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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:51 pm 
 

I am sure that all of you are aware of the concept of dualism. So, what's your views on dualism? Are you a dualist or a non-dualist? Personally, I am a non-dualist. I cannot accept that perfect good or perfect evil exists. To me it seems like a fairytale.
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HeidraCatharsis
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:00 pm 
 

If you're referring to the philosophical term, no, I'm not. I reject all that Platonic bullshit about there being our world and the world of ''ideas'', and everything that promotes a spiritual world/force beyond ours. Also, thinking that the human mind is something separate from our physical world is retarded.

EDIT: Hey, I'm sigged by 3 different people right now. Beat that, wonderhearts :thumbsup:
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:05 pm 
 

Yeah, I refer to the philosophical term. However, the term is not restrained in theory. It is appliable to our everyday life (especially in the religious and political aspect of it).
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Scorpio
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:04 pm 
 

There are different uses of 'dualism' in philosophy. One of them is Platonic realism, according to which the dual poles are the forms and the world of matter. More often, 'dualism' now refers to mind/body dualism, which distinguishes between mind or soul and body. This is substance dualism, but there is also a property dualism. The best known is Cartesian substance dualism, but most dualists today are property dualists. I imagine there are other meanings of 'dualism,' too, but these are the most common.
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Svartalf
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:07 pm 
 

Scorpio wrote:
There are different uses of 'dualism' in philosophy. One of them is Platonic realism, according to which the dual poles are the forms and the world of matter. More often, 'dualism' now refers to mind/body dualism, which distinguishes between mind or soul and body. This is substance dualism, but there is also a property dualism. The best known is Cartesian substance dualism, but most dualists today are property dualists. I imagine there are other meanings of 'dualism,' too, but these are the most common.


Don't forget Zoroastrian dualism: light/dark, good/evil, AhuraMazda/Ahriman--predates Platonism by several centuries at least.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:20 pm 
 

Svartalf wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
There are different uses of 'dualism' in philosophy. One of them is Platonic realism, according to which the dual poles are the forms and the world of matter. More often, 'dualism' now refers to mind/body dualism, which distinguishes between mind or soul and body. This is substance dualism, but there is also a property dualism. The best known is Cartesian substance dualism, but most dualists today are property dualists. I imagine there are other meanings of 'dualism,' too, but these are the most common.


Don't forget Zoroastrian dualism: light/dark, good/evil, AhuraMazda/Ahriman--predates Platonism by several centuries at least.


Thank you. It is true. Plato was influenced by Zoroastrian dualism and that's exactly the kind of dualism I'm talking about.
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Osmium
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:43 pm 
 

Svartalf wrote:
Don't forget Zoroastrian dualism: light/dark, good/evil, AhuraMazda/Ahriman--predates Platonism by several centuries at least.


That seems to be a proto-philosophical, religious type of dualism as opposed to the philosophical kind.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:49 pm 
 

Osmium wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
Don't forget Zoroastrian dualism: light/dark, good/evil, AhuraMazda/Ahriman--predates Platonism by several centuries at least.


That seems to be a proto-philosophical, religious type of dualism as opposed to the philosophical kind.


Like Plato was a philosopher :roll:
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Cancer_General
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:50 pm 
 

I would say no in all aspects of dualism.

Hardcore nominalism to the bone!!! :hail:
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Nahsil
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:14 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Osmium wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
Don't forget Zoroastrian dualism: light/dark, good/evil, AhuraMazda/Ahriman--predates Platonism by several centuries at least.


That seems to be a proto-philosophical, religious type of dualism as opposed to the philosophical kind.


Like Plato was a philosopher :roll:


:roll:
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:41 pm 
 

Nahsil wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Osmium wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
Don't forget Zoroastrian dualism: light/dark, good/evil, AhuraMazda/Ahriman--predates Platonism by several centuries at least.


That seems to be a proto-philosophical, religious type of dualism as opposed to the philosophical kind.


Like Plato was a philosopher :roll:


:roll:


No, he wasn't. He was a religious freak.
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DeathForBlitzkrieg
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:43 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Like Plato was a philosopher :roll:


Haha, when will you stop failing? :lol:
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Manwaring
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:44 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
I am sure that all of you are aware of the concept of dualism. So, what's your views on dualism? Are you a dualist or a non-dualist? Personally, I am a non-dualist. I cannot accept that perfect good or perfect evil exists. To me it seems like a fairytale.


