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The_Soul_Punisher
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:34 pm
Posts: 5
Location: Panama
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 2:42 am 
 

Im 13 and I am already listening to satanic and anti-christian bands but i still go to church every sunday.I dont think censorship should exist because we are free to see,hear,say or read whatever we want.It is a law!

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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:48 am 
 

I think it's probably not something that can be answered in hypotheticals. It depends on the kid. If your kid is easily confused or, for lack of a nicer phrase, just plain dumb, you probably don't want them hearing aggressive lyrics. You also probably don't want to give power metal to a hypo kid, since it'll most likely just get them all worked up. However, if the kid seems mature and fairly rational, I don't think they'll be too easily messed up by music or such.

Besides, most boys think war and violence are kickass entertainment anyway. That's why they play with army men and make sword-armed knights out of their legos instead of race cars.
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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:26 am 
 

The_Soul_Punisher wrote:
Im 13 and I am already listening to satanic and anti-christian bands but i still go to church every sunday.I dont think censorship should exist because we are free to see,hear,say or read whatever we want.It is a law!


Nah, I wouldn't support censorship either, what we were discussing was more on the lines of self-censorship!!! :lol: Should the parent be listening to his brutal death at full blare with the kid on his lap?? Probably not a good idea. Is it ok if the kid discovers brutal death at school?? Ok or not, it's out of your control, so no point getting grey hairs worrying over it!! :lol:

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6557
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:02 am 
 

I must say that even though the music itself is definitely not harmful (I think a normal kid would find br00tal music really funny actually :lol:), the satanic lyrics of some black metal acts might have a strong influence on children. Though I must say my attitude towards satanists changed when I heard extreme metal with satanic lyrics for the first time, and I stopped believing in certain stereotypes concerning satanists.
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captain_sharpe
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 9
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 1:05 pm 
 

i think that censor ship is utterly useless in todays wireless age where you can go into your bedroom or into the bathroom and lock the door and just watch whatever porn you want on a laptop and kids are downloading many many songs that have "naughty" words in them from limewire and frostwire so why even try to censor things?

to feel like we have some control in the uncontrolable

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thrashmetalhead
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:44 pm
Posts: 6
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:14 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
deathcorpse wrote:
Do you think it's cool to freak your kids out like that? They don't need to be going to school with DEICIDE in their IPOD at 10. Sorry.


I bought Scream Bloody Gore when I was 11, I see nothing wrong with it.


Same with me. I was also around 11 or 12 whenI bought "De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas." I cannot say anything more for this thread for I am still a kid and wouldn't really know how to raise one, but what a lot of you are saying about having them understand what they are listening/watching first and then letting them do it sounds good to me! My parents know nothing about metal so they couldn't talk to me about say Mayhem or Death but I am smart enough to not take stuff so literally.

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NeglectedField
Onwards to Camulodunum!

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:19 am
Posts: 1390
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:47 pm 
 

Hmm, my experiences of my own parental control as a child. Well, my parents did it for some mediums but not others, but generally my 'exposure' was no earlier than any other kid, probably later.

It tended to be, on occasions when I was allowed to watch a film with a rating above my age or listen to my brother's CDs with Parental Advisory labels, my parents made it clear that certain words/behaviour were acceptable in real life and that there were things that I'm technically not "supposed" to see. Like every time tits came up in a film my dad would gasp suggestively.

When I was young I didn't actively pursue material that my parents wouldn't have approved of, just out of lack of money and the fact my brother had stuff I could look at anyway.

I wouldn't say I was any more or any less sheltered than any other kid but I'd probably be somewhat less prudish than my mother.
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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:01 pm 
 

Quote:
I think it's probably not something that can be answered in hypotheticals. It depends on the kid. If your kid is easily confused or, for lack of a nicer phrase, just plain dumb, you probably don't want them hearing aggressive lyrics. You also probably don't want to give power metal to a hypo kid, since it'll most likely just get them all worked up. However, if the kid seems mature and fairly rational, I don't think they'll be too easily messed up by music or such.


This is a pretty good post.

Quote:
I'm going to work my ass off to make sure that my children know the difference between reality and fantasy when it comes to things like video games and music. And like others have said, the more mature things will be dealt with as they come.


