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BrokenPentagram
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
Posts: 41
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:01 pm 
 

Driotheri wrote:
Now imagine that your Uncle still had his shop, but everyone around you lived in even worse situations than now, only without the doctors or free education.

It simply wasn't the wealthy people's fault that they were wealthy. As for the poor, life simply isn't fair, and the most they can do is work very hard and maybe one day they could have a family and have their own shop. Fidel Castro isn't any better than the "capitalist maggots" when he takes what took countless families generations to earn. I believe that Cuba in those years needed a huge economic overhaul but having a free market economy similar to Capitalism would have been much better for the country than a forced state of "equality" where everything was taken away from those who earned it and those who expressed themselves in a peaceful manner where tortured and killed. 6000 is just an estimate between the years of 1959 and 1966 as the total number of deliberate executions and unfair military trials goes far beyond 10,000. Had Fidel Castro simply taken over and made few economic policy changes to help those in need instead of drastically taking away what belonged to families then perhaps Cuba would easily surpass the US in quality of life and be regarded as a the paradise the Communist Government there claims it is in order to attract tourists to it. You foreigners know about Cuba only what Fidel Castro and the US has let you see because you have never lived there. Yet you claim that Fidel Castro is such a good leader simply for going against the United States and for standing strong on his "communist ideals". I ask of this world and of humanity, how many more people have to die before we realize that useless structures of government such as Communism are only good on paper but in real life are worth less than a cup of shit?

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Knjaz_Milos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:56 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:06 pm 
 

BrokenPentagram wrote:
What right did Fidel Castro have to take what did not belong to him? Cuba was doing very good before Castro stepped in although it had some minor problems like every economy does every now and then. The "wealthy" people have a right to be wealthy and it's not like they got wealthy off of killing people. To give you a good example, my great uncle had a store in Cuba which was taken from him by the government once Fidel and his asshole squad took over. He was unable to feed his VERY large family effectively because they all worked the store and once the store was taken from him it was re-opened only to sell what my great uncle sold for a higher price which goes to show you the kind of asshole Fidel Castro really is. Don't give me bullshit now saying that if you had a business that you would give it away because some asshole told you to. Cuba does not have world-class health care. Yeah, health care is free, but there are no medicines or materials. The life expectancy is only so high because Cuba has 11 million people when compared to the US' 300 million. The education in Cuba is a bunch of crap and I tell you this from experience. The true history of the country has been distorted under Castro's regime to an extravagance of brainwashing crap. Since everyone around here seems to claim that Cuba is not a dictatorship then why don't you go to Cuba and speak out against the government. Cuba would have been better off without Castro. Don't be so quick to call the exile community in Miami "wealthy cowards". Fidel Castro had no right to take anything from them. I can understand a classless society and all that but where in the communist manifesto does it say that a communist leader has a right to kill thousands of people while the country lives in misery and they get richer. What right did Fidel Castro have to take anything that did not belong to him? Cuba would have been much better off with another American "puppet" as their president. At least with that Cuba would have a much higher quality of life and so many people would not have lost their lives for "equality".


Damn man, you just gave a nice example of how a defenseless little animal reacts when it is cornered with it's back to the wall: barking out some incoherent, unfounded statements and propaganda quotes, combined with a diarrhea of uncontrolled anger and frustration. Together with your statement a few posts higher (the one were you attack me personally), these two are nice examples of how little kids in kindergarten try to impress and fight: "...my father is much stronger than yours...na na na..."
Maybe you should first learn to state your opinions in a calm, structured and respectful manner?
But enough about the packaging of your statements, let's get to the content. I could write an essay to invalidate your claims one by one (especially the one on "Cuba was doing very good before Castro stepped in"), but unfortunately I do not really see a merit for that. Many others on this forum already have a more nuanced look and knowledge on this subject, and people like you are rarely open to other persons views on a certain matter, let alone that they would step down a bit from their claims and accept some criticism or more neutral opinions. So, maybe you could try to inform yourself a bit better, and also try to situate your great uncle's personal frustration in the bigger picture. You hold it against me that I am distant to the whole situation, you are probably to close to it all.

And btw, it is not because some posters location on this board says "Belgium", "US" or "Saint Vincent and the Grenadines" that this person is by definition ignorant on Cuba (or any other topic) or has no well-founded knowledge or the right for argumentation on the subject. Please try to be a little less arrogant!

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Knjaz_Milos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:56 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:10 pm 
 

BrokenPentagram wrote:
Fidel Castro isn't any better than the "capitalist maggots" when he takes what took countless families generations to earn.


...more like "what took a few families short time to steal"

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BrokenPentagram
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
Posts: 41
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 8:58 pm 
 

Knjaz_Milos wrote:
BrokenPentagram wrote:
Fidel Castro isn't any better than the "capitalist maggots" when he takes what took countless families generations to earn.


