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Lokar
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:12 pm
Posts: 129
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:53 am 
 

maxxpower wrote:
Think about it, let's assume your not some rich person who has life made up and stuff, and let's assume you don't live in the U.S., so if the U.S. government assures you that if you swim a couple of miles from wherever you live to the U.S., the government will give you a home, a job , and pretty much your life will be easier and better, wouldn't you escape wherever it is that you live?


Precisely: the reason why Cubans are fleeing their nation is not because Castro is a brutal, oppressive tyrant, but because of the economic situation. Statistically the largest amounts of people fled Cuba in the early 1990s, when the nation was plunged into deep economic decline by the breakup of the Soviet Union.
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Balth
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:24 am
Posts: 558
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:29 am 
 

Lokar wrote:
maxxpower wrote:
Think about it, let's assume your not some rich person who has life made up and stuff, and let's assume you don't live in the U.S., so if the U.S. government assures you that if you swim a couple of miles from wherever you live to the U.S., the government will give you a home, a job , and pretty much your life will be easier and better, wouldn't you escape wherever it is that you live?


Precisely: the reason why Cubans are fleeing their nation is not because Castro is a brutal, oppressive tyrant, but because of the economic situation. Statistically the largest amounts of people fled Cuba in the early 1990s, when the nation was plunged into deep economic decline by the breakup of the Soviet Union.


Plus Cuba's economic problems are made worse by the sanctions and economic isolation forced upon it by the US and EU. In fact I'd say that Cuba's situation is largely due to the prejudice and pointless opposition against it displayed by the US, and not because of Castro's "tyranny" and "oppression", as portrayed by American propaganda.

Flame me all you want if you're an anti-Communist, but I think Castro is a great man. He came and overthrew the US-backed upper-class who were oppressing the working class, then proceeded to defy and resist against US influence and military intimidation to defend his ideals for nearly half a century. This is one of the biggest problems I have with the US government, and probably the biggest factor which makes me hate them: the way they're, as before mentioned, sadistically isolating and pressuring Cuba because of its Communist government which came and kicked out all the American big businesses which were making a lot of money out of Cuba, at the expense of the working class, and because of Cuba's defiance against American influence.
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Knjaz_Milos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:56 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:02 am 
 

Balth wrote:
Lokar wrote:
Precisely: the reason why Cubans are fleeing their nation is not because Castro is a brutal, oppressive tyrant, but because of the economic situation. Statistically the largest amounts of people fled Cuba in the early 1990s, when the nation was plunged into deep economic decline by the breakup of the Soviet Union.


Plus Cuba's economic problems are made worse by the sanctions and economic isolation forced upon it by the US and EU. In fact I'd say that Cuba's situation is largely due to the prejudice and pointless opposition against it displayed by the US, and not because of Castro's "tyranny" and "oppression", as portrayed by American propaganda.

Flame me all you want if you're an anti-Communist, but I think Castro is a great man. He came and overthrew the US-backed upper-class who were oppressing the working class, then proceeded to defy and resist against US influence and military intimidation to defend his ideals for nearly half a century. This is one of the biggest problems I have with the US government, and probably the biggest factor which makes me hate them: the way they're, as before mentioned, sadistically isolating and pressuring Cuba because of its Communist government which came and kicked out all the American big businesses which were making a lot of money out of Cuba, at the expense of the working class, and because of Cuba's defiance against American influence.


That's right! My opinion too.

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Johnie_Duper
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 5:35 am
Posts: 53
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:44 am 
 

Knjaz_Milos wrote:
Try to get some info on Cuba and Castro that does not come from Fox, CNN and the likes, and you'll see that Cuba and it's leaders are totally different than what your perception of them is. They are no saints, but they definitely are not the monsters the US wants to make them. And the people of Cuba are way better of the last 49 years (and could be even better of without the sadistic embargo) than with a so-called democratic American puppet-government.

In socialist/communist countries Castro is portrayed as a living saint. It all boils down to which side's propaganda you'd rather believe in, in the end.



Quote:
Flame me all you want if you're an anti-Communist, but I think Castro is a great man. He came and overthrew the US-backed upper-class who were oppressing the working class, then proceeded to defy and resist against US influence and military intimidation to defend his ideals for nearly half a century. This is one of the biggest problems I have with the US government, and probably the biggest factor which makes me hate them: the way they're, as before mentioned, sadistically isolating and pressuring Cuba because of its Communist government which came and kicked out all the American big businesses which were making a lot of money out of Cuba, at the expense of the working class, and because of Cuba's defiance against American influence.