This is another good one, and certainly something that I intend on doing.

I would disagree that 'it's out of your control'- while certain things would be ahrd to supervise, I don't think the internet (which would be the source of most problems, it seems) would be all that difficult. Put the computer in the tv room where you can see your kid, get some sort of net filter- and of course hang around and do stuff with your kid so that they go on the internet and look up porn out of boredom :P. Still, a gentle kind of guiding approach is preferable to being too strict.

Also: regarding self censorship, I can see why it's valid. Basically I just wouldn't smoke weed when my kid was around.

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MikeyC
Official Greeter of Broken Hills

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:16 am
Posts: 10874
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 9:22 pm 
 

caspian wrote:
I would disagree that 'it's out of your control'- while certain things would be ahrd to supervise, I don't think the internet (which would be the source of most problems, it seems) would be all that difficult. Put the computer in the tv room where you can see your kid, get some sort of net filter- and of course hang around and do stuff with your kid so that they go on the internet and look up porn out of boredom :P. Still, a gentle kind of guiding approach is preferable to being too strict.

Also: regarding self censorship, I can see why it's valid. Basically I just wouldn't smoke weed when my kid was around.


How old is the child that they need to use the Internet? I mean, obviously there are sites aimed at the younger generation, but I don't see a 6-year-old child needing the Internet, unless it was for school. And I also can't see them wanting to view porn. Still, a Net filter and surveillance on what your child is viewing is still paramount in avoiding those situations altogether.

As for self-censorship, I also agree. Although mum and dad smoked around me when I was a child. I guess in hindsight it was a good thing, as I fucking abhor cigarettes now. :puke:
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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:03 am 
 

MikeyC wrote:
but I don't see a 6-year-old child needing the Internet, unless it was for school. And I also can't see them wanting to view porn.



I had my 7 - or is it 8, I forget :lol: - year old niece over this January and she reads kid porn on the net, beat that. Worst part, she knows she's doing something that's probably a no-no, so she vehemently insists on privacy and ensures we don't see what she's doing. Of course, once she forgot to clear browsing history (meh, they know all the tricks, all the wrong ones at least, already :/ ), so I did some spywork and found out. I didn't tell her mother about it, because I would have been asked why I invaded her goddamn motherfucking privacy, so I said it's nothing that concerns me and my lips will be sealed. :/

It's when I see things like these that I think the definition of privacy is being stretched way too far. Imo, it is a luxury for little kids, I don't see why they shouldn't be keeping parents in the loop, why they need to hide anything from wellwishers. Besides, they don't REALLY know where they are going, so they need to be steered to safety once in a while.

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MikeyC
Official Greeter of Broken Hills

Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:16 am
Posts: 10874
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:06 am 
 

saintinhell wrote:
MikeyC wrote:
but I don't see a 6-year-old child needing the Internet, unless it was for school. And I also can't see them wanting to view porn.



I had my 7 - or is it 8, I forget :lol: - year old niece over this January and she reads kid porn on the net, beat that. Worst part, she knows she's doing something that's probably a no-no, so she vehemently insists on privacy and ensures we don't see what she's doing. Of course, once she forgot to clear browsing history (meh, they know all the tricks, all the wrong ones at least, already :/ ), so I did some spywork and found out. I didn't tell her mother about it, because I would have been asked why I invaded her goddamn motherfucking privacy, so I said it's nothing that concerns me and my lips will be sealed. :/

It's when I see things like these that I think the definition of privacy is being stretched way too far. Imo, it is a luxury for little kids, I don't see why they shouldn't be keeping parents in the loop, why they need to hide anything from wellwishers. Besides, they don't REALLY know where they are going, so they need to be steered to safety once in a while.


Holy shit, maybe I'm much more naive than I think. I suppose 8 year old children are much more adept than what I think, and much more than we want.

I can see the predicament in your situation, and personally, I believe you did the right decision...if there is a right decision.
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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:08 am 
 

MikeyC wrote:

I can see the predicament in your situation, and personally, I believe you did the right decision...if there is a right decision.


Exactly, there was nothing for me to decide, I care for her (my niece, that is), but I would not want to be seen as interfering when I only had good intentions.

