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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:31 am 
 

redeemerofchaos wrote:
I hate homosexual men, but i love homosexual/bi-sexual women


Good sir, I believe you have the intelligence to rival a sack of hammers. Dumb ones.
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truvelocity
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:01 am
Posts: 308
Location: Egypt
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:35 pm 
 

:rolleyes:
My thoughts exactly!

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agentsteel666
(Short) Buspass Holder

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 456
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 1:02 pm 
 

AngelicStorm wrote:
Lord_Sauron wrote:
My thought about homosexuality is simple:

If all people on the Earth were gay, human race would dissapear in 100 years. That means that we should fight versus homosexuality and try help gay people to became normal, beause homosexuality isn't normal. It should be threatened like a disease, and try to cure those who are afected.


As MusicalFreedom said, that will never happen, so to use that as an arguement against homosexuality is just a complete nonsense. Even if there was NO homophobia in the world at all, there would still be a lot more hetero people than gay people. And exactly how is homosexuality "not normal"? You can't choose who you're attracted to. To a gay person, being attracted to someone of the same sex is as natural as being attracted to a woman is to you, or being attracted to a man is to me. And they probably find the idea of intimate contact with the opposite sex to be disgusting. Just ask yourself, could you "choose" to start being attracted to men? Unless the answer to that is yes, then i think you should realise how absurd it is to say that being gay isnt normal.

And the state of humanity anyway, the human race dying off wouldnt be a bad thing really...


I think I could choose to be attracted to men given the right circumstances and times. Men in the age of the Roman Empire had sex with each other by choice because things were different back then. I don't think it's impossible to willingly change your attractions you have. I'm not going to bother trying though because I like women and I don't want to be bi.

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
bansheekiller wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong, not from any religious stand point. Your brain tells you to be attracted to women and women parts. Obviously, gay people must be screwed up in the brain.


Hey, our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes! Better ban clothes!


Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 18585
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:56 pm 
 

AngelicStorm wrote:
redeemerofchaos wrote:
I hate homosexual men, but i love homosexual/bi-sexual women


Sheesh...

Out of all homophobic statements, these ones are the most ridiculous. I can understand some men being attracted to 2 women being together, while not being for 2 gay men. But i cannot for the life of me understand why some guys think men being gay is wrong, but its okay for women to be gay. Its simply they're attracted to one, but not the other. Which is a pathetic reason to negatively judge anything. If women can be attracted to each other, then it just makes logical sense that would also apply to men.


Yeah, and at the very least, homosexual men = more women to choose from, from that more narrow-minded point of view. No logic in hating them.
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Noobbot
Mors_Gloria + Thesaurus

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 426
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:36 pm 
 

redeemerofchaos wrote:
I hate homosexual men, but i love homosexual/bi-sexual women


Hey guy, you just proved that you're a big-balled, purely heterosexual bad ass with that statement. Or so you think.

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AngelicStorm
High and Mighty

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:16 am
Posts: 603
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:36 pm 
 

agentsteel666 wrote:
I think I could choose to be attracted to men given the right circumstances and times. Men in the age of the Roman Empire had sex with each other by choice because things were different back then. I don't think it's impossible to willingly change your attractions you have. I'm not going to bother trying though because I like women and I don't want to be bi.


No...i think the 2 things are entirely seperate. I could choose to kiss another woman, or sleep with one. But that doesn't mean I'd enjoy it or get any pleasure out of it. I cant choose to be "attracted" to women, because I'm just not. At least not on a sexual level. I don't think you can choose who you're attracted to. It's just an instinctive, and natural reaction. If I see a nice guy, and I'm attracted to him, I'm not making a conscience decision to be attracted to him, I just am.

I think in the Roman Empire, there appeared to be more homosexuality, but i think that was only because it wasn't frowned upon like it is in most western societies nowadays. I'm sure even in this day and age, the true extent of homosexuality is not known. Seeing as homophobia still means a lot of gays remain in the closet.

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agentsteel666
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:45 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:49 am 
 

AngelicStorm wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
I think I could choose to be attracted to men given the right circumstances and times. Men in the age of the Roman Empire had sex with each other by choice because things were different back then. I don't think it's impossible to willingly change your attractions you have. I'm not going to bother trying though because I like women and I don't want to be bi.


No...i think the 2 things are entirely seperate. I could choose to kiss another woman, or sleep with one. But that doesn't mean I'd enjoy it or get any pleasure out of it. I cant choose to be "attracted" to women, because I'm just not. At least not on a sexual level. I don't think you can choose who you're attracted to. It's just an instinctive, and natural reaction. If I see a nice guy, and I'm attracted to him, I'm not making a conscience decision to be attracted to him, I just am.

