I re-read The Mindworm for the I-don't-know-how-manyth time today. If you guys aren't reading Kornbluth you're fucking wasting your lives away. I can't believe how talented he is. It overwhelms me.

Inspired by my recent perusing of File 770's Hugo fiasco coverage, I just read John Scalzi's Old Man's War.

Basically, it's just quick, dumb, easy fun and I can see why people like it. It's certainly not the best thing I've ever read, but I can't say I really hated any of it. And if it pisses off the puppies, it's a good book in my book.

I haven't actually read any Kornbluth yet, although of course I've heard of him (along with approximately 9 billion other sci-fi authors from 50+ years ago I haven't gotten around to reading yet). What would you say makes him special?

Just finished Before They Are Hanged. That ending was something.

And Sand dan Glokta may be one of my favorite characters regardless of series.

Anyone else have difficulty caring about the indigenous-ish story in Fifth Head of Cerberus? It's actually stopping me from reading the book, no motivation, but I'd feel bad proceeding and potentially missing an important part of the bigger narrative.

That part was sort of slow at first but it just got so damn weird and fascinating, man.

Man. I'm not even sure how to explain it. He is a master of the short story. Everything is so incredibly vivid, he never directly spells anything out for you, effortless sense of humor and timing, and he almost always has a magnificent ending.

There's one or two of his pieces on Gutenberg but I don't think you'd be disappointed if you found a reasonably priced copy of "His Share of Glory". It's uh...thorough. If you can find a copy of The Mindworm online I think it would be a very fitting introduction. The ultra cliche name is such a fake-out. A google search turned up a free online copy of The Mindworm but the website name sort of spoils the beautiful ending. I don't like it.

Here's a good one, though not as short or as intensely satisfying as Mindworm. It's a fitting introduction to his style:

http://www.gutenberg.ca/ebooks/kornblut ... -00-h.html

I just finished American Gods earlier, and honestly it was alright but I definitely don't see the reason for all the incredible amounts of acclaim it got - Hugo AND Nebula for best novel of 2001, and apparently its 10th anniversary booksigning tour in 2011 was totally sold out. I guess it was just much different from what they were used to? Except it was very typical of Neil Gaiman's strengths: lots of cultural research, clever and interesting twists on often-obscure mythology, interesting ideas, the air of gravitas - and typical of Neil Gaiman's weaknesses: meandering main plot, lack of focus/ADD hopping from idea to idea without developing any one of them sufficiently, not much actual gravitas once you've scratched the surface.

A fundamental problem with it I think was that it was presented as in a picaresque format, except instead of just two characters having self-contained adventures, it was all in service of a big overarching plot, so those adventures couldn't just each resolve its own story as it went, but because of the format, they couldn't really contribute all that much to the main plot either. Take the whole bit with Czernobog - his story didn't end up getting resolved until the very, very end, yet he didn't end up factoring into the main plot that much anyway. The whole long coda after the end of the main plot was necessary to resolve all those unfinished picaresque plot threads - Lakeside, Czernobog, Sam Black Crow, whatever. It made the structure rather clunky, when a non-picaresque format would have best been served with ending with the climax and at most ONE coda (Shadow meeting the original Odin would've been fine).

Anyway, it was decent, enjoyable enough while it was going on, but was rather shoddily constructed and didn't do much with all of its big concepts.

I remember almost nothing about American Gods. I guess I'd say it's pretty forgettable.

I have fond memories of reading American Gods at the beach during the summer. It's that kind of book really. Gaiman is wildly inconsistent - brilliant ideas and writing craft, but sometimes he's just not good and other times you're addicted to his stuff.

Reading Consumed by David Cronenberg, only about 50 pages in, but I am digging it. Wild, dark, weird and literary stuff. Great characterization and the descriptions inspire me to keep writing. Anyone familiar? Seems like you would be, on here.

