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Space_alligator
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:43 am
Posts: 714
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 3:31 am 
 

Came across an article on social media today, where Dee Snider was not going to take it in regards to Spotify's (admittedly) poor payment structure, claiming he gets nothing from them.

Jokes about lack of hits aside, valid point in that Daniel Ek is a billionaire all but in the back of the platform.

But, my reply to the situation was:

"At home, i could play a Stay Hungry vinyl bought second hand and Dee gets nothing, or, i could stream and Dee gets something"

Later on, i assessed my listening habits and how they have drifted from only using physical media, to a reliance on streaming. Few reasons for this, but in a pure physical vs streaming comparison is that sometimes i just want a playlist of various songs rather than an album...even an playlist from a single artist.

Streaming as all but replaced my iPod in this regard.

But, my point about an artist getting something really hit home. With a physical copy, these artists are getting strictly a one off payment from me. But, streaming means that everytime i listen to a song, they get paid.

Not entirely defending the royalty structure Spotify (and other services) uses, it certainly does show to a degree that these streaming services are helping support these artists.
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Miikja
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 372
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2023 7:01 am 
 

That depends on what kind of artist you're talking about. As an independent artist with a DIY-mindset, I'll argue that I'm infinitely better off staying on Bandcamp, where every sale (minus a fair percentage for digital sales) goes directly into my pocket. My music is on streaming services too and while yes, it pays something, it's still next to nothing.

As a consumer, I also prefer to own physical copies (listening to a My Dying Bride CD as we speak) because I don't want a company like Spotify to have power over my access to music. They might last a hundred years (and I hope they do, don't get me wrong here) but there's just no way to know.
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DonJonne
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2015 10:00 am
Posts: 17
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:11 am 
 

Space_alligator wrote:
But, my point about an artist getting something really hit home. With a physical copy, these artists are getting strictly a one off payment from me. But, streaming means that everytime i listen to a song, they get paid.


With the proposed changes in the payment structure of Spotify, it might as well be, that the artist gets nothing at all anymore. I just went through a couple of unknown bands which I enjoy listening to and there are some of them who with the new playment structure would have only some or even no songs which would make the payout cut.

Talking about my own band, the money made from the abysmal digital or physical sales on Bandcamp, by the way I am surprised that people actually do buy the digital versions, is orders more than any streaming will ever payout. The only benefit of having songs on streaming services, is for promotional reasons.

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DeadKid
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:51 am
Posts: 537
Location: New Zealand
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 8:24 am 
 

The bigger arguments are that radio plays never paid much either (consider they may be heard by tens of thousands of people), and the sheer amount of music being released devalues the product (basic supply and demand). I figure artists made good money from radio plays in the past, but those were the lucky ones - for every 1 successful band, there were 200 that never landed a record deal. Now those 200 can all afford to record quite cheaply and the payments are spread very thin. Also, I guess the average music fan probably has less disposable income than ever, so the issue at hand extends far beyond just the music industry.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
Posts: 35140
Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:27 am 
 

I just don't need to pay a rich asshole every month to give artists fractions of a cent for some plays of their stuff. I'll buy the albums from the bands if I can and go to shows if I can. Figure that's the best way.
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metalcrypt
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:26 am 
 

I subscribe to Spotify, but initially the reason was that I could stream to all my Amazon Echos at once, so no matter what room I'm in, the music is playing. Can't do that with my unreleased music (advance promos) and anything that's not on Spotify yet. Eventually I'm hoping to wire the place somehow and have full-blown speakers in all rooms, but that's a few years off.

With that said, these days I use it to check out stuff I don't have, like when one of my reviewers likes some promo I didn't get, or just reading reviews in magazine, mentions on message boards, you get the idea. I've actually spent quite a bit of money buying albums I heard on Spotify, sometimes even ending up at shows by bands I discovered through there (3-4 such shows last year). I still spend thousands of dollars annually buying albums, merch, going to shows, so I don't feel bad. Spotify is a convenience; it's not my music "collection" (good luck with that...)

On occasion I might not like something enough to buy it, but enough to review it. So there's always the hope that doing that might get them a few sales.

There's no way any underground artist would ever get much, if any money from services such as this (same goes for radio back when it was the big thing). The amount of money they'd have to charge subscribers would drive the membership down to zero pretty quickly. Just like radio, it's only the big mainstream guys that ever see money worth talking about. So, just see it as another promotional channel, and hope that those people who do still buy physical copies (or even digital on the likes of Bandcamp) will come across it and like it enough to buy it. Those people who only stream music just don't want to buy physical albums anymore, so the way I see it, they're not a lost sale anyway. A friend of mine once told me he had purchased enough albums in his life and was done, so he streams, but at least from time to time he'll catch a live show of a band he discovered on Spotify (or similar service).
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coupdebleus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:11 pm
Posts: 275
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:18 pm 
 

Space_alligator wrote:
"At home, i could play a Stay Hungry vinyl bought second hand and Dee gets nothing, or, i could stream and Dee gets something"


Yeah, and sweatshop workers can go home with a cent in their pocket as long as I keep buying Nike. Hyperbolic, I know, but the point is that you’re not so much helping the artists as sustaining the system that exploits them when you use Spotify.

