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Lunar_Strain
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Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:29 pm
Posts: 513
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:26 pm 
 

So, let's talk Linguistics and such.

There've been many threads to which I and other users have communicated about their 'mother tongues', and other languages that are either similar to them, in the same language family, or a dialect.

For instance, the Saami languages. There are numerous dialects through Lappland and the northern borders of the Scandinavian peninsula.. but where exactly do these languages fit in?

It seems to me, that alot of Arctic/Asiatic languages originate in Siberia, generally due to what is known as the "Altaic" branch of speech in some language trees. Languages from Altaic would include Turkic languages, Chinese (Speculated), Korean (Speculated only due to the fact that it shares no resemblance to Chinese, Mongolian, etc; it has been theorized that it is a language Isolate) Japanese (See Korean), and the noq dead(?) Ainu language.

Seeing as how ethnic Sami's are not of the same Slavic/Germanic/Ugric stocks of the native Scandinavian peoples, one must look elsewhere, and Sami's facial structure bear a striking resemblence to the Altaic/Siberian "eskimos" and natives of the Arctic (It finally occured to me just the other day that the Native Americans came to North, South and Central America from Siberia during the Ice Age, as there was a land bridge connecting Asia to America). Is it wrong to say that with these familiarities between these people, one can assume they all share a common Altaic ancestor?

And what of us Celts and Teutons? Did we truly originate in Asia (Caucaus Mountain area)?

Or is it after our ancient early humans descended upon the European continent, our facial, skin and cranial features began to change as we adapted to the new enviroment of forestry, steppes, and mountains, instead of the dry deserts and savannas of Africa and the Middle East?

Please, discuss. I'm positive this will be interesting. :)
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Lunar_Strain wrote:
Yes. Our Germanic brethren in the Northland never wore bear or wolf fur. =/

Yes they did, but they scavenged them from animals that had died naturally. "Viking" is actually an archaic word for "Vegan".

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Avestriel
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:54 pm 
 

It's not really that hard to trace the origins of every language on earth, and nowadays there's enough info to link Germanic languages with Asian languages and African languages.
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:30 pm 
 

Dialects and how they form interest me more than different languages. Do any Norwegians here know if the habitants of Jan Mayen speak any radically different dialect from the rest of Norway? I'd think they would, given how damn far they are from everything else on Earth, but you never know.



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Avestriel
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:36 pm 
 

How bout the Faroe islands?

I like dialects as well, but I'm only interested in spanish dialects, mainly Vasco, Catalá, Galego, Castellano (which, well, is the regular Spanish) and Lunfardo Argentino.
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carpforest
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:19 am 
 

Faroese have their own language, Faroese, which is pretty cool. Would like to visit Føroyar one day. As well as Sogn og Fjordane in Norway, most likely Sogndal. A different dialect there too I read in a book, and is also shown in Windir lyrics.

Edit: Reine Lofoten, fuck yeh http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=e ... oten&gbv=2
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ikuturiso wrote:
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Black Metal from Norway.. that's COLD, WOODS, SPIKES! and all that. FROST! ..and Blashyrkh!


Last edited by carpforest on Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Avestriel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:22 am 
 

carpforest wrote:
Faroese have their own language, Faroese, which is pretty cool.

But is it in the vein of Norwegian, Danish and Swedish (and Icelandic at some extent)? You know, they're all very similar.
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carpforest
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:25 am 
 

Aye, similar or at least relates to them, I noticed in their alphabet they had the same letters as Icelandic and Danish. Goverened by Denmark too.

Ah, here:

Wikipedia - It is one of three insular Scandinavian languages descended from the Old Norse language spoken in Scandinavia in the Viking Age, the others being Icelandic and the extinct Norn, which is thought to have been mutually intelligible with Faroese.
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ikuturiso wrote:
FROST, SPIKES, SKIN, WAR PAINT, CORPSE PAINT - THE PURE BLACK METAL!

Black Metal from Norway.. that's COLD, WOODS, SPIKES! and all that. FROST! ..and Blashyrkh!

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Avestriel
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Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:42 am
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:33 am 
 

Very interesting...
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Nyaricus
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Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:52 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:15 am 
 

I'm curious as to how similar American Aboriginal languages are compared to their Mongoloid forefathers. 10,000 years must do something to the similarities in dialects.
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greysnow
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:01 am
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:42 am 
 

Nyaricus wrote:
I'm curious as to how similar American Aboriginal languages are compared to their Mongoloid forefathers. 10,000 years must do something to the similarities in dialects.


Look here for an introduction.

Conclusive proof of genetic relationship (in the linguistic sense) between any American and Asian languages hasn't been found until today; so, very different.
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HIDE_TEH_LUNIX
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Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:30 am
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:39 am 
 

Avestriel wrote:
It's not really that hard to trace the origins of every language on earth, and nowadays there's enough info to link Germanic languages with Asian languages and African languages.
What I am really interested in is the proposed 'Altaïc' language family, which links Japanese (of which it was always thought it was isolated) to Turkish.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:02 pm 
 

Avestriel wrote:
How bout the Faroe islands?

I like dialects as well, but I'm only interested in spanish dialects, mainly Vasco, Catalá, Galego, Castellano (which, well, is the regular Spanish) and Lunfardo Argentino.


Well, Faroese are very similar to Norwegian and Swedish. However, I once heard that Faroese is the language that bears most resemblance to Old Norse (in fact a Faroese told me that.

About the spanish dialects now. You have to know my friend that these dialects are not all the same. Castellano, Lunfardo Argentino, Galego and Catalá are all derived from the same root (Latin). On the other hand Basque language (Euskara) does not derive from Latin. It's an isolate language. In fact it's one of the two isolate languages of Europe along with Albanian (which may also be a mixture of Greek, Slavic, Latin and Turkic).

