into making an ass out of yourself on the internet so why not continue? Fine for me, as long as you don't show support for murderers, which suprise suprise you did as well. So please fuck off with your immature bullshit.
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:36 am 
 

DGYDP, I never said that all capitalists and politicians should be killed. Yes, I frown upon them but I am not a violent person myself. The certain capitalists and politicians though that were murdered were proven criminals and their killing was an act of revenge.

As I said before I do not have any problem with ETA's ideology but I do not condone the killing of unarmed people. On the other hand, EZLN is non-violent and I dare any of you to prove to me that they are.

Ah, and I am sorry about your relatives. I know how it is to lose someone that's close to you.

DGYDP wrote:
Oh right, people who are terrorists themselves. Way to go, I'm sure they are the best source for neutral information.


Actually, that's pretentious to say. What's the best source about them? The US goverment which are the real terrorists?

EDIT: typo
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9807
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:12 pm 
 

Here it is again: how it's perfectly okay to kill people if they happen to be capitalists, CIA agents and politicians.
Quote:
They killed capitalists, CIA agents and politicians. I had no problem with that. These people are not innocent.


Mors_Gloria wrote:
But I hope that no one killed your grandfathers, no one shot your fellow protesters, no one hit your friend (14-year old girl back then) in a rally, no one paid gangsters to beat your father and no one has ever steal from you and your family just in order to boost their wealth.

Indeed, that sort of thing doesn't happen around here. Funny how some countries suck more than others, huh?
As for stealing, it happened - we call those people burglars and criminals.

Quote:
Really, I hope you rule a happy life in the candy world you live in.

:lol: Oh the motherfucking IRONY!

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:19 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Here it is again: how it's perfectly okay to kill people if they happen to be capitalists, CIA agents and politicians.
Quote:
They killed capitalists, CIA agents and politicians. I had no problem with that. These people are not innocent.


Noticed that these people are not innocent part? The people that were killed by 17N were involved in arm trafficking, drug trafficking, child trafficking, pimping and shit like that.

Morrigan wrote:
Indeed, that sort of thing doesn't happen around here. Funny how some countries suck more than others, huh?
As for stealing, it happened - we call those people burglars and criminals.


Really? Interesting. We call them the State, cops, politicians etc.

Morrigan wrote:
:lol: Oh the motherfucking IRONY!


You can laugh as you want. But I wonder. Have you ever worked in your life? And I'm not talking about office jobs. I'm talking about manual labour.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9807
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:59 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Noticed that these people are not innocent part? The people that were killed by 17N were involved in arm trafficking, drug trafficking, child trafficking, pimping and shit like that.

So instead of saying, "they killed traffickers and pimps", you say, "they killed capitalists and politicians". Makes perfect sense.


Quote:
Really? Interesting. We call them the State, cops, politicians etc.

I don't know how corrupt your government is, but cops here don't usually barge in our home to steal our stuff. Why do you think that is?

Quote:
You can laugh as you want. But I wonder. Have you ever worked in your life? And I'm not talking about office jobs. I'm talking about manual labour.

I wonder. Why do you think that manual labour is the only "true" real work? And what does that have to do with anything?

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:13 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
So instead of saying, "they killed traffickers and pimps", you say, "they killed capitalists and politicians". Makes perfect sense.


Actually, that's what most capitalists and politicians are. How do you think that they got power in the first place? Some kind of "magic fairy" gave it to them? Come on now. Don't believe in fairy tales. Power corrupts. C'est la vie. The only way for avoid corruption is when no one has power.


Morrigan wrote:
I don't know how corrupt your government is, but cops here don't usually barge in our home to steal our stuff. Why do you think that is?


My goverment is not less corrupted than the goverment of any other country. As I said before, power corrupts.

Morrigan wrote:
I wonder. Why do you think that manual labour is the only "true" real work? And what does that have to do with anything?


I do not think that manual labour is the only real work. I just know that its far more easy for the bosses to exploit a manual worker (who usually is very poor) than an office employee (they usually have more money than workers). I mentioned that in regatds to the candy world I said you live in. Cause if you haven't ever worked as a manual worker you cannot understand how the bosses treat their workers.
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Veddartha
Apocalyptic Destroyer of Angels

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:12 pm
Posts: 922
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:20 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:

EZLN is not based on violence. They have never used violence against innocents. Only when the army came to supress their revolution.