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caspian
Wanderer of the Wastes

Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:29 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:43 am 
 

saintinhell wrote:

It's when I see things like these that I think the definition of privacy is being stretched way too far. Imo, it is a luxury for little kids, I don't see why they shouldn't be keeping parents in the loop, why they need to hide anything from wellwishers. Besides, they don't REALLY know where they are going, so they need to be steered to safety once in a while.


This could probably be a whole other thread. 'Children's rights' or whatever are going way too far these days. Whether it's 13 year olds having abortions that are kept confidential from their parents, or school kids having a say in curriculum at school, (and various over things like discipline, the aforementioned privacy, and so on and so forth) people seem to forget that kids/teens still don't really have as much a capacity of logical, long-term thinking that those who have fully matured have (or should have, anyway).

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captain_sharpe
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 9
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:59 pm 
 

caspian wrote:

This could probably be a whole other thread. 'Children's rights' or whatever are going way too far these days. Whether it's 13 year olds having abortions that are kept confidential from their parents, or school kids having a say in curriculum at school, (and various over things like discipline, the aforementioned privacy, and so on and so forth) people seem to forget that kids/teens still don't really have as much a capacity of logical, long-term thinking that those who have fully matured have (or should have, anyway).


i am a high school student and i would agree that some people don't have that forward thinking that some do but if you look at people in work and stuff they don't even have that forward thinking. i see freshmen here who can argue issues of the country with world history teachers and the teachers then consent so i don't think its a question of age so much as person

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Young_Metalhead
Saanut kerran. Todistetusti.

Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:17 pm
Posts: 1525
Location: México, DF
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:28 pm 
 

Well I'm not that old neither that young. I'm 18 years and started listening to metal at about 15. My mother let me hear whatever I wanted to in that time. She even bought me my first Rammstein CD and she listenet to it with me. She always showed interest in what I like.

After a while I moved into heavier and darker stuff, I started to like thrash at its best, also death and black then she told me why did I enjoyed stuff like that. I told her about the skills, the lyrics, the feeling and she was OK with that you know? BTw she listenes to some sort of urban rock and pop so i had no influence whatsoever. Censorchip shuld not be a problem, casue your parents now exactly what you should or nor see/hear/do depending on how mature you are. Like they said before, you wouldn't give a kid that burns stuff or kills birds a black metal CD. Don't fuel the fire!!!

Support should be another topic for this kind of things, casue if you show your child no support at all then he/she might not listen to your advice end fucking things up. Also don't make him listen to what you like if she/he does not like it. that would only make him do the opposite and may end up being emo lol.

That's just my opinion though
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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 11:53 pm 
 

captain_sharpe wrote:

i am a high school student and i would agree that some people don't have that forward thinking that some do but if you look at people in work and stuff they don't even have that forward thinking. i see freshmen here who can argue issues of the country with world history teachers and the teachers then consent so i don't think its a question of age so much as person


True, but once you're past 15 or so, you're accountable to yourself for your actions and if you still lack forward thinking, etc, it's nobody's fault but yours (a figurative you, that is). To put it bluntly, the parents have a load off their back. :lol: Until then, they feel morally obligated to guide you as best they can.

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captain_sharpe
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 9
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:39 am 
 

saintinhell wrote:
captain_sharpe wrote:

i am a high school student and i would agree that some people don't have that forward thinking that some do but if you look at people in work and stuff they don't even have that forward thinking. i see freshmen here who can argue issues of the country with world history teachers and the teachers then consent so i don't think its a question of age so much as person


True, but once you're past 15 or so, you're accountable to yourself for your actions and if you still lack forward thinking, etc, it's nobody's fault but yours (a figurative you, that is). To put it bluntly, the parents have a load off their back. :lol: Until then, they feel morally obligated to guide you as best they can.


i though it was 18 that your parents weren't responsible at all?
so 15 you may know of your actions and in some cases you are held responsible but you're parents are always involved until you move out

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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:03 am 
 

captain_sharpe wrote:

i though it was 18 that your parents weren't responsible at all?
so 15 you may know of your actions and in some cases you are held responsible but you're parents are always involved until you move out


18 is the age you get legal rights - like voting, driver's licence, eligibility to marry :P and so on. But at 15 you are through with schooling and move onto college (some continue their higher secondary education in school but...) so you get your first taste of world with relatively fewer tabs on your actions, so that's when you have to make your choices without always being able to or wanting to consult your parents. Moving out...um, that's an individual thing, in India, people live almost forever in their ancestral homes or at least with their parents in the latter's apartment, maybe your parents won't pay your bills after a certain stage but moving out need not always happen at 18 or thereabouts.