To the OP: Sami language derives from Uralic (and to be more precise from Finno-Lappic and its predecesor Finno-Ugric). It has the same root with Hungarian, Estonian and Finnish. Uralic language are divided into Samoyedic and Finno-Ugric. Finno-Ugric are the ones that are spoken in Europe and Samoyedic are the ones that are spoken in Eurasia (mainly Siberia and Asian Russia). They bare no immediate connection to Turkic. The only link that can be made is the Mongolian one. Mongolians were wanderers that have passed from Siberia. They moved on to Asia Minor and mixed with Arabs and Turks. Mongolians have taken some elements out of Uralic but it belongs to the Altaic family. Not to the Uralic one like Sami, Finnish, Hungarian and Estonian.

Now, we can move to the Celtic languages. A lot of things have been said for the root of Celtic language. Nothing is sure until now. However, some Proto-Celtic words can be traced back to Ancient Greek. The connection between the two is pretty weird but it is a fact that some Celtic words derive from a Greek root (and obviously other Celtic words do not). I'll give some examples:

The Proto-Celtic word for father is the following: φatīr

The Ancient Greek word for father is the following: πατήρ (in English script patīr).

The Proto-Celtic word for three is the following: trīs

The Ancient Greek word for three is the following: τρείς (in English script treīs)

The Proto-Celtic word for mother is the following: mātīr

The Ancient Greek word for mother is the following: μητήρ (in English script mitīr)

This speculation is based from the fact that Proto-Celtic had the letter φ (it is pronounced ph) that can only be found in the Greek alphabet (and the Cyrillic alphabet but back then Cyrillic alphabet didn't exist).

In other words. Proto-Celtic is a weird language that does not bare resemblance to many languages of Europe (its root is not Indo-European). It has borrowed some words and a letter from Ancient Greek but I do not believe that Greek language had a major influence on them. The sure thing is that Proto-Celtic has been influenced by a lot of languages and influenced back other languages. A concrete and proven theory on the origins of Celtic language does not exist yet. Only speculations.
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vondskapens_makt
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:13 pm 
 

The Brazilian language is pretty simple to trace.

We = Speak Portuguese
Portuguese = From Portugal

Yep. Pretty simple. Except for those obscure mixed Africanesque dialects spoken there.
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HIDE_TEH_LUNIX
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Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:30 am
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 1:48 pm 
 

vondskapens_makt wrote:
The Brazilian language is pretty simple to trace.

We = Speak Portuguese
Portuguese = From Portugal

Yep. Pretty simple. Except for those obscure mixed Africanesque dialects spoken there.
Yes, and then trace Portuguese and debate whether or not the Indo-European language family is Isolated.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
Posts: 1053
Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:00 pm 
 

HIDE_TEH_LUNIX wrote:
vondskapens_makt wrote:
The Brazilian language is pretty simple to trace.

We = Speak Portuguese
Portuguese = From Portugal

Yep. Pretty simple. Except for those obscure mixed Africanesque dialects spoken there.
Yes, and then trace Portuguese and debate whether or not the Indo-European language family is Isolated.


Clearly Indo-European. It was spoken by romanized Celts and it traces back to Latin.
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HIDE_TEH_LUNIX
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
HIDE_TEH_LUNIX wrote:
vondskapens_makt wrote:
The Brazilian language is pretty simple to trace.

We = Speak Portuguese
Portuguese = From Portugal

Yep. Pretty simple. Except for those obscure mixed Africanesque dialects spoken there.
Yes, and then trace Portuguese and debate whether or not the Indo-European language family is Isolated.


Clearly Indo-European. It was spoken by romanized Celts and it traces back to Latin.
Where did I say it was not? I said debating where Indo-European languages are part of yet another greater language family. Some say Etruscan and Indo-European developed from the same root, even longer ago.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:33 pm 
 

HIDE_TEH_LUNIX wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
HIDE_TEH_LUNIX wrote:
vondskapens_makt wrote:
The Brazilian language is pretty simple to trace.

We = Speak Portuguese
Portuguese = From Portugal

Yep. Pretty simple. Except for those obscure mixed Africanesque dialects spoken there.
Yes, and then trace Portuguese and debate whether or not the Indo-European language family is Isolated.


Clearly Indo-European. It was spoken by romanized Celts and it traces back to Latin.
Where did I say it was not? I said debating where Indo-European languages are part of yet another greater language family. Some say Etruscan and Indo-European developed from the same root, even longer ago.


Ah, I misinterpreted your post. Well, that's quite a big debate :p
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Lunar_Strain
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:27 pm 
 

Very glad this thread hooked some interest.

On the topic of Faroese, It is, itself, somewhat of an isolate language, like Icelandic and Norn, because as the Scandinavian countries had contact with Continental Europe, they gradually evolved into what they are today.

Faroese and Icelandic -- While still retaining their Old Norse roots, are actually more influenced by Danish as were apart of Denmark (I actually think the Faroe Islands still are under Danish rule. Perhaps someone could elaborate on that for me?), whereas Iceland gained independence in the 40's, I think?

Either or, I say they are "isolates" because, Like I said above, they weren't exactly in constant contact with other European languages that influenced they way they evolved; Unlike English, for example. Yes, we derive out language from the Anglo-Saxons, but 60% of English words are derived form Latin. In fact, the Old English texts (Called by our Anglic ancestors "Englisc") are quite easy to determine the Latin influence just by looking at the way some of the words are formed. Also, we can thank the Normans for playing a major part in the way our language developed, because Norman French/French also play a part in our language, just as Greek, Nordic and even Celtic words do.

On the topic of the Norn languages, it is also somehwta of an isolate/Hybrid because it is a mixture of the Old Norse and Scottish Gaelic language. Unfortunately, it died out around the 18th century, and was only really spoken in Orkney and Shetland.

To my good user-friend Mors Gloria on the topic of the Celtic languages, I can honestly agree with how they may be linked to Ancient Greek, but only the Brythonic families, however. It has been recorded that the now extinct Briton peoples of Britannia (Whom the Romans first encountered) traced their lineage back to the Anatolian city of Troy, and claimed Trojan ancestry; The problem with this is, there is serious debate as to whether or not the Trojans were a Hittite knock off in Asia Minor, or if they were a Greco-Balkan people living in Anatolia during the Bronze Age. it is also unknown (To my knowledge, anyway) if they had their own language or if they did speak a branch of Greek -- Sort of like the ancient Macedonians, who spoke a specific style of dialect, and was not a true Hellenic form.