:beer: :beer:

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Thrasher86
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:45 pm
Posts: 26
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:40 am 
 

Balth wrote:
Lokar wrote:
maxxpower wrote:
Think about it, let's assume your not some rich person who has life made up and stuff, and let's assume you don't live in the U.S., so if the U.S. government assures you that if you swim a couple of miles from wherever you live to the U.S., the government will give you a home, a job , and pretty much your life will be easier and better, wouldn't you escape wherever it is that you live?


Precisely: the reason why Cubans are fleeing their nation is not because Castro is a brutal, oppressive tyrant, but because of the economic situation. Statistically the largest amounts of people fled Cuba in the early 1990s, when the nation was plunged into deep economic decline by the breakup of the Soviet Union.


Plus Cuba's economic problems are made worse by the sanctions and economic isolation forced upon it by the US and EU. In fact I'd say that Cuba's situation is largely due to the prejudice and pointless opposition against it displayed by the US, and not because of Castro's "tyranny" and "oppression", as portrayed by American propaganda.

Flame me all you want if you're an anti-Communist, but I think Castro is a great man. He came and overthrew the US-backed upper-class who were oppressing the working class, then proceeded to defy and resist against US influence and military intimidation to defend his ideals for nearly half a century. This is one of the biggest problems I have with the US government, and probably the biggest factor which makes me hate them: the way they're, as before mentioned, sadistically isolating and pressuring Cuba because of its Communist government which came and kicked out all the American big businesses which were making a lot of money out of Cuba, at the expense of the working class, and because of Cuba's defiance against American influence.


Couldn't agree more! There is something great about a man who stood up for his ideals for that long even with all the assassination attempts and threats of invasion coming from U.S.
A friend of mine compared Castro to Franco to explain how he held power for so long if his people didn't like him, but this comparison does not work at all since Franco was supported by U.S. and most of the western world as far as I know. So for all of you here please tell me how he was able to sustain in power so long being as hated as he is by his own people and having one of the largest countries in the world right next to him ready to attack at any moment.
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vondskapens_makt
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Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 5:23 pm
Posts: 567
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:30 pm 
 

Avestriel wrote:
Already new Argentiniant "president".


Is it you?
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Qwerr
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:43 am
Posts: 87
Location: Italy
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:38 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
Quite intriguing news.

New US president soon
New Pakistani president soon
New Cuban president soon
Already a new French president
Already a new British PM
New Russian president soon
New Miss Germany 2009 soon

Damn, change truly comes our way

New Italian president soon as well
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mevyhetal
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:55 am
Posts: 636
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:48 pm 
 

Does anyone else suspect that Castro might be dead? His brother took over in mid-2006 and Fidel hasn't been seen in public (supposedly) since then due to surgery around that time. Why did he wait until now to announce his "retirement", especially late at night? This just doesn't add up.
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Veddartha
Apocalyptic Destroyer of Angels

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:12 pm
Posts: 922
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:19 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
Quite intriguing news.

New US president soon
New Pakistani president soon
New Cuban president soon
Already a new French president
Already a new British PM
New Russian president soon
New Miss Germany 2009 soon

Damn, change truly comes our way


You forgot to mention that Varg is going to be released on parole this april.
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Veddartha
Apocalyptic Destroyer of Angels

Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:12 pm
Posts: 922
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:22 pm 
 

mevyhetal wrote:
Does anyone else suspect that Castro might be dead? His brother took over in mid-2006 and Fidel hasn't been seen in public (supposedly) since then due to surgery around that time. Why did he wait until now to announce his "retirement", especially late at night? This just doesn't add up.


It won't be a surprised. I have heard statements on the radio from people who's expert on cuba's political issues and they said that castro hasn't appeared in public for the last 18 months so maybe this was set-up long time ago. Also, I remember that a few months after castrro got his lat surgery done I remember that the president of Brazil accidentaly mentioned in a press conference that Castro was dead.

Now Chavez is really screwed.
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Count_Venereal wrote:
Nolan_B wrote:
WASP on the Supreme Court right now!


I will vote for whoever makes this happen.