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captain_sharpe
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 9
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:09 pm 
 

saintinhell wrote:
captain_sharpe wrote:

i though it was 18 that your parents weren't responsible at all?
so 15 you may know of your actions and in some cases you are held responsible but you're parents are always involved until you move out


18 is the age you get legal rights - like voting, driver's licence, eligibility to marry :P and so on. But at 15 you are through with schooling and move onto college (some continue their higher secondary education in school but...) so you get your first taste of world with relatively fewer tabs on your actions, so that's when you have to make your choices without always being able to or wanting to consult your parents. Moving out...um, that's an individual thing, in India, people live almost forever in their ancestral homes or at least with their parents in the latter's apartment, maybe your parents won't pay your bills after a certain stage but moving out need not always happen at 18 or thereabouts.


Where the hell are you from im talking about America here we are still in high school at fifteen unless you are a fucking einstien then you're like out of college and in a lab studying science and shit

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Gothus
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:39 am
Posts: 323
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:55 pm 
 

vondskapens_makt wrote:
deathcorpse wrote:
vondskapens_makt wrote:
SssThsss wrote:
deathcorpse wrote:
I have a 3 1/2 year old son(...)Recently, I played him Slayer


I wish my parents had played me Slayer... this makes me wonder just how I found metal being in a slightly conservative family...


I wish my parents had played me Burzum.


When he's old enough perhaps I'll bust it out if he wants to check it out. Probably what will happen is that he will hear something like COF from a friend and will want to check that out...and I'll then hand him my Burzum vinyl and tell him to "get to work"! :lol:

Actually I'll do him one better, and hand him the first 3 BATHORY records.


:thumbsup: I can forsee your son knowing almost every band listed on this site in due time.

*Goes to find Mors_Gloria

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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:02 am 
 

captain_sharpe wrote:

Where the hell are you from im talking about America here we are still in high school at fifteen unless you are a fucking einstien then you're like out of college and in a lab studying science and shit


I don't know what you people do in America, why should I anyway? :P Where I stay, we are out of high school at 15 and into something called junior college for two years. You get into a degree college after that. Essentially, you are still a high school student because it's the school board and not the university which oversees the exams but you are already exposed to college life, and bunking, chicks, ragging and the rest of it....if you enroll in a particularly tony college, drugs may be part of the deal too. How do you deal with it at 15? Well, we do and even if some students can't and commit suicide to escape ragging (it has happened) one or two deaths are a mere drop in the ocean in a country of a billion people.

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captain_sharpe
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 9
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:00 pm 
 

saintinhell wrote:

I don't know what you people do in America, why should I anyway? :P Where I stay, we are out of high school at 15 and into something called junior college for two years. You get into a degree college after that. Essentially, you are still a high school student because it's the school board and not the university which oversees the exams but you are already exposed to college life, and bunking, chicks, ragging and the rest of it....if you enroll in a particularly tony college, drugs may be part of the deal too. How do you deal with it at 15? Well, we do and even if some students can't and commit suicide to escape ragging (it has happened) one or two deaths are a mere drop in the ocean in a country of a billion people.


I have a friend that has almost gone to juvie like five times and each time was for possesion of marijuana i think and the real funny thing is his mom lets him smoke the crap in the house

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DGYDP
Leather Lion

Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:19 pm
Posts: 1244
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 2:16 pm 
 

captain_sharpe wrote:
I have a friend that has almost gone to juvie like five times and each time was for possesion of marijuana i think and the real funny thing is his mom lets him smoke the crap in the house


Funny? :nono: :boo:

I'm not even going to bother explaining how horribly misplaced that word is in that context.
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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:44 pm 
 

captain_sharpe wrote:

I have a friend that has almost gone to juvie like five times and each time was for possesion of marijuana i think and the real funny thing is his mom lets him smoke the crap in the house


Respect for his individuality sorta crap or just plain despair?? I don't know, either way it's pathetic.

