What's your views of the Zapatistas Army Of National Liberation in Chiapas? Do you support their independence?

Personally, I support their cause and really how couldn't I? Their ideology is against neolibarlism, against corporate globalization. They also seek to be auto-organised by their traditions and to run their state from the bottom-up. So, discuss.

EDIT: typo

Sure; I've said many times right here that I support the autonomy of whoever wants it. Is it a seperate nation they want, or just autonomy within Mexico? It seems like too small an area to be an effective national polity to me, but you could say the same of Kosovo, and there are smaller independent states (Liechtenstein and Andorra spring to mind, as does Singapore).

Subcomandante Marcos must have an awesome balaclava collection by now, but I think people would take him more seriously if he promoted himself to Comandante.

It wants autonomy and tries to spread its ideology in Mexico beyond the Chiapas

Obviously you don't know nothing about those bastards except what the media tells you. Damn, how I hate outsiders that come and start talking shit about things they don't know at all.

Do you support their cause? The truth is that those idiots have no cause. May be you didn't know, but Marcos is a fucking joke, and a cacique that gives him a great life from the poor indians' work. And, may be you didn't know either, almost no indians support him; in fact, the EZLN armies ostracize every fucking person that refuses to sacrifice his almost non-existent patrimony to the "comon wealth" that, as with bolschevism, immediately passes to the hands of the select communist elite.

If you thought that indians were behind this, you're very wrong. The only supporters of that idiocy are half assed communist, bourgeois and coward students from the FFyL, of the UNAM.

So, please stop making ignorant statements about things you don't know at all.

M_G, are you joking?!

All these people care for is power. Hell, that idiot of a Marcos isn't even an indian himself. Guess where he gets all his 'knowledge' from?

Right. Stalin.

I agree with you. All these fucking "revolutionary" movements such as the EZLN and the FARC are the fucking reason of never-ending conflicts in their respective countries. In Spain we have the same fucking problem with goddamn ETA; fortunately, that's not even quarter as big as the FARC or the EZLN.

I don't think it's wise to "support the autonomy of whoever wants it". You do need to consider the effects it will have on the country it wishes to split from and other countries in the region, not to mention the effects on itself. An immature, uncalculated and controversial declaration of independence can cause economic problems in both the newly-formed nation and the country it was part of, as well as the threat of violence in the region and political uproar, causing more deep divides. You also need to consider the political and social stance of the pro-independence side and whether or not their actions will actually benefit the population they hold power over or make their lives worse.

No, I am not joking. If they want to control the area that they inhabit then I'm in for it.



I do not get my information from the media.

And are you sure that no Indians support them? Ahpuch Oztoc aren't Indians? Yaotl Mictlan aren't Indians? Wow, that's news to me and certainly news to them



What's exactly wrong with ETA?

Maybe the fact that they're a bunch of fucking murderers ?
lol

I live in Bruges. What if I decide I want control of Bruges? Would you support me then as well? How about I start a neo-communist "army", fool all the people into believing they will be better off with me as leader ... I guess you'd support me, huh.



Hitler was elected in a democratic way, the people were behind him. Doesn't really have to anything with his intentions ... same thing goes for the EZLN.

I don't know if most inhabitants of that region support indepedence but if they would, that still doesn't justify it.



What the hell is your problem? I know a lot of people who have suffered immensely, some even DIED because of these terrorists. Do you have any idea how incredibly offensive/insulting that question is?

That's like asking an American "what's exactly wrong with Bin Laden" ...

It seems as though the majority of the people in Chiapas do not actually want independence, so my support of independence for those who want it would not come into play here. And again, on an abstract level, obviously if the majority of the people don't want independence, it seems unlikely the pro-independence side would get much traction. In practice, this is generally how it works out.