I think in the Roman Empire, there appeared to be more homosexuality, but i think that was only because it wasn't frowned upon like it is in most western societies nowadays. I'm sure even in this day and age, the true extent of homosexuality is not known. Seeing as homophobia still means a lot of gays remain in the closet.


But I still think that you can choose your attractions to an extent. I bet that if it was the proper thing to do to be gay that I would have chosen to be attracted to other men at an early age and then as I grew through puberty I would get more and more attracted until it is instinctive. Now I'm attracted to women by lust alone, but I chose at a young age that I wanted to be that way. There is a choice involved in it; at least there was for me. I could choose to be attracted to other males if I wanted to.

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Lady_Gorgoroth
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:19 am
Posts: 5
Location: Ghana
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:42 am 
 

Hell, one of the most brutal men in the world-Gaahl of Gorgoroth admitted he is gay. I have tons of guy friends and I am bi myself. I don't think the metal scene has any room to be discriminatory or biased against any homosexuals when most of the men sport long hair and tight leather pants.
Metal is pretty gay when you think about it.

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rexxz
Retired

Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:45 pm
Posts: 8680
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:44 am 
 

Please keep the conversation in the Symposium useful and productive.

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PaleEnchantress
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:40 am
Posts: 3
Location: Jordan
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:46 am 
 

Dont you think it's kinda hot when two hot guys are making out???
nothing wrong with love.
i'm Arab we like our men to be MEN though!

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:43 am 
 

agentsteel666 wrote:
Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?


Clothes aren't a natural thing. We wear them now primarily because of the concept of shame and modesty, which are constructs of society, not instinct. This can be seen in how some cultures don't see nudity as wrong at all.

If it weren't for the Ice Age, it's likely our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have developed the concept of clothing. Covering ourselves is not something our instinctive, animalistic psyche tells us to do.
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Lord_Sauron
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:47 am
Posts: 455
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:29 am 
 

bansheekiller wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong, not from any religious stand point. Your brain tells you to be attracted to women and women parts. Obviously, gay people must be screwed up in the brain.


Yes, I agree with you. You seem to be the only one in this topic with some brain in your head.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6329
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:44 am 
 

Lord_Sauron wrote:
bansheekiller wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong, not from any religious stand point. Your brain tells you to be attracted to women and women parts. Obviously, gay people must be screwed up in the brain.


Yes, I agree with you. You seem to be the only one in this topic with some brain in your head.
As well as the only other person unable to back up their claims and arguments. While it's not fair to expect homophobic people to make any proper arguments, this is the symposium. Debate goes here, separate baseless claims go to 4chan.
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agentsteel666
(Short) Buspass Holder

Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:45 pm
Posts: 456
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:30 pm 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?


Clothes aren't a natural thing. We wear them now primarily because of the concept of shame and modesty, which are constructs of society, not instinct. This can be seen in how some cultures don't see nudity as wrong at all.

If it weren't for the Ice Age, it's likely our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have developed the concept of clothing. Covering ourselves is not something our instinctive, animalistic psyche tells us to do.


Yeah but that's what I'm saying that we have to wear clothes to keep warm.

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Lord_Sauron
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:47 am
Posts: 455
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:54 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Lord_Sauron wrote:
bansheekiller wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong, not from any religious stand point. Your brain tells you to be attracted to women and women parts. Obviously, gay people must be screwed up in the brain.


Yes, I agree with you. You seem to be the only one in this topic with some brain in your head.
As well as the only other person unable to back up their claims and arguments. While it's not fair to expect homophobic people to make any proper arguments, this is the symposium. Debate goes here, separate baseless claims go to 4chan.


If you want I could make arguments, but gays are just not worth of my typing longer than 1 minute.

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DDgrande
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 1:00 pm
Posts: 6
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:12 pm 
 

I don't care if someone chooses to be gay/lesbian/bi, whatever. But its moronic that in some places lesbians and gays can adopt children. Having 2 dads or 2 mothers. That a really healthy way to grow up. :|

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DrSeuss
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 261
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:20 pm 
 

agentsteel666 wrote:
AngelicStorm wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
I think I could choose to be attracted to men given the right circumstances and times. Men in the age of the Roman Empire had sex with each other by choice because things were different back then. I don't think it's impossible to willingly change your attractions you have. I'm not going to bother trying though because I like women and I don't want to be bi.


No...i think the 2 things are entirely seperate. I could choose to kiss another woman, or sleep with one. But that doesn't mean I'd enjoy it or get any pleasure out of it. I cant choose to be "attracted" to women, because I'm just not. At least not on a sexual level. I don't think you can choose who you're attracted to. It's just an instinctive, and natural reaction. If I see a nice guy, and I'm attracted to him, I'm not making a conscience decision to be attracted to him, I just am.