...more like "what took a few families short time to steal"

To call all those families thieves is no better than to call Fidel Castro a murderer.

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BrokenPentagram
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
Posts: 41
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 9:21 pm 
 

Knjaz_Milos wrote:
BrokenPentagram wrote:
What right did Fidel Castro have to take what did not belong to him? Cuba was doing very good before Castro stepped in although it had some minor problems like every economy does every now and then. The "wealthy" people have a right to be wealthy and it's not like they got wealthy off of killing people. To give you a good example, my great uncle had a store in Cuba which was taken from him by the government once Fidel and his asshole squad took over. He was unable to feed his VERY large family effectively because they all worked the store and once the store was taken from him it was re-opened only to sell what my great uncle sold for a higher price which goes to show you the kind of asshole Fidel Castro really is. Don't give me bullshit now saying that if you had a business that you would give it away because some asshole told you to. Cuba does not have world-class health care. Yeah, health care is free, but there are no medicines or materials. The life expectancy is only so high because Cuba has 11 million people when compared to the US' 300 million. The education in Cuba is a bunch of crap and I tell you this from experience. The true history of the country has been distorted under Castro's regime to an extravagance of brainwashing crap. Since everyone around here seems to claim that Cuba is not a dictatorship then why don't you go to Cuba and speak out against the government. Cuba would have been better off without Castro. Don't be so quick to call the exile community in Miami "wealthy cowards". Fidel Castro had no right to take anything from them. I can understand a classless society and all that but where in the communist manifesto does it say that a communist leader has a right to kill thousands of people while the country lives in misery and they get richer. What right did Fidel Castro have to take anything that did not belong to him? Cuba would have been much better off with another American "puppet" as their president. At least with that Cuba would have a much higher quality of life and so many people would not have lost their lives for "equality".


Damn man, you just gave a nice example of how a defenseless little animal reacts when it is cornered with it's back to the wall: barking out some incoherent, unfounded statements and propaganda quotes, combined with a diarrhea of uncontrolled anger and frustration. Together with your statement a few posts higher (the one were you attack me personally), these two are nice examples of how little kids in kindergarten try to impress and fight: "...my father is much stronger than yours...na na na..."
Maybe you should first learn to state your opinions in a calm, structured and respectful manner?
But enough about the packaging of your statements, let's get to the content. I could write an essay to invalidate your claims one by one (especially the one on "Cuba was doing very good before Castro stepped in"), but unfortunately I do not really see a merit for that. Many others on this forum already have a more nuanced look and knowledge on this subject, and people like you are rarely open to other persons views on a certain matter, let alone that they would step down a bit from their claims and accept some criticism or more neutral opinions. So, maybe you could try to inform yourself a bit better, and also try to situate your great uncle's personal frustration in the bigger picture. You hold it against me that I am distant to the whole situation, you are probably to close to it all.

And btw, it is not because some posters location on this board says "Belgium", "US" or "Saint Vincent and the Grenadines" that this person is by definition ignorant on Cuba (or any other topic) or has no well-founded knowledge or the right for argumentation on the subject. Please try to be a little less arrogant!

Propaganda does absolutely nothing for me as I believe in no single type of government. Communism however is indeed the failure of the 20th century. Democracy seems to me the best thing that humanity has going on. The reason I was so "arrogant" on how foreigners cannot know what Cuba is like unless they've actually lived there is because the Cuban Government spends time and money to create a just and righteous image for his precious country, therefore foreigners cannot know what it is truly like to live in there. Fidel Castro is literally a very wealthy man himself. So you'd say that the Cuban exiles are thieves and that they stole from the poor (who had nothing that could be stolen), yet Fidel Castro is no better than all the thieves that you claim the exiles are because he himself gave land to the poor only to take it away years later and use it for his own gain. The Cuban government more than any other government is thoroughly corrupt. It is a FACT that there have been more than 10,000 unfair trials and executions as well as missing people whom their families will never see again because of Fidel Castro's tyranny. Cuba's health care system may provide free health for all of Cuba's citizens but there is a lack of medicine and supplies. Tourists and Government officials are treated like people while the Cubans are treated no better than animals. Cubans who live in the Island are not even allowed to visit the Hotels because they are made for the Tourists. This apartheid which lets Tourists be treated better than Cubans who live on the Island could certainly not have been conjured up by a man who is truly just. As for me being narrow minded and closed to other people's views, other people's views are simply worth a cup of shit to me because those other people are not Cuban, plain and simple. I will not argue with a Norwegian about his country's politics because nobody can really know as much about Norway as a Norwegian. Cuba had times of great economical surplus before Castro stepped in. I am as well informed as I can possibly be and all that I know about Cuba I have learned from living there and from the older relatives in my family. I am sorry if I came off really harsh about this, but this is something I feel VERY strong about.