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Knjaz_Milos
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:56 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Belgium
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:34 pm 
 

Johnie_Duper wrote:
In socialist/communist countries Castro is portrayed as a living saint. It all boils down to which side's propaganda you'd rather believe in, in the end.


Not really: hearing/reading both sides arguments, and combining them with what I saw during my visits of Cuba, and my conversations with the people there (and believe me, I met people from all sorts, from the Castro lovers to the Castro haters, and luckily a lot in between), results not in what kind of propaganda I would believe in, but in what I believe in for myself.

And by the way: Belgium is not really a socialist/communist country. We are a capitalistic democracy with a government that is just a little bit friendlier to its poor's than lets say the US, for the rest it's business as usual.

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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:39 pm 
 

Castro was used as a sort of bogeyman for decades by the American government in order to jack up the prices of certain goods that Cuba has in abundance. The reason Castro lived so long despite the CIA allegedly trying to kill him all the time is because trade sanctions always have ulterior motives for anyone wanting to get rich off of inflated prices due to things being illegal. The people who were the most bummed out about Alcohol prohibition being overturned were the bootleggers because it brought back competition and destroyed their monopoly on the product.

I'm predicting that my Government, whom I don't support in this, will try to do the same thing with the rest of Castro's family in order to keep the embargo going. Ultimately Monopolist Capitalists and Communist Dictators are each others' best friends, despite what the false left vs. right paradigm says to the contrary.
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EOS
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:25 pm
Posts: 56
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:40 pm 
 

Balth wrote:
Plus Cuba's economic problems are made worse by the sanctions and economic isolation forced upon it by the US and EU. In fact I'd say that Cuba's situation is largely due to the prejudice and pointless opposition against it displayed by the US, and not because of Castro's "tyranny" and "oppression", as portrayed by American propaganda.

Flame me all you want if you're an anti-Communist, but I think Castro is a great man. He came and overthrew the US-backed upper-class who were oppressing the working class, then proceeded to defy and resist against US influence and military intimidation to defend his ideals for nearly half a century. This is one of the biggest problems I have with the US government, and probably the biggest factor which makes me hate them: the way they're, as before mentioned, sadistically isolating and pressuring Cuba because of its Communist government which came and kicked out all the American big businesses which were making a lot of money out of Cuba, at the expense of the working class, and because of Cuba's defiance against American influence.

There is obvious propaganda and opposition coming from the United States, but I don't think it's "pointless." It's quite clear that the US has some interest there both, I would suppose, in terms of resources and power. However, I'm no jingoist. I think it's great for any country to resist the American empire. I don't care much for Castro as a person or his politics though. Too many people (and this isn't directed toward you) make a big deal about Communism, but I don't think it's Communism in and of itself that the US has a problem with. It's more like an obstacle. So I think you hit the nail in the head.


Quote:
Bush, traveling in Rwanda, pledged to "help the people of Cuba realize the blessings of liberty.

:lol:

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maxxpower
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:04 pm
Posts: 399
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:49 pm 
 

Veddartha wrote:
mevyhetal wrote:
Does anyone else suspect that Castro might be dead? His brother took over in mid-2006 and Fidel hasn't been seen in public (supposedly) since then due to surgery around that time. Why did he wait until now to announce his "retirement", especially late at night? This just doesn't add up.


It won't be a surprised. I have heard statements on the radio from people who's expert on cuba's political issues and they said that castro hasn't appeared in public for the last 18 months so maybe this was set-up long time ago. Also, I remember that a few months after castrro got his lat surgery done I remember that the president of Brazil accidentaly mentioned in a press conference that Castro was dead.

Now Chavez is really screwed.


Chavez is the biggest idiot ever, he wants to be like Castro but doesn't have the brains be like him, the CIA should just assassinate Chavez

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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:12 pm 
 

maxxpower wrote:
Veddartha wrote:
mevyhetal wrote:
Does anyone else suspect that Castro might be dead? His brother took over in mid-2006 and Fidel hasn't been seen in public (supposedly) since then due to surgery around that time. Why did he wait until now to announce his "retirement", especially late at night? This just doesn't add up.


It won't be a surprised. I have heard statements on the radio from people who's expert on cuba's political issues and they said that castro hasn't appeared in public for the last 18 months so maybe this was set-up long time ago. Also, I remember that a few months after castrro got his lat surgery done I remember that the president of Brazil accidentaly mentioned in a press conference that Castro was dead.