Are you me?? I've been on a sci-fi short story kick lately after reading a bunch of George RR Martin, but I just couldn't get into this one. I think I'll pick it up again after I finish All the King's Men. Then it's a LOTR re-read (second time) or I'll jump into the Foundation series for the first time.

Been on a dark fantasy binge lately. Karl E. Wagner's Kane is superb, as ever. Just like Conan, Kane is the sort of fast-paced, fun & pulpy read that never loses its lustre no matter how many times I go through it again & again. I don't have to wrack my brain trying to figure out "What the fuck does this mean???" à la Wolfe (not that that's a bad thing on Wolfe's part), just sit back, relax & watch(?) Kane crushing skulls & burning the world. Sometimes that's all I need.

I remember some time ago reading Elric of Melnibone, feeling really "meh" about it, & then promptly left the entire series to gather dust in my library. And yet the book managed to cling to the back of my head for all those months, until I finally decided to give Elric another go last week. Goddamn this is some good shit; an acquired taste on my part, but better late than never

Do the rest of Moorcock's stuff read this good? Anyone?

Nice! Although I have some very old beat up paperbacks of his stuff (which cost me a lot of time if not a lot of money to obtain) I wouldn't mind a nicer, cheap version.

Anyway, reading "Snow" by Orhan Pamuk at the moment. I really liked "My name is Red" and "The white castle", but this is the first book of his with a modern setting I've read. He's a fantastic writer.

I haven't read his entire corpus, but everything I have read is similarly great. They've all got this really adventurous, vaguely psychedelic feel to them. Elric's still my favourite though. I mean, the insane hyper-decadence of Melnibone is just so perfectly imagined, and I think Stormbringer is one of the best iconic character weapons in any fantasy book ever as well. Elric's codependent descent into madness is a really powerful theme that permeates the whole thing.

Currently reading yet another fantasy book; The Blade Itself. I'm only about 150 pages in, but it's certainly very intriguing...

Good people of the literature thread!

I've been reading a little bit about this Brandon Sanderson guy, and so far, it seems like his settings, themes, and treatment of magic are pretty interesting; far from the "Fantasy World #8370" type of deal I find so tasteless and bland. However, I'd like to know if there's anyone here who can vouch for the man's actual writing? Particularly in regards to the Mistborn and Stormlight Archive series, as those appear to be nice starting points.

Moorcock's best stuff imo are his standalones, he ran (nearly) every series he started right into the ground (Elric, Corum, Jerry Cornelius, etc.). Try The Ice Schooner and The Black Corridor. Both are rather short, less than 200 pages, but they're incredibly tightly-plotted and feature fascinating settings and great characters. I wrote about both at much greater length earlier in this thread.


Coincidentally, I actually just started listening to the first Mistborn audiobook last week; I'm about a quarter through now, and I feel I can safely say that the actual writing is really really really bad. It's just incredibly flat and lifeless and dull, as if Sanderson learned to write from RPG sourcebooks - and not even from the fluff text, but from the rules and stats explanations. Everything is spelled out in the dullest way possible - it's like he was literally imagining a balanced RPG magic system when he came up with Allomancy, and then added some characters and a plot as an afterthought - and rather than being, y'know, magical, it's the least interesting, least "magical" magic I've ever read. What makes the writing especially bad is it's not even the inept but super-enthusiastic gushing that you get in a lot of bad fantasy, which can sometimes be infectious and override the immaturity of the writing - it's like Sanderson isn't even excited about his own magic system. It's like he's writing a manual to a fridge.

I mean, give it a shot if you want really brainless timewasting fantasy entertainment, but yeesh, dull, dull stuff.

I remember reading a Mistborn excerpt a few years ago (I think it was when he was announced as Jordan's replacement for ending WoT) and thinking the prose was as dull and flat as it could be. But everyone praised the guy so I figured I must be insane. Glad that I'm not alone...

yeah, a friend of mine described his writing as "CoD: Fantasy" because the writing was so ridiculously flat and uninteresting, even though it seemed to be trying to tell you it was interesting.