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maxxpower
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:04 pm
Posts: 399
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:44 pm 
 

jaja, every cuban exile has an uncle that owned a store or something

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Balth
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:24 am
Posts: 558
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 3:18 am 
 

BrokenPentagram wrote:
What right did Fidel Castro have to take what did not belong to him? Cuba was doing very good before Castro stepped in although it had some minor problems like every economy does every now and then. The "wealthy" people have a right to be wealthy and it's not like they got wealthy off of killing people. To give you a good example, my great uncle had a store in Cuba which was taken from him by the government once Fidel and his asshole squad took over. He was unable to feed his VERY large family effectively because they all worked the store and once the store was taken from him it was re-opened only to sell what my great uncle sold for a higher price which goes to show you the kind of asshole Fidel Castro really is. Don't give me bullshit now saying that if you had a business that you would give it away because some asshole told you to. Cuba does not have world-class health care. Yeah, health care is free, but there are no medicines or materials. The life expectancy is only so high because Cuba has 11 million people when compared to the US' 300 million. The education in Cuba is a bunch of crap and I tell you this from experience. The true history of the country has been distorted under Castro's regime to an extravagance of brainwashing crap. Since everyone around here seems to claim that Cuba is not a dictatorship then why don't you go to Cuba and speak out against the government. Cuba would have been better off without Castro. Don't be so quick to call the exile community in Miami "wealthy cowards". Fidel Castro had no right to take anything from them. I can understand a classless society and all that but where in the communist manifesto does it say that a communist leader has a right to kill thousands of people while the country lives in misery and they get richer. What right did Fidel Castro have to take anything that did not belong to him? Cuba would have been much better off with another American "puppet" as their president. At least with that Cuba would have a much higher quality of life and so many people would not have lost their lives for "equality".

1. How was Cuba very good before the revolution? Is a country with a very small fraction of very rich people while the rest of the population is exploited by the rich and by American companies, a good country now? The wealth was extremely unevenly distributed; the overall economy may have been strong, but after the revolution the conditions of the working class improved, and workers could start working for their own country instead of working for some asshole in a suit sitting behind a desk in New York.

2. Cuba does indeed have world-class healthcare. It's not just free, it is a top government priority (which in itself is some evidence that the government does actually give a shit about its people, unlike the former government). Cuba has the second highest doctor-to-patient ratio in the world, second only to Italy. Cuba has the lowest HIV rates in the Americas. Cuba attracts 20,000 health tourists a year, and undertakes advanced medical research.
You say Cuba's life expectancy is as high as the US' just because the population is lower? That is some really strange reasoning you've got there. Venezuela has a lower population than the US too. Does that mean it has a higher life expectancy? The population doesn't have a major effect on the clear indicator of general health, which is life expectancy. If things worked according to how you say it, then that would mean the smaller a population, the longer everybody would live. You simply can't use population as an argument.
Stop lying to yourself when the evidence of good healthcare in Cuba is clearly in front of you, statistics not just from the Cuban government but from global sources.

3. The education in Cuba may be filled with propaganda, but that doesn't mean it hasn't been effective in educating the population. You can't deny the fact that Cuba has the highest literacy rates in Latin America. How does a country achieve such high literacy rates without a decent education system, regardless of whether it's filled with propaganda or not?

I can understand why you would take your point of view on the subject, as you come from a family of exiles who were better-off than most of the working class, and obviously had been taught by your family to hate the Castro government from a young age. However some of your arguments simply aren't valid, and Castro certainly isn't as terrible as you exaggerate your "facts" and opinions to suggest. You hate Castro with a passion, and I can see some of your passion is so strong it has clouded reason and consideration of all factors. I realize I can't change your opinion, so I'll let you have your opinion on the matter, and I'll have mine. However I have stated my reasoning and provided the evidence for my point-of-view, while your arguments tended to be angry ramblings consisting of only your feelings and your own distorted facts on the subject.
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Knjaz_Milos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:56 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:01 am 
 

BrokenPentagram wrote:
Knjaz_Milos wrote:
BrokenPentagram wrote:
Fidel Castro isn't any better than the "capitalist maggots" when he takes what took countless families generations to earn.


...more like "what took a few families short time to steal"

To call all those families thieves is no better than to call Fidel Castro a murderer.