On the other hand, the normal reaction to popular moves for independence in recent (if not, in fact throughout) history is that the majority of people in a region support independence (Kurds, Palestinians, Tibetans, Uighurs, Kosovar Albanians, Chechens, Abkhazians, the Baltic States mid c.20, Somalis in SE Ethiopia, Eritreans, etc.), but it is brutally suppressed by whatever larger entity they wish to break away from, usually with catastrophic loss of life. Given the choice between half-assed, premature moves toward independence that never get off the ground due to popular ambivalence and widespread aspirations of autonomy or nationhood crushed by greedy oppressors, I'll take the half-assed every single time.

However, it does seem as if Marcos has really just started a "hobby revolution" for his own glory; you might have noticed my not-so-subtle mockery of his balaclavas and his "rank." I decided not to make fun of his retarded chicken, that just seemed cruel.



If a MAJORITY of the people in Bruges wanted it, sure. And if they did, you wouldn't need to start an army, you could probably just pull away by referendum; it's not as if Belgium is such a stable country to begin with. If I were one of those nice Flemings, I don't know how I'd put up with a bunch of smelly Walloons either. That was a joke; I have nothing against Walloons. But you're comparing apples to oranges, really, and making a mockery of the genuine aspirations of people suffering all over the world. But yes, if you did as you said, and the people of Bruges supported you and wanted independence, I would support you.

Oh, and somewhat off topic, but humorous nonetheless:

Guys, don't let Mors_Gloria get to you. I know, it's difficult to resist gaping at such profoundly ignorant and clueless statements - don't make the same mistake as I did in wasting your time trying to reason with someone so completely out of touch with reality.


Off-topic, but Bruges has to be the most beautiful city I have ever visited. I would say "lucky you" but you're probably jaded by the tourists, so I wouldn't know. Anyway, Bruges rocks.

Yeah that was a pretty stupid comparison, just wanted to point out anybody eager for power could start their own group to claim independence in whatever region of the world ... just because most of the population believes that person doesn't justify it. Sometimes this is indeed necesarry, but in the case of the EZLN it's not. Just for the record: I do support independence for a couple of regions and I do realize not all of the "we want to be independent" people are idiots.



It's not that I'm annoyed because I disagree with him, but because he profoundly insulted me and anybody else who has lost friends because of ETA.

I don't think M_G's ignorant, but that one sentence is (imo) not acceptable.



Glad to hear that! Such a beautiful city, yet most locals don't care about it because they have never been elsewhere. The tourists are alright, luckily they never go to the real beautiful places (something I never understood). Getting really off topic, but what did you visit here?

If you personally decided to take over Bruges I wouldn't support you. If the majority of people in Bruges wanted to be independent then I would support them wholeheartely no matter what their ideology was. Personally, I'm against communism but that doesn't mean that if the majority of people that live in my area wanted to be independent under a communist rule I would be against them. I would just flee or fight in guerilla groups.



Marcos does not aim to expand. He is not an imperialist like Hitler (Lebensraum anyone?).



A lot of people has died because of the Spanish / French occupation of Basque Country. Basque country should be free to rule itself as its life. For me Spanish and French control over Euskal Herria is a form of occupation.

And to be more precise, do you know how many Basques (or anarchists and socialists) was killed during the Francist regime? 150,000.

Are Spanish Catholics and Spanish Nationalists (they both supported Franco back in the day) sorry of that?

Just let them rule their location the way they want.

This makes no sense. If you would not be against them, why would you fight them?

I would fight them cause I want to be truly autonomous and not under a commie rule. However, if they revolted against the current state in order to be autonomous (even under a commie rule) I would fight along with them in the revolution. I'd just continue to fight for even greater autonomy after the end of the revolution.

So where do you draw the line? Whenever everyone in the territory is happy? Solum Ipsum?

The line in what? Autonomy? I do not cross such lines. I believe that we need to reach the maximum level of autonomy (that means no goverment).

But let's not hijack the thread. If you want to ask me anything about the above send me a PM.