Here's my take on Mistborn:

The story isn't bad, just nothing groundbreaking either. Some nice plot twists and cool scenes, likeable enough characters if not very deep. All in all, it would make a good video game. In fact, that's exactly how it reads, like instructions on how to play some magic fantasy Assassin's Creed clone. Press X to burn your equipped metal! Burn steel and iron to jump and parkour! Burn tin to increase your senses (Eagle Vision)! Burn pewter to temporarily increase attack and defense! Burn bronze to detect nearby enemies! And of course, atium - temporary invincibility. Half of the first book really felt like a video game tutorial. The second and third books have bits of very contrived morality that really make me question it. I often agreed with the "bad" characters who suggested ruthless tactics to achieve results. It is a war to save the world after all right? How much does your honor and integrity matter when the world ends. But of course, good ol' Mormon Sanderson finds a way for the heroes to win, honor (mostly) intact. I realize not everything has to be "grimdark" to be enjoyable, but if you're going to tackle moral grays, you should explore more angles than just "nothing is black and white, but white always wins anyway." On top of that, there's all the little Mormon religious subtext that sneaks its way into the mythology and lore.

Sanderson is not a bad writer. He really does have a knack for developing magic systems (even if they are a bit contrived and almost scientifically specific) and writing a decent yarn. I have heard that the Stormlight Archives are vastly superior, although I haven't gotten around to it yet. Considering that I generally enjoyed Mistborn even though I found myself shaking my head and groaning from time to time, I'll give it a shot eventually.

I'm going to agree with the general MA consensus on American Gods; he flutters between lots of quite cool ideas but it lacks staying power. I just bought Steven Erikson's first Gardens of the Moon book since I haven't read any fantasy in ages. Any thoughts on this series?

When you finish it, and thought it had potential but some very blatant flaws, please don't give up on the series. GotM is sort of an odd one out in Erikson's Malazan series, and while many fans think it's excellent, I thought it absolutely paled in comparison to Deadhouse Gates. While DG takes a little long to get started - the first 200-250 pages don't really see much excitement - it gets excellent after that.

A word of caution: there's hardly any explanation for anything, and there's barely even any description. While GotM is a little bit purple in the very beginning, that soon makes way for some very austere prose.

Regarding Mistborn: The first book was okay I thought, not bad not great, just very predictable but it was still readable. I don't know if it was the Mormon stuff really shining through or what but the second book was so bad I couldn't finish it. Sanderson is like Scalzi, very popular but it's hard to figure out why as they're both weak writers. They seem to play it up for the fanboys so that might be an explanation but when I see that someone is a Sanderson fan my respect for their opinion on books goes down. There are some vids on youtube of Sanderson giving writing lessons at comic cons, he has a really lame sense of humor, kind of apt as it matches his writing advice.

Daaaamn, seems like Sanderson isn't exactly hot shit around here Considering what you guys have said, I'll most likely get a couple PDFs of his stuff instead of outright buying them, just to be on the safe side. Thanks for taking the time to answer, everyone.

I have a lot of thoughts on the Malazan series, as it is an intensely thought provoking series. I would agree with what Ilwhyan said and don't take Gardens of the Moon as representative of the entire series. Give it at least until the end of the second or third book and see if you want to continue. For me, Malazan is the best epic fantasy series out there at the moment, so excuse the lengthy post. A few things to note:

A lot of people say it is extremely complex and hard to understand. I didn't think it was too tough, but it is complex and requires thinking, reading between the lines, and extrapolating information from incomplete data. There is a ton of foreshadowing, unreliable characters and narrators, and things that are left ambiguous on purpose. Don't worry if you don't get something at first, it will usually be explained later. If you're into critical thinking and speculating on things as you read, this may be the single best fantasy series out there.

