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josephus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:04 am
Posts: 1288
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:24 am 
 

PriestofSadWings wrote:
I'm not a huge advocate of gun control myself, but I think that the "if everyone had a gun, there would be no school shootings" logic is very flawed. If even half of the people in that room at NIU brought guns to class, there would have been many, many more school shootings. Regular people can get very angry, and if they have a gun in their pocket, they'll use it.
I don't think 'everyone' should have a gun with them, but I don't think that those with a 'Concealed Carry' Permit are to be afraid of. They go through screening first for one thing. Also, it is worth mentioning that civilians have (at time of research) a better track record than the police...
Quote:
And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high." - SOURCE: George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93
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Osmium
The Hateful Raven

Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18 am
Posts: 2521
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:42 pm 
 

Two pipe bombs were just found in a dormitory on the campus at my school.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/stat ... ation.html

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Sir_General_Flashman
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:23 am
Posts: 363
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:57 pm 
 

josephus wrote:
PriestofSadWings wrote:
I'm not a huge advocate of gun control myself, but I think that the "if everyone had a gun, there would be no school shootings" logic is very flawed. If even half of the people in that room at NIU brought guns to class, there would have been many, many more school shootings. Regular people can get very angry, and if they have a gun in their pocket, they'll use it.
I don't think 'everyone' should have a gun with them, but I don't think that those with a 'Concealed Carry' Permit are to be afraid of. They go through screening first for one thing. Also, it is worth mentioning that civilians have (at time of research) a better track record than the police...
Quote:
And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high." - SOURCE: George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93


Police are told to shoot to kill if they feel they are in danger, but it's a valid point that police need more screening. For example in November 2007 a police officer shot in the back 5 times and killed an unarmed high school student in the woods.
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Alsandair
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:00 pm
Posts: 569
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 5:21 pm 
 

The victim of a shooting Wednesday morning at UNC Chapel Hill (my school) was just identified as our student body president. Apparently it could be related to another recent shooting at Auburn University, who knows though.

Here

Sigh. I can't believe it.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 2761
Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:26 pm 
 

PriestofSadWings wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
It's a double edged sword, and just saying liberal statistics are pick and choose is just wrong. Every political movement does it.


Yes, but the anti self-defense crowd has one of the most effective disinformation campaigns around. It's way larger than the information compaign of pro-second amendment rights groups. Which is a shame.

Please. The Second Amendment was written at a time when the musket was the most commonly used type of gun. It took 15 seconds to load and shoot once. It was awfully inaccurate. Even if you had a more accurate rifle, it took twice as long to load. Muskets, besides the bayonet on the end, seem really unsuitable for self-defense.

Things have changed since then. The Constitution is written on paper, not in stone.

I'm not a huge advocate of gun control myself, but I think that the "if everyone had a gun, there would be no school shootings" logic is very flawed. If even half of the people in that room at NIU brought guns to class, there would have been many, many more school shootings. Regular people can get very angry, and if they have a gun in their pocket, they'll use it.



Who said everyone should be allowed to carry guns on school grounds? I don't think anybody here or anywhere else is suggesting that. As joseph said, you need to go through a special screening process first in order to get a concealed carry liscense, and in some states you need to get one just to have a gun in the first place---two screening processes (which is reasonable, I think).

Let me give you a scenario here. One of my flatmates was in the Marine Corps, in Iraq for two tours of duty. He knows more about guns than 99% of the policemen in the country, beyond a doubt. This is true for most current and former servicemen, provided their service was recent (ie, they were using modern weapons).

If he was in a classroom and an armed shooter came in, he would know what to do better than any armed guards that a university might think to hire, and being there would be able to act faster than the incoming police.
As of right now, I don't think there's more than two or three states in the U.S. which would permit him to carry a gun with him to class, even with three/four years of military experience plus his concealed carry permit.


That is absolute lunacy in every sense of the word. There isn't a person in the world who would be better qualified to handle the situation at that point, and he's stuck with a knife (and if the university found out he was carrying that afterwards, they might even have the gall to suspend him, and it would be legal). At the very least, people with his experience should be allowed to carry in a classroom.

Most people are fully capable of carrying a weapon safely; they just haven't had any safety classes or experience with guns. It's not like the ability to carry a gun and use it legally is confined to some select group of higher individuals; most people are not going to flip out. The notion that there would be mass increase in shootings and shooting deaths if thousands of students* were suddenly carrying is absurd; do you think that thousands** of students wouldn't realize that if they shot at someone in anger they'd get shot back at? If anything, they'd probably be more careful about what they say and do.


