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JoeCapricorn
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Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:36 pm
Posts: 139
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:42 am 
 

Surprise surprise... Roadrunner is a member of the RIAA.

However, I'm glad Relapse isn't, they're local (as in... literally, they are from my area, even got a few local bands signed)

Metal Blade isn't, neither is Nuclear Blast, or Century Media.
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OzzyApu
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am
Posts: 9793
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:44 am 
 

JoeCapricorn wrote:
Surprise surprise... Roadrunner is a member of the RIAA.

However, I'm glad Relapse isn't, they're local (as in... literally, they are from my area, even got a few local bands signed)

Metal Blade isn't, neither is Nuclear Blast, or Century Media.

Does that mean we're off the hook if we download artists that aren't part of the RIAA? Retarded question, I know, but if we are, then I will fap till I can fap no more.
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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:45 am 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
JoeCapricorn wrote:
Surprise surprise... Roadrunner is a member of the RIAA.

However, I'm glad Relapse isn't, they're local (as in... literally, they are from my area, even got a few local bands signed)

Metal Blade isn't, neither is Nuclear Blast, or Century Media.

Does that mean we're off the hook if we download artists that aren't part of the RIAA? Retarded question, I know, but if we are, then I will fap till I can fap no more.


yeah as long as you steer clear of RIAA related artist you are in the clear.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte
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Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:46 am 
 

A copyright holder can still sue you for infringement either way, it has nothing to do with the RIAA. The thing about this whole fisaco though, is that the RIAA is the one pushing all of these lawsuits. So no you're not 100% clear, but the chances are very slim that an indy record label is going to sue you over downloading and sharing, much less find out that you are.
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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:52 am 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
A copyright holder can still sue you for infringement either way, it has nothing to do with the RIAA. The thing about this whole fisaco though, is that the RIAA is the one pushing all of these lawsuits. So no you're not 100% clear, but the chances are very slim that an indy record label is going to sue you over downloading and sharing, much less find out that you are.


Yeah I actually even read somewhere a few Indy labels were trying to pull out of the RIAA agreements because they felt all this file sharing crack downs would hurt the image they were trying to put out.
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I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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mpawluk
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:00 pm
Posts: 59
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:55 am 
 

The_Count wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
A copyright holder can still sue you for infringement either way, it has nothing to do with the RIAA. The thing about this whole fisaco though, is that the RIAA is the one pushing all of these lawsuits. So no you're not 100% clear, but the chances are very slim that an indy record label is going to sue you over downloading and sharing, much less find out that you are.


Yeah I actually even read somewhere a few Indy labels were trying to pull out of the RIAA agreements because they felt all this file sharing crack downs would hurt the image they were trying to put out.

I wouldn't be surprised. Somebody who had no knowledge of record labels could very easily look at the RIAA's actions and make the assumption that every record label is like that. You'd have to be ignorant, but that's plentiful in society.
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MattFrost
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:56 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:29 am 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
The way it was meant to be acquired: by buying albums/cds/tapes etc and supporting the artists.


While I agree that you should buy the actual product whenever you can, I have a few issues with this statement:

It's not always possible to buy an actual CD if the band or label doesn't release the album in your country. If I want to buy an Ensiferum CD I either have to pay through the nose for an import, or buy it secondhand/trade for it (in which case, the band wouldn't get any revenue), because there is no US distribution.

If a record label releases an album I am waiting for in Europe and Japan, but waits 6 months before putting it out in the USA, I feel that I am the one being cheated, so I have no moral issue downloading the CD and then buying the actual pressing when it comes out here. And as a sub-complaint, it hacks me off when bands release extra tracks and goodies only in other countries, so if I want that one song I then have to pay an import cost on the same album just to get the Japanese pressing which has the extra track. And, there's also the issue of out-of-print CD's.

You're assuming that the RIAA is protecting the artists, and they are not- they're protecting the labels. Most artists that fall under the RIAA banner don't own the copyrights to their own music. The major labels, some of the larger indies, and the RIAA have been legally ripping off bands and musicians for decades now, and they haven't had to pay back one red cent to any of the people they've shafted over the years. Today's artists know that digital sharing is the future, and that they don't need the RIAA or the big labels so much anymore. The goal of these laws is not to punish a housewife, it's to try and prevent technology from rendering their business obsolete. Ideally the RIAA wants control, they want to be able to tell you what's good and shut out every other unsigned or independent artist out there, and use the internet as adspace for all the crap they regurgitate year in and year out. And I am sorry but it bothers me when people say, well, if you download, you're stealing from the artist.

I never would have heard of half the bands I listen to had it not been for downloading. I wouldn't have went out and bought what CD's I could find. I wouldn't have gone to see these bands live. I wouldn't have bought their T-shirts at the shows. I wouldn't have played them for other people, thus influencing many of my friends and bandmates to purchase things from the artist. As an artist myself I'd rather have my song traded without my consent and without making a royalty and have that lead to more people at my shows, more people buying T-shirts, stickers, pins, patches (as I would have more control over that and have a bigger profit margin) than to have a strictly limited system of digital sharing which would become affordable and/or practical only to big labels with advertising dollars. I'd rather have more people hear the music, write the cost of making the album off as an expense, and make the money back on the road and through merchandise. For major label artists, who make pennies on the dollar for CD royalties, this has been standard practice for 40 years. Sadder still is how many of these artists are duped into supporting the "downloading is theft" campaign, all while being robbed by the label they're on.