My comment should not been taken letter by letter/word by word how it is written, but you had to read in-between the lines. I am sorry when that was not obvious enough.

a few families
= mainly US backed landowners or industrialists, or "Cubans" that since Spanish occupation had privileges and were able to continue them, or took the opportunity during the change of power from Spain to the US in 1898 to advance in the hierarchy - what is mostly not achieved by hard an honest work in such a short time, but more by activities "that shun the daylight" as we would say in Dutch.

a short time to steal
= since Cuba's independence form Spain (1898) till Castro's revolution (1959), it is highly unlikely that many people from the bottom lines of poverty and oppression they lived in, were able to rise and build up a decent living using legitimate, honest and fair conditions. Therefore I think it is rather hypocrite to accuse Castro's revolution to have destroyed the lives of a big part of honest good living people that are now worse off.

For the rest I have to congratulate "Balth" for his clear, structured and moderate countering of "BrokenPentagram"'s claims. One short thing I would like to add concerning the rant against health-care in Cuba:
BrokenPentagram wrote:
Yeah, health care is free, but there are no medicines or materials.

There is an enormous difference in educating/training qualified doctors and nurses, what Cuban government has done and is still doing excellently, who provide adequate medical examinations, and accurate treatment of the determined disease/disorder, and the problem of not having enough medicines and medical equipment/materials.
The embargo makes it very difficult for Cuba to import the needed medicines and quantities of it, or the needed medical equipment. So it is not really something they choose, but more the US fault that the country lacks the necessary medicines and materials! If you fail to acknowledge that, then I am afraid that you are doing this stubbornly only because it does not fit your opinion about the regime, and you just cannot stand that the Cuban regime is doing good things.
I myself have experienced both issues concerning good health-care and unfortunate lack of medicines/materials during my travels in Cuba. An before you start flaming, those travels were not "government guided tourist tours" but my own dwellings throughout the whole country for weeks/months, avoiding other tourist or most typical tourist attractions. My objective was to mix as much as possible with the people, talk and listen to them regardless of what opinions they had, the more diverse those opinions were, the better, and I can say that I have encountered very divers opinions!

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Vrede
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:07 pm
Posts: 752
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:31 am 
 

That really is the end of an era. I admire him for the way he conquered/free (or whatever)Cuba, for staying in office for such a long time, for surviving plenty of attempts of assassination and for simply giving a big fuck on the western powers (at least in the early days of his reign).

However, I'm certain, that Raúl won't make it for long. When Castro (Fidel) dies, some greedy militarians will kick him out of his palace. He simply isn't a leader person like his brother.

Maybe the US will also try another naval assault :lol:
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TheStormIRide
Jesuscop

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:45 pm
Posts: 806
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 10:50 am 
 

The only way the US would launch another assault on Cuba is if another Republican war monger takes office (read McCain) or if George W. decides to launch this grand assault before he leaves office, which is highly unlikely... not only because of the still-ongoing "wars for freedom" in Iraq and Afghanistan but because the House and Senate know that a Republican will not take office. A Democrat is going to be elected as the next president of the US and they know that a vast majority of the people here do not want another war.

Could this be a sign that the US will stop trying to make other countries in their image? Probably not...

But back to the point, I couldn't see the US launching any type of assault on Cuba. With any luck, a new leader in Cuba might be able to get economic stimulus going and eventually open trade with the US.
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
Posts: 7741
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:07 am 
 

Call me a pinko if you will, but I always thought Castro was the coolest of the "big, evil baby-eating dictators". Something about the little cap and the casually smoked cigar.

All he needed was two thumbs up and a Fonzie "Ayyyyyyyy!" to be the coolest dude in power.
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TheStormIRide
Jesuscop

Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:45 pm
Posts: 806
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:55 pm 
 

Image

Does this really look like the Fonz?
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Osmium wrote:
And I'm sure old Adolf never meant anything bad when he rounded up those Jews. Nice try, Hitler.

Napero wrote:
Say hello to Baby Jesus for me when you don't meet him after you die.

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BrokenPentagram
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
Posts: 41
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 6:00 pm 
 

maxxpower wrote:
jaja, every cuban exile has an uncle that owned a store or something

Most of the ones who did came between 1959 and 1970, the majority of the people who came after that including the Mariel Boat-lift were working class. This includes the people from Cuba's Jails and asylums, and a lot of the people who were in jail where in jail because they spoke against the government.

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Dasher10
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:55 pm
Posts: 23
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:02 am 
 

Driotheri wrote:
Now imagine that your Uncle still had his shop, but everyone around you lived in even worse situations than now, only without the doctors or free education.


I wouldn't mind. I'm the rightful heir to a sugarcane plantation! My mom was the firstborn daughter and I'm her firstborn son. My grandparents fled because they were part of the Cuban upper class and moved to the large Cuban community in New Jersey.

the way I see it is that if Cuba reopens it's markets, then I can potentially make a bid for lots and lots of SUGAR!!!!!!!!!!! And sugar is yummy.

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