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captain_sharpe
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 9
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 9:29 am 
 

DGYDP wrote:
captain_sharpe wrote:
I have a friend that has almost gone to juvie like five times and each time was for possesion of marijuana i think and the real funny thing is his mom lets him smoke the crap in the house


Funny? :nono: :boo:

I'm not even going to bother explaining how horribly misplaced that word is in that context.


it's funny as in ironic type of way

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Affliction
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:11 am
Posts: 700
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:07 am 
 

It's definitely an interesting concept, I tend to think a lot of the time censoring one's children from certain things has a lot to do with the parents own hang ups and often don't have a whole lot of logic behind them and are often related to one's own limited experiences and judgments or a desire to keep one';s children's from making poor decisions that the parent has made. I guess it's hard to push something out of your vagina (or partners vagina) and nurture it so closely for years without developing some irrational feelings about their dependency on you.

If I had children of my own ideally I'd probably try and limit their exposure to questionable content depending whether or not I think they have the ability to understand it. I don't think there's any golden age, I think it differs greatly from individual to individual. I'd try to be as honest with children as I possibly could, so they can attempt to assess things on their own.

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captain_sharpe
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:14 am
Posts: 9
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:13 am 
 

Affliction wrote:
I'd try to be as honest with children as I possibly could, so they can attempt to assess things on their own.


but some children can't comprehend things of our world unless they are taught how to think clearly. it isn't an ability that everyone has. some adults act like little children and can't comprehend what they are doing as bad or not helpful to their health.

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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:25 am 
 

captain_sharpe wrote:

some adults act like little children and can't comprehend what they are doing as bad or not helpful to their health.


Yes, but like I said earlier in the thread, if you are still acting juvenile as an adult, it's your problem. A parent of a little child must guide him/her if the child cannot understand where he/she's going because a child is not expected to display more than a limited amount of maturity in these matters.

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Affliction
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 1:11 am
Posts: 700
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:08 am 
 

captain_sharpe wrote:
Affliction wrote:
I'd try to be as honest with children as I possibly could, so they can attempt to assess things on their own.


but some children can't comprehend things of our world unless they are taught how to think clearly. it isn't an ability that everyone has. some adults act like little children and can't comprehend what they are doing as bad or not helpful to their health.

I see that as a weighing of values, a choice between weather they value not harming their body or whatever they are getting out this action which is harming their body more. I mean obviously I wouldn't encourage an eleven year old to smoke crack or something, but I think you get the idea behind it. I suppose I believe in letting kid's make their own mistakes (within reason) because that's the way I seem to learn my lessons.

Also I guess another thing I didn't consider in my earlier post is different kid's need different things from their parents.

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logboy
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:27 am
Posts: 15
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:34 pm 
 

Just turning 18 myself i can look at this from the point of view as someone who is just recently getting total freedom from the idea of parental control.

Luckily my parents recognized my maturity in terms of movies and music choices, letting me watch graphic movies and listen to whatever i wanted to because they knew i was mature enough to handle these things and wasnt influenced by them. Of course there was a degree of reason, as in i wasnt allowed to watch violent movies until at least 9 or 10, and of my own will i never actually began listening to extreme metal until i was 13 anyways, but parents need to recognize maturity in their children and respond to it, rather than just protecting them because of what society dictates in terms of people of a certain age cant watch violence in movies and such.

The only thing my parents were ever controlling of was staying out at night, which i have only had freedom in the past couple of years after leaving high school, which is understandable knowing the dangers of wandering around the town at night around here.

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SilenceIsConsent
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:46 pm
Posts: 14
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:18 pm 
 

ForNaught wrote:
This is inspired by the latest "my parents won't let me buy the CDs I want" whinge thread.

I'm sure we all agree that given the very graphic and often disturbing nature of some film, literature, art and so on, it is important for parents to censor their children's consumption of same, at least at an early age. At least, my Western, faintly moralising mores tell me so. If you disagree with this fundamental, please don't hold your peace, but I'll assume for now that we don't little Jimmy to grow up all traumatised and warped.