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OzzyApu
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:49 am 
 

Image
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Yesterday was the birthday of school pal and I met the chick of my sigh (I've talked about here before, the she-wolf I use to be inlove with)... Maaan she was using a mini-skirt too damn insane... Dude you could saw her entire soul every time she sit...

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Mors_Gloria
See? Marge was right!! ^

Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:07 am
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Location: Greece
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:02 pm 
 

Yeah, right. No one will sue me for downloading music. Especially in Greece.
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Bash
Talking Meat

Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 6:06 am
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:14 pm 
 

It'd be interesting to see how far the music industry would be willing to go if they got their own way. They have already shown they have no moral qualms over literally ruining lives over a few mp3's.

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Nocturnum_Pestis
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am
Posts: 33
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:17 pm 
 

While I used to download I don't anymore for the fact it feels wrong to me personally also on topic of the RIAA the best way to get round that problem is either order directly from the artists or distro so that no mediums are needed and all the money goes to the label/artist (well the bigger percentage of the profits anyway compared to outlet shops like HMV or whatever).
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orionmetalhead
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:19 pm 
 

Matt I will respond later. I got class in a few minutes. I look forward to reading your post though.
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mrchris
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Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:32 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:15 pm 
 

There's gotta be several reasons why people download..

1) Too expensive
2) "try before you buy"
3) Sticking it to "the man"
4) Little to no expendable income

If I didn't dl Impaled Nazarene's Manifest, I wouldn't have gone and purchased 3 additional albums of theirs.
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Scum_Terrorist
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:03 am
Posts: 94
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:35 pm 
 

Napoleon wrote:
Quote:
* Any computer or network hardware used to "facilitate" a copyright crime could be seized by the Justice Department and auctioned off. The proceeds would be funneled to the agency's budget. The process is called civil asset forfeiture, and typically the owner does not need to be found guilty of a crime for his property to be taken.


How the fuck is that even legal? Fucking cocksuckers drunk with power.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:36 pm 
 

mrchris wrote:
There's gotta be several reasons why people download..


Option 5(and by far the most common) You're a cheap bastard.
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Leify
A Whisper of Death

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am
Posts: 744
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:37 pm 
 

Scum_Terrorist wrote:
Napoleon wrote:
* Any computer or network hardware used to "facilitate" a copyright crime could be seized by the Justice Department and auctioned off. The proceeds would be funneled to the agency's budget. The process is called civil asset forfeiture, and typically the owner does not need to be found guilty of a crime for his property to be taken.


How the fuck is that even legal? Fucking cocksuckers drunk with power.


It wouldn't hold up in court anyway, assuming you ever got through court proceedings to get to higher courts.
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Last edited by Leify on Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:38 pm 
 

Scum_Terrorist wrote:
Napoleon wrote:
Quote:
* Any computer or network hardware used to "facilitate" a copyright crime could be seized by the Justice Department and auctioned off. The proceeds would be funneled to the agency's budget. The process is called civil asset forfeiture, and typically the owner does not need to be found guilty of a crime for his property to be taken.


How the fuck is that even legal? Fucking cocksuckers drunk with power.


Yeah even I will agree that is going way to far and I cant believe they get away with that.

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
mrchris wrote:
There's gotta be several reasons why people download..


Option 5(and by far the most common) You're a cheap bastard.


It was never easy for me. I was born a poor black child and thus never had the money for your fancy compact disk.
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Leify
A Whisper of Death

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am
Posts: 744
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:48 pm 
 

Leify wrote:
Scum_Terrorist wrote:
Napoleon wrote:
* Any computer or network hardware used to "facilitate" a copyright crime could be seized by the Justice Department and auctioned off. The proceeds would be funneled to the agency's budget. The process is called civil asset forfeiture, and typically the owner does not need to be found guilty of a crime for his property to be taken.


How the fuck is that even legal? Fucking cocksuckers drunk with power.


It wouldn't hold up in court anyway, assuming you ever got through court proceedings to get to higher courts.


Actually...it'd probably be better just to destroy your property yourself before seizure
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orionmetalhead
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2006 9:54 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:01 pm 
 

My response:

MattFrost wrote:
orionmetalhead wrote:
The way it was meant to be acquired: by buying albums/cds/tapes etc and supporting the artists.


While I agree that you should buy the actual product whenever you can, I have a few issues with this statement:

It's not always possible to buy an actual CD if the band or label doesn't release the album in your country. If I want to buy an Ensiferum CD I either have to pay through the nose for an import, or buy it secondhand/trade for it (in which case, the band wouldn't get any revenue), because there is no US distribution.


In today's global economy, you can get anything for a relatively good price. Ebay / trading with other users (be it originals or copies until you can get an original), both of these are available options open to anyone. The only exception are hard to find out of print albums which can understandably go for a lot of money but which are also worth more money.

This is akin to the "when purchasing albums does duration make a big difference?" thread. Ultimately, the major consensus seemed to be that an album is worth buying if it is a good album regardless of length. Many also said that if the album is good, price isnt an option. I would assume that this also relates to this topic. If the album is good enough, If the band is good enough, is price really going to matter?

To be honest. I only have a problem with those who abuse the ability to download.