The most inane part of that argument comes from the numbers peopel throw around. "Thousands?" When was the last time any gun control advocates actually stepped on a college campus? Most college students are as rabidly liberal on issues as gun control advocates, and could not even imagine themselves or anybody they knew owning a gun, much less carrying one. Maybe ten out of every five hundred students would actually get a liscense. A university with 30,000 students would have roughly 600 students with a liscense, then. I doubt they'd carry a gun to class everyday; they aren't exactly lightweight.


There would also be less rapes and less female assaults, probably, especially if women were properly informed of their right to carry. It'd be a hell of a lot more affective then pepperspray, too (ladies, contrary to what the self-defense instructor at the free classes provided by the Rape Awareness and Prevention Group told you, pepperspray is actually one of the most useless ways to defend yourself....get a taser at the least).
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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 2761
Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:29 pm 
 

Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
josephus wrote:
PriestofSadWings wrote:
I'm not a huge advocate of gun control myself, but I think that the "if everyone had a gun, there would be no school shootings" logic is very flawed. If even half of the people in that room at NIU brought guns to class, there would have been many, many more school shootings. Regular people can get very angry, and if they have a gun in their pocket, they'll use it.
I don't think 'everyone' should have a gun with them, but I don't think that those with a 'Concealed Carry' Permit are to be afraid of. They go through screening first for one thing. Also, it is worth mentioning that civilians have (at time of research) a better track record than the police...
Quote:
And readers of Newsweek learned that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high." - SOURCE: George F. Will, "Are We 'a Nation of Cowards'?," Newsweek (15 November 1993):93


Police are told to shoot to kill if they feel they are in danger, but it's a valid point that police need more screening. For example in November 2007 a police officer shot in the back 5 times and killed an unarmed high school student in the woods.



That sort of thing is always in the papers, and it really underscores just how lenient the police are in their gun training. The kid was probably running away, right? Fucking stupid, you don't shoot someone running away from you, and you certainly don't use that much ammo.
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Svartalf
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:22 am
Posts: 117
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:18 am 
 

There was actually just yet another school shooting today, at a Yeshiva in suburban Jerusalem. Probably not too closely related to what we've been talking about, but another instance of students in the wrong place at the wrong time.

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Avaddons_blood
Veteran

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:23 am
Posts: 2677
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:19 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Most college students are as rabidly liberal on issues as gun control advocates, and could not even imagine themselves or anybody they knew owning a gun, much less carrying one.


Not in Texas. Everyone has a gun here. My father has a gun, all my brothers and neighbors all have guns.. Hell, I can look around my room right now and point to 3 different guns lying around.

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josephus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:04 am
Posts: 1288
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:32 am 
 

Avaddons_blood wrote:
Hell, I can look around my room right now and point to 3 different guns lying around.
I hope that they are safely in a bedside drawer (pistol), behind a door (shotgun), or what have you. :P
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RegularK
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:24 pm
Posts: 740
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:39 am 
 

My school had a shooting threat written in the bathroom... The kid got caught two days after.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 2761
Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 3:02 pm 
 

Avaddons_blood wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Most college students are as rabidly liberal on issues as gun control advocates, and could not even imagine themselves or anybody they knew owning a gun, much less carrying one.


Not in Texas. Everyone has a gun here. My father has a gun, all my brothers and neighbors all have guns.. Hell, I can look around my room right now and point to 3 different guns lying around.


Texas is an anomaly.
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Burzukur
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 11:13 am
Posts: 110
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:29 pm 
 

I heard that Fred Phelps and the WBC are coming to protest about the NIU shooting. Not the shooting itself, just more of their hate rhetoric about how fags caused it. I might throw a brick at those fuckers.
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DBettino
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 2151
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:44 pm 
 

Seriously, how could a bunch of fags have caused this? What, god said there were too many gays at NIU? I'm sure there are more queers at Northwestern or Loyola, in the middle of the city, than there are in rural northern Illinois.

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mpawluk
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:00 pm
Posts: 59
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:58 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Avaddons_blood wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Most college students are as rabidly liberal on issues as gun control advocates, and could not even imagine themselves or anybody they knew owning a gun, much less carrying one.