I think in the Roman Empire, there appeared to be more homosexuality, but i think that was only because it wasn't frowned upon like it is in most western societies nowadays. I'm sure even in this day and age, the true extent of homosexuality is not known. Seeing as homophobia still means a lot of gays remain in the closet.


But I still think that you can choose your attractions to an extent. I bet that if it was the proper thing to do to be gay that I would have chosen to be attracted to other men at an early age and then as I grew through puberty I would get more and more attracted until it is instinctive. Now I'm attracted to women by lust alone, but I chose at a young age that I wanted to be that way. There is a choice involved in it; at least there was for me. I could choose to be attracted to other males if I wanted to.


Anyone could have sex with anyone. And your comment about the Roman Empire was inaccurate. There was more practice of homosexuality, but the practice was mainly political. Their views of sex was different than ours today. They engaged in homosexual behavior for social reasons as well as a social construct. Seeing as it was commonplace for men to be attracted to young feminine boys, but it was illegal and socially unacceptable for two free male citizens to engage in sex with each other.

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:25 pm 
 

agentsteel666 wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?


Clothes aren't a natural thing. We wear them now primarily because of the concept of shame and modesty, which are constructs of society, not instinct. This can be seen in how some cultures don't see nudity as wrong at all.

If it weren't for the Ice Age, it's likely our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have developed the concept of clothing. Covering ourselves is not something our instinctive, animalistic psyche tells us to do.


Yeah but that's what I'm saying that we have to wear clothes to keep warm.


Then you've entirely missed the point.
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DisembowelMe
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:59 am
Posts: 522
Location: Iceland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:24 pm 
 

DDgrande wrote:
I don't care if someone chooses to be gay/lesbian/bi, whatever. But its moronic that in some places lesbians and gays can adopt children. Having 2 dads or 2 mothers. That a really healthy way to grow up. :|


Why shouldn't it be? Please back up your claims.

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DrSeuss
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 261
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:27 pm 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?


Clothes aren't a natural thing. We wear them now primarily because of the concept of shame and modesty, which are constructs of society, not instinct. This can be seen in how some cultures don't see nudity as wrong at all.

If it weren't for the Ice Age, it's likely our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have developed the concept of clothing. Covering ourselves is not something our instinctive, animalistic psyche tells us to do.


Yeah but that's what I'm saying that we have to wear clothes to keep warm.


Then you've entirely missed the point.


You can't really say that our animalistic instinct wasn't the one governing our clothing. Our animalistic instinct's most basic function is self preservation; during the ice age, the cold was threatening us, thus man innovated and created clothing. Think of it as a domino effect. It was a necessity for survival, thus could be deduced as natural.

Also, that hypothesis aside. How to you explain uncontacted tribes people from tropical areas who wear clothing? Take for instance the Sentinelese from India or certain tribes of the amazon?

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 18585
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:32 pm 
 

DDgrande wrote:
I don't care if someone chooses to be gay/lesbian/bi, whatever. But its moronic that in some places lesbians and gays can adopt children. Having 2 dads or 2 mothers. That a really healthy way to grow up. :|

It certainly isn't unhealthy. It isn't normal, and it certainly will produce different results than a "normal" parenting, but that isn't to say whether these results will be good or bad.
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CountBlagorath
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:11 pm
Posts: 1042
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:01 pm 
 

My point of view is this. If your gay or what ever. don't tell me that you are. It's not that I'm a homophobe, it's just that I don't want to know.
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:06 am 
 

DrSeuss wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?


Clothes aren't a natural thing. We wear them now primarily because of the concept of shame and modesty, which are constructs of society, not instinct. This can be seen in how some cultures don't see nudity as wrong at all.

If it weren't for the Ice Age, it's likely our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have developed the concept of clothing. Covering ourselves is not something our instinctive, animalistic psyche tells us to do.


Yeah but that's what I'm saying that we have to wear clothes to keep warm.


Then you've entirely missed the point.


You can't really say that our animalistic instinct wasn't the one governing our clothing. Our animalistic instinct's most basic function is self preservation; during the ice age, the cold was threatening us, thus man innovated and created clothing. Think of it as a domino effect. It was a necessity for survival, thus could be deduced as natural.

Also, that hypothesis aside. How to you explain uncontacted tribes people from tropical areas who wear clothing? Take for instance the Sentinelese from India or certain tribes of the amazon?


It doesn't really matter, my point was that people who make the "It's not natural!" claim are rather hypocritical.
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AngelicStorm
High and Mighty

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:16 am
Posts: 603
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 11:09 am 
 

agentsteel666 wrote:
But I still think that you can choose your attractions to an extent. I bet that if it was the proper thing to do to be gay that I would have chosen to be attracted to other men at an early age and then as I grew through puberty I would get more and more attracted until it is instinctive. Now I'm attracted to women by lust alone, but I chose at a young age that I wanted to be that way. There is a choice involved in it; at least there was for me. I could choose to be attracted to other males if I wanted to.