You are truly a natural fucking idiot. The uprise of EZLN was done with violence and after that the army supressed them.
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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8769
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:25 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Actually, that's what most capitalists and politicians are. How do you think that they got power in the first place? Some kind of "magic fairy" gave it to them? Come on now. Don't believe in fairy tales. Power corrupts. C'est la vie. The only way for avoid corruption is when no one has power.


Maybe they got to that place legitimately? *gasp* Oh no!

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9807
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:41 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Actually, that's what most capitalists and politicians are. How do you think that they got power in the first place? Some kind of "magic fairy" gave it to them? Come on now. Don't believe in fairy tales. Power corrupts. C'est la vie. The only way for avoid corruption is when no one has power.

Yeah, it can't be personal qualities like leadership, intelligence, charisma or even simple luck... ALL people gain power through evil, corrupted means, without exceptions. :rolleyes:
By the way, you are confusing cause and effect. People gain power because of various factors, such as the ones I named, but if they become corrupt, it's an effect of them having this power (and that they cannot handle it in such quantities).

Quote:
My goverment is not less corrupted than the goverment of any other country. As I said before, power corrupts.

Stop being such a mind-numbingly obtuse cretin, will you? How can you say that every leader everywhere is equally corrupted? So the politician who just earns a bit too much money for what her pencil-pushing job is really worth is as equally corrupted as one who steals millions of taxpayers' moneys for their own personal gains, who is also as equally corrupted as one who murder billions of his own people? How can you say that with a straight face?

Explain to me how Ayaan Hirsi Ali is corrupted, for example.

And you didn't answer the question at all. Why do you think that Canadian cops don't steal from us? I mean, you just attempted to refute that by saying, "every politician is equally corrupt because power corrupt", but the fact that Canadian police is not as corrupt as Greek police (from what you say about them) shows that you are wrong by definition.

Quote:
I do not think that manual labour is the only real work. I just know that its far more easy for the bosses to exploit a manual worker (who usually is very poor) than an office employee (they usually have more money than workers). I mentioned that in regatds to the candy world I said you live in. Cause if you haven't ever worked as a manual worker you cannot understand how the bosses treat their workers.

Of course I understand that workers can be exploited. This does not change the fact that YOU are the one who lives in a candy-coated land, since you have absolutely no clue about, well, anything, whether it's genetics, human psychology, history or sociology especially. I especially love that how in your fairy land, nobody will ever bully anyone else because of "fear of retaliation". :lol:

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UnserHeiligeTod
Lagompräst

Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:45 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:52 pm 
 

rexxz wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Actually, that's what most capitalists and politicians are. How do you think that they got power in the first place? Some kind of "magic fairy" gave it to them? Come on now. Don't believe in fairy tales. Power corrupts. C'est la vie. The only way for avoid corruption is when no one has power.


Maybe they got to that place legitimately? *gasp* Oh no!

Not here.

Just to clarify things, I don't agree with Mors' nonsense, I'm just saying there are always exceptions.
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666head
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 180
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:20 am 
 

I actually wouldn't mind if Chiapas and that whole region became a separate country, that way, us hardworking people in Nuevo Leon, Coahuila, Chiapas, Sonora, Durango, Baja California and Baja California Sur can stop paying their bills.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:08 am 
 

Veddartha wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:

EZLN is not based on violence. They have never used violence against innocents. Only when the army came to supress their revolution.


You are truly a natural fucking idiot. The uprise of EZLN was done with violence and after that the army supressed them.


The uprise of every revolution is done with violence. The uprise of Mexican War of Independence for example was done with violence. Don't you support the Mexican War of Independence?

rexxz wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Actually, that's what most capitalists and politicians are. How do you think that they got power in the first place? Some kind of "magic fairy" gave it to them? Come on now. Don't believe in fairy tales. Power corrupts. C'est la vie. The only way for avoid corruption is when no one has power.


Maybe they got to that place legitimately? *gasp* Oh no!


Point me out a very rich person that haven't exploited someone else. In order to become rich you have to step over dead bodies.

Morrigan wrote:
Yeah, it can't be personal qualities like leadership, intelligence, charisma or even simple luck... ALL people gain power through evil, corrupted means, without exceptions. :rolleyes:
By the way, you are confusing cause and effect. People gain power because of various factors, such as the ones I named, but if they become corrupt, it's an effect of them having this power (and that they cannot handle it in such quantities).