Now Chavez is really screwed.


Chavez is the biggest idiot ever, he wants to be like Castro but doesn't have the brains be like him, the CIA should just assassinate Chavez


Chavez's biggest problem is that he doesn't know when to close his mouth and listen to what others around him say. People who handle themselves like that don't tend to hold power very long. Nonetheless, if he could become as smart as Castro, the CIA would probably use him rather than kill him.
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Avestriel
Butterfly Sister Petunia

Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:42 am
Posts: 135
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:44 pm 
 

vondskapens_makt wrote:
Avestriel wrote:
Already new Argentiniant "president".


Is it you?

If it was me, Castro would be forgotten and Argentina's new dictator would leave Stalin's russian massacre to shame.
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UnserHeiligeTod
Lagompräst

Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:45 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:10 pm 
 

hells_unicorn wrote:
Chavez's biggest problem is that he doesn't know when to close his mouth and listen to what others around him say. People who handle themselves like that don't tend to hold power very long.

I wouldn't take that for granted, in his case. Chavez' popularity with the people in Venezuela is still extremely high. Sure, his image internationally has become somewhat tarnished due to the incident with the King of Spain, and more recently, with the fiasco that was the rescue of the FARC hostages in the Colombian/Venezuelan frontier, but his strategy for staying in power is the appeal to the (mostly impoverished and ignorant) masses, something he excels tremendously at. If no international actions are taken to overthrow him, then we can look forward to another vicious, long-lived dictatorship a la Castro. His power is absolute in Venezuela, that's for sure: there, he's already forcibly silenced his adversaries and opposite parties.

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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:38 pm 
 

Didn't Chavez recently suffer a defeat when the populace refused to grant him increased presidential powers? Also, aren't many of his projects just a waste of the huge amounts of capital that he receives from the nationalized oil industry?

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Thrasher86
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:45 pm
Posts: 26
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:51 pm 
 

Osmium wrote:
Didn't Chavez recently suffer a defeat when the populace refused to grant him increased presidential powers? Also, aren't many of his projects just a waste of the huge amounts of capital that he receives from the nationalized oil industry?


Yes but the referendum barely lost I think the end result was 51-49, and a lot of Chavez supporters said before hand that they will vote against the referendum.
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Thrasher86
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue May 09, 2006 9:45 pm
Posts: 26
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:51 pm 
 

Osmium wrote:
Didn't Chavez recently suffer a defeat when the populace refused to grant him increased presidential powers? Also, aren't many of his projects just a waste of the huge amounts of capital that he receives from the nationalized oil industry?


Yes but the referendum barely lost I think the end result was 51-49, and a lot of Chavez supporters said before hand that they will vote against the referendum.
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Tronic
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:37 pm
Posts: 198
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:18 pm 
 

While it's great that he has finally stepped down, his brother is taking over. I'm really not sure what to think of it.

I heard somewhere that he was to support some democratic reforms but I doubt this.

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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:43 pm 
 

UnserHeiligeTod wrote:
hells_unicorn wrote:
Chavez's biggest problem is that he doesn't know when to close his mouth and listen to what others around him say. People who handle themselves like that don't tend to hold power very long.

I wouldn't take that for granted, in his case. Chavez' popularity with the people in Venezuela is still extremely high. Sure, his image internationally has become somewhat tarnished due to the incident with the King of Spain, and more recently, with the fiasco that was the rescue of the FARC hostages in the Colombian/Venezuelan frontier, but his strategy for staying in power is the appeal to the (mostly impoverished and ignorant) masses, something he excels tremendously at. If no international actions are taken to overthrow him, then we can look forward to another vicious, long-lived dictatorship a la Castro. His power is absolute in Venezuela, that's for sure: there, he's already forcibly silenced his adversaries and opposite parties.


Well, that will be Venezuela's problem then. I spoke with a man who emigrated from there to Florida a while back and he said that Chavez is exactly the kind of leader his country deserves because most people there think exactly the way he does. Far be it for me to stand in the way of an entire nation of people wanting to commit economic suicide, however, I get the sneaking suspicion that decades of rule in Venezuela by Chavez is exactly what my country's government wants, because they've done basically everything possible to empower him.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 6590
Location: Fortress Northallerton, North Yorkshire/ Varese, Padania
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:05 pm 
 

one of the better world leaders, for sure, thats not saying much but I'm interested to see what will happen to Cuba hopefully they'll stick with socialism.