I am equally sure that at some point this control needs to be withdrawn. One of an (able, mentally-fit and so forth) adult's rights is to be able to consume art, pulp, porn and other products as they see fit. For myself, at the age of almost twenty-one, I would be shocked to the core were my father to tell me that some book or film may not be appropriate to me.

But if we accept these two vaguely-defined boundary conditions to hold true-- almost absolute censorship during infancy and none in adulthood-- then an undefined region is left in between. And this is what I am interested in.

How should one taper a child's priveleges? I doubt that any healthy and normally-functioning (again, by my cultural standards and mores, humour me) family would attempt to hold iron control on a child until they reach some arbitrary age, most likely eighteen or twenty-one, and then let go completely. It follows that a progressive relaxation is called for-- but what over what age range, and how exactly ought it be handled? Will it really hurt little Jimmy, age 7, if he sees an R-rated movie with boobies and blood? Is it better that he be exposed to the realities (where applicable in the arts) earlier rather than later? And how then do we feel about James, age 14, or Jim, age 17? Further to this, should the "lines" be strictly-defined or blurry? I remember being forbidden from reading Stoker's Dracula; I'm not sure what age I was but would have been in the six to ten bracket somewhere. I was told that I could read it when I was thirteen. Is this kind of crystalline ordering a good idea, or does it give the child something concrete to rebel against?

And then there is the age-old issue of what qualifies as art. Typically things that are seen "art" are acceptable more quickly than things that are not, barring of course among the ultra-conservative. Are we comfortable with our imaginary fifteen-year-old looking at naked ladies on the internet? How about if the lady is made of stone and sitting in a museum? How about if she is back on the internet, but beautifully posed and photographed? This issue of course translates into the musical censorship idea that made me think about this tonight.

What of the internet in general? Is "parental protection" appropriate, desirable, or necessary? Is it all three? Is it none of the above?

I have deliberately left all of this quite nebulous, in order to allow the thread room to breathe and grow. Please, if one aspect of all of this grabs you in particular, seize on it and expand; I'd find that far more interesting than a post of short answers to each question that I have explicitly raised. I'm hoping for a flexible, but in-depth discussion here. But please, if you are currently in a position where your parents can/do exert this kind of control over you, don't whine about it here. If you have some interesting insights as a result of it, of course, by all means share. The purpose of this thread, however, is to consider the nuances of the control a parent can actually have over a child, and the moral and ethical implications; not to complain about their effect on you. I'm not trying to be a dick about it, even if I am succeeding; that's just not what I'm trying to provoke here.

I'd be particularly interested to hear from any parents hanging around. How have YOU handled it? And do you feel that you were right? And does being right matter? Is it difficult for you to regulate, or does it all come naturally?


I got a good experience from this.

Since I sometimes need to have some extra money, I take up a second job to do babysitting. I tend to babysit kids aged from 4 to 12 and it usually is pretty fun. One story about this was the first kid I ever babysat for and who I continue to babysit for. I won't give his name for privacy reasons, but he was six when I started babysitting for him.

One time the kid's parents thought it would be a good idea to drop him off at my house while they went to a business dinner, so he came over and the first thing he did was go up to my room. There he started looking through some of my CDs and found my Exodus album Fabulous Disaster. He asked if he could listen and I figured it was not too bad so we listened. He ended up thinking it was really cool and asked what kind of music it was. I told him it was called metal, and when his parents came back to pick him up he told them we listened to metal ranging from Exodus to Children of Bodom, Helloween to Marduk. Least to say they were a bit disturbed at first and said I should not play it around him anymore. Their exact quotes was "we would prefer that ******** not be exposed to such vulgar content and we were rather surprised you let him expose himself to it".

But every time I came over his house or he came over mine, the first thing he did was ask if we could listen to some metal. He always convinced me out of it, and eventually his parents stop caring and just let him listen. Once I got it past them that he wasn't hurting himself and his mind was not poisoned by the music, they said it was fine. Now he's ten years old, his favorite band is Megadeth (just like me) and he is a happy and highly intelligent kid who is playing in an orchestra longside kids 3 to four years older then he is.