The Trojan language -- if it existed as a Greco-Balkan tongue -- was, indeed, probably more related to the Macedonian (Or perhaps I should say 'Thessalan') dialect than the more common Mycenaean language spoken in the mainland.

However, if they truly are a Hittite off-shoot, their language would probably be a mixture of the Indo-European Hittie and the Asiatic/Semitic languages of Asia Minor during that time, or probably just a form of Hittite.
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Napero wrote:
Lunar_Strain wrote:
Yes. Our Germanic brethren in the Northland never wore bear or wolf fur. =/

Yes they did, but they scavenged them from animals that had died naturally. "Viking" is actually an archaic word for "Vegan".

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:59 pm 
 

Lunar_Strain wrote:
To my good user-friend Mors Gloria on the topic of the Celtic languages, I can honestly agree with how they may be linked to Ancient Greek, but only the Brythonic families, however. It has been recorded that the now extinct Briton peoples of Britannia (Whom the Romans first encountered) traced their lineage back to the Anatolian city of Troy, and claimed Trojan ancestry; The problem with this is, there is serious debate as to whether or not the Trojans were a Hittite knock off in Asia Minor, or if they were a Greco-Balkan people living in Anatolia during the Bronze Age. it is also unknown (To my knowledge, anyway) if they had their own language or if they did speak a branch of Greek -- Sort of like the ancient Macedonians, who spoke a specific style of dialect, and was not a true Hellenic form.

The Trojan language -- if it existed as a Greco-Balkan tongue -- was, indeed, probably more related to the Macedonian (Or perhaps I should say 'Thessalan') dialect than the more common Mycenaean language spoken in the mainland.

However, if they truly are a Hittite off-shoot, their language would probably be a mixture of the Indo-European Hittie and the Asiatic/Semitic languages of Asia Minor during that time, or probably just a form of Hittite.


I never said that all Celtic languages was influenced by Greek :) Proto-Celtic was surely influenced and if you say that Brythonic was also influenced I am not going to disagree ;)

Troy is another story. We don't know their language. The only thing that leads to the assumption of Greek origin is the fact that Dardanus (the ancestor of Priamus and Hector) was a son of Zeus and Electra. His name also derives from the verb δαρδάπτω (in English script is dardapto) which means to wear. So, Dardanus was some kind of wearer :p

Now, Dardanelians (Trojans probably belong to the tribe of Dardnelians) themself were of Thraco-Illyrian origin. Thrace is a province of nowadays Greece and Illyrians probably are the ancestors of modern-day Albanians (it's a hypothesis based on their language which bears some resemblances to Illyrian which became extinct in the 6th century though so nothing is sure).

Another interesting fact is that Dardanelians lived in modern-day Kosovo and the word itself (Dardanelia) has been rescued in the modern Greek language (it refers to a mountain I think).

The problem is that due to lack of resources restricts our knowledge in this matter :ugh: I really hope that archaeologists can help us in that matter.


EDIT: I mixed up Faroese and Icelandic :oh shit:
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Lunar_Strain
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:19 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
I never said that all Celtic languages was influenced by Greek :) Proto-Celtic was surely influenced and if you say that Brythonic was also influenced I am not going to disagree ;)


Oh, no, I never made such an assumption. :)

And yes, Proto-Celtic is what I meant, because, in a sense, all Celtic languages spawned from one common tongue, this being Proto-Celtic (Which, with time, expanded into the Brythonic languages ;P).

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Troy is another story. We don't know their language. The only thing that leads to the assumption of Greek origin is the fact that Dardanus (the ancestor of Priamus and Hector) was a son of Zeus and Electra. His name also derives from the verb δαρδάπτω (in English script is dardapto) which means to wear. So, Dardanus was some kind of wearer :p

Now, Dardanelians (Trojans probably belong to the tribe of Dardnelians) themself were of Thraco-Illyrian origin. Thrace is a province of nowadays Greece and Illyrians probably are the ancestors of modern-day Albanians (it's a hypothesis based on their language which bears some resemblances to Illyrian which became extinct in the 6th century though so nothing is sure).


The Thraco-Illyrian theory is somewhat contradicted by the Thraco-Dacian theory, which states that the Dacians and the Thracians were two groups of the same people due to similarities in their language..

.. But this is also contradicted by the latter theory, because Thracian also has Illyrian usage in its language... which brings us to the next theory, which is the Daco-Illyrian theory.

All of these Eastern European peoples have a common link, it's just a matter of figuring it out (Unfortunately, save for the Greco tribes, these peoples essentially lacked a system of writing; It is said that the Dacians had their own alphabet, but evidence has yet to surface).

Alabanians most likely ARE the ancient Illyrians. Their language is virtually unchanged for many years (Centuries, even? And if so, Millenia?), and their culture seems also unaffected by the various rule they came udner (Romans, Byzantines, Greeks, Turks(?), etc).

I also figured that Greek was a language isolate in the Balkans since it has it's own language factor, kind of like Baltic languages.
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Napero wrote:
Lunar_Strain wrote:
Yes. Our Germanic brethren in the Northland never wore bear or wolf fur. =/

Yes they did, but they scavenged them from animals that had died naturally. "Viking" is actually an archaic word for "Vegan".

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Lunar_Strain
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:55 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:

The Proto-Celtic word for father is the following: φatīr

This speculation is based from the fact that Proto-Celtic had the letter φ (it is pronounced ph) that can only be found in the Greek alphabet (and the Cyrillic alphabet but back then Cyrillic alphabet didn't exist).

In other words. Proto-Celtic is a weird language that does not bare resemblance to many languages of Europe (its root is not Indo-European). It has borrowed some words and a letter from Ancient Greek but I do not believe that Greek language had a major influence on them. The sure thing is that Proto-Celtic has been influenced by a lot of languages and influenced back other languages. A concrete and proven theory on the origins of Celtic language does not exist yet. Only speculations.