A lot of your favorite characters will die. If you thought George R.R. Martin was harsh on his characters, Erikson will rip out your heart. He is, however, bigger on god-like magic and super powered, mythical characters, so sometimes they come back. This could be a turn off for those who prefer more gritty realism, but in general it works well. This series is about as epic as it gets in scale and scope.

READ IAN C. ESSLEMONT'S NOVELS TOO. I can't stress this enough, especially with many naysayers who don't like his writing. I will admit, his prose is not as strong as Erikson's, but his novels fill in blanks and "plot holes" from Malazan Book of the Fallen. Both Erikson and Esslemont developed the series in college, when they used it as a backdrop for tabletop RPG. Since they were both anthropology and archaeology students, they developed a world with richly developed cultures and hundreds of thousands of years of history. They also share a lot of these, as well as characters and interwoven plotlines, so skipping ICE means missing a good chunk of the material and worldbuilding.

Yeah the Malazan series is truly something special.

Regarding Sanderson: the first Mistborn was a fun, if flawed, book. It's pretty rough at spots, but having read both Stormlight Archives I can 100% say he gets better. Like almost night and day better. I've yet to read anything else by the dude, so I can't comment on it. As far as his actual writing is concerned, his biggest influence is Robert Jordan so that's probably why it comes off as a bit bland to most.

Just finished James S. A. Corey's Abbadon's Gate. After finding Caliban's War to be slightly disappointing, this was much, much more enjoyable.

At least Sanderson doesn't tug his braid every time he gets annoyed by some woolheaded man though.

Oh, god. I have a serious hate/love thing with The Wheel of Time. Somehow I've found myself caring about what happens next and the world itself is interesting, but Jordan had no business writing anything. The last book I read, The Fires of Heaven there was almost half a page describing the colors of the fruit on a table someone was walking past. What is that shit?

It's weird to me that Sanderson studied Jordan to learn how to write, cause I find Sanderson to be extremely economical and there's very little in his books (that I've read) that is unnecessary. Whereas you could carve away at least half of the shit (sometimes almost 3/4) in any given Jordan book.

This Wheel of Time review says it all for me. May have been posted at some point, but whatever:

Phone Rep: "Hello, this is ****, representing Bigelow Tea and other fine beverages. How may I help you?"

Caller: "Well, see, I have this problem with my tea..."

P: "Which variety of tea are you having the problem with?"

C: "Bigelow Blueberry Blast."

P: "Alright...what seems to be the problem?"

C: "See, there was this one batch of tea I brewed for myself one morning. I brewed it into a gleaming silver pitcher with a matching silver ropework tray and a set of three silver cups, each with its own saucer that was engraved around the perimeter with tiny flowers. I had bought the set in Saldea. Oh, the Sea-folk porcelain is wonderful, but I'm prone to breaking it. Anyway, I poured myself a cup of tea. There were piping hot scones in a silver bowl on the tray next to the tray that held the tea. The basket was covered with a white embroidered cloth slashed with blue silk, much like my dress. Oh, the neckline is a bit too low-cut for some of my acquaintances, who prefer good stout woolens to that Arad Domai silk that clings to the body in such a way as to leave very little to the imagination. So, as I was eating a scone and drinking my cup of tea, the steam from each rising and intertwining together like dueling serpents, I noticed a peculiar taste in the tea: it was cool and refreshing, with a hint of mint. Of course, I thought nothing of it. Giving my earlobe a tug and my braid a pull, I remembered the idiocy of every one of my male friends, indeed every male I have ever come into contact with, or ever will for that matter. The lot of woolheads can never compete with the superior logic and rock-solid reasoning that every female in the known universe possesses. It's no wonder we all behave the same."

P: "Um...what was your problem with the tea?"