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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:46 pm 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
one of the better world leaders, for sure, thats not saying much but I'm interested to see what will happen to Cuba hopefully they'll stick with socialism.


Personally I'm hoping that my country's government normalizes trade with Cuba so we can maybe off-set some of the difficulties our farmers are having.
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Vrede
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:07 pm
Posts: 752
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:05 pm 
 

Veddartha wrote:
OzzyApu wrote:
Quite intriguing news.

New US president soon
New Pakistani president soon
New Cuban president soon
Already a new French president
Already a new British PM
New Russian president soon
New Miss Germany 2009 soon

Damn, change truly comes our way


You forgot to mention that Varg is going to be released on parole this april.

:lol: We're doomed.
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red_blood_inside
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 6:20 pm
Posts: 493
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:22 pm 
 

I´m not Fidel's fan, I think he deserves respect for resisting the US ivasions and murder attempts. Now US will try to take over Cuba and put some democratic (!?!?!?) puppet... GOODBIE CUBA!!!
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mevyhetal
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:55 am
Posts: 636
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:57 pm 
 

The only Americans who still drink the "OMG COMMIE COUNTRY IN OUR BACKYARD" Kool-aid are the baby boomers. We aren't going to invade Cuba, Bush' comments mean little, if anything.
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hells_unicorn
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:32 pm
Posts: 2242
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

mevyhetal wrote:
The only Americans who still drink the "OMG COMMIE COUNTRY IN OUR BACKYARD" Kool-aid are the baby boomers. We aren't going to invade Cuba, Bush' comments mean little, if anything.


This is true, in fact, I barely know anyone within 20 years of my age who even has an opinion on Fidel Castro other than "Oh, that guy running Cuba".
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Resident_Hazard
Possessed by Starscream's Ghost

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:33 pm
Posts: 2678
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:47 pm 
 

Quote:
Bush, traveling in Rwanda, pledged to "help the people of Cuba realize the blessings of liberty."


Oh man, does this mean we're invading Cuba next?
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BrokenPentagram
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
Posts: 41
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:14 am 
 

Knjaz_Milos wrote:
Woolie_Wool wrote:
Raul Castro is even more brutal than his father and is likely to erase the small concessions that Fidel made to markets and business.


Typical: not knowing anything about the situation, yet only believing biased one-sided propaganda-information, and repeating it.

Try to get some info on Cuba and Castro that does not come from Fox, CNN and the likes, and you'll see that Cuba and it's leaders are totally different than what your perception of them is. They are no saints, but they definitely are not the monsters the US wants to make them. And the people of Cuba are way better of the last 49 years (and could be even better of without the sadistic embargo) than with a so-called democratic American puppet-government.

And btw, as someone stated above: Raul is the brother, not the son of Fidel, thus making your statement really trustworthy and showing your interest and knowledge of the situation! NOT! (never thought I would quote Anthrax in a political discussion) :-)


Fidel Castro and Raul Castro are no saints alright. Between 1959 and 1966 they've had more than 6000 executions. There are also many political prisoners who were locked up in underground prisons in the Province of Santiago De Cuba. I've met these people that were locked up and treated like dogs rather than human beings. I truly hate it when ignorant people such as yourself fail to see the tyranny and the misery in which Cubans outside of the tourist areas live in. In Cuba there is no freedom of speech or expression. Simply speaking out against Castro and his regime will get you thrown into the crapholes they call jails where you'll be beaten and abused. I actually know this is true because I'm Cuban. On the other hand , you are nothing more than a mere American fool judging Democracy in a Democratic country where you have your rights and you are allowed a greater quality of life. Perhaps you should live in Cuba just as the Cuban people do and then we shall see how you praise your beloved Castro brothers.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 12:06 pm 
 

BrokenPentagram wrote:
On the other hand , you are nothing more than a mere American fool judging Democracy in a Democratic country where you have your rights and you are allowed a greater quality of life. Perhaps you should live in Cuba just as the Cuban people do and then we shall see how you praise your beloved Castro brothers.