Well, the world we are brought up in, constantly tells us homosexuality is wrong. (For males especially) Whether that be from family, or other children at school. In fact, even the word "gay" has picked up a new life to describe EVERYTHING negative, stupid, or wrong. People think this is a harmless term, that is not always used negatively towards homosexuals. But the initial use of the word being used in those terms, began because being gay was classed as a bad thing, and a negative thing. So, in our society, in the main, from an early age we are taught one way or another, that being gay is wrong, or at the very least lesser to heterosexuality.

Its interesting you say that you could be attracted to males if you chose to. I dont know a single gay person who has said their sexuality is a choice. Indeed, ive heard lots of gay people saying they wish they could be straight, because their lives would be so much easier if they weren't gay. Lots of gay people risk rejection from their families, abuse, and even physical violence being directed at them merely because they're gay. I find it very hard to believe that most people would open themselves up to all that if they had a choice not to do so. And I think we all know that some gays try and "make themselves straight" by forcing themselves to be with the opposite sex even if they're not physically attracted to them. Seemingly in an attempt to "cure" their homosexuality. (Being in the closet, for want of a better term)

I personally, don't think we can choose our sexuality. Like most teenagers, I was curious about sexuality, and wondered what it would be like to be with another woman. But ultimately, those thoughts never excited me, or turned me on in the same way that the same thoughts about men did. At no point did I "choose" to fancy men, I just did. I'm not saying it's impossible to choose your sexuality to some extent. At least for some people. I have heard some say we're all bi-sexual, or at least have the potential to be. I don't believe that to be true. I believe some people can go one way or the other, and end up "choosing" their preffered sex of potential partners. This only applies to the miniority though, and for most of us, sexuality is not a choice.

PaleEnchantress wrote:
Dont you think it's kinda hot when two hot guys are making out???
nothing wrong with love.
i'm Arab we like our men to be MEN though!


It's definitely far hotter than two girls making out anyway! :P Though i can't say it does anything for me personally. I do think it's kinda cute though.

I don't think in Arab nations the men have much choice, do they? Homosexuality is still illegal over there i believe. I have heard of gays from Arab nations trying to get asylum in other countries, because they'll be imprisoned, or worse in their own country for being gay.

DrSeuss wrote:
Anyone could have sex with anyone. And your comment about the Roman Empire was inaccurate. There was more practice of homosexuality, but the practice was mainly political. Their views of sex was different than ours today. They engaged in homosexual behavior for social reasons as well as a social construct. Seeing as it was commonplace for men to be attracted to young feminine boys, but it was illegal and socially unacceptable for two free male citizens to engage in sex with each other.


You completely missed my point. Yes, theoretically we are capable of being with anyone else. But that doesn't mean we're going to be attracted to everyone else, does it? I pointed out i could kiss or sleep with another woman if i chose, but that doesnt mean it'll excite me, or that I'd get any pleasure from it. A gay man can sleep with a woman for example, but that on it's own won't make him straight if he's not gaining any enjoyment out of it. We can't choose who we're attracted to, that is the point I was trying to make.

I was just making an assumption about the Roman Empire. But obviously I was wrong. Probably a case where homosexuality was acceptable, or at least turned a blind eye to, if the participants were in the upper class of Roman society. But illegal for the general population.

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raveneyeslikemirrors
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:30 am
Posts: 402
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 6:56 pm 
 

AngelicStorm wrote:
I personally, don't think we can choose our sexuality. Like most teenagers, I was curious about sexuality, and wondered what it would be like to be with another woman. But ultimately, those thoughts never excited me, or turned me on in the same way that the same thoughts about men did. At no point did I "choose" to fancy men, I just did.


I know that feeling. I myself was curious about women, but even since my very first climax I remember it involved thoughts about male anatomy only. And in the end very very very few female bodies and personalitiy types are attractive to me, but many types of men are. That is how it always has been.


AngelicStorm wrote:
I'm not saying it's impossible to choose your sexuality to some extent. At least for some people. I have heard some say we're all bi-sexual, or at least have the potential to be. I don't believe that to be true. I believe some people can go one way or the other, and end up "choosing" their preffered sex of potential partners. This only applies to the miniority though, and for most of us, sexuality is not a choice.


If anything this confirms to me my basic philosophy that there is no one specific answer or rule of thumb that apples to everything or everyone. Existence is just to complex for that.

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raveneyeslikemirrors
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:30 am
Posts: 402
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:04 pm 
 

bansheekiller wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong, not from any religious stand point. Your brain tells you to be attracted to women and women parts. Obviously, gay people must be screwed up in the brain.


Then there would not be any of us in the arts, sciences, or professional careers... but that is were you can expect to find us more often then base labor, unskilled jobs. We are capable of the same mental finesse as any heterosexual.