Not in Texas. Everyone has a gun here. My father has a gun, all my brothers and neighbors all have guns.. Hell, I can look around my room right now and point to 3 different guns lying around.


Texas is an anomaly.

He's right, actually. I don't know of any other state where guns are so incredibly easy to access/widespread. Most people I know how hunting rifles, for sure, and a lot have handguns. What's even more crazy is that I live in the most anti-gun city in Texas (Austin).
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blackmage
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:12 pm
Posts: 15
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:01 pm 
 

DBettino wrote:
Seriously, how could a bunch of fags have caused this? What, god said there were too many gays at NIU? I'm sure there are more queers at Northwestern or Loyola, in the middle of the city, than there are in rural northern Illinois.

Because god hates gay people and America supports gay people ,so he takes out his holy wrath by causing other people to kill people who AREN'T gay. Makes perfect sense.
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Sir_General_Flashman
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:23 am
Posts: 363
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:14 am 
 

blackmage wrote:
DBettino wrote:
Seriously, how could a bunch of fags have caused this? What, god said there were too many gays at NIU? I'm sure there are more queers at Northwestern or Loyola, in the middle of the city, than there are in rural northern Illinois.

Because god hates gay people and America supports gay people ,so he takes out his holy wrath by causing other people to kill people who AREN'T gay. Makes perfect sense.


Yeah, in stupid land.
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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:05 pm 
 

mpawluk wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Avaddons_blood wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Most college students are as rabidly liberal on issues as gun control advocates, and could not even imagine themselves or anybody they knew owning a gun, much less carrying one.


Not in Texas. Everyone has a gun here. My father has a gun, all my brothers and neighbors all have guns.. Hell, I can look around my room right now and point to 3 different guns lying around.


Texas is an anomaly.

He's right, actually. I don't know of any other state where guns are so incredibly easy to access/widespread. Most people I know how hunting rifles, for sure, and a lot have handguns. What's even more crazy is that I live in the most anti-gun city in Texas (Austin).


I would say it is like that in many parts of the south. I have lived in South Carolina my entire life and I could not even imagine a gun free area. My teachers had guns, friends have them, neighbors do. Hell There is a Semi Rifle by my bed and a 38 on top of my book shelf.

It is just the way of life around here.
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Chaos_Llama
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:04 pm
Posts: 430
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:59 am 
 

I'm going to feel so unsafe at college..

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Blanketed_by_snow
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:20 am
Posts: 31
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 1:16 am 
 

Chaos_Llama wrote:
I'm going to feel so unsafe at college..

im gonna party in college
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MasterM900
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:17 am
Posts: 13
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:51 pm 
 

I'm against all weapon banning laws, except at schools or places like that. My dad in Oklahoma has atleast 4 handguns, 2 rifles, a bow, 3 mini-crossbows, atleast 100 knives, not to mention thousands of tools and household things that can be used if needed, last time I was there. I used to have 2 daggers, a sword, and about 15 knives in my bedroom, carrying a knife almost everywhere I went other than school, and i'm 14 in a town of 5000, makes me feel even more safe.

Guns (and weapons in general) should be kept for protection.

Back on the subject of school shootings, some 50 year old guy came to my school like a week after V-Tech, and threatened to kill one more than V-Tech unless he got his diploma, so the cops came and we had a lockdown for like 3 hours. My "friend" had knives at school that day to kill me, but I told on him and we both got suspended :nono:

It's sad how people have to kill other people, most metal is about that but I doubt any of us would actually do it. It's even sadder how the media blames shock rock and heavy metal for it..
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Andar
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:01 pm
Posts: 57
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:49 pm 
 

PriestofSadWings wrote:
Earthcubed wrote:
Sir_General_Flashman wrote:
It's a double edged sword, and just saying liberal statistics are pick and choose is just wrong. Every political movement does it.


Yes, but the anti self-defense crowd has one of the most effective disinformation campaigns around. It's way larger than the information compaign of pro-second amendment rights groups. Which is a shame.

Please. The Second Amendment was written at a time when the musket was the most commonly used type of gun. It took 15 seconds to load and shoot once. It was awfully inaccurate. Even if you had a more accurate rifle, it took twice as long to load. Muskets, besides the bayonet on the end, seem really unsuitable for self-defense.

Things have changed since then. The Constitution is written on paper, not in stone.