Quote:
If a record label releases an album I am waiting for in Europe and Japan, but waits 6 months before putting it out in the USA, I feel that I am the one being cheated, so I have no moral issue downloading the CD and then buying the actual pressing when it comes out here. And as a sub-complaint, it hacks me off when bands release extra tracks and goodies only in other countries, so if I want that one song I then have to pay an import cost on the same album just to get the Japanese pressing which has the extra track. And, there's also the issue of out-of-print CD's.


This is a good point and one that I can't necessarily argue. Of course, through trading and such you can acquire these tracks, it is usually not worth the effort for such an insignificant reward. Then again... without downloading, these tracks would be worth much, much more as stand alone tracks.

Quote:
You're assuming that the RIAA is protecting the artists, and they are not- they're protecting the labels. Most artists that fall under the RIAA banner don't own the copyrights to their own music. The major labels, some of the larger indies, and the RIAA have been legally ripping off bands and musicians for decades now, and they haven't had to pay back one red cent to any of the people they've shafted over the years. Today's artists know that digital sharing is the future, and that they don't need the RIAA or the big labels so much anymore. The goal of these laws is not to punish a housewife, it's to try and prevent technology from rendering their business obsolete. Ideally the RIAA wants control, they want to be able to tell you what's good and shut out every other unsigned or independent artist out there, and use the internet as adspace for all the crap they regurgitate year in and year out. And I am sorry but it bothers me when people say, well, if you download, you're stealing from the artist.


By protecting labels with good intentions, it also protects the artists that are on that label's roster. Why aren't labels able to send artists over seas? Why are labels forced to sell well put together albums for more money than they should be? It's because the labels, and not the artists, don't have the resources. (I am specifically talking about the underground labels - the labels hurt most by downloading) Hypothetically, if you stop people from downloading, and you get people buying albums, the labels increase their profits and can put more backing behind artists touring. Label support is what allows bands to tour consistently and without burning themselves out. Support of this kind would also allow bands to play in places that they otherwise would not have played where people want them to play. We all hear people complaining that bands aren't playing their area... this is why.

Being in a band that plays shows and has travelled, I know the expenses that are involved. Without the support of a financially secure label, bands are screwed.

Quote:
I never would have heard of half the bands I listen to had it not been for downloading. I wouldn't have went out and bought what CD's I could find. I wouldn't have gone to see these bands live. I wouldn't have bought their T-shirts at the shows. I wouldn't have played them for other people, thus influencing many of my friends and bandmates to purchase things from the artist. As an artist myself I'd rather have my song traded without my consent and without making a royalty and have that lead to more people at my shows, more people buying T-shirts, stickers, pins, patches (as I would have more control over that and have a bigger profit margin) than to have a strictly limited system of digital sharing which would become affordable and/or practical only to big labels with advertising dollars. I'd rather have more people hear the music, write the cost of making the album off as an expense, and make the money back on the road and through merchandise. For major label artists, who make pennies on the dollar for CD royalties, this has been standard practice for 40 years. Sadder still is how many of these artists are duped into supporting the "downloading is theft" campaign, all while being robbed by the label they're on.


With myspace and other similar websites, there is no reason to have to rely on downloading to find music. Most labels share mp3's and have downloadable content. Youtube also has a vast worth of music available to listen to. PLUS with a little ingenuity, you can take those tracks on myspace that the bands don't allow you to download and record them straight into your computer for enjoyment later.

Plus, there are these things called magazines which are written by profesional music journalists who cover bands that you and I and others have never really heard of before. I mean, downloading doesn't just affect the artists and labels. it affects just about everyone in the music industry in some way. What will happen to the artists and graphic designers that make the artwork and layouts for albums if downloading takes over the way we purchase and recieve music?

To be honest, the fact that you still buy albums that you feel are worth buying is still proof that the physical, tangible format of the almighty album, is still more important to metal fans than anything. I know for myself, the album artwork and booklet and all the enjoyment that comes with unwrapping a newly purchased cd or package from some trader in the mail is far more appealing to me than clicking a few buttons on a computer. I am not really worried per say about most metal fans however the current generation of kids growing up, are growing up in a society in which applauds media that are "easy" and "disposable."
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reconcile
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:10 pm
Posts: 37
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:22 pm 
 

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet, although 90% of you probably have seen it already.

This is regarding to the shutting down of OiNK

http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/w ... th-of.html

By the way, to those in question over blogs, do not fret. It isn't possible or legal to be caught using megaupload or rapidshare.

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The_Count
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Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:34 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
To be honest, the fact that you still buy albums that you feel are worth buying is still proof that the physical, tangible format of the almighty album, is still more important to metal fans than anything. I know for myself, the album artwork and booklet and all the enjoyment that comes with unwrapping a newly purchased cd or package from some trader in the mail is far more appealing to me than clicking a few buttons on a computer. I am not really worried per say about most metal fans however the current generation of kids growing up, are growing up in a society in which applauds media that are "easy" and "disposable."


I agree with this, I do enjoy the booklet and artwork that comes with buying a cd. However I also love the power I can abuse of being able to download virtually any type of music I want in the world for absolutely nothing.



reconcile wrote:
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet, although 90% of you probably have seen it already.