What the hell ? What age are you ? So you believe that terrorist assholes who use violent and fatal methods of protest against these "occupators" are doing something right ? Christ impaled. The Basque region is by NO way capable of holding it's own in terms of... well, anything. And you wouldn't know, since you've never BEEN there, whereas many people who are opposed to your ideas HAVE. And France and Spain are by NO means occupating the zone through the use of brutal and violent methods, though I have to agree, they both at some given time have tried to absorb the cultural differences. But this is now over, the Basques are free to have their culture, and yet you support a full out separation through violence ?
Clean your act up.

I support a full out separation but without violence. I believe in non-violent means of revolution. However, when Spanish and French forces use violence towards Basques every day (cause taking over their resources and wealth is a violent act) I cannot see how a non-violent revolution could succed. The goverments leave ETA no choice.

I know nothing of the ETA, or any of these other 'terrorist' groups, but I do think that is a group of people -- like Euskal Herria or Kosovo -- want their independence, they have a right to their freedom.

Personally, I'd like to see Wales, Cornwall, Scotland and ALL of Ireland as their own independent nations again.

Hell, why not Brittany, even?

Edit: I'm such a Celtist.

Batasuna, ETA's political party never had more than 15% of the votes in the Basque region.

The governments don't leave ETA any choice? What the fuck is wrong with you? These guys blow up airports, kill random people and kidnap innocent citizens.

It's true that cruelties were commited against Basque people, yet we all now this has stopped a long time ago. Nobody nowadays has anything against them. Their language is official, they have their own parliament, they are encouraged to keep their own culture. What more do you want? Independence?

Too bad not even a fifth of the Basques WANT to be independent ... and even if 99% of them would want an independent state, does that justify murder?

You have deeply offended me, everybody who has had pain because of ETA, the Basque people (you insinuate they support these terrorists) ... please fuck off with your immature nonsense. I know I am derailing this thread but I couldn't care less; I will not accept these horrible statements and even less will I accept ridiculisation of hundreds of dead people, their families, anybody who cared about them or anybody who doesn't like the killing of innocent men.

Mahatma Ghandi would have some words with you.

Like I said: Mors Gloria is just completely clueless and ignorant, so there's no need to be "offended". Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity.

Who the fuck, aside from the people murdered by ETA, has died with this "occupation" of the Basque Country ?
lol

You don't have fucking idea of what you're talking about.

My father and my mother are both Catholic and believe in an united Spain and I can tell you they hated the Fascist regime. Anyway, what the fuck does the people killed by the motherfucking Francisco Franco have to do with some crazy bastards killing people for some stupid reason ? Whatever Franco did doesn't justify what ETA has done because he did it to all Spaniards, not only Basque people.

So that you know: the votes for PNB (which has an ambiguous nationalist position) and any of the parties which support ETA sumed have never reached a 50%; independetists are a minority in the Basque Country. Another interesting fact: some time ago the PNB said they would set up a referendum for Basque Independence which is to be voted on October 2008 and curiously, on the last national elections they've lost all regions of the Basque Country.

From 1984 to 1986 Basques were attacked by Grupos Antiterroristas de Liberación that was financed by the Ministry Of Interior.

Spanish Goverment is not made of saints. Especially, now that the Popular Party is in power. Read the reports from Amnesty Internationl. Here's the link -> Don't stretch the screen.

Seconded. He lives in a world of abstract forms where context is not featured into his calculation of which action is preferable. His ideal state is some sort of anarchy where people live in small clusters and never fight each other. This worldview ignores some key observations about the nature of human societies. It rightly presumes that human groups must have in-group loyalty (often to the exclusion of others) in order to remain extant. Unfortunately, a direct consequence of this fact is that groups tend to compete with other such groups. Larger groups are more powerful, so larger groups will tend to win out over smaller ones. This translates very well into the economic state of today's world. Larger economies are more successful than smaller, more limited ones, which means that humans will tend to inherently gravitate to become a part of a larger group.