I'm.. not sure on that one. I don't want to argue because you seem to know more than I, but I don't know any celtic languages that use a "ph" syllable.

I've also read in a book ("Celtic Myths And Legends" by T.W. Rolleston; Very good read, highly recommended) that the Irish Celts greatly disliked making the 'p' sound and often replaced it with a 'b' sound (Unlike the Gauls, I think; Then again, they may have done the same thing).

I can back this up by saying that the Old Irish language (Goídelc) was spoken up until the 6th century AD, where it evolved into Middle Irish (By that time, it may have incorporated the 'p' sound, but apparently Goídelc did not use it whatsoever; Read the book I mentioned for a detailed discussion.)

Then again, I may be entirely wrong. I'm not too keen on Celtic tongues, especially since Proto-Celtic seems to have originated as a Continental Celtic language (The others found in Britannia and Hibernia [Ireland] being quite different, though sharing some similarities.).


Also, am I correct in assuming that the Breton language (Brezhoneg) spoken in Brittany, France (Though being a member of the Brythonic language tree ;P) is also influenced by French? Could it be perhaps that Breton is a Cymru (Welsh) language that adapted and changed with the French language in Brittany? I know that many Cymry migrated to Brittany during the Middle Ages; It is from Brittany that we got the majority of the Arthurian Tales.
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Napero wrote:
Lunar_Strain wrote:
Yes. Our Germanic brethren in the Northland never wore bear or wolf fur. =/

Yes they did, but they scavenged them from animals that had died naturally. "Viking" is actually an archaic word for "Vegan".

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:12 pm 
 

Lunar_Strain wrote:

Albanians most likely ARE the ancient Illyrians. Their language is virtually unchanged for many years (Centuries, even? And if so, Millenia?), and their culture seems also unaffected by the various rule they came udner (Romans, Byzantines, Greeks, Turks(?), etc).

I also figured that Greek was a language isolate in the Balkans since it has it's own language factor, kind of like Baltic languages.


Albanian most likely may be the descendants of Illyrians. But their language is not unchanged. Illyrian as I said became extinct in 6 Century AD. No language is pure and unchanged. Albanian is practically a mixture of Illyrian, Greek, Slavic, Gothic, Italian, Turkic and Roma languages. These elements can be seen in town names, family times and various words (for example marh was the Gothic word for horse and its Albanian correspodent is magar, pjepër is Albanian for melon which its Greek correspodent is pepon and a lot of other words).

Personally, I do not believe in pure languages as I do not believe in pure races. Ancient Greece (except Sparta) was a free-for-all (that's why philosophy bloomed there) and during Byzantine and Ottoman rule the populations were so mixed up that no one in the Balkans can claim racial purity. And you can see that in our languages. There are a lot of mixtures between the languages that are spoken in Balkan.

Some examples are the following:

Arvanites: They are an Albanian-speaking tribe which uses the Greek alphabet and claim to be racially Greeks (and in some places like Aspropyrgos and Eleusina they are very hostile towards the immigrants that work there as workers in the factories). They exist in Epirus (Thesprotia, Preveza, Konitsa), Macedonia (Florina), Thrace (not a big population of them there though) Attica, Euboia, Peloponnese, Boetoia, Andros, Salamina (and other islands in the Saronic Gulf) and in Sicily (remember that Sicily had and still has a pretty big Greek population). There are even some chances that I have Arvanitic origin as I come from Andros from both my mother and father side (especially my mother's side lived in the Arvanitoxoria, the villages that Arvanites lived in Andros) and my father's side has origin in Sicily (yeah, I know that my ethnic background is weird but I do not care much :p ).

Pomaks: They are an Islamised Slavic-speaking tribe that live in Rhodope (a mountain that ranges from Bulgaria and Greece to Turkey and FYROM). They are related to Gorani and Torbesh. Very strange case as their origin is not yet sure. Here's the feud upon the etymology of their name and thus their tribal origin -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks#Etymologies

Cyrillic alphabet: Cyrillic alphabet may be a different alphabet that Slavic people use but it was originally created by Cyrillos and Methodios (two Orthodox monks) in the Byzantine Empire. It surely is a example of how mixed the ethnicities are in the Balkans.

Romas: That's the epitome of racial mixing. They have spread all over the world (even in Argentina and Brazil) but their origin is in India. However, they have a long presence in the Balkan area (they have been documented in Ukraine during the 15th century). Personally, I believe that Roma are one of the most interesting tribes I've encountered. When I was at the bus returning from Omonoia to Aigaleo (it was the day that I bought a 5-Cd compilation, mainly Black / Death / Doom Metal, for only 15 Euros :hyper: ) and I sat near to two Romas. They were discussing about economical matters (from what I catched their boss or some fellow-worker tried to cut their wages somehow but I couldn't understand the whole discussion). I recognised in their speech Greek, Uralic, Turkic, Slavic, Albanian, Latin and a bunch of other dialects. It was one of my greatest linguistic experiences. I was so curious that I even asked them what language they were speaking. They said that they were Romas that immigrated from Asia Minor (I think they said Constantinople but I am not sure) and that they are dialect is a mix of Greek, Turkic, Hungarian, Slavic, Albanian, Latin and so on. It was a great experience :D


EDIT:

Lunar_Strain wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:

The Proto-Celtic word for father is the following: φatīr

This speculation is based from the fact that Proto-Celtic had the letter φ (it is pronounced ph) that can only be found in the Greek alphabet (and the Cyrillic alphabet but back then Cyrillic alphabet didn't exist).

In other words. Proto-Celtic is a weird language that does not bare resemblance to many languages of Europe (its root is not Indo-European). It has borrowed some words and a letter from Ancient Greek but I do not believe that Greek language had a major influence on them. The sure thing is that Proto-Celtic has been influenced by a lot of languages and influenced back other languages. A concrete and proven theory on the origins of Celtic language does not exist yet. Only speculations.