It seems rather apparent to me that all disdain of homosexuality is at its core one thing... fear of homosexuality.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 18585
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:14 pm 
 

raveneyeslikemirrors wrote:
bansheekiller wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong, not from any religious stand point. Your brain tells you to be attracted to women and women parts. Obviously, gay people must be screwed up in the brain.


Then there would not be any of us in the arts, sciences, or professional careers... but that is were you can expect to find us more often then base labor, unskilled jobs. We are capable of the same mental finesse as any heterosexual.

It seems rather apparent to me that all disdain of homosexuality is at its core one thing... fear of homosexuality.

Nobody ever denied that, did they?
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agentsteel666
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Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:45 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:51 pm 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
DrSeuss wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?


Clothes aren't a natural thing. We wear them now primarily because of the concept of shame and modesty, which are constructs of society, not instinct. This can be seen in how some cultures don't see nudity as wrong at all.

If it weren't for the Ice Age, it's likely our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have developed the concept of clothing. Covering ourselves is not something our instinctive, animalistic psyche tells us to do.


Yeah but that's what I'm saying that we have to wear clothes to keep warm.


Then you've entirely missed the point.


You can't really say that our animalistic instinct wasn't the one governing our clothing. Our animalistic instinct's most basic function is self preservation; during the ice age, the cold was threatening us, thus man innovated and created clothing. Think of it as a domino effect. It was a necessity for survival, thus could be deduced as natural.

Also, that hypothesis aside. How to you explain uncontacted tribes people from tropical areas who wear clothing? Take for instance the Sentinelese from India or certain tribes of the amazon?


It doesn't really matter, my point was that people who make the "It's not natural!" claim are rather hypocritical.


Ok dude people wore clothes for warmth and protection; it is a completely rational and natural thing for people to do. I guess if you mean to say that if we never got cold then we wouldn't have invented clothes and that even now when it's hot out we still wear clothes which isn't natural. I guess wearing clothes when it's really hot isn't natural so I agree with you there. It depends on the environment.

Even IF you're saying that warmth has nothing to do with it and it's all about shame and social constructs, who's to say that it's not a natural thing to want to cover up private parts of your body?

I don't know...I think it's kind of a challenge to define what "natural" is in the first place.

AngelicStorm wrote:
Its interesting you say that you could be attracted to males if you chose to. I dont know a single gay person who has said their sexuality is a choice.


Yes, I believe that if I was brought up at a young age to think that being attracted to other males was noble and righteous, I would choose to make my brain be attacted to them. I can't do it now since I've already grown up. Before you go through puberty, it is all about conscious choice. Once you become who you are though, you can't go back. I think homosexuals saw something about being attracted to other men that was somehow better than being attracted to women, and if only they had been disciplined and taught at a young age to change their minds, maybe they'd grow up straight. But you have to do it at a young age before any kind of sexual attraction is planted.

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Sunkist
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Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:17 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:43 pm 
 

DrSeuss wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
agentsteel666 wrote:
Our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes? Are you stupid?


Clothes aren't a natural thing. We wear them now primarily because of the concept of shame and modesty, which are constructs of society, not instinct. This can be seen in how some cultures don't see nudity as wrong at all.

If it weren't for the Ice Age, it's likely our cavemen ancestors wouldn't have developed the concept of clothing. Covering ourselves is not something our instinctive, animalistic psyche tells us to do.


Yeah but that's what I'm saying that we have to wear clothes to keep warm.


Then you've entirely missed the point.


Also, that hypothesis aside. How to you explain uncontacted tribes people from tropical areas who wear clothing? Take for instance the Sentinelese from India or certain tribes of the amazon?


seriously? Are you telling me that the area these tribes live in were not affected by the ice age at ALL?

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AngelicStorm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 12:47 am 
 

raveneyeslikemirrors wrote:
I know that feeling. I myself was curious about women, but even since my very first climax I remember it involved thoughts about male anatomy only. And in the end very very very few female bodies and personalitiy types are attractive to me, but many types of men are. That is how it always has been.


I think the vast majority of us, male or female, at some point are curious about what it would be like to be with a member of the same sex. I think this normally happens during puberty/Teenage years. I don't think i've ever seen any statistics for women. However, I have heard that most males (Around 80% probably) at some point will have homosexual thoughts. So yup, that probably includes a lot of the "We hate fags" brigade too. My first sexual thoughts were always about men, and always seemed the natural, and normal thing for me. Later on, probably in my late-ish teens, I started being curious about other women. However, I don't think i was naturally thinking that way. More that I was curious about it, and wondered what it would be like. Any time I made myself think of it though, it never felt the same in the way that thinking about men did, and always felt kinda forced, rather than natural. So I knew pretty quickly that I wasn't a lesbian, or bi.

raveneyeslikemirrors wrote:
If anything this confirms to me my basic philosophy that there is no one specific answer or rule of thumb that apples to everything or everyone. Existence is just to complex for that.