Mors. This post should stop the oncoming surge of stupidity emanating from your posts dealing with separatist groups. What is the percentage that these separatist groups get at elections ? It is, without a doubt, fairly low for support of a separation. Let people that actually live in these parts of the world choose to do something of their situation. Involving yourself in situations you are far from truly understanding is seen as pedantism of the worst kind. Of course, I can't see myself influencing the way you think, as you have obviously shown a lot of stubborness on more subjects than we can count. Just realize how terrible you sound with arguments as weak as those you set up.

That's exactly what I do my friend I've talked with people from Mexico that support the EZLN, from Basque Country that support the Basque Independence and from many other places that support national-liberation views. I've even talked to people that are campaigning for the independence of Inner Mongolia. And from those sources I've gathered that this is what the people of these areas want. And if they choose to be autonomous I have no reason to be against it. As it happened with Kosovar Albanians (however, I want the NATO and UN troops to leave Kosovo as soon as possible but that's another story).

So you're saying he's a teenager?

It's a very plausible explanation.

Again, you fail, for several reasons, but I'll name just two:

1. At least two members of Yaotl Mictlan are actually white (just as Marcos), while the other two are mestizos: there's not a single indian in that band.

2. There's a white and two mestizos in Ahpuch Oztoc. No indians are involved in this project.

As you can see, the members of both bands are nothing more than outdated and brainwashed chauvinists.

Just to let you know, all the alleged "revolutionary indigenist movements" are conceived and managed by whites: they think that true indians are so weak, stupid and utterly defenseless that they have to come and get them out of the pool of shit they well-deservedly live in. Pity is the worst form of discrimination I can think of.

Again you fail. It is not because onegroup wants autonomy and claims everybody wants it as well that everyone wants it. As much as I admire you sticking to your ideas, I have to say you constantly take out context and real situations when presenting your ideas.

Fail. You know, PP is NOT in power since 2004 and have never been in power in Euskadi. They lost 2004 elections and they lost again in 2008. It is now PSOE (Spanish "Socialist Worker's" Party) who is in power since that, and I'm gonna tell you, since it seems your lack of information is total, that they have gone under a lot of criticism as a result of their attempts of negotiation with ETA, which failed when they killed two people in Madrid's airport. And before that, PP also tried a negotiation which also failed. There has been plenty of choice for ETA before.

Basque people have been opressed in the past, that's true, just as the whole fucking country. Spain had to go through 40 years of a fascist dictatorship where not only Euskadi was oppressed while Europe and America chose to ignore this. The thing is, nowadays you can't possibly talk of an oppression in an area that has its own autonomy. Fuck, they almost have more rights than the rest of the spanish. They have their own language, public institutuions, governments and justice.

Batasuna's support is well under 15% of the voters nowadays. And even if the whole Basque country supported ETA, their ways would still make their cause illegitimate. PNV (Basque Nationalist Party) has a much bigger support as a democratical party. However, their ideology has its roots in a bunch of catholic and racist crap. I'm no nationalist. Not spanish nationalist, not anything. As a leftist guy, I don't get how happily such right-wing nationalist bullshit can be adopted by left-wing parties.

I knew that PP lost a few days ago but I thought it was in local elections not in a national level. Thanks for correcting me there

Euskadi were not the only ones that were oppresed under Franco. Anarchists, republicans, communists and other seccesionists (most notably Catalans) were oppresed. Generally, all non-Francists were oppresed.

And yes, I do not agree with PNV's ideology because I am not a nationalist. I hope one day the national-liberation movements are going to forget the nationalist part of them. They do not need nationalism in order to be autonomous.