I’m not expecting everyone to care because living with eyes in the back of the head constantly scanning everything to make sure it isn’t part of an exploitative scheme isn’t sustainable, but there’s no possible defense against the business model of Spotify if you care about supporting an artist. And afaik, the best way to do it nowadays is through shows, merch sales —even digital if it’s on a system like Bandcamp—, or direct patronage on any of the popular platforms.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 2:25 pm 
 

I get why people would use Spotify, but yeah it just doesn't make a difference really for artists, it's that little pay. It's barely anything.
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metalcrypt
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 6:20 pm 
 

I usually give "the look" to anyone who only streams. But what do I know. In some cases they may not be in a financial situation that allows them to buy much outside of life's essentials. That's more true now than in a long time.

Another use for Spotify. I mostly buy vinyl editions, and a lot of them don't come with "download codes". So, if I want to listen to the album when taking a walk or while driving, oftentimes the album is on Spotify.
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metalcrypt
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2023 6:21 pm 
 

coupdebleus wrote:
Space_alligator wrote:
"At home, i could play a Stay Hungry vinyl bought second hand and Dee gets nothing, or, i could stream and Dee gets something"


Yeah, and sweatshop workers can go home with a cent in their pocket as long as I keep buying Nike. Hyperbolic, I know, but the point is that you’re not so much helping the artists as sustaining the system that exploits them when you use Spotify.

I’m not expecting everyone to care because living with eyes in the back of the head constantly scanning everything to make sure it isn’t part of an exploitative scheme isn’t sustainable, but there’s no possible defense against the business model of Spotify if you care about supporting an artist. And afaik, the best way to do it nowadays is through shows, merch sales —even digital if it’s on a system like Bandcamp—, or direct patronage on any of the popular platforms.


Doesn't Bandcamp only take something like a 10% cut?
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aloof
avant-gardener

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:18 pm
Posts: 3174
Location: never neverland, palm trees by the sea
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:39 am 
 

Space_alligator wrote:
With a physical copy, these artists are getting strictly a one off payment from me. But, streaming means that everytime i listen to a song, they get paid.


what a s**t argument. do the math, see how many streams an artist must get to make the same amount as when selling a physical copy and you'll see exactly what the problem with spotify is...
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I Am the Law
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2003 1:46 pm
Posts: 676
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:13 pm 
 

Since Spotify appears to be good enough for your average music listener I don't think anything will change any time soon. The platform continues to grow every quarter with no signs of slowing. If you're a smaller artist there's really nothing you can do. You could pull your music in protest but then you lose any potential exposure. Spotify is the dominant music platform nowadays so the people who only use Spotify would never hear your music. However if you leave your music on Spotify people might be less inclined buy your music if they are a subscriber. "Why would I buy a CD when I pay for Spotify already?" Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

But did much really change from the old days? I guess the idea going into the streaming era was, if your music was good, maybe one day you might get noticed and could actually make some money on a platform like Spotify. In the pre-streaming world you probably never made anything. It seems to me that idea is basically dead. I could be wrong about that though. That's just my outside perspective as someone who is not a musician.

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metalcrypt
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Dec 25, 2023 1:00 pm 
 

I know a lot of people who only listened to what was on the radio back when that was still popular, never bought anything. Once it was off the air, it was no longer "in", so whatever they were raving about the previous week was old history and it was now whatever it was that was pushed on the radio. There are similarities.

If it's not Spotify, it going to be something else. The genie is out of the bottle.
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In_Zane
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:33 pm
Posts: 475
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2023 2:02 pm 
 

metalcrypt wrote:
I usually give "the look" to anyone who only streams. But what do I know. In some cases they may not be in a financial situation that allows them to buy much outside of life's essentials. That's more true now than in a long time

I buy some, here and there, but I don't have much to spend on physical CDs (which is what I want). :/
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metalcrypt
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 22, 2002 10:52 pm
Posts: 82
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2024 4:29 pm 
 

In_Zane wrote:
metalcrypt wrote:
I usually give "the look" to anyone who only streams. But what do I know. In some cases they may not be in a financial situation that allows them to buy much outside of life's essentials. That's more true now than in a long time

I buy some, here and there, but I don't have much to spend on physical CDs (which is what I want). :/


You do what you can. :) Life isn't getting any cheaper...
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tobi is an animal
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Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2018 1:29 pm
Posts: 143
PostPosted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:42 pm 
 

I'm guessing in Dee's case most of the people who listen to Twisted Sister on Spotify have already bought the albums from back before streaming. If Twisted Sister released a new album and it had millions of streams on spotify then Dee would have something to be upset about. I'm sure if people were desperate to listen to We're Not Gonna Take It they could manage to do so even if spotify didn't exist

I listen to music 6-8 hours a day at work so it's great to have access to so much music all at once with spotify. I still buy the albums from the artists I hope will continue to make new albums.

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