While I agree that he has no idea what he is talking about, Knjaz_Milos isn't American.
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maxxpower
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Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 7:04 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 3:52 pm 
 

BrokenPentagram wrote:
Knjaz_Milos wrote:
Woolie_Wool wrote:
Raul Castro is even more brutal than his father and is likely to erase the small concessions that Fidel made to markets and business.


Typical: not knowing anything about the situation, yet only believing biased one-sided propaganda-information, and repeating it.

Try to get some info on Cuba and Castro that does not come from Fox, CNN and the likes, and you'll see that Cuba and it's leaders are totally different than what your perception of them is. They are no saints, but they definitely are not the monsters the US wants to make them. And the people of Cuba are way better of the last 49 years (and could be even better of without the sadistic embargo) than with a so-called democratic American puppet-government.

And btw, as someone stated above: Raul is the brother, not the son of Fidel, thus making your statement really trustworthy and showing your interest and knowledge of the situation! NOT! (never thought I would quote Anthrax in a political discussion) :-)


Fidel Castro and Raul Castro are no saints alright. Between 1959 and 1966 they've had more than 6000 executions. There are also many political prisoners who were locked up in underground prisons in the Province of Santiago De Cuba. I've met these people that were locked up and treated like dogs rather than human beings. I truly hate it when ignorant people such as yourself fail to see the tyranny and the misery in which Cubans outside of the tourist areas live in. In Cuba there is no freedom of speech or expression. Simply speaking out against Castro and his regime will get you thrown into the crapholes they call jails where you'll be beaten and abused. I actually know this is true because I'm Cuban. On the other hand , you are nothing more than a mere American fool judging Democracy in a Democratic country where you have your rights and you are allowed a greater quality of life. Perhaps you should live in Cuba just as the Cuban people do and then we shall see how you praise your beloved Castro brothers.


Hmm, I've heard this same exact statement a million times before, let me guess, you've watched "The Lost City" am I correct?

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BrokenPentagram
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:36 pm 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
BrokenPentagram wrote:
On the other hand , you are nothing more than a mere American fool judging Democracy in a Democratic country where you have your rights and you are allowed a greater quality of life. Perhaps you should live in Cuba just as the Cuban people do and then we shall see how you praise your beloved Castro brothers.



While I agree that he has no idea what he is talking about, Knjaz_Milos isn't American.


Yeah I fucked up badly there.

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BrokenPentagram
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Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 5:38 pm 
 

maxxpower wrote:
BrokenPentagram wrote:
Knjaz_Milos wrote:
Woolie_Wool wrote:
Raul Castro is even more brutal than his father and is likely to erase the small concessions that Fidel made to markets and business.


Typical: not knowing anything about the situation, yet only believing biased one-sided propaganda-information, and repeating it.

Try to get some info on Cuba and Castro that does not come from Fox, CNN and the likes, and you'll see that Cuba and it's leaders are totally different than what your perception of them is. They are no saints, but they definitely are not the monsters the US wants to make them. And the people of Cuba are way better of the last 49 years (and could be even better of without the sadistic embargo) than with a so-called democratic American puppet-government.

And btw, as someone stated above: Raul is the brother, not the son of Fidel, thus making your statement really trustworthy and showing your interest and knowledge of the situation! NOT! (never thought I would quote Anthrax in a political discussion) :-)


Fidel Castro and Raul Castro are no saints alright. Between 1959 and 1966 they've had more than 6000 executions. There are also many political prisoners who were locked up in underground prisons in the Province of Santiago De Cuba. I've met these people that were locked up and treated like dogs rather than human beings. I truly hate it when ignorant people such as yourself fail to see the tyranny and the misery in which Cubans outside of the tourist areas live in. In Cuba there is no freedom of speech or expression. Simply speaking out against Castro and his regime will get you thrown into the crapholes they call jails where you'll be beaten and abused. I actually know this is true because I'm Cuban. On the other hand , you are nothing more than a mere American fool judging Democracy in a Democratic country where you have your rights and you are allowed a greater quality of life. Perhaps you should live in Cuba just as the Cuban people do and then we shall see how you praise your beloved Castro brothers.


Hmm, I've heard this same exact statement a million times before, let me guess, you've watched "The Lost City" am I correct?

No I've not watched "The Lost City" but I am Cuban and have spoken to people who have lived through the misery brought on by the Castros. I myself was born in Cuba but I left at the age of 8, and I can tell you Cuba is not as the regime advertises it to the tourists who only the see "nice parts" of the country while the people struggle simply to get food for their families.