I wouldn't consider nationalist movements in Spain trying to actually separate themselves from the country. Except the most radical movements, like ETA and Batasuna, the nationalism of PNV and Cataluña/Catalonia/whatever it is called in English consists more of a series of reclamations to the central government for more autonomy to the region (what it is called "comunidad autonoma", roughly translated as autonomous community). This was the case with the recently approved catalan statute of autonomy and is the case with the more controversial Plan Ibarretxe (Ibarretxe = lehendakari = Euskadi governor), which, though is being presented by the right wing parties as an attempt to break Spain. These "moderate" nationalist parties are the ones that get the bigger support in their respective areas, and not ETA, or Terra Lliure (catalan nationalist terrorist group).

And, in my humble opinion, all these demands have their roots in Catalonia and Euskadi being two of the most developed areas in Spain, thus having to contribute more to the national economy than, for example, Asturias, a post-industrial/mining depressed area, where I live. In the end, their goal is having this money stay in their area, something that I find unfair to the rest of the country.

You have a different language up there is that right? If that's so then why don't you want to be independent? As long as the language you speak is different then in my opinion it would be better to claim autonomy.

Well, we have bable, which is, in fact, a matter of conflict since it isn't recognised as an official language, but rather a dialect (just as many other languages in Spain, like the ones that are spoken in Andalucía, or Valencia). It is not compulsory to learn it in schools or for public institutions to use it, though it is starting to be used along with spanish.

And, as in practically all of the autonomous communities / areas / whatever in Spain, there are nationalist parties, mainly letf-inspired. However, their claims, rather than independence, are again a bigger degree of autonomy, and specially, an increase in the government's help to the development of Asturias. As I said, this is a depressed area, which enjoyed a good level of development until more or less the 70s, as it was one of the most important industrial areas in Spain (with Euskadi), because of the siderurgical industry and the coal mines. Nowadays the mines are practically exhausted and it's cheaper to import coal from Poland or South Africa rather than to exploit Asturias coal mines. This has caused a big loss in our region's economy, and to this we have to add all the shipyards and naval building industry, which were also very important to Asturias, and specially to Gijon, the town where I live, closing down.
As a result of this, Asturias has become one of the poorest regions in Europe, acording to the UE. Many people here find it impossible to find a decent job, and emigration to other parts of Spain has been a problem for quite a long time now. And so, these parties want our government to increase their help in regenerating Asturian economy and industry, creating more jobs, etc, something that I find quite difficult nowadays, given that our most important natural resource has ran out.

Don't remember well why I said all that, but the fact is that, while I support this claims, I think independence is not a suitable solution, as Asturias is just not capable of mantaining itself as an independent country. Sure, we have our history (which is, in fact, quite more rich and interesting than that of the whole rest of Spain, IMO), and our language, but these things are just not enough to make a country out of a poor region.

Edit: As for autonomy, we have an amount of autonomy as a result of the current community system. Of course, more can be given, but it seems not to be of big interest given the poor support pro-autonomy parties get in Asturias, which is much less than in Euskadi or Catalonia. I, myself, think that, given the amount of more or less diferentiated (does that word exist?) areas, and the fact that, historically, Spain resulted as a union of three separated kingdoms (Castilla, Aragon and Navarra), the best solution for the national organisation would be a federal nation. However, right wing parties see this as the actual break of Spain, and are strongly opposed to that. And PSOE, which is no longer a proper left wing party, is more or less of the same opinion. As a vast majority of the votes in the parliament is required to change the constitution, this is going to stay the same for a while, I think.

I can understand the situation exactly. I live in a poor area as well (Aigaleo, the city I currently live, is one of the poor cities of Athens and Peristeri, the city I originate from, is one of the most overpopulated cities of Greece) and our "socialist" party resembled the conservative one when it had power. Are all members of Socialist International such hypocrites?

On a side note though I support Sporting Gijon in the Spanish Segunda Division. How's the team?

It seems that the concept of socialist party has devaluated in the last time.

As for the team, it's fucked up, as always. A lot of spirit and no money. Anyway, this is the year when they're going to get to the first division, just like the ten years before
I'm not a football aficionado, though