This is regarding to the shutting down of OiNK

http://www.demonbaby.com/blog/2007/10/w ... th-of.html

By the way, to those in question over blogs, do not fret. It isn't possible or legal to be caught using megaupload or rapidshare.


Ahh that is good news. All the music I get is usually from those seedy south american blog websites that I sometimes struggle to navigate :lol:
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OzzyApu
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:11 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:38 pm 
 

The_Count wrote:
Ahh that is good news. All the music I get is usually from those seedy south american blog websites that I sometimes struggle to navigate :lol:

Thanks Cristo for those South Americanos, honestly. They are lifesavers.
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UnserHeiligeTod
Lagompräst

Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:45 pm
Posts: 1057
Location: Colombia
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:42 pm 
 

OzzyApu wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Ahh that is good news. All the music I get is usually from those seedy south american blog websites that I sometimes struggle to navigate :lol:

Thanks Cristo for those South Americanos, honestly. They are lifesavers.

:wink: You're welcome. Piracy and drugs = our department.

(just as a precautionary measure) The last bit was meant to be sarcastic. I don't take pride in either of those.

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MattFrost
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:56 pm
Posts: 186
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:44 am 
 

MattFrost wrote:
today's global economy, you can get anything for a relatively good price. Ebay / trading with other users (be it originals or copies until you can get an original), both of these are available options open to anyone. The only exception are hard to find out of print albums which can understandably go for a lot of money but which are also worth more money.


I fail to see the difference between trading copies of CD's physically and downloading it. Is the act of trading a physical object superior to downloading the album? It seems to me that going through all that effort to obtain a copy of the CD which still transfers no compensation to the band is just a way to assuage one's conscience. Well, one smugly thinks, at least I didn't "download" it. No, but unless you purchased it first-hand so that the band makes a royalty and the label recoups expenses, then what you're doing is the moral equivalent. You're just making it harder on yourself to justify the 'theft'.

Quote:
This is akin to the "when purchasing albums does duration make a big difference?" thread. Ultimately, the major consensus seemed to be that an album is worth buying if it is a good album regardless of length. Many also said that if the album is good, price isnt an option. I would assume that this also relates to this topic. If the album is good enough, If the band is good enough, is price really going to matter?


My argument vis a vis the import isn't just about cost, though. It's about the label, for whatever reason, sending me the message that as someone who does not live in their distribution zone, I am not worth the effort it takes (which isn't very much) to get our CD's distributed here. It's a Marie Antoinette-ish "let them eat Slipknot" attitude that I find terribly fucking insulting, because I want to support that label and their bands, but they keep on saying, you're not worth it, and if you want it you have to pay twice as much as the kid in Germany or Japan. So, what I do is I keep my eyes open for an opportunity to buy the actual titles when I can, but if I can't, I download. Album not out in the US for four more months? That's another "fuck you" from the record label, so I download it.

Quote:
To be honest. I only have a problem with those who abuse the ability to download.


I can't claim to have a moral problem with it since my musical palette has expanded so much because of it. I would be a screaming hypocrite to say that people shouldn't download, or that they should only download so much. People determine their own level of involvement depending on their conscience. My belief only works for me, I wouldn't seek to impose it on you or the person with 100 albums in their queue, I'm just rebutting the point that the RIAA is protecting the artists, as well as the fallacious argument that downloading hurts independent musicians. I have found that it helps more than it hurts, and that clinging to the RIAA standard is akin to rearranging the furniture on the Titanic.

Quote:
This is a good point and one that I can't necessarily argue. Of course, through trading and such you can acquire these tracks, it is usually not worth the effort for such an insignificant reward. Then again... without downloading, these tracks would be worth much, much more as stand alone tracks.


Maybe, but I don't collect music for it's worth as a commodity. To me, it's not like trading baseball cards. If I were such a collector I would collect vinyl, and I know a lot of people who do. In fact, I recommend that any artist who wants to download-proof their music release their songs on vinyl, because even if they get the digital file somehow, the vinyl will hold all of the worth.

Quote:
By protecting labels with good intentions, it also protects the artists that are on that label's roster.


The RIAA is a lobbying group formed to protect the labels at any cost from anyone- especially artists who realize how bad they're getting fucked. They have no good intentions, their entire purpose is to legally insulate themselves from technology that would force them to either evolve or go obsolete. It would be like an organization dedicated to protecting the buggy whips from the scourge of automobiles in the late 19th century.

Quote:
Why aren't labels able to send artists over seas? Why are labels forced to sell well put together albums for more money than they should be? It's because the labels, and not the artists, don't have the resources. (I am specifically talking about the underground labels - the labels hurt most by downloading)


I can't agree with that. I can personally tell you of over $2000 that various small metal labels would not have made off of me had I not downloaded their music first, and that's just in CD sales, not counting the direct support of bands live. The reason bands don't come overseas is because they have to cultivate enough of a following to ensure that the tour will at least break even and hopefully make money. It's usually not up to the label to send the band on tour, especially an independent. The indies usually have the band take care of those arrangements through hiring a private agent. So, in order for a band to embark on such a task, it has to be worth the cost. Europe is cheaper to tour in and metal is more popular, so there is little risk and a lot of reward. Coming overseas you have to deal with customs, taxes, visas, renting equipment and a van or bus, and not being sure if you're going to make ends meet. There's a huge cost to touring in the US, ask anyone who has done it (if you have, you know). And the rewards? Not so guaranteed.