Personal qualities like leadership, intelligence, charisma etc. can make someone rich but within some limits. When one person controls 10% of Earth's wealth like Bill Gates for example it cannot be done with legal means.

I never said that all people that gain some power did it via corrupted means. I do not like to generalize. But when some individuals gain immense power and control half of the nation's wealth, you cannot say that they acquired these via hard work. It's common logic.

And I agree that power corrupts. That's why I believe when no one has power over another person the corruption will diminish.

Morrigan wrote:
Stop being such a mind-numbingly obtuse cretin, will you? How can you say that every leader everywhere is equally corrupted? So the politician who just earns a bit too much money for what her pencil-pushing job is really worth is as equally corrupted as one who steals millions of taxpayers' moneys for their own personal gains, who is also as equally corrupted as one who murder billions of his own people? How can you say that with a straight face?


Explain to me how Ayaan Hirsi Ali is corrupted, for example.[/quote]

Goverments are usually formed by "leaders" who steal millions of taxpayers' money for their own personal gain as you said. Some leaders which are not corrupted may exist but I cannot prove it as I don't know any of them. If someone has managed to become a leader via her pencil-pushing job then bravo to her. I don't like leaders in general but if a non-corrupted leader exists I can respect him. I don't know Ayaan Hirsi Ali but she seems decent.

Morrigan wrote:
And you didn't answer the question at all. Why do you think that Canadian cops don't steal from us? I mean, you just attempted to refute that by saying, "every politician is equally corrupt because power corrupt", but the fact that Canadian police is not as corrupt as Greek police (from what you say about them) shows that you are wrong by definition.


For me taxation is a form of theft (especially when pensions are not paid and people wait to reach the age of 65-70 in order to retire). So, I cannot see the State as something more than thieves. And cops protect them. That's what I meant. Also, in Greece a lot of cops have been involved in bank robberies or sell drugs. I do not know about Canada. I have never been there. The examples I give are only a part of what I see in my life. Still, I believe that Canadian citizens are taxated so ultimately your State steals from you too.

But anyway Morrigan and rexxz this thread is for the EZLN. If you want to continue this discussion we can do it via PMs or in another thread. Let's not derail this topic further as we are generally not going to agree.
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BobSaget
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:51 am 
 

In theory this group sounds great. What are their political objectives besides impeding the proliferation of neoliberalism, globalization, etc? And what philosophy do they espouse - Marxism, anarcho-syndicalism, socialism?

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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:30 am 
 

BobSaget wrote:
In theory this group sounds great. What are their political objectives besides impeding the proliferation of neoliberalism, globalization, etc? And what philosophy do they espouse - Marxism, anarcho-syndicalism, socialism?


They follow Zapatismo as they say. Zapatismo is a mix of Marxism and Anarchism so I'd call them Anarcho-syndicalists.
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BobSaget
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:40 am 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
BobSaget wrote:
In theory this group sounds great. What are their political objectives besides impeding the proliferation of neoliberalism, globalization, etc? And what philosophy do they espouse - Marxism, anarcho-syndicalism, socialism?


They follow Zapatismo as they say. Zapatismo is a mix of Marxism and Anarchism so I'd call them Anarcho-syndicalists.


If that's the case, I'm all for it then. So long as the population is educated on the matter, consent is ubiquitous, and moreover 3/4 the majority agrees with its implementation. In addition, all measures should be met to suppress any uprising of despotism or hierarchy.

It should also be stressed that deification of any one person is prohibited, and that the success of the system would result in a collective process, therefore no clique arises to control the masses and their communes.

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intothevoid
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:24 am 
 

Nazarenes impaled. this thread still lives ? Well, it's Mors, the guy with the undying stubborness, I should expect this.
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Jagged
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:35 am 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
What's exactly wrong with ETA?

This has got to be the dumbest question that I've ever read in my whole fucking life. Close to 36 years so far.

Mors_Gloria wrote:
A lot of people has died because of the Spanish / French occupation of Basque Country. Basque country should be free to rule itself as its life. For me Spanish and French control over Euskal Herria is a form of occupation.

And to be more precise, do you know how many Basques (or anarchists and socialists) was killed during the Francist regime? 150,000.

Are Spanish Catholics and Spanish Nationalists (they both supported Franco back in the day) sorry of that?

Just let them rule their location the way they want.