I'm not a huge advocate of gun control myself, but I think that the "if everyone had a gun, there would be no school shootings" logic is very flawed. If even half of the people in that room at NIU brought guns to class, there would have been many, many more school shootings. Regular people can get very angry, and if they have a gun in their pocket, they'll use it.


On the goddamn nose. I would like to posit this idea, institute the notion that guns are a privilege, not an inherent right. You're not making them illegal, just apply similar strictures (or even more) as you would to acquiring a driver's license (although I think individuals should be given driving tests every five years, but thats a whole other kettle of fish). Make every person wanting to acquire a weapon take appropriate classes and courses on how to properly service, strip, clean, reassemble, and handle a firearm. Just like driver's ed and training before you would get your driver's license. Hell, even have them go under psychological evaluation.

I am not against owning firearms. Not in the very least. But what I am against is this continued notion of carelessness and not handling your (general) shit in a complete and responsible manner. Gun lobbyists and gun control lobbyists both seem to skirt this. Chalking it up to "Uh that comes to the individual" ultimately shies away from the basic fact that something like a gun, while it is a tool, is a very dangerous tool and should require proper public education.

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DBettino
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2003 10:43 pm
Posts: 2151
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:59 pm 
 

I'm not against guns. Shit, I'm not against anything that kills people. What I don't understand is the law that most states have about concealed firearms, that they are preferable to rifles and such. I don't see why they can't let everyone carry big, visible firearms. I wouldn't feel the slightest bit threatened by a gun I can see, and who's gonna fuck with a guy who carries a rifle?

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swineeyedlamb
Boiling in the Hourglass

Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 6:49 pm
Posts: 650
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:33 pm 
 

no post


Last edited by swineeyedlamb on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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josephus
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:04 am
Posts: 1288
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:54 am 
 

PriestofSadWings wrote:
Please. The Second Amendment was written at a time when the musket was the most commonly used type of gun. It took 15 seconds to load and shoot once. It was awfully inaccurate. Even if you had a more accurate rifle, it took twice as long to load. Muskets, besides the bayonet on the end, seem really unsuitable for self-defense.
Image

From another Forum:
Pro-Gun person wrote:
Anti-Gun person wrote:
Agreed. Every citizen should have the right to bear a muzzle loading long rifle, or single shot sidearm, sword or long knife. These are the weapons to which the framers were referring.
Well, then, sir, I'm going to have to insist that you be silent here, upon the electric web! You may speaketh over there on ye olde soape boxe, or printeth thy tracte with many turns of the hande cranked presse, and passeth out thine bills upon the streetes.

You know, it's actually not hard to work out what the framers/writers of the Second Amendment intended when they created it. Especially so if you have ever actually seen the earlier drafts that they tried to pass.
James Madison's first draft of the 2nd Amendment read:
James Madison wrote:
"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render service in person."

While a congressional committee later made this re-draft:
Congressional Committee wrote:
"A well regulated militia, composed of the body of people, being the best security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but no person religiously scrupulous shall be compelled to bear arms."

Two quotes above taken from http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester1 ... dguns.html

From http://www.davekopel.com/2A/Mags/Thomas ... orever.htm
Quote:
Even so, Americans were not as well-armed as Jefferson wished. The only book Jefferson ever wrote was Notes on the State of Virginia (1782), in which he explained the arms shortage that had developed during the Revolutionary War:

"The law requires every militia-man to provide himself with arms usual in the regular service. But this injunction was always indifferently complied with, and the arms they had have been so frequently called to arm the regulars, that in the lower parts of the country they are entirely disarmed."

So as President, Jefferson successfully urged Congress to appropriate federal funds to provide firearms to state militiamen who did not own their own guns. Congress complied, and during Jefferson’s second term and Madison’s first, "public arms" were supplied at federal expense to state militias all over the nation.

The militia was intended to prevent the conquest of America by a foreign power, but it was also intended to prevent the conquest of America by a central national government and its standing army. At his first inaugural, Jefferson explained that "a well-disciplined militia" is "our best reliance in peace and for the first moments of war, till regulars may relieve them" and also a guarantee of "the supremacy of the civil over the military authority; [and] economy in the public expense."


Ok, now I will admit that I am 'going off one' here, at least a bit. However, it think it is clear that the Second Amendment was intended to keep citizens (the people, as militia does NOT = standing army) armed with weapons that allow them to fight an invading force. or from their own government.
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