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Mezentus
Blood on my hands

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:23 pm
Posts: 1246
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:45 pm 
 

Look, I'm 14, and I may be one of the more evil, 'satanic' [actually anti-religion, but thats how I've been viewed], and messed up 14 year olds who is obsessed with black metal. But, I'm one of the nicest people you will meet, I'm trustworthy and honest, I have a sense of humour, and I'm not selfish. Pretty much, I'm a great person when it comes to being social.

All I can say is, wait until you feel its right to introduce your child to metal. My dad was blasting Master of Puppets all the time when I was 6, and now I'm into such stuff as Nefarium and Shining. If your child gets into metal at a young age, make sure he doesn't take it too seriously, and if he is starting to become 'corrupted' and into evil shit, then thats when you have to take control. Even then, if they do, reassure them that they are going to be a considerate and kind person when their older, instead of misanthropic. I watched Hannibal at the age of 5, maybe not the best thing, but it certainly didn't make me the fucked up person I am, that all came with due experience.

You can't control your son/daughter's life, but you can certaibly take ahold of whats going on and change their direction.

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incarcerated_demon
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:21 pm
Posts: 195
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:02 am 
 

caspian wrote:
saintinhell wrote:

It's when I see things like these that I think the definition of privacy is being stretched way too far. Imo, it is a luxury for little kids, I don't see why they shouldn't be keeping parents in the loop, why they need to hide anything from wellwishers. Besides, they don't REALLY know where they are going, so they need to be steered to safety once in a while.


This could probably be a whole other thread. 'Children's rights' or whatever are going way too far these days. Whether it's 13 year olds having abortions that are kept confidential from their parents, or school kids having a say in curriculum at school, (and various over things like discipline, the aforementioned privacy, and so on and so forth) people seem to forget that kids/teens still don't really have as much a capacity of logical, long-term thinking that those who have fully matured have (or should have, anyway).


Sorry for potentially derailing the thread - would you not agree in principle at least to children having some rights of self-determination, if they are competent and mature enough? This is in principle, disregarding empirical data about children's actual maturity. There is an argument that this paternalism is actually stunting children's growth into adulthood - by denying them their right to make choices, we're actually denying them the chance to critically think about their aims and wants and how their desires may sometimes run counter to their welfare, and to make critical well-reasoned choices.

Also, captain_sharpe made a valid point. Some adults I know shouldn't be allowed to open their mouth, let alone vote or be allowed near the internet. Yet we don't deny their right to self-determination. What is it about this mystical, arbitrary age of 18/21 that defines one as an adult with all accruing rights and liabilities?

I actually did a dissertation a couple of months back arguing for the child's right to choose to die, ie physician assisted suicide for kids, so I feel quite strongly about children's rights, in abstract at least.

Okay, back on topic now. Sorry..

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DarkLust666
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:05 pm
Posts: 116
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:07 am 
 

My parents don't shelter me from hardly anything. I was watching rated R films when I was five or six; I found porn when I was ten or eleven. My mother said that it's silly to stop me and my brother from listening to whatever music we wanted to. No matter what, we were going to listen to it and she was going to hate it. She'd never buy me censored music; and if it was censored she would take it back and get an non-censored disc. I believe my fist actual metal cd was a Moonspell cd, then 'Hate Crew Deathroll'. I am thankful that she didn't let me go to a Cradle of Filth show though :D

But as for me raising a kid (if it happens unfortunately), I would raise him/her the same way that I was regarding music and films.

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MasticateTheNecro
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 9:29 pm
Posts: 262
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:08 pm 
 

DarkLust666 wrote:
My parents don't shelter me from hardly anything. I was watching rated R films when I was five or six; I found porn when I was ten or eleven. My mother said that it's silly to stop me and my brother from listening to whatever music we wanted to. No matter what, we were going to listen to it and she was going to hate it. She'd never buy me censored music; and if it was censored she would take it back and get an non-censored disc. I believe my fist actual metal cd was a Moonspell cd, then 'Hate Crew Deathroll'. I am thankful that she didn't let me go to a Cradle of Filth show though :D

But as for me raising a kid (if it happens unfortunately), I would raise him/her the same way that I was regarding music and films.


:lol: I found porn at 11, I remember me and my friend would watch like Extreme Teen 7 or something then we would say that we needed to pray for forgiveness. Good times.