I totally agree with that. Generalisations are in the main, very inaccurate, and a silly thing to do. Most people just like putting others in boxes though. Especially those that they don't really understand. While I think the vast majority of gay people did not choose to be that way, I don't think that is an absolute, and a small amount probably do choose it for whatever reason. I think these people however are not really homosexual, not in the true sense of the word. Seeing as their attractions are probably forced, and not very natural at all.

agentsteel666 wrote:
Yes, I believe that if I was brought up at a young age to think that being attracted to other males was noble and righteous, I would choose to make my brain be attacted to them. I can't do it now since I've already grown up. Before you go through puberty, it is all about conscious choice. Once you become who you are though, you can't go back. I think homosexuals saw something about being attracted to other men that was somehow better than being attracted to women, and if only they had been disciplined and taught at a young age to change their minds, maybe they'd grow up straight. But you have to do it at a young age before any kind of sexual attraction is planted.


The main problem with that angle of arguement, is that the vast majority of gay guys were brought up in the same way that you were. That being with girls and being heterosexual is the normal, and good thing to do. And that gays are weird, unnatural, and wrong. That is why so many gays struggle with their sexuality for a long time, and try to fight it. I refuse to believe that most gays turn out the way they do because they've been taught that homosexuality is right from an early age. Because I think that is simply not true at all. Our society in some form throws at us that gay people, and gay males in particular are somehow "deviant" from an early age. They are growing up in the same society that we are you know. So why does being brought up in that envoironment not make them turn out straight then?

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agentsteel666
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:41 am 
 

AngelicStorm wrote:
The main problem with that angle of arguement, is that the vast majority of gay guys were brought up in the same way that you were. That being with girls and being heterosexual is the normal, and good thing to do. And that gays are weird, unnatural, and wrong. That is why so many gays struggle with their sexuality for a long time, and try to fight it. I refuse to believe that most gays turn out the way they do because they've been taught that homosexuality is right from an early age. Because I think that is simply not true at all. Our society in some form throws at us that gay people, and gay males in particular are somehow "deviant" from an early age. They are growing up in the same society that we are you know. So why does being brought up in that envoironment not make them turn out straight then?


You don't know me, and you don't know what kind of environment I was brought up in, so you can't say that most gay people were brought up in my kind of environment.

Before I came to the age of sexual development, I was asexual. I didn't have a sexual orienation so it was up to me to establish my identity as to which I wanted to be. I wasn't attracted to women, but I taught my brain at a young age to be attracted to women and to be disgusted by men. It took a conscious effort on my part to choose to be the way I was. I don't know if it would have come naturally as I was going through puberty or not, but I know that when I was young I had to choose which I wanted to be.

I've noticed a lot of gay people say that "I've always been this way" and shit like that. Really? So even when they were 5 years old they were attracted to other men? The only reason that would be so is because they chose to be that way. You're not supposed to be attracted to either sex at that age so if they were it must mean they chose it.

What I implied was that they weren't taught ANYTHING and therefore had the option to choose either sex to be attracted to without any kind of intervention by peers or family members. What I'm saying is that if parents disicplined their children at a young age and taught them to be straight then probably more of them would grow up straight. That's what they used to do WAY back in the day, and you can notice how tons more people today are growing up gay then back then. You're not born that way. If you want to be straight, you can. You just have to have the right influences at an early age.

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Woolie_Wool
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:55 am 
 

Oflick wrote:
Muhammadabbadabba wrote:
Not to be a dickwad, but shouldn't it be intragender rather than intergender? If something is intra that means its within the same; by contrast, inter means outside of (ie: interracial).


So, I'm outside of the net right now?

Quote:
Also, to those who believe it's a lifestyle choice. Uh, how about no? Out of the countless gay people I've met and the few gay/lesbian friends that I've had, none of them advocate it as a choice, they were never nor will they ever be interested in the opposite sex. Yes, it is true that anyone has the capability to have sex with anyone or anything on the planet, but that doesn't make anyone one thing or another. Part of sexuality is a social construct, however, most of us are defined by biology and natural instincts, those don't just switch over like that. Sexual "orientation" is a very complex matter and is not nearly as fluid or as rigid as some people like to define. That being said, homosexuality is not "unnatural" it's for some reason a moral issue, when it shouldn't be.


This will sound horrible, but wouldn't genes that make someone homosexual be a defect? I'm a supporter of homosexuals and all, but from a Natural Selection stand point, that shouldn't happen.