I'm.. not sure on that one. I don't want to argue because you seem to know more than I, but I don't know any celtic languages that use a "ph" syllable.

Φ is the Greek correspodent to f (correct me if I'm wrong but ph has the exact same pronounciation with f I think). So they still didn't use

I've also read in a book ("Celtic Myths And Legends" by T.W. Rolleston; Very good read, highly recommended) that the Irish Celts greatly disliked making the 'p' sound and often replaced it with a 'b' sound (Unlike the Gauls, I think; Then again, they may have done the same thing).

I can back this up by saying that the Old Irish language (Goídelc) was spoken up until the 6th century AD, where it evolved into Middle Irish (By that time, it may have incorporated the 'p' sound, but apparently Goídelc did not use it whatsoever; Read the book I mentioned for a detailed discussion.)


Φ is the Greek correspodent to f (correct me if I'm wrong but ph has the exact same pronounciation with f I think). So they still didn't use the "p" sound but the "f" sound ;)

Lunar_Strain wrote:
Then again, I may be entirely wrong. I'm not too keen on Celtic tongues, especially since Proto-Celtic seems to have originated as a Continental Celtic language (The others found in Britannia and Hibernia [Ireland] being quite different, though sharing some similarities.).


Also, am I correct in assuming that the Breton language (Brezhoneg) spoken in Brittany, France (Though being a member of the Brythonic language tree ;P) is also influenced by French? Could it be perhaps that Breton is a Cymru (Welsh) language that adapted and changed with the French language in Brittany? I know that many Cymry migrated to Brittany during the Middle Ages; It is from Brittany that we got the majority of the Arthurian Tales.


I wouldn't be surprised if it was proven that Breton has been influenced by French. French (and Latins in general) and Celts lived along for a lot of centuries (Gauls were Celts and we all know the story of Asterix and Julius Caesar ;) ). I am not an expert though in what happened in the Middle Ages. The sure thing is that Roman Empire and the other various Empires that supressed the various tribes mixed things up a lot.
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intothevoid
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:26 pm 
 

vondskapens_makt wrote:
The Brazilian language is pretty simple to trace.

We = Speak Portuguese
Portuguese = From Portugal

Yep. Pretty simple. Except for those obscure mixed Africanesque dialects spoken there.

The Brazilian accent is the purest and oldest Portuguese accent still alive ...
AND the most beautiful . Portuguese is just ... horrible .
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Lunar_Strain
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:39 pm 
 

Oh.. Romas are fascinating.

Yes, I do recall their origins in India (I have heard Theories they may be descendants of the ancient Aryans who conquered the Indus Valley civilizations?), and their ethnicities are jumbled around, varying country to country, I suppose (Unless I'm mistaking 'Roma' for Gypsies of the same name.).

Edit:

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Φ is the Greek correspodent to f (correct me if I'm wrong but ph has the exact same pronounciation with f I think). So they still didn't use the "p" sound but the "f" sound ;)



Oh! Damnit, I completely forgot about that! Please forgive me! :lol:
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Yes. Our Germanic brethren in the Northland never wore bear or wolf fur. =/

Yes they did, but they scavenged them from animals that had died naturally. "Viking" is actually an archaic word for "Vegan".

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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:17 pm 
 

Lunar_Strain wrote:
Oh.. Romas are fascinating.

Yes, I do recall their origins in India (I have heard Theories they may be descendants of the ancient Aryans who conquered the Indus Valley civilizations?), and their ethnicities are jumbled around, varying country to country, I suppose (Unless I'm mistaking 'Roma' for Gypsies of the same name.).


You're not mistaken. And actually a lot of people call Roma Gypsies (like in Greek we usually call them Γύφτοι which is the Greek correspondent to Gypsies).
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CDanner
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:48 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:

Well, Faroese are very similar to Norwegian and Swedish. However, I once heard that Faroese is the language that bears most resemblance to Old Norse (in fact a Faroese told me that.


Icelandic is the closest language to Old Norse.

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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:24 pm 
 

CDanner wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:

Well, Faroese are very similar to Norwegian and Swedish. However, I once heard that Faroese is the language that bears most resemblance to Old Norse (in fact a Faroese told me that.


Icelandic is the closest language to Old Norse.


:nods:

As I've said in an edit of a previous post I mixed them up :p
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Avestriel
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:35 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
About the spanish dialects now. You have to know my friend that these dialects are not all the same. Castellano, Lunfardo Argentino, Galego and Catalá are all derived from the same root (Latin). On the other hand Basque language (Euskara) does not derive from Latin. It's an isolate language. In fact it's one of the two isolate languages of Europe along with Albanian (which may also be a mixture of Greek, Slavic, Latin and Turkic).

I know, but it's still a "Spanis" dialect, as in, it's only spoken in a region of spain (no matter how hard they try to become independent, they're still part of spain), I didn't mean it has it's roots in spanish, but rather that the people who speak it live in Spain.

EDIT: Shit, I'll finish reading this thread tomorrow. Please don't post tl;dr :P
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Last edited by Avestriel on Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:50 am 
 

Avestriel wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
About the spanish dialects now. You have to know my friend that these dialects are not all the same. Castellano, Lunfardo Argentino, Galego and Catalá are all derived from the same root (Latin). On the other hand Basque language (Euskara) does not derive from Latin. It's an isolate language. In fact it's one of the two isolate languages of Europe along with Albanian (which may also be a mixture of Greek, Slavic, Latin and Turkic).

I know, but it's still a "Spanisñ" dialect, as in, it's only spoken in a region of spain (no matter how hard they try to become independent, they're still part of spain), I didn't mean it has it's roots in spanish, but rather that the people who speak it live in Spain.

EDIT: Shit, I'll finish reading this thread tomorrow. Please don't post tl;dr :P


It is also spoken in France so technically it's not a Spanish dialect :D
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greysnow
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:27 am 
 

Lunar_Strain wrote:
For instance, the Saami languages. There are numerous dialects through Lappland and the northern borders of the Scandinavian peninsula.. but where exactly do these languages fit in?