Hi, normally dualism is used to describe a mind/body dualism. A non-dualist is called a "monist". While it is okay to refer to absolute moralism as a dualism (because it is) it's also pretentious because it's much simpler to call it "moral absolutism".

Scorpio wrote:
There are different uses of 'dualism' in philosophy. One of them is Platonic realism, according to which the dual poles are the forms and the world of matter. More often, 'dualism' now refers to mind/body dualism, which distinguishes between mind or soul and body. This is substance dualism, but there is also a property dualism. The best known is Cartesian substance dualism, but most dualists today are property dualists. I imagine there are other meanings of 'dualism,' too, but these are the most common.

Ugh, I sound like a less intelligent version of Scorpio, I've been out of school too long.
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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:54 pm 
 

So far everybody is Parmenidian. ;)

P.S. - You forgot Pythagoras.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:01 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
So far everybody is Parmenidian. ;)

P.S. - You forgot Pythagoras.


Well, Parmenides and Pythagoras are ok but no one can reach the magnificent persuasive powers of sophists and the hand-down logic of Protagoras :)


DeathForBlitzkrieg, I've studied Plato and his sayings remind me a LOT of the Bible. I cannot consider him a philosopher.
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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:28 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
ucayali wrote:
So far everybody is Parmenidian. ;)

P.S. - You forgot Pythagoras.


Well, Parmenides and Pythagoras are ok but no one can reach the magnificent persuasive powers of sophists and the hand-down logic of Protagoras :)


I haven't studied Protagoras or the sophists yet, so i wouldn't know.

Don't you think that Parmenides guy was a little crazy? Everything that is, is. Everything that it is not, it is not and cannot be. So there is no non-existence. So the only thing that IS is existence. It is motionless, since there is nothing outside itself (herslef? himself?) to move itself (with)in. It is ONE. So all motion is apparent and comes from perception, which is all false.

Jeeesus, what kind of person could come up with this stuff?!

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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:31 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Like Plato was a philosopher :roll:


whoaaaaa! I can't believe a Greek just said that!!!! this cannot be! the world is coming to an end, and us with it!

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:35 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
ucayali wrote:
So far everybody is Parmenidian. ;)

P.S. - You forgot Pythagoras.


Well, Parmenides and Pythagoras are ok but no one can reach the magnificent persuasive powers of sophists and the hand-down logic of Protagoras :)


I haven't studied Protagoras or the sophists yet, so i wouldn't know.

Don't you think that Parmenides guy was a little crazy? Everything that is, is. Everything that it is not, it is not and cannot be. So there is no non-existence. So the only thing that IS is existence. It is motionless, since there is nothing outside itself (herslef? himself?) to move itself (with)in. It is ONE. So all motion is apparent and comes from perception, which is all false.

Jeeesus, what kind of person could come up with this stuff?!


I wouldn't call him crazy. To be sincere, I don't know what I'd call him. But I prefer him over Plato and Socrates. Yes, he was a dualist (doxa vs aletheia) but he was not the religious freak that Plato and Socrates (probably a construction of Plato's imagination) were.
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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:38 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
Like Plato was a philosopher :roll:


whoaaaaa! I can't believe a Greek just said that!!!! this cannot be! the world is coming to an end, and us with it!


I say that exactly because I am Greek. I've been studying Plato's work for quite a time and I cannot consider him a philosopher. His adherents (Neoplatonists) helped Christians to destroy Greek philosophy. Plato himself were religious as fuck. Have you read Plato's Republic? The myth of Yr? The Destinies (Klotho, Laxesis, Atraktos)? He was full of myths. He was also an irrogant cock that thought he was smarter than sophists.
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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:44 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
I wouldn't call him crazy. To be sincere, I don't know what I'd call him. But I prefer him over Plato and Socrates. Yes, he was a dualist (doxa vs aletheia) but he was not the religious freak that Plato and Socrates (probably a construction of Plato's imagination) were.


But he denied the valability of doxa, right? By doxa I understand opinion/sensation, VS aletheia, by which I understand reason and logic.

So he was a dualist but he denied the valability of one half. At least that's how I get it.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:48 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
I wouldn't call him crazy. To be sincere, I don't know what I'd call him. But I prefer him over Plato and Socrates. Yes, he was a dualist (doxa vs aletheia) but he was not the religious freak that Plato and Socrates (probably a construction of Plato's imagination) were.


But he denied the valability of doxa, right? By doxa I understand opinion/sensation, VS aletheia, by which I understand reason and logic.

So he was a dualist but he denied the valability of one half. At least that's how I get it.