This is actually untrue. Several evolutionary hypotheses have been drafted to explain the consistent appearance of homosexual behavior in humans and many other species. One theory is that homosexuals within the family serve as backup caregivers for children whose parents die or are otherwise unable to care for them. Another involves early humans using gay sex as a method of building and maintaining alliances between individuals (something that has been known to happen among certain ape species). The "purpose" of evolution (if you want to call it that) is to ensure the continuation of genetic lines and exploit available ecological niches, not just to pump out as many babies as possible. The very fact that human beings are born one at a time and take 13-20 years to reach maturity goes against the latter principle.

agentsteel666 wrote:
You don't know me, and you don't know what kind of environment I was brought up in, so you can't say that most gay people were brought up in my kind of environment.

Before I came to the age of sexual development, I was asexual. I didn't have a sexual orienation so it was up to me to establish my identity as to which I wanted to be. I wasn't attracted to women, but I taught my brain at a young age to be attracted to women and to be disgusted by men. It took a conscious effort on my part to choose to be the way I was. I don't know if it would have come naturally as I was going through puberty or not, but I know that when I was young I had to choose which I wanted to be.

I've noticed a lot of gay people say that "I've always been this way" and shit like that. Really? So even when they were 5 years old they were attracted to other men? The only reason that would be so is because they chose to be that way. You're not supposed to be attracted to either sex at that age so if they were it must mean they chose it.

What I implied was that they weren't taught ANYTHING and therefore had the option to choose either sex to be attracted to without any kind of intervention by peers or family members. What I'm saying is that if parents disicplined their children at a young age and taught them to be straight then probably more of them would grow up straight. That's what they used to do WAY back in the day, and you can notice how tons more people today are growing up gay then back then. You're not born that way. If you want to be straight, you can. You just have to have the right influences at an early age.

You were asexual at five years old because your body was not producing enough sex hormones to give you any significant sexual urges. Sexuality emerges during early puberty and is beyond the control of the individual. You are born with your sexual orientation set in stone (the exact mechanism is unclear, but probably a combination of genetics and hormone levels in the womb), but it does not manifest itself until your reproductive system activates during your teens. Your brain was taught that you were supposed to be attracted to women and repulsed by the idea of sexual relations with men, it is just coincidence (a very likely coincidence, as 90-94% of all human beings are largely heterosexual) that your biological preference aligns with the cultural values instilled in you. The problem is that gay men grow up with the exact same cultural values in most cases (because these values are inescapable and omnipresent in Western society), and their biological drives conflict with their cultural conditioning, which can create a slew of terrible psychological problems. Your sexual orientation can be repressed, denied, or even defied (gay men have nothing physically preventing them from putting their penises into vaginas, after all), but it is always there. The people hundreds of years ago who had same-sex attractions did not grow out of them or have them "disciplined" out--they inhibited them for fear of legal or divine retribution (and considering what a lengthy list of acts and desires could result in prison, execution, or alleged hellfire centuries ago, this wasn't an unusual thing for people of any sexual orientation), redirected them into forms that generally weren't looked upon as "sodomy" (it was not considered deviant until Victorian times for same-sex friends to sleep together, enjoy physical intimacy, or write each other quite effusive love letters, as long as the sexual organs were not involved), or pursued them in secret or not-so-secret extramarital affairs (many public baths in Europe, Asia Minor, and Japan had male staff and attendants that doubled as prostitutes). Any many civilizations had institutionalized recognition of homosexuality, including Ancient Greece, feudal Japan, certain tribes in New Guinea, and several Native American civilizations. Remember that the science of studying human sexuality is only about fifty years old, because we have only recently loosened cultural taboos against talking about or contemplating sexuality that were once enforced by word of law and threats of eternal damnation.

Dividing human sexuality into mutually exclusive categories of "straight" and "gay" is not realistic anyway. Most straight people will have some sort of conscious or subconscious same-sex attraction at some point in their lives, and vice versa--it could be as subtle as a straight man taking another look at an Abercrombie and Fitch ad, or a gay man noticing that that woman writing his traffic ticket has a really tight uniform shirt. When you add trangender and intersex people into the equation, it becomes even more fuzzy and complicated.

On the subject of metal and homosexuality, I would encourage people writing album reviews to avoid using "gay" and other homophobic pejoratives in their writing and come up with more creative terms of abuse. The way these words are used creates a similar level to offensiveness to people ranting about "nigger music". Would you like someone writing a review talking about some album being "nigger music"? (If you are a "racialist", disregard this sentence, preheat your oven to 500 degrees, remove the center rack, climb inside, and close the door.)

redeemerofchaos wrote:
I hate homosexual men, but i love homosexual/bi-sexual women


In other words, you enjoy "lesbian" porn produced by straight men for the titillation of straight men with no consideration for the participants (who are mostly straight women trying to make a living). This means you're not only homophobic, but disgustingly misogynist too.
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AngelicStorm
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:57 am 
 

agentsteel666 wrote:
You don't know me, and you don't know what kind of environment I was brought up in, so you can't say that most gay people were brought up in my kind of environment.