Quote:
Hypothetically, if you stop people from downloading, and you get people buying albums, the labels increase their profits and can put more backing behind artists touring.


That's a bold hypothetical, because you will never really stop downloading. It's like saying, well, if we just wear sweaters it won't be so cold in the winter.

Quote:
Label support is what allows bands to tour consistently and without burning themselves out. Support of this kind would also allow bands to play in places that they otherwise would not have played where people want them to play. We all hear people complaining that bands aren't playing their area... this is why.


No, I answered that above. Only major labels offer tour support and guess what- the bands usually have to pay it back out of THEIR pittance that they get from CD royalties. Any time a band takes label tour support, it comes right out of their pennies on the dollar, the label doesn't pay for it out of the kindness of their hearts. Smaller labels, like I said, put the responsibility for touring on the bands (where it should be) and hence, a band chooses where to tour so that they can make the most money while incurring the least amount of cost. They go where the money is guaranteed, not where it's iffy.

Quote:
Being in a band that plays shows and has travelled, I know the expenses that are involved. Without the support of a financially secure label, bands are screwed.


I've done that many times myself and never did we have label support. The most our label did was to ship our merch to us when we were running low, but we paid for the merch. Labels are becoming an expendable middleman these days, and the ones who are going to survive are going to be the ones who can adapt to the changing market and who can utilize technology in their favor rather than resisting it and going down kicking and screaming.

Quote:
With myspace and other similar websites, there is no reason to have to rely on downloading to find music. Most labels share mp3's and have downloadable content. Youtube also has a vast worth of music available to listen to. PLUS with a little ingenuity, you can take those tracks on myspace that the bands don't allow you to download and record them straight into your computer for enjoyment later.


Sure, I know that. Like I said, I am not someone who sits home all day adding bands to a queue and downloading whole albums. If something piques my interest I will try and find it, and only download if it's the last resort (or if I feel slighted by labels that don't think I'm worth the effort to market to).

Quote:
Plus, there are these things called magazines which are written by profesional music journalists who cover bands that you and I and others have never really heard of before. I mean, downloading doesn't just affect the artists and labels. it affects just about everyone in the music industry in some way. What will happen to the artists and graphic designers that make the artwork and layouts for albums if downloading takes over the way we purchase and recieve music?


They will find a way to market their skills in a digital environment. Happens all the time. And magazines are also going the way of the dinosaur because, well, places like the Archives, or other well-established webzines that are not simply advertising sheets for the record labels. Very few printed magazines are truly unbiased and objective, they're governed by the labels and businesses that purchase ad space. Pan a CD that a label has invested a lot of promotional dollars in? You will never see their money again. Even happened to me once when reviewing for a website, which is why I won't waste my time writing solicited reviews.

Quote:
To be honest, the fact that you still buy albums that you feel are worth buying is still proof that the physical, tangible format of the almighty album, is still more important to metal fans than anything.


Well of course it is. I still buy CD's sometimes- get this- without even listening to them first! If I like the band's artwork, or the general theme of the artist, hey, it's $15, I'll give it a shot. 75% of the time I am happy, and 25% of the time I get to write an angry, unrestricted review. Works for me, I guess, maybe because I am older and it's just how I grew up, shopping for albums.

Quote:
I know for myself, the album artwork and booklet and all the enjoyment that comes with unwrapping a newly purchased cd or package from some trader in the mail is far more appealing to me than clicking a few buttons on a computer. I am not really worried per say about most metal fans however the current generation of kids growing up, are growing up in a society in which applauds media that are "easy" and "disposable."


I could write another 10,000 word post about this, and I don't disagree with you entirely, but I'm a pragmatist. Whatever will get people listening to my music, so be it. I have no interest in dickering around with a label whose sole purpose is to horn in on my creative process and give me a bum deal while sending me out there with stars in my eyes. I'm not 18 anymore. Downloading allows for a more level playing field between listeners and artists. It challenges us to work harder to get people to spend their money on our products. In an endless sea of crap where anyone can put music online, it makes us work that much more to stand above the tide. And in the end, the power comes to us- not to a label or some middleman that we have to entrust our fate to. The labels know this and they're fucking terrified, so they sic the RIAA on anyone they can, extort money from the people who can afford least to fight the lawsuits, and try and scare people with bullshit predictions of starving musicians and artists being ripped off and boo hoo hoo, and dammit, I just don't like being lied to and manipulated by a bunch of greedy sack-munchers sitting on bajillions of dollars made off the backs of gullible consumers. For the first time since the inception of recorded music, labels have competition, and they don't like it. Fuck them. Evolve or perish.

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:03 am 
 

MattFrost wrote:
MattFrost wrote:
today's global economy, you can get anything for a relatively good price. Ebay / trading with other users (be it originals or copies until you can get an original), both of these are available options open to anyone. The only exception are hard to find out of print albums which can understandably go for a lot of money but which are also worth more money.


I fail to see the difference between trading copies of CD's physically and downloading it. Is the act of trading a physical object superior to downloading the album? It seems to me that going through all that effort to obtain a copy of the CD which still transfers no compensation to the band is just a way to assuage one's conscience. Well, one smugly thinks, at least I didn't "download" it. No, but unless you purchased it first-hand so that the band makes a royalty and the label recoups expenses, then what you're doing is the moral equivalent. You're just making it harder on yourself to justify the 'theft'.