That's what makes him at least half better than most dualists ;)
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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:49 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
I say that exactly because I am Greek. I've been studying Plato's work for quite a time and I cannot consider him a philosopher. His adherents (Neoplatonists) helped Christians to destroy Greek philosophy. Plato himself were religious as fuck. Have you read Plato's Republic? The myth of Yr? The Destinies (Klotho, Laxesis, Atraktos)? He was full of myths. He was also an irrogant cock that thought he was smarter than sophists.


I am only a beginner, but I don't think Plato "saw it coming", so to speak. So it is not right (I think) to blame him for something he didn't (and couldn't) foresee.

Besides, as far as I know (I repeat, I'm only a beginner) there's more to Plato than just myths.


Last edited by ucayali on Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:51 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
I wouldn't call him crazy. To be sincere, I don't know what I'd call him. But I prefer him over Plato and Socrates. Yes, he was a dualist (doxa vs aletheia) but he was not the religious freak that Plato and Socrates (probably a construction of Plato's imagination) were.


But he denied the valability of doxa, right? By doxa I understand opinion/sensation, VS aletheia, by which I understand reason and logic.

So he was a dualist but he denied the valability of one half. At least that's how I get it.


That's what makes him at least half better than most dualists ;)


So he was a monist in disguise? Or he was a monist, and didn't even knew it! :)

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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:59 pm 
 

(off?)topic:

I definitely prefere this topic to " Nun, 79, jailed for sex abuse".

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:05 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
I say that exactly because I am Greek. I've been studying Plato's work for quite a time and I cannot consider him a philosopher. His adherents (Neoplatonists) helped Christians to destroy Greek philosophy. Plato himself were religious as fuck. Have you read Plato's Republic? The myth of Yr? The Destinies (Klotho, Laxesis, Atraktos)? He was full of myths. He was also an irrogant cock that thought he was smarter than sophists.


I am only a beginner, but I don't think Plato "saw it coming", so to speak. So it is not right (I think) to blame him for something he didn't (and couldn't) foresee.

Besides, as far as I know (I repeat, I'm only a beginner) there's more to Plato than just myths.


He did not saw it coming. That's true. But he was the one that first that denied logic and our senses. Some say he was an idealist. I just say he was irrational.
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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:09 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:

He did not saw it coming. That's true. But he was the one that first that denied logic and our senses. Some say he was an idealist. I just say he was irrational.


so "irrationalism" is bad? and only reason and cand take us to the truth?

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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:14 pm 
 

anyway, just for the record, I hate philosophy

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:20 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:

He did not saw it coming. That's true. But he was the one that first that denied logic and our senses. Some say he was an idealist. I just say he was irrational.


so "irrationalism" is bad? and only reason and cand take us to the truth?


Irrationalist thought is applied in most theological denominations. That's why I cannot see Plato as a philosopher but as a religious freak.
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Thrasher86
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:37 pm 
 

I'd say I am a realist I don't believe in pure evil or pure good, man's actions depend on a variety of things and are never as simple oh he is good or he is evil. Serial killers are usually deemed as evil in our society, but if you analyze the situation it becomes obvious that those people simply have some type of psychological disorder so in turn we couldn't call that evil could we. Good/Evil is a fairy tale.
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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:05 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:

He did not saw it coming. That's true. But he was the one that first that denied logic and our senses. Some say he was an idealist. I just say he was irrational.


so "irrationalism" is bad? and only reason and cand take us to the truth?


Irrationalist thought is applied in most theological denominations. That's why I cannot see Plato as a philosopher but as a religious freak.


Even so, this doesn't mean he was further away from the truth than others. Life IS irrational, rationalism = trying to melt it into pre-defined acceptable and understandable forms. But it doesn't fit.

And is there a such big differece in attitude between a religious freak and an un-religious one? "Freakness" doesn't necessarily connects to religiozity.

Besides, you didn't answer my question.

God I hate this kind of things, but I just can't let go, it's like smoking.

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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:11 pm 
 

Thrasher86 wrote:
I'd say I am a realist I don't believe in pure evil or pure good, man's actions depend on a variety of things and are never as simple oh he is good or he is evil. Serial killers are usually deemed as evil in our society, but if you analyze the situation it becomes obvious that those people simply have some type of psychological disorder so in turn we couldn't call that evil could we. Good/Evil is a fairy tale.


you didn't define your terms... haw do you define "evil" and how do you define "good"?


besides, even if any thing or any fact si both good and evil, this doesn't contradict the existence of pure evil and pure good.

it's like saying:
1. water is formed of a combination of H and O and it is WATER, not just H or just O
2. then - there is no pure H and no pure O, because together they form WATER

follow the logic?