It truly shocks me to see how immensely ignorant to the Spanish history and reality you are but still dare to sell what you heard or read from partial people af if they were facts. Learn something:

1) It is an unquestionably true fact that Franco oppressed and tried to erase the Basque Country very own culture and tradition. That's what he did, or tried to do for that matter, with some other areas as well, such as Cataluña or Galicia. But guess what? Franco died in 1975, and so did his regime. Let's not forget we're talking about a dictator here, not about Spain as an oppressing state. There is a VERY substantial difference.

2) Yes, I agree with you. Every nation, country, area, village or neighbourhood has got a right to claim for independence. Also the Basque Country for whatever reason that the nationalists feel like giving out. Even though their demand has no solid basis, neither historically nor socially speaking. It's all fine to me, really... BUT... there's a civic way to achieve that, a politic way. In fact, this is exactly what the Lehendakari is trying to achieve through the official and diplomatic channels: he's currently trying to push a referendum so the Basques can decide whether they want independence or not.

3) There have been a myriad of different public polls going on about the independence thing among the Basques themselves and you know what? 65% of the Basque people do not want independence. Surprised?

4) I truly, deeply hope that the referendum is finally possible. I hope so because the Basques will have the right to freely decide over their independence. And once it happens and the Basques say "no, we don't want to become an independent country", all the outer-looking ignorants such as you will hopefully realize what the E.T.A. is all about: a bunch of psychopatic assassins that will never stop murdering innocent people, blackmailing people and terrorizing people, EVEN IF the referendum happened and EVEN IF the Basques themselves decided not to become an independent country, simply because they're just fucking criminals with no fucking politic purpose at all. They lost that 33 years ago.

You know... there's certainly the extreme right-winged bastards, but there's also the extreme left-winged bastards. Do not ever forget it's all REALLY about totalitarism in one direction or another.
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BobSaget
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:50 am 
 

Very interesting, thanks Jagged. 35% is certainly not sufficient to claim sovereignty in my opinion, but that is still somewhat substantiated. There would have to be an overwhelming majority for me to condone their sovereignty. Otherwise, I think the Basque region should be given much more autonomy, so as to mitigate ETA's activities.

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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:03 am 
 

Jagged wrote:
You know... there's certainly the extreme right-winged bastards, but there's also the extreme left-winged bastards. Do not ever forget it's all REALLY about totalitarism in one direction or another.


I agree. Stalinists and Maoists are as authoritarian as National Socialists are. Personally, I disagree with any form of totalitarianism. And I never said that I support ETA. I just don't think that they are terrorists. At least not bigger than the PP goverment (who gladly has lost the last two elections, but the PSOE follow the same politics in regards with the minorities).

intothevoid, I wasn't the one who necromanced the thread though ;)
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Jagged
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:23 am 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
I agree. Stalinists and Maoists are as authoritarian as National Socialists are. Personally, I disagree with any form of totalitarianism. And I never said that I support ETA. I just don't think that they are terrorists.

I never thought you support E.T.A., but as you've just stated, you don't think that they're terrorists. Well... That's exactly what they are, sorry to say. They ain't fighting for no shit but to try and impose their views onto others, including their Basque fellow countrymen. Which views are those, you may ask? Err... None? As I said before they lost all politic purpose 33 years ago. The dictator died. C'mon, let him rot in pain.

The paradox (and absolute nonsense) about the E.T.A. thing is that they started murdering people right after Franco's demise, at the exact time that the whole Spain was trying to get rid of so much lack of freedom.
Do you happen to know how many civilians has the E.T.A. murdered so far? Google a bit and get shocked. The immense majority of those victims were plain civilians that were unlucky enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. E.T.A. calls them "collateral victims". I guess we all are familiar with that demagogic concept, aren't we? It's just murder. And it's also terrorism because they terrorize people with their threats, their blackmails ("revolutionary tax", as they call it) and their random attacks.
Do you happen to know that the Basques themselves do have fear of speaking their views out in public because they might get threatened and/or beaten up and/or murdereded by the radicals, be it E.T.A. members or E.T.A. supporters (Jarrai, etc)?
I honestly would re-consider my thoughts on it if I was you.

Mors_Gloria wrote:
At least not bigger than the PP goverment (who gladly has lost the last two elections

State terrorism. Now that's another nice topic to discuss, yep.

Mors_Gloria wrote:
but the PSOE follow the same politics in regards with the minorities).