Quote:
This is akin to the "when purchasing albums does duration make a big difference?" thread. Ultimately, the major consensus seemed to be that an album is worth buying if it is a good album regardless of length. Many also said that if the album is good, price isnt an option. I would assume that this also relates to this topic. If the album is good enough, If the band is good enough, is price really going to matter?


My argument vis a vis the import isn't just about cost, though. It's about the label, for whatever reason, sending me the message that as someone who does not live in their distribution zone, I am not worth the effort it takes (which isn't very much) to get our CD's distributed here. It's a Marie Antoinette-ish "let them eat Slipknot" attitude that I find terribly fucking insulting, because I want to support that label and their bands, but they keep on saying, you're not worth it, and if you want it you have to pay twice as much as the kid in Germany or Japan. So, what I do is I keep my eyes open for an opportunity to buy the actual titles when I can, but if I can't, I download. Album not out in the US for four more months? That's another "fuck you" from the record label, so I download it.

Quote:
To be honest. I only have a problem with those who abuse the ability to download.


I can't claim to have a moral problem with it since my musical palette has expanded so much because of it. I would be a screaming hypocrite to say that people shouldn't download, or that they should only download so much. People determine their own level of involvement depending on their conscience. My belief only works for me, I wouldn't seek to impose it on you or the person with 100 albums in their queue, I'm just rebutting the point that the RIAA is protecting the artists, as well as the fallacious argument that downloading hurts independent musicians. I have found that it helps more than it hurts, and that clinging to the RIAA standard is akin to rearranging the furniture on the Titanic.

Quote:
This is a good point and one that I can't necessarily argue. Of course, through trading and such you can acquire these tracks, it is usually not worth the effort for such an insignificant reward. Then again... without downloading, these tracks would be worth much, much more as stand alone tracks.


Maybe, but I don't collect music for it's worth as a commodity. To me, it's not like trading baseball cards. If I were such a collector I would collect vinyl, and I know a lot of people who do. In fact, I recommend that any artist who wants to download-proof their music release their songs on vinyl, because even if they get the digital file somehow, the vinyl will hold all of the worth.

Quote:
By protecting labels with good intentions, it also protects the artists that are on that label's roster.


The RIAA is a lobbying group formed to protect the labels at any cost from anyone- especially artists who realize how bad they're getting fucked. They have no good intentions, their entire purpose is to legally insulate themselves from technology that would force them to either evolve or go obsolete. It would be like an organization dedicated to protecting the buggy whips from the scourge of automobiles in the late 19th century.

Quote:
Why aren't labels able to send artists over seas? Why are labels forced to sell well put together albums for more money than they should be? It's because the labels, and not the artists, don't have the resources. (I am specifically talking about the underground labels - the labels hurt most by downloading)


I can't agree with that. I can personally tell you of over $2000 that various small metal labels would not have made off of me had I not downloaded their music first, and that's just in CD sales, not counting the direct support of bands live. The reason bands don't come overseas is because they have to cultivate enough of a following to ensure that the tour will at least break even and hopefully make money. It's usually not up to the label to send the band on tour, especially an independent. The indies usually have the band take care of those arrangements through hiring a private agent. So, in order for a band to embark on such a task, it has to be worth the cost. Europe is cheaper to tour in and metal is more popular, so there is little risk and a lot of reward. Coming overseas you have to deal with customs, taxes, visas, renting equipment and a van or bus, and not being sure if you're going to make ends meet. There's a huge cost to touring in the US, ask anyone who has done it (if you have, you know). And the rewards? Not so guaranteed.

Quote:
Hypothetically, if you stop people from downloading, and you get people buying albums, the labels increase their profits and can put more backing behind artists touring.


That's a bold hypothetical, because you will never really stop downloading. It's like saying, well, if we just wear sweaters it won't be so cold in the winter.

Quote:
Label support is what allows bands to tour consistently and without burning themselves out. Support of this kind would also allow bands to play in places that they otherwise would not have played where people want them to play. We all hear people complaining that bands aren't playing their area... this is why.


No, I answered that above. Only major labels offer tour support and guess what- the bands usually have to pay it back out of THEIR pittance that they get from CD royalties. Any time a band takes label tour support, it comes right out of their pennies on the dollar, the label doesn't pay for it out of the kindness of their hearts. Smaller labels, like I said, put the responsibility for touring on the bands (where it should be) and hence, a band chooses where to tour so that they can make the most money while incurring the least amount of cost. They go where the money is guaranteed, not where it's iffy.

Quote:
Being in a band that plays shows and has travelled, I know the expenses that are involved. Without the support of a financially secure label, bands are screwed.


I've done that many times myself and never did we have label support. The most our label did was to ship our merch to us when we were running low, but we paid for the merch. Labels are becoming an expendable middleman these days, and the ones who are going to survive are going to be the ones who can adapt to the changing market and who can utilize technology in their favor rather than resisting it and going down kicking and screaming.

Quote:
With myspace and other similar websites, there is no reason to have to rely on downloading to find music. Most labels share mp3's and have downloadable content. Youtube also has a vast worth of music available to listen to. PLUS with a little ingenuity, you can take those tracks on myspace that the bands don't allow you to download and record them straight into your computer for enjoyment later.