The Saami languages are a branch of the Finno-Ugric family of languages (the most prominent members of this family are Finnish and Hungarian). The Finno-Ugrians lived in the Ural mountains region in the 1st century BCE, if I'm not mistaken.

Lunar_Strain wrote:
It seems to me, that alot of Arctic/Asiatic languages originate in Siberia, generally due to what is known as the "Altaic" branch of speech in some language trees. Languages from Altaic would include Turkic languages, Chinese (Speculated), Korean (Speculated only due to the fact that it shares no resemblance to Chinese, Mongolian, etc; it has been theorized that it is a language Isolate) Japanese (See Korean), and the noq dead(?) Ainu language.

The notion of "Altaic" languages is still contested in comparative linguistics, with a majority of scholars today leaning towards the opinion that there is no such language family, at least not in a "genetic" sense. ("genetic" in linguistics means relationship by a common ancestral language. It has nothing to do with "race".) There are structural similarities, yes; but those can be explained by prolonged contact between the languages. To prove a common origin sound correspondences in the most basic vocabulary must be found, and that is where the Altaic hypothesis fails: the words simply seem not related, except for some very obvious loanwords.

Lunar_Strain wrote:
Seeing as how ethnic Sami's are not of the same Slavic/Germanic/Ugric stocks of the native Scandinavian peoples, one must look elsewhere, and Sami's facial structure bear a striking resemblence to the Altaic/Siberian "eskimos" and natives of the Arctic (It finally occured to me just the other day that the Native Americans came to North, South and Central America from Siberia during the Ice Age, as there was a land bridge connecting Asia to America). Is it wrong to say that with these familiarities between these people, one can assume they all share a common Altaic ancestor?

Well, linguistically Saami are of Finno-Ugric (not Ugric) stock (there is no Ugric stock in Scandinavia, Ugric > Hungarian). Since the original speakers came from somewhere in Western Siberia, there's no wonder they might share some Asiatic facial features. On the other hand, many Saami are blond, while Asiatic people tend to have black hair. As with almost all peoples, today's Saami are a genetic mixture. The way that languages spread/are passed on has nothing to do with human genetics, that is, spread of a language does not have necessarily anything to do with spread of a people/race/whathaveyou.

Lunar_Strain wrote:
And what of us Celts and Teutons? Did we truly originate in Asia (Caucaus Mountain area)?

"Teuton" really applies to one Germanic tribe of the 2nd century BCE which was destroyed by the Romans. For some reason in the 19th century it got used for "German", which of course isn't the same as "Germanic" either. You probably mean you're of Anglo-Saxon and Celtic ancestry, right?
Well, the Germanic and Celtic peoples speak Indo-European languages, so their languages are related: there was a common ancestor language called "Proto Indo-European" (PIE) which was probably spoken around 3000 BCE. Where it was spoken has long been the subject of debate, a debate that has been instrumentalized for nationalistic politics as well (for example the Nazis equated PIE with "Aryan" and tried to prove that PIE speakers came from Northern Europe). No conclusive arguments have been forwarded. Today we're still left with "somewhere on the Eurasian landmass", and most Indo-Europeanists today actually aren't that interested anymore. Origin of PIE north of the Black Sea / the Caucasus mountains is just one of the more popular hypotheses, but it has no more arguments for it than many other hypotheses.

Lunar_Strain wrote:
Or is it after our ancient early humans descended upon the European continent, our facial, skin and cranial features began to change as we adapted to the new enviroment of forestry, steppes, and mountains, instead of the dry deserts and savannas of Africa and the Middle East?

Sure their features changed, as will numerous features of any separated populations given the time. I'm not sure in how far European skin and facial features and so on are just random drift or really an adaptation to a European climate; I can see no obvious advantage. But that's beside the topic. What matters here is that human immigration to Eurasia was such a huge amount of time before any time that we can reach by linguistic reconstruction that we absolutely don't know, what (if any) language those early immigrants spoke.

HIDE_TEH_LUNIX wrote:
What I am really interested in is the proposed 'Altaïc' language family, which links Japanese (of which it was always thought it was isolated) to Turkish.

See above. The Altaic hypothesis links the Turkic, Mongolian and Tungusic language families (which in themselves are undisputed) and some scholars, not all, also lump Korean and Japanese in with it. Some go even further, throw in the Finno-Ugric family and call the result "Ural-Altaic". In my opinion, none of this has been proved.

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Now, we can move to the Celtic languages. A lot of things have been said for the root of Celtic language. Nothing is sure until now. However, some Proto-Celtic words can be traced back to Ancient Greek. The connection between the two is pretty weird but it is a fact that some Celtic words derive from a Greek root (and obviously other Celtic words do not).

A lot has been said, but much of it has been said before it was conclusively proved that Celtic, in fact, is a branch of Indo-European, just as Greek is, and that is pretty sure. So, both branches go back to PIE and none is a descendant of the other. The Proto-Celtic words you refer to can't be traced to Ancient Greek but to PIE, and Ancient Greek itself can be traced to PIE as well; Celtic and Greek are sisters, not mother and daughter.
Of course, later loanwords from Greek in Celtic languages (like Gaulish, imported through Massalia/Marseille, or Galatian) really do come from Greek but are something else entirely.

Mors_Gloria wrote:
In other words. Proto-Celtic is a weird language that does not bare resemblance to many languages of Europe (its root is not Indo-European).

I'm sorry, that's plain incorrect, my friend.

HIDE_TEH_LUNIX wrote:
I said debating where Indo-European languages are part of yet another greater language family. Some say Etruscan and Indo-European developed from the same root, even longer ago.

Some say, yes, but you can always find someone to say almost anything. There's absolutely no proof of that, and it looks improbable, given our current knowledge. The differences are too great.

Lunar_Strain wrote:
To my good user-friend Mors Gloria on the topic of the Celtic languages, I can honestly agree with how they may be linked to Ancient Greek, but only the Brythonic families, however. It has been recorded that the now extinct Briton peoples of Britannia (Whom the Romans first encountered) traced their lineage back to the Anatolian city of Troy, and claimed Trojan ancestry.