No I don't, but you said yourself "If i was brought up to think being attracted to other men was noble and righteous....", which suggests you were brought up to believe the opposite thing to be true. The point I'm making is that in our culture and society, the vast majority of us are taught from an early age that "normal" is man+woman, and everything else is not normal. What I'm saying is, when gay people were younger, they were being fed the exactly same messages that we were. Either by our parents, or just by observing society. So, many gay people end up seeing themselves as "sick" or "wrong", because that is what our society teaches them. Gay people are not brought up on a different planet from the rest of us. They realise from an early age just like that rest of us, that the majority of our society frowns on homosexuality. That being the case, your arguement doesn't really hold water.

agentsteel666 wrote:
I've noticed a lot of gay people say that "I've always been this way" and shit like that. Really? So even when they were 5 years old they were attracted to other men? The only reason that would be so is because they chose to be that way. You're not supposed to be attracted to either sex at that age so if they were it must mean they chose it.


I think what they mean by that is, they knew they were gay from the moment they became sexually active/aware. I don't think any of us know our sexuality pre-puberty. We maybe indoctrinated to believe that we will turn out straight when we grow up, but that doesn't mean that will be the case for everyone.

agentsteel666 wrote:
What I implied was that they weren't taught ANYTHING and therefore had the option to choose either sex to be attracted to without any kind of intervention by peers or family members. What I'm saying is that if parents disicplined their children at a young age and taught them to be straight then probably more of them would grow up straight. That's what they used to do WAY back in the day, and you can notice how tons more people today are growing up gay then back then. You're not born that way. If you want to be straight, you can. You just have to have the right influences at an early age.


I'm afraid you'll find most gays are taught to believe that heterosexuality is normal. And homosexuality is not. Whether they learn that from peers, family, or just general society, is not really the point. No, I think you're wrong. More people are not growing up gay compared to back then. I don't think there was any less gay people back then. Just that back then homosexuality wasn't accepted at all, and was in fact illegal in lots of western countries. Including the UK and US up until about 40 years ago. So, it's only natural that in that envoironment, most gay people just supressed their true sexuality for fear of what would happen if they didn't. There's not more gays now, just more gays that are willing to come out, and are not as fearful for the repercussions as they were back then. Our society is not any different for gay people, than it is for anyone else. The vast majority of children, in some way are taught to believe homosexuality is wrong. Including children who are homosexuals later in life.

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Burzukur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 11:13 am
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:36 pm 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
bansheekiller wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong, not from any religious stand point. Your brain tells you to be attracted to women and women parts. Obviously, gay people must be screwed up in the brain.


Hey, our brain doesn't naturally tell us to wear clothes! Better ban clothes!


I've been saying that for years.
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Burzukur
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:46 pm 
 

The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
redeemerofchaos wrote:
I hate homosexual men, but i love homosexual/bi-sexual women


Good sir, I believe you have the intelligence to rival a sack of hammers. Dumb ones.


Hammers serve a purpose. Homophobes just waste good air and nutrients.
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alexanderthegreat
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:54 pm 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
In other words, you enjoy "lesbian" porn produced by straight men for the titillation of straight men with no consideration for the participants (who are mostly straight women trying to make a living). This means you're not only homophobic, but disgustingly misogynist too.


... What exactly makes it radically different from straight porn then?
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Woolie_Wool
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:07 pm 
 

That the straight porn is actually...you know...featuring actual straight people doing things that they might do in their own relationships, and possibly enjoying it? You know, Max Hardcore is not the only porn in the world.
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AngelicStorm
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:35 am 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
In other words, you enjoy "lesbian" porn produced by straight men for the titillation of straight men with no consideration for the participants (who are mostly straight women trying to make a living). This means you're not only homophobic, but disgustingly misogynist too.


I guess that brings up a whole other thing. This annoying trend of girls pretending they're lesbian or bi, just to turn men on. I think the "lesbian" porn thing has a lot to do with that. Straight girls just acting like they're into other girls just cos they know that some men like 2 women being together. If a real lesbian tried to come on to them, they'd probably run a mile! Lol

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The_Beast_in_Black
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:00 am 
 

That does indeed annoy the hell out of me. That "I Kissed a Girl" song is like the very banner atop the flagpole of that behaviour, flapping gaudily in my face every time I turn on the radio.

I really don't care for lesbian porn at all, though. Too fake, too hard to relate to.
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AnthologyMetal
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:57 am 
 

If God was so perfect and all, why did he make homosexuals? I guess God wanted something different to happen in our lives. I don't care about homosexuals getting married or anything but when they start making out in public in front of my children, then I am going to get a little concerned.

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