Sure, I know that. Like I said, I am not someone who sits home all day adding bands to a queue and downloading whole albums. If something piques my interest I will try and find it, and only download if it's the last resort (or if I feel slighted by labels that don't think I'm worth the effort to market to).

Quote:
Plus, there are these things called magazines which are written by profesional music journalists who cover bands that you and I and others have never really heard of before. I mean, downloading doesn't just affect the artists and labels. it affects just about everyone in the music industry in some way. What will happen to the artists and graphic designers that make the artwork and layouts for albums if downloading takes over the way we purchase and recieve music?


They will find a way to market their skills in a digital environment. Happens all the time. And magazines are also going the way of the dinosaur because, well, places like the Archives, or other well-established webzines that are not simply advertising sheets for the record labels. Very few printed magazines are truly unbiased and objective, they're governed by the labels and businesses that purchase ad space. Pan a CD that a label has invested a lot of promotional dollars in? You will never see their money again. Even happened to me once when reviewing for a website, which is why I won't waste my time writing solicited reviews.

Quote:
To be honest, the fact that you still buy albums that you feel are worth buying is still proof that the physical, tangible format of the almighty album, is still more important to metal fans than anything.


Well of course it is. I still buy CD's sometimes- get this- without even listening to them first! If I like the band's artwork, or the general theme of the artist, hey, it's $15, I'll give it a shot. 75% of the time I am happy, and 25% of the time I get to write an angry, unrestricted review. Works for me, I guess, maybe because I am older and it's just how I grew up, shopping for albums.

Quote:
I know for myself, the album artwork and booklet and all the enjoyment that comes with unwrapping a newly purchased cd or package from some trader in the mail is far more appealing to me than clicking a few buttons on a computer. I am not really worried per say about most metal fans however the current generation of kids growing up, are growing up in a society in which applauds media that are "easy" and "disposable."


I could write another 10,000 word post about this, and I don't disagree with you entirely, but I'm a pragmatist. Whatever will get people listening to my music, so be it. I have no interest in dickering around with a label whose sole purpose is to horn in on my creative process and give me a bum deal while sending me out there with stars in my eyes. I'm not 18 anymore. Downloading allows for a more level playing field between listeners and artists. It challenges us to work harder to get people to spend their money on our products. In an endless sea of crap where anyone can put music online, it makes us work that much more to stand above the tide. And in the end, the power comes to us- not to a label or some middleman that we have to entrust our fate to. The labels know this and they're fucking terrified, so they sic the RIAA on anyone they can, extort money from the people who can afford least to fight the lawsuits, and try and scare people with bullshit predictions of starving musicians and artists being ripped off and boo hoo hoo, and dammit, I just don't like being lied to and manipulated by a bunch of greedy sack-munchers sitting on bajillions of dollars made off the backs of gullible consumers. For the first time since the inception of recorded music, labels have competition, and they don't like it. Fuck them. Evolve or perish.


I would buy a cd from you instead of downloading just because of your attitude on the entire situation :headbang:

Enjoyed that read quite a bit.
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DominicanPhenom
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:12 am
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:08 am 
 

:headbang::headbang::headbang: great post matt frost.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:10 am 
 

I'm glad you quoted all of that The_Count.
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Emperor_Of_Ice
Butterfly Sister Marjoram

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 449
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:12 am 
 

Leify wrote:
Leify wrote:
Scum_Terrorist wrote:
Napoleon wrote:
* Any computer or network hardware used to "facilitate" a copyright crime could be seized by the Justice Department and auctioned off. The proceeds would be funneled to the agency's budget. The process is called civil asset forfeiture, and typically the owner does not need to be found guilty of a crime for his property to be taken.


How the fuck is that even legal? Fucking cocksuckers drunk with power.


It wouldn't hold up in court anyway, assuming you ever got through court proceedings to get to higher courts.


Actually...it'd probably be better just to destroy your property yourself before seizure

Quote:
Contribute to groups that are fighting police confiscation, like ISIL and FEAR.

Image
WHERE DO I APPLY?! :headbang:
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Killinfestation wrote:
Lol what he do? Oh nvm I see now he internet jackface lolol

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:13 am 
 

Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'm glad you quoted all of that The_Count.



Truth be told I did not even realize what I was doing at first because I am running on little to no sleep. I also however care to little to edit it.

It is pretty long tho... Going to put it up next to the infamous long cat drawing and see how close they are.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Emperor_Of_Ice
Butterfly Sister Marjoram

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 449
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:15 am 
 

The_Count wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'm glad you quoted all of that The_Count.



Truth be told I did not even realize what I was doing at first because I am running on little to no sleep. I also however care to little to edit it.

It is pretty long tho... Going to put it up next to the infamous long cat drawing and see how close they are.

Long cat's res is 100 x infinity.
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Master of Engrish:
Killinfestation wrote:
Lol what he do? Oh nvm I see now he internet jackface lolol

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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:17 am 
 

Emperor_Of_Ice wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'm glad you quoted all of that The_Count.



Truth be told I did not even realize what I was doing at first because I am running on little to no sleep. I also however care to little to edit it.

It is pretty long tho... Going to put it up next to the infamous long cat drawing and see how close they are.

Long cat's res is 100 x infinity.