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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:13 pm 
 

This topic makes me think of Cynic.

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Star-Gazer
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:17 pm 
 

many people try to create a false dichotomy in their arguments, but the world is not black and white - its all grey and what is good for one is evil for another

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ucayali
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:26 pm 
 

einvolk wrote:
many people try to create a false dichotomy in their arguments, but the world is not black and white - its all grey and what is good for one is evil for another


grey doesn't mean the absence of black and white, but a combination of the two.

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:30 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:

He did not saw it coming. That's true. But he was the one that first that denied logic and our senses. Some say he was an idealist. I just say he was irrational.


so "irrationalism" is bad? and only reason and cand take us to the truth?


Irrationalist thought is applied in most theological denominations. That's why I cannot see Plato as a philosopher but as a religious freak.


Even so, this doesn't mean he was further away from the truth than others. Life IS irrational, rationalism = trying to melt it into pre-defined acceptable and understandable forms. But it doesn't fit.

And is there a such big differece in attitude between a religious freak and an un-religious one? "Freakness" doesn't necessarily connects to religiozity.

Besides, you didn't answer my question.

God I hate this kind of things, but I just can't let go, it's like smoking.


Personally, I find irrationalism responsible for the loss of what I believe it's our only weapon in this world. And that weapon is logic.

By the way, this is one of the few times that I agree with einvolk (even partially because I see a lot of dualistic semen in racialism).
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Pathological_Frolic
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:33 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
I see a lot of dualistic semen in racialism

:???:
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Xeogred
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:34 pm 
 

einvolk wrote:
many people try to create a false dichotomy in their arguments, but the world is not black and white - its all grey and what is good for one is evil for another

I was pretty much going to say this and vice versa to that saying.

So, no I don't really believe in this idea personally. It's interesting though.

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Scorpio
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:28 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
ucayali wrote:
Mors_Gloria wrote:
I say that exactly because I am Greek. I've been studying Plato's work for quite a time and I cannot consider him a philosopher. His adherents (Neoplatonists) helped Christians to destroy Greek philosophy. Plato himself were religious as fuck. Have you read Plato's Republic? The myth of Yr? The Destinies (Klotho, Laxesis, Atraktos)? He was full of myths. He was also an irrogant cock that thought he was smarter than sophists.


I am only a beginner, but I don't think Plato "saw it coming", so to speak. So it is not right (I think) to blame him for something he didn't (and couldn't) foresee.

Besides, as far as I know (I repeat, I'm only a beginner) there's more to Plato than just myths.


He did not saw it coming. That's true. But he was the one that first that denied logic and our senses. Some say he was an idealist. I just say he was irrational.


I am confused by recent developments in this thread. Firstly, Parmenides is lauded as better than Plato because Plato denied our senses. As if Parmenides did not? Secondly, I don't think Plato was especially interested in skeptical arguments against our senses, but rather, his concern was that our senses would trick us into believing in only that which they represent, thereby obscuring the world of forms. The world of forms was of course considered by Plato to be a higher degree of reality. However, most of the time, when he is denigrating sensation, he doesn't mean to deny that it is reliable as far as it goes; i.e., it informs us about matter. His primary point is that the senses are able only to tell us about a shadowy realm of reality, which we mistakenly interpret as the only reality.
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Scorpio
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:36 pm 
 

ucayali wrote:
So he was a monist in disguise? Or he was a monist, and didn't even knew it! :)


The standard interpretation of Parmenides has been that he was openly a monist. It is one thing to distinguish between reality and illusion, but another altogether to think that so doing establishes ontological dualism. If one has an illusory experience, it need not indicate that the 'object' of the illusory experience has being, although one might very well think that it does. Many philosophers do not, however. I learned Parmenides as a monist, but I know that there is a dispute nowadays about this. Unfortunately, I cannot attempt to adjudicate the issue because my specialty is analytic philosophy, and especially formal logic, not the Ancients. Of course, that is not to say that I couldn't look into it, but I have not done so at the time of this post.
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Scorpio
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:38 pm 
 

Mors_Gloria wrote:
Like Plato was a philosopher :roll:


What is a philosopher? In my view, it is someone who concerns himself with a particular set of questions(metaphysics, epistemology, ethics, etc), usually of an abstract nature, and attempts to justify his position with argumentation.
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