C: "Oh yes, I'm sorry. After I had consumed the tea, I placed the cup on the silver ropework tray and covered the gleaming silver basket of scones again with the white embroidered cloth slashed with bands of blue silk, much like my dress. I remembered the stout man in the streets of Tar Valon: a vendor of sausages he was. Though I know I will never see him again, I felt it necessary to familiarize myself with every aspect of his appearance and personal history. He was a short, stout man with black hair that was beginning to grey at the temples, slicked back on his head in the manner of warriors, though it was obvious he was not one. He wore brown shoes of stained leather that rustled softly against the dirt of the streets, kicking up clouds of dust that lingered in the air even after he had passed. His pants were of stiff wool, dyed green and patched in many places. He wore a leather jerkin over a soiled white peasant's shirt, the cuffs of his sleeves rolled up and out of his way. Around his neck was a silver chain with a medallion attached to it that bore the image of a bear. He spoke with a gruff voice..."

P: "The TEA, ma'am."

C: "Well you don't have to be rude about it. I was only filling you in on the relevant details."

P: "I don't have all day, ma'am."

C: "You do remind me of a lad I once knew, back when I used to frequent the palace in Camelyn..."

P: "Look, we'll send you a case of Blueberry tea, alright?"

C: "Oh...alright then, I suppose that will do nicely."

P: "Do you have any other problems?"

C: "Well, there is this one other problem I have, but it's not with your tea. The other day, I was pouring myself a goblet of spiced wine. Only the wine had grown cold after being left on the windowsill for whatever reason. So I siezed hold of saidar. It was pure rapture...like opening all of my petals to the sun, for I am a flower. It was like floating in a river that tore along with great speed: resist it and you would be consumed by it. So I accepted it and was consumed by the sweet joy. I sent a tiny thread of fire into the pitcher to warm the wine. Soon, steam rose from the pitcher of gold, sunlight rebounding on the inset gems. I removed the pitcher from the stark Cairheinien plinth of the finest marble and poured myself a glass. But the use of saidar had turned the spices bitter..."

*CLICK*

C: "Hello? Hello? Wool-headed sheep-herder..."

Yeah, that's it exactly.

If the rest of the books fill the blanks in the same manner as Night of Knives, those plot holes are better left as is.

Regarding Sanderson, I got the first book of his Stormlight series and it was an entertaining enough read, but he did the same thing with the magic system as people have complained here with Mistborn: Explaining it from top to bottom, like he was writing the Guide to Magic sourcebook for some RPG. There's some mysticism there in a way, but it feels like a magic system developed more for an action-oriented series or game rather than anything well thought out.

Regarding Moorcock, I really liked his Gloriana Or the Unfulfilled Queen - A fantastic take on Elizabeth I's rule in England. I'm currently reading some omnibus of his early sci-fi works from the 60s and you can definitely feel the rather flimsy, psychedelic take of his on the subject in comparison to the more modern sci-fi that I've read.

Haha, that Wheel of Time review is nearly spot-on. I don't mind so much ridiculously in-depth descriptions of things as I feel like that kind of thing is good for letting writers really express their style, but the most irritating thing for me is the uselessly gigantic cast of indistinguishable characters because Jordan only had like four different character archetypes copypasted to about ten million characters who mostly stand around talking and repeating mannerisms constantly (and getting naked under just about every circumstance, if they're attractive female characters). That whole saga could've been cool if Jordan had opted to work with a better writer to actually write the things for him and cut out all of the useless, annoying shit.

Yeah, the description thing is a little too much for me for Wheel of Time. I own half of the books, mainly because they were cheap but I could never get past the first book. It reminds me of the Jellybean sentence in " 'Repent, Harlequin!' Said the Ticktockman" by Harlan Ellison. That is purple prose done right.

Has anyone ever heard of Irene Iddesleigh by Amanda McKittrick Ross? Irene is sort of like to Sense and Sensibility/Pride and Prejudice type books as Wheel of Time is to High Fantasy books. The prose was so descriptive and fucking silly that Tolkien and his author buddies had contests on who could read the book the longest, out loud.