:lol: I so forgot how long this picture is. There really is no competition and I should make myself an hero for even doubting Longcats longness.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Emperor_Of_Ice
Butterfly Sister Marjoram

Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:39 pm
Posts: 449
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:20 am 
 

The_Count wrote:
Emperor_Of_Ice wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'm glad you quoted all of that The_Count.



Truth be told I did not even realize what I was doing at first because I am running on little to no sleep. I also however care to little to edit it.

It is pretty long tho... Going to put it up next to the infamous long cat drawing and see how close they are.

Long cat's res is 100 x infinity.


:lol: I so forgot how long this picture is. There really is no competition and I should make myself an hero for even doubting Longcats longness.

Truly.

Unrelated: I notice several people here use "an" before words beginning with "h". Is this proper? From what I was taught, an was only before words starting with vowels, but given that in British English, H isn't quite as inunciated as American English, perhaps the rules are different? Or is H just an exception?
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Killinfestation wrote:
Lol what he do? Oh nvm I see now he internet jackface lolol

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:24 am 
 

Yes it is perfectly acceptable for words where the h is not enunciated or is silent. Like "an hour". etc.
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wight_ghoul
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:44 pm
Posts: 294
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:37 am 
 

Warning to people who think they're safe if they stay away from top 40 stuff: the lady who got fined big time was sharing, among others:

Opeth
VNV Nation
Chevelle

(article)

My advice is don't use p2p (especially not for major label stuff), and never buy RIAA. Use RIAA radar and think about where your money goes before you make a purchase:

http://www.riaaradar.com/

$1 to the band, $10 to lobbying for laws that fuck you over and lawsuits against Joe Filesharer. You could be next! :shock:

Quote:
"By providing additional resources for enforcement of intellectual property, we ensure that innovation and creativity will continue to prosper in our society," Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers (D-Mich) said in a statement.

:lol: that was the best part. Sickening.

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Thorgrim_Honkronte
Imperius Rexxz

Joined: Sun Jan 16, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts: 2903
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:39 am 
 

wight_ghoul wrote:
Warning to people who think they're safe if they stay away from top 40 stuff: the lady who got fined big time was sharing, among others:

Opeth
VNV Nation
Chevelle


She was probably caught for the top 40 shit, though. Not to say Opeth and VNV Nation and Chevelle aren't popular, however.
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Silencia
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 12:24 pm
Posts: 115
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:04 am 
 

The_Count wrote:
I am however very curious to see how that single mother comes up with the cash for that court case :lol:


The RIAA probably doesn't care too much about the money. It just looks as if they wanted to make an example of her.

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Leify
A Whisper of Death

Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:54 am
Posts: 744
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:57 am 
 

Emperor_Of_Ice wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Emperor_Of_Ice wrote:
The_Count wrote:
Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'm glad you quoted all of that The_Count.



Truth be told I did not even realize what I was doing at first because I am running on little to no sleep. I also however care to little to edit it.

It is pretty long tho... Going to put it up next to the infamous long cat drawing and see how close they are.

Long cat's res is 100 x infinity.


:lol: I so forgot how long this picture is. There really is no competition and I should make myself an hero for even doubting Longcats longness.

Truly.

Unrelated: I notice several people here use "an" before words beginning with "h". Is this proper? From what I was taught, an was only before words starting with vowels, but given that in British English, H isn't quite as inunciated as American English, perhaps the rules are different? Or is H just an exception?


Just checking, you do know 'an hero' is ED talk for suicide right? Whether it's grammatically correct matters little in the context.
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Ash90
The Boy King of All Village Idiots

Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:38 am
Posts: 98
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:51 am 
 

Just because you're not downloading Justin Timberlake or Britney Spears doesn't mean you won't get caught, it's anyone using a P2P program that can be caught. Here's an interesting, yet sort of worrying, fact...

"As of July 2006, the RIAA has brought lawsuits against more than 20,000 people in the United States suspected of distributing copyrighted works, and have settled approximately 2,500 of the cases."

I'd also like to mention that IMO i'd rather the RIAA close the file program than target singular people, also i do believe that they would go more so for the BIG downloaders like, more than 100,000 files or whatever. I believe that woman was just being made an example of...


Last edited by Ash90 on Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The_Count
Village Idiot

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 3:04 pm
Posts: 407
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:54 am 
 

Just do not use p2p programs would be the safest way I would say. So far no one has produced a story where people have been caught using rapidshare or megaupload and that is where all the full albums are to be had anyway.
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Thorgrim_Honkronte wrote:
I'd be more than welcome to take on the jihadists. If they think they are the only ones who know how to make home made bombs and use guns... well they know nothing about redneck America.

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Ash90
The Boy King of All Village Idiots

Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 5:38 am
Posts: 98
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:56 am 
 

I just wish i had more money than i do, i would definitely buy all my albums if that was the case. Deadset, fuck downloading... Although considering i'm about to become a touring musician, i couldn't give a shit if people download our music, just aslong as they come to our shows for "repayment". Like almost every band i've downloaded who's come through my town and i've been able to see, i have. Another point is, just because you download a band's music doesn't mean you're not a true fan or you're not a true music lover, is absolute bullshit. The general reason is money, or therelackof. Like my case, we struggle for money, so i can't go out buying all this shit i need. Yer i'm done now

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