Sounds like your mom is anti-censorship. My parents are so in love with censorship they almost had heart attacks when they read the song titles to Agoraphobic Nosebleed's "Frozen Corpse Stuffed With Dope." Keep in mind this was when I was 15. They were freaking out because they hadn't been very much acquainted with things outside of their own little bubble of thought. It's taken them almost two years to even BEGIN to accept that Cannibal Corpse covers are just horror art, and not "mind-warping devil music" (that's Endstille :hail:)
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goatmanejy
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:38 am
Posts: 218
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:11 pm 
 

I think parent should allow more room for there child to know what effects them or not. I know what effects me. I wish my parents would allow me more freedom, but I understand that its more-or-less for my own good. The majority of the music I listen to would shock and offend my mother, but I find it mostly nonoffensive, and have observed very little change in my behavior since I began listening to it, except that I am totally numb to fictional violence, which I actually consider to be a positive trait since it makes me more emotionally sound.

As for what is considered art, I think thats ridiculous. The way i see it, art is any way in which you express creativity. This makes practically all media art. I have experienced this alot; I like Gwar alot, and some people I know at school constantly criticise them for being unartistic. This is ridiculous. They sound totally unlike any other band. Thats definitely creative. They have a good singer and a good guitarist; thats artistic, not to mention that they are former art school students and the costumes and theatrics are art. :hail:

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saintinhell
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 15, 2006 8:19 am
Posts: 1426
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:11 am 
 

incarcerated_demon wrote:
Sorry for potentially derailing the thread - would you not agree in principle at least to children having some rights of self-determination, if they are competent and mature enough? This is in principle, disregarding empirical data about children's actual maturity.


What is the threshold of maturity, then?? That is something on which the parents have to take a call. I am completely against any blanket removal of any kind of restrictions at all because it depends on each child as to what extent they discipline themselves, so it should be settled on a case-by-case. I don't think a child who is misusing her privacy and freedom as I mentioned should be just given a wide berth by the parents and left to her devices. Stop holding them back in the mid-teens because they can't learn to fly in a day anyway, but I really don't see anything wrong in a judicious mix of liberation and protection.

A child upon committing a crime is tried as a juvenile offender and therefore his/her punishment is also more lenient; in the same way it follows that a child cannot have the freedom to make all the decisions an adult makes unless he/she already possesses the judgement of a mature, wise adult. These days, human rights organizations are only concerned with the rights part of it, they forget that every country's charter also binds citizens to certain duties and nobody cares that these duties are given the short shrift.

Even a tigress cocoons her cubs and burrows them away from predatory eyes until they are big enough to fend for themselves, so why such misplaced bravado for humans? And no, I don't think a child should be allowed to decide when he/she can die except in specific circumstances. When I was a kid and was medicated for asthma, I used to feel so uneasy that I thought I was going to die (of course I wasn't :P). So?? Call up the doc to apply euthanasia on me. Thank heavens nothing of the sort was done.

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EpicTightPants
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:59 am
Posts: 10
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:09 am 
 

Porn will be a no in my home as long as my son is under 18. If he happens to still be living here at that age, what he looks at is his business, though I'll appreciate him being secretive enough that I will not know about it.

As for things like movies and tv shows, I will just go with the ratings.

When it comes to music, I really don't want to restrict him, but I will to a certain extent. Even now, at 27, there is music I am uncomfortable with and would not want him listening to were he old enough to show interest.

I'm a mommy of one. He didn't come with a manual and I'm pretty much feeling my way as I go. I can only do my best and hope it's good enough. Perhaps as these things become issues, my opinions will change. There is no knowing until I'm faced with it.. and I would like to think I have lots of time yet, as he's not even two at the moment.

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InfernoNecrosis
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:57 pm
Posts: 242
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 11:24 am 
 

Well, I'm 17, and I can tell you a few things: I've never really been censored heavily by my parents... usually just keeping me from small things that really matter to no one... and I've no criminal record, never got into an unwarranted fight, have normal friends, and generally, I'm just a regular teenager. Hell I remember I'd watch gore movies at 12 and I loved it. I think the only time that violent imagery had really gotten to me was once when I was 9, but nothing else, really. You pretty much let go of that stuff later on and don't really care.

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