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Driotheri
Butthurt

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:06 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2008 9:49 pm 
 

Then blame the people who fled rather than share their wealth and prosperity. Cuba's poverty can really only be blamed on the people who fled when they quickly realized they wouldn't be able to exploit the masses and had no intention of sharing.

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Balth
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Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:24 am
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:51 am 
 

Driotheri wrote:
Then blame the people who fled rather than share their wealth and prosperity. Cuba's poverty can really only be blamed on the people who fled when they quickly realized they wouldn't be able to exploit the masses and had no intention of sharing.


Yep. I've always viewed the Cuban exiles in Florida as the high-class types that fled because of the communist system and wanted nothing to do with the working class, and the spreading around of their wealth, which is associated with communism. They disgust me.

You can't say that Castro completely ruined the country with his ideals; look at Cuba now. World-class healthcare, a life expectancy only very slightly lower than the US and the highest in Latin America, among the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, free education, highest literacy rate in Latin America. Quite a feat, especially when lacking the support of the US and EU. Sure, there are the obvious negatives of Cuba and it certainly isn't a paradise, but I must say it is doing remarkably well if it really is such a tyrannical dictatorship, like these Cubans exiles claim.
Yes, there were executions. But consider this: most countries in the world, even those now considered the most democratic and politically-correct, went through stages of eliminating and imprisoning opponents to the government some time or another during a developing and crucial stage of their history. This is to stabilize the population and reduce the risk of people undermining the direction and aim of the government, because there always will be people opposed to the government who wish to undermine it, no matter what the country and what the system. Communist countries tend to go a bit overboard with this, which really isn’t surprising considering the extremity of a communist system, the fact that many people are affected, and the unpopularity of communism in recent decades, meaning people don’t give communism a chance anymore.
Of course I don’t support genocide or mass executions or anything of the sort (though I do believe in certain cases eliminating opponents who endanger the cause is necessary), however I am just stating that Castro doesn’t go around murdering 6000 Cubans for his entertainment. While he did indeed go overboard like most communist leaders have, I can understand his reasoning and intentions for doing it, though they were definitely overly extreme. And for the last time before people attack me on this, I do not support the mass killings and in no way believe that they were justified.
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maxxpower
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:18 pm 
 

Balth wrote:
Driotheri wrote:
Then blame the people who fled rather than share their wealth and prosperity. Cuba's poverty can really only be blamed on the people who fled when they quickly realized they wouldn't be able to exploit the masses and had no intention of sharing.


Yep. I've always viewed the Cuban exiles in Florida as the high-class types that fled because of the communist system and wanted nothing to do with the working class, and the spreading around of their wealth, which is associated with communism. They disgust me.

You can't say that Castro completely ruined the country with his ideals; look at Cuba now. World-class healthcare, a life expectancy only very slightly lower than the US and the highest in Latin America, among the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, free education, highest literacy rate in Latin America. Quite a feat, especially when lacking the support of the US and EU. Sure, there are the obvious negatives of Cuba and it certainly isn't a paradise, but I must say it is doing remarkably well if it really is such a tyrannical dictatorship, like these Cubans exiles claim.
Yes, there were executions. But consider this: most countries in the world, even those now considered the most democratic and politically-correct, went through stages of eliminating and imprisoning opponents to the government some time or another during a developing and crucial stage of their history. This is to stabilize the population and reduce the risk of people undermining the direction and aim of the government, because there always will be people opposed to the government who wish to undermine it, no matter what the country and what the system. Communist countries tend to go a bit overboard with this, which really isn’t surprising considering the extremity of a communist system, the fact that many people are affected, and the unpopularity of communism in recent decades, meaning people don’t give communism a chance anymore.
Of course I don’t support genocide or mass executions or anything of the sort (though I do believe in certain cases eliminating opponents who endanger the cause is necessary), however I am just stating that Castro doesn’t go around murdering 6000 Cubans for his entertainment. While he did indeed go overboard like most communist leaders have, I can understand his reasoning and intentions for doing it, though they were definitely overly extreme. And for the last time before people attack me on this, I do not support the mass killings and in no way believe that they were justified.


While I agree with most of what you said, it wasn't exactly Castro who killed all those people, it was mostly Che Guevara who was in charge of that, now I'm not saying that Che is a brutal bastard, he was in fact a great revolutionary who had strong beliefs and stood by them.