This is simply FALSE again. In terms of social progress, not a single previous government has done more for the minorities than the P.S.O.E. has for the last four years. Homosexual marriage, improved statutes of autonomy (especially for the so-called "peripheric nations" such as Basque Country and Cataluña), improved laws for abortion, better laws to fight sexist violence against women, subventions for the youth to get an appartment rented... Fuck, they're trying harder than anybody else before them. Of course there's still a zillion things to get improved, but hell, aren't they doing things.
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BobSaget
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 10:44 am 
 

Quote:
you don't think that they're terrorists. Well... That's exactly what they are, sorry to say. They ain't fighting for no shit but to try and impose their views onto others


they're terrorists to you. could be quite contrary to a handful of other persons.

I readily espouse the belief that the CIA are bona fide international terrorists, but many citizens of my country would otherwise coin them as heroes, and protectors of freedom, etc.

there is no objectivity to terrorism.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:14 am 
 

Jagged wrote:
I never thought you support E.T.A., but as you've just stated, you don't think that they're terrorists. Well... That's exactly what they are, sorry to say. They ain't fighting for no shit but to try and impose their views onto others, including their Basque fellow countrymen. Which views are those, you may ask? Err... None? As I said before they lost all politic purpose 33 years ago. The dictator died. C'mon, let him rot in pain.

The paradox (and absolute nonsense) about the E.T.A. thing is that they started murdering people right after Franco's demise, at the exact time that the whole Spain was trying to get rid of so much lack of freedom.
Do you happen to know how many civilians has the E.T.A. murdered so far? Google a bit and get shocked. The immense majority of those victims were plain civilians that were unlucky enough to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. E.T.A. calls them "collateral victims". I guess we all are familiar with that demagogic concept, aren't we? It's just murder. And it's also terrorism because they terrorize people with their threats, their blackmails ("revolutionary tax", as they call it) and their random attacks.
Do you happen to know that the Basques themselves do have fear of speaking their views out in public because they might get threatened and/or beaten up and/or murdereded by the radicals, be it E.T.A. members or E.T.A. supporters (Jarrai, etc)?
I honestly would re-consider my thoughts on it if I was you.


My answer is what I wrote before, my friend. If we are to consider them terrorists we have to consider several States and organizations as terrorist. Isn't the NATO terrorist? Belgrade bombings. Isn't the US goverment terrorist? Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam War. Isn't the CIA terrorist? Guantanamo Bay detention camp. If we are all ready to call these terrorists then I'm more than ready to call ETA terrorists too.

Jagged wrote:
State terrorism. Now that's another nice topic to discuss, yep.


Perfect topic but it belongs to another thread ;)

Jagged wrote:
This is simply FALSE again. In terms of social progress, not a single previous government has done more for the minorities than the P.S.O.E. has for the last four years. Homosexual marriage, improved statutes of autonomy (especially for the so-called "peripheric nations" such as Basque Country and Cataluña), improved laws for abortion, better laws to fight sexist violence against women, subventions for the youth to get an appartment rented... Fuck, they're trying harder than anybody else before them. Of course there's still a zillion things to get improved, but hell, aren't they doing things.


I re-checked the article I've read in Amnesty International and it refered to PP goverment.
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Jagged
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:24 am 
 

BobSaget wrote:
Quote:
you don't think that they're terrorists. Well... That's exactly what they are, sorry to say. They ain't fighting for no shit but to try and impose their views onto others


they're terrorists to you. could be quite contrary to a handful of other persons.

I readily espouse the belief that the CIA are bona fide international terrorists, but many citizens of my country would otherwise coin them as heroes, and protectors of freedom, etc.

there is no objectivity to terrorism.

I'll take it as "it doesn't exist such thing as objectivity" then. I might, or might not, agree with that statement, but I choose not to phylosophize over it concerning this kind of issues (I get your point though).

A terrorist is someone who terrorizes others. No matter how puerile this might sound, it still is a good definition from a semantic point of view (so that we all can understand each other). Sure there's interpretations to it, just like there's zillions of them to any other term or concept, but the sheer fact is that those people, the E.T.A., terrorize others. Many others. Therefore it's very righteous to call them terrorists. Yep, just like the C.I.A. (same dog different collar).

In all truth, I couldn't care less what the E.T.A. supporters might think. Or what some citizens of your country might think of the C.I.A.
Brainwashed, tamed and non-critical people have never been my cup of tea :)
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