Nah, Brythonic is just a subbranch of Celtic like Goidelic (=Gaelic) is. Everyone and his uncle has traced their origin back to Troy. That doesn't mean anything. Those are just legends.

About which language was spoken in Troy: I think the consensus tends to an offshoot of the Anatolian languages (of which Hittite is a member). Correct me if I'm wrong.

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Personally, I do not believe in pure languages as I do not believe in pure races.

You're spot on here (you are also right about Albanian). I share the sentiment. "Purity" in itself is quite a hateful concept to me.

p and ph and f: Greek ph stems from PIE bh which yields Celtic b. It is true that Proto-Celtic lost its p, but Celtic p corresponds to Greek p, not ph. Anyway, the Ancient Greek pronunciation of ph was as aspirated p, much like in current English, not f; ph > f is a later change in Greek.
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Avestriel
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 5:27 am 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Avestriel wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
About the spanish dialects now. You have to know my friend that these dialects are not all the same. Castellano, Lunfardo Argentino, Galego and Catalá are all derived from the same root (Latin). On the other hand Basque language (Euskara) does not derive from Latin. It's an isolate language. In fact it's one of the two isolate languages of Europe along with Albanian (which may also be a mixture of Greek, Slavic, Latin and Turkic).

I know, but it's still a "Spanisñ" dialect, as in, it's only spoken in a region of spain (no matter how hard they try to become independent, they're still part of spain), I didn't mean it has it's roots in spanish, but rather that the people who speak it live in Spain.

EDIT: Shit, I'll finish reading this thread tomorrow. Please don't post tl;dr :P


It is also spoken in France so technically it's not a Spanish dialect :D

That can be expected since they're neighbors. Still, Euskadi is a spanish province.
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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 8:04 am 
 

greysnow wrote:

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Now, we can move to the Celtic languages. A lot of things have been said for the root of Celtic language. Nothing is sure until now. However, some Proto-Celtic words can be traced back to Ancient Greek. The connection between the two is pretty weird but it is a fact that some Celtic words derive from a Greek root (and obviously other Celtic words do not).

A lot has been said, but much of it has been said before it was conclusively proved that Celtic, in fact, is a branch of Indo-European, just as Greek is, and that is pretty sure. So, both branches go back to PIE and none is a descendant of the other. The Proto-Celtic words you refer to can't be traced to Ancient Greek but to PIE, and Ancient Greek itself can be traced to PIE as well; Celtic and Greek are sisters, not mother and daughter.
Of course, later loanwords from Greek in Celtic languages (like Gaulish, imported through Massalia/Marseille, or Galatian) really do come from Greek but are something else entirely.


I never said that Greek and Celtic had a mother-daughter relationship :) I know that Greek do not bore Celtic (how could it be? The distance between the two places is pretty big). I just talked about the influences which can be called as a sister relationship as you noted :)

The problem with your PIE theory though is that PIE is not proven yet. It's just a hypothesis. Linguists argue for PIE decades now and they (or I could say we as I aim to be one) have never reached an agreement about its origin (its mere existence is contested too). There is the Glottalic theory (that exclude Anatolian though), the Kurgan hypothesis, Elst's Out Of India model,the Anatolian hypothesis, the Paleolithic Continuity theory and a bunch of others. One cannot be sure for PIE if archaeologists do not help us by excavations. Linguistics is based upon them.

greysnow wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
In other words. Proto-Celtic is a weird language that does not bare resemblance to many languages of Europe (its root is not Indo-European).

I'm sorry, that's plain incorrect, my friend.


Yeah, you're right. I checked my sources again and I saw that I was wrong here :p

Avestriel wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Avestriel wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
About the spanish dialects now. You have to know my friend that these dialects are not all the same. Castellano, Lunfardo Argentino, Galego and Catalá are all derived from the same root (Latin). On the other hand Basque language (Euskara) does not derive from Latin. It's an isolate language. In fact it's one of the two isolate languages of Europe along with Albanian (which may also be a mixture of Greek, Slavic, Latin and Turkic).

I know, but it's still a "Spanisñ" dialect, as in, it's only spoken in a region of spain (no matter how hard they try to become independent, they're still part of spain), I didn't mean it has it's roots in spanish, but rather that the people who speak it live in Spain.

EDIT: Shit, I'll finish reading this thread tomorrow. Please don't post tl;dr :P


It is also spoken in France so technically it's not a Spanish dialect :D

That can be expected since they're neighbors. Still, Euskadi is a spanish province.


Lapurdi and Zuberoa (Labourd and Soule in French respectively) are not though ;) Euskadi expands to Southwest France so it's not a spanish province :)
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Avestriel
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:12 am 
 

:annoyed: I'm interested in Spanish and French-Spanish dialects then
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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 9:22 am 
 

Avestriel wrote:
:annoyed: I'm interested in Spanish and French-Spanish dialects then


:lol:
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greysnow
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:14 am 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
The connection between the two is pretty weird but it is a fact that some Celtic words derive from a Greek root (and obviously other Celtic words do not).

:) Well, that certainly read as if you thought Celtic was derived from Greek, especially since you started to quote classic IE word relationships. But never mind. Maybe faulty reading comprehension on my part.

Mors_Gloria wrote:
The problem with your PIE theory though is that PIE is not proven yet. It's just a hypothesis. Linguists argue for PIE decades now and they (or I could say we as I aim to be one) have never reached an agreement about its origin (its mere existence is contested too). There is the Glottalic theory (that exclude Anatolian though), the Kurgan hypothesis, Elst's Out Of India model,the Anatolian hypothesis, the Paleolithic Continuity theory and a bunch of others. One cannot be sure for PIE if archaeologists do not help us by excavations. Linguistics is based upon them.