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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:51 pm 
 

maxxpower wrote:
While I agree with most of what you said, it wasn't exactly Castro who killed all those people, it was mostly Che Guevara who was in charge of that, now I'm not saying that Che is a brutal bastard, he was in fact a great revolutionary who had strong beliefs and stood by them.


...Now I'm not saying that Stalin/Mao is a brutal bastard; he was in fact a great communist who had strong beliefs and stood by them.

Being a brutal bastard and being an ideologue/revolutionary (with strong beliefs) are not mutually exclusive; in fact, the latter often leads to the former.

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BrokenPentagram
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:19 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:17 pm 
 

Balth wrote:
Driotheri wrote:
Then blame the people who fled rather than share their wealth and prosperity. Cuba's poverty can really only be blamed on the people who fled when they quickly realized they wouldn't be able to exploit the masses and had no intention of sharing.


Yep. I've always viewed the Cuban exiles in Florida as the high-class types that fled because of the communist system and wanted nothing to do with the working class, and the spreading around of their wealth, which is associated with communism. They disgust me.

You can't say that Castro completely ruined the country with his ideals; look at Cuba now. World-class healthcare, a life expectancy only very slightly lower than the US and the highest in Latin America, among the lowest infant mortality rates in the world, free education, highest literacy rate in Latin America. Quite a feat, especially when lacking the support of the US and EU. Sure, there are the obvious negatives of Cuba and it certainly isn't a paradise, but I must say it is doing remarkably well if it really is such a tyrannical dictatorship, like these Cubans exiles claim.
Yes, there were executions. But consider this: most countries in the world, even those now considered the most democratic and politically-correct, went through stages of eliminating and imprisoning opponents to the government some time or another during a developing and crucial stage of their history. This is to stabilize the population and reduce the risk of people undermining the direction and aim of the government, because there always will be people opposed to the government who wish to undermine it, no matter what the country and what the system. Communist countries tend to go a bit overboard with this, which really isn’t surprising considering the extremity of a communist system, the fact that many people are affected, and the unpopularity of communism in recent decades, meaning people don’t give communism a chance anymore.
Of course I don’t support genocide or mass executions or anything of the sort (though I do believe in certain cases eliminating opponents who endanger the cause is necessary), however I am just stating that Castro doesn’t go around murdering 6000 Cubans for his entertainment. While he did indeed go overboard like most communist leaders have, I can understand his reasoning and intentions for doing it, though they were definitely overly extreme. And for the last time before people attack me on this, I do not support the mass killings and in no way believe that they were justified.

What right did Fidel Castro have to take what did not belong to him? Cuba was doing very good before Castro stepped in although it had some minor problems like every economy does every now and then. The "wealthy" people have a right to be wealthy and it's not like they got wealthy off of killing people. To give you a good example, my great uncle had a store in Cuba which was taken from him by the government once Fidel and his asshole squad took over. He was unable to feed his VERY large family effectively because they all worked the store and once the store was taken from him it was re-opened only to sell what my great uncle sold for a higher price which goes to show you the kind of asshole Fidel Castro really is. Don't give me bullshit now saying that if you had a business that you would give it away because some asshole told you to. Cuba does not have world-class health care. Yeah, health care is free, but there are no medicines or materials. The life expectancy is only so high because Cuba has 11 million people when compared to the US' 300 million. The education in Cuba is a bunch of crap and I tell you this from experience. The true history of the country has been distorted under Castro's regime to an extravagance of brainwashing crap. Since everyone around here seems to claim that Cuba is not a dictatorship then why don't you go to Cuba and speak out against the government. Cuba would have been better off without Castro. Don't be so quick to call the exile community in Miami "wealthy cowards". Fidel Castro had no right to take anything from them. I can understand a classless society and all that but where in the communist manifesto does it say that a communist leader has a right to kill thousands of people while the country lives in misery and they get richer. What right did Fidel Castro have to take anything that did not belong to him? Cuba would have been much better off with another American "puppet" as their president. At least with that Cuba would have a much higher quality of life and so many people would not have lost their lives for "equality".

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Driotheri
Butthurt

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:06 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 7:33 pm 
 

Now imagine that your Uncle still had his shop, but everyone around you lived in even worse situations than now, only without the doctors or free education.

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