Night of Knives is kind of the exception. I like it, but it really doesn't add anything that wasn't already explained in the main series. Return of the Crimson Guard though, is essential.

The others are much better than Night of Knives as well, as they are more in line with the main series.

I have Gloriana on my shelf but have yet to read it - definitely looking forward to it, though. Is the omnibus you're referring to The Roads Between the Worlds? I quite like the "flimsy, psychedelic take" on sci-fi in those and agree with your characterization, assuming by "flimsy" you mean rather light on the science and tech aspects. The Black Corridor is in my opinion the best of Michael Moorcock's straight sci-fi material, though.

It's called "Moorcock's Multiverse", the novels are "The Sundered Worlds", "The Winds of Limbo" and "The Shores of Death". And yeah, by flimsy I meant just that. Everything scientific and technical is given no thought at all, travel between planets and universes as well as battles and the techniques used in those are handled with very little explanation. Perhaps flimsy is a bit too loaded a word to use. I didn't mean to imply that it's worse than what I'm used to, just different.

Ah OK, that's 2 of the 3 novels contained in the omnibus I have, with "The Wrecks of Time" taking the place of "The Sundered Worlds". Those early Moorcock novels can be very irritating to keep straight, as many were published with variant names - "The Sundered Worlds" for example was also "The Blood Red Game", "The Shores of Death" was also "The Twilight Man", etc. It hasn't happened to me personally, but I imagine many a Moorcock fan has accidentally bought something he already owns under a different title. Also, there are a variety of revised versions for some of the books - notably, "Gloriana" was published with a much-revised ending later on.

Speaking personally, I really don't like the new industry standard for sci-fi and fantasy where it seems the default length is 400-500 pages, with anything up to 1000 being pretty commonplace. Back in the 60s and 70s, 150-250 pages was the "sweet spot" for the industry, and it forced its authors to be much more economical in their writing and considered in their pacing. Plus, if I get to the end of a 200 page book and it wasn't very good, I haven't wasted nearly as much time as with an 800-page doorstopper. But readers these days seem to genuinely prefer novels where they can just immerse themselves in bloated worldbuilding for weeks on end, even if it's not even good - like Wheel of Time.

I've just finished China Mieville's The City & The City, which I was prompted to check out after reading his similarly excellent Embassytown. A very good read that offers a pretty unique take on the murder mystery premise, and it doesn't overstay its welcome at just over 300 pages (brevity tends to be a plus for me most of the time-- like failsafeman mentioned, the longer a book, particularly a fantasy or sci fi novel gets, the more liable it is to sacrifice actual content in favour of bloated exposition about the narrative's setting). Good writers can thread that exposition into the narrative in such a way that it doesn't pull the reader out of the narrative, or feel like a generic info-dump, and given the unusual nature of The City & The City's setting and how easily it could have torpedoed itself trying to explain the setting to the reader, I think Mieville does a pretty good job of that.

Finally finished up Neal Stephenson's The Baroque Cycle. I haven't had nearly enough for heavy reading lately, so it feels like such an accomplishment to finally put that 3000 pager behind me. I loved Snow Crash and Anathem so I gave it a shot. So much freaking plot to wade through, but in the end it was a pretty good story and I was satisfied with all of the threads coming together in the last 200 pages.

Thanks very much (also, CardsOfWar) for the feedback. Seems like I got a hell of a ride to look forward to


Out of curiosity I also checked out Titan Comics' recent adaptation of Elric, seeing that even Moorcock himself loves it. The art direction is incredible; very effective in depicting the ultra-decadence of the Melniboneans. Think of imperial China, but with elves & fetish fashion. I like.

What I don't like so much is where there are major divergences from the novel, like where While these changes are not bad by themselves, they're definitely inferior to the original sequences & are kinda mood-kill. Still, this series definitely has lots of potential. I look forward to future issues.

I probably should've posted this in the comics thread. Mea culpa