Hail, fellow linguist! :beer:
Yes, PIE is a "theory", but only in the widest sense of that word. Every science and scholarly discipline except maybe mathematics works entirely on the basis of theories. It's in the nature of e.g. physics that a theory can never be proven but only disproven. It's taken as a working basis until something better comes along. That said, PIE has a huge amount of probability speaking for it.

The Glottalic theory works just as well with PIE but just adds another assumption, namely that PIE was influenced by Caucasian languages. I don't know why it would exclude the Anatolian languages. Could you give me a pointer? I'm also not familiar with the other hypotheses you quote (it's been a while since I actually studied Indo-European linguistics), but they seem to be theories about the location of PIE and do not contest its existence?
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Mors_Gloria
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:53 am 
 

greysnow wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
The connection between the two is pretty weird but it is a fact that some Celtic words derive from a Greek root (and obviously other Celtic words do not).

:) Well, that certainly read as if you thought Celtic was derived from Greek, especially since you started to quote classic IE word relationships. But never mind. Maybe faulty reading comprehension on my part.


I just said some words are derived from Greek and not the whole language ;) I wasn't aware that they were common IE roots though. I am still in the learning process as I am only 17 :)
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Lunar_Strain
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:55 pm 
 

I'll keep this short as I am only on to check email, but my interest in how this thread is doing got the better of me.


Mmk, @ Greysnow:

I understand the Teutons were a tribe that the Romans 'wiped out' (Or possibly they split into various group and may have even merged with the Celts of Gaul; In fact, if you recall the book I mentioned earlier, it is said that the early Germanic tribes in Europe were actually subjugated and under Celtic power); What I meant by "Teuton" was, initially, "Teutonic" or "Germanic".

Also, your words on Proto-Celtic and Ancient Greek -- I'm glad you saw that Mors_Gloria did not mean that Celtic spawned out of the Greek Language. We were merely comparing the similarities between the two, trying to find a specific origins for the said languages and peoples.

For the Trojans; If you recall my previous posts, you'll note my theories on the Trojan's language, stating they spoke a certain Greek dialect or they were, indeed, an offshoot of the Anatolian Hittites (Who, supposedly, spoke an Indo-European language; Which this theory, I disagree. I don't see how comparing one person's cuneform to another and then applying the sounds of an already known language to an undeciphered one can bring about the assumption of having 'unlocked' their alphabet.)

This is all I have for now. I'll be happy to elaborate more and continue this when I return from work.

Keep this thread alive! I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion! :)
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Napero wrote:
Lunar_Strain wrote:
Yes. Our Germanic brethren in the Northland never wore bear or wolf fur. =/

Yes they did, but they scavenged them from animals that had died naturally. "Viking" is actually an archaic word for "Vegan".

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greysnow
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Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2008 10:01 am
Posts: 378
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:07 pm 
 

Lunar_Strain wrote:
I don't see how comparing one person's cuneform to another and then applying the sounds of an already known language to an undeciphered one can bring about the assumption of having 'unlocked' their alphabet.)


You mean the process by which Hittite was deciphered? That wasn't so hard, as Hittite basically uses the same type of cuneiform as Akkadian does, with minor variations. You take the known sound values of signs in one language (i.e. Akkadian) and equate them with the same signs in another language (i.e. Hittite), and then you look if those values make for words that look related to any other language.
For comparison, imagine you know Russian and the Cyrillic alphabet, but not the Latin one. You learn the Latin one through learning, say, Italian. Now you see a Polish book. By employing the sound values for Latin letters, which you are now familiar with, you find a lot of words that remind you very much of Russian and come to the conclusion that Polish and Russian may be related.
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Looking up at the stars, I know quite well
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HIDE_TEH_LUNIX
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Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:30 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:12 pm 
 

Just got in today 'A Guide to Old English—Seventh Edition', already mastered the pronunciation and learnt to decline regular weak masculine and neuter words. I love it how this book really is no nonsense, from the start they throw IPA symbols around and start throwing cases without telling you what a dative case is. This was the main complaint of the book in the reviews of the site I bought it at, hahah. I also love it that at the end of a chapter they simply give you titles of texts you by now should be able to read instead of wasting book-space by publishing them in the book, as they are surely findable on the internet and in this way they can include more.

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Lunar_Strain
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Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:29 pm
Posts: 513
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:15 am 
 

greysnow wrote:
Lunar_Strain wrote:
I don't see how comparing one person's cuneform to another and then applying the sounds of an already known language to an undeciphered one can bring about the assumption of having 'unlocked' their alphabet.)


You mean the process by which Hittite was deciphered? That wasn't so hard, as Hittite basically uses the same type of cuneiform as Akkadian does, with minor variations. You take the known sound values of signs in one language (i.e. Akkadian) and equate them with the same signs in another language (i.e. Hittite), and then you look if those values make for words that look related to any other language.
For comparison, imagine you know Russian and the Cyrillic alphabet, but not the Latin one. You learn the Latin one through learning, say, Italian. Now you see a Polish book. By employing the sound values for Latin letters, which you are now familiar with, you find a lot of words that remind you very much of Russian and come to the conclusion that Polish and Russian may be related.


I understand this, but how can we say that just because we've compared two alphabets together and apply sounds from one we know to the one we're trying to decipher are correct? Perhaps I'm wording my explanations wrong, but it seems to me that anthropologists are vasing it off of Akkadian; Just because they use the same alphabet doesn't mean that the letters used in both languages make the same sound: Take for instance, as you said, Russian and the Cyrllic alphabet, but compare it with Ukrainian. Both languages use the same and similar letters, but they do not make the same sound (Though the alphabets are very similar). For example, the Cyrillic character in the Russian alphabet that makes their 'G' sound, is used to make an 'H' in Ukrainian.

All in all, I just think that making assumptions due to similarities in alphabets is inconclusive; You cannot accurately "reconstruct" a 'dead' language this way, or at least, these are my theories.
_________________
Napero wrote:
Lunar_Strain wrote:
Yes. Our Germanic brethren in the Northland never wore bear or wolf fur. =/

Yes they did, but they scavenged them from animals that had died naturally. "Viking" is actually an archaic word for "Vegan".

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