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godsonsafari
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
Posts: 683
Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:43 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
I agree that NATO has outlived its purpose and I have no strong objection to dissolving it (nor to the U.S. leaving it) but I'm not really sure where the rest of that paragraph is coming from...especially given that it's written by someone living in a country that spent four decades living under the delightful auspices of Soviet foreign policy.


I think inhumanist made himself clear with:

it still had the semblance of a justified institution - from the perspective of capitalist self-preservation that is.
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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 8:47 am 
 

Yeah, I'm sure that gave you profound insight into my worldview, allowing you to safely disregard my arguments. :roll:
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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godsonsafari
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
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Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:28 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure that gave you profound insight into my worldview, allowing you to safely disregard my arguments. :roll:


That comment specifically? Not really. In the context of this thread and others though?
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Strutta
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:26 pm
Posts: 48
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:40 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
There is no reason why they wouldn't want to make Ukraine join the NATO sooner or later. The continuous east-expansion of the NATO is enough of a clue I think. All contrary promises made by the west towards post-soviet Russia already turned out to be diplomatic lies. Little wonder Russia is no longer willing to sit back and let it happen.


NATO is essentially a meaningless fiction. It is so thoroughly a creature of the United States that the other members don't count in any significant sense, and NATO's only real function is to provide domestic political cover for US adventures overseas. Consequently, it really doesn't matter what countries are in or out of NATO.

On a totally unrelated note, I love, love, love this map that I pulled off CentCom's website, the world according to the US military:

Spoiler: show
Image

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:47 am 
 

Argue this point:

Quote:
At least during the cold war it still had the semblance of a justified institution - from the perspective of capitalist self-preservation that is.


Everything else in your argument---Balkans, Afghanistan, humanitarian interventions---specifically and obviously pertained to post-Berlin Wall NATO. I'm curious how you reconcile that line of reasoning with the facts of the Cold War time, when the alternative to "capitalist self-preservation" was systemic repression and torture, and when the practitioners of that system actively and often violently sought to export their system by undermining NATO countries.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:53 am 
 

You don't have to convince me that the Soviet system wasn't kosher. I never claimed otherwise. But can you also show me how the NATO actually ever improved the situation for populaces threatened by Soviet "revolutionary" agendas? If so I'll retract that statement.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Strutta
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:26 pm
Posts: 48
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:57 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
You don't have to convince me that the Soviet system wasn't kosher. I never claimed otherwise. But can you also show me how the NATO actually ever improved the situation for populaces threatened by Soviet "revolutionary" agendas? If so I'll retract that statement.


Sometimes "preservation" is as good as "improvement." The NATO alliance kept Western Europe Bolshevik-free for long enough that the mortal wound inflicted upon the Soviet Union by the last great man in the West had time to fester and finish off the beast.

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godsonsafari
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
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Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:13 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
You don't have to convince me that the Soviet system wasn't kosher. I never claimed otherwise. But can you also show me how the NATO actually ever improved the situation for populaces threatened by Soviet "revolutionary" agendas? If so I'll retract that statement.


Can I? Probably not because this is the internet and my sense is you've made your mind up already. There's a limit to how much energy I'm going to use arguing about whether or not anyone ended up better off in Bosnia (or with regards to the general defense of Western Europe during the Cold War, for that matter), and that limit gets lower and lower as I age.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:30 am 
 

Then why do you bother replying at all? To prove your rhetoric chops? :???:

Look, I know you think I'm full of shit and I admit I don't always respect the rules of fair, honest debate as much as I should, but let's try to keep this on topic and not delve into matters of your old age and other ad hominem bullshit, okay?
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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godsonsafari
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Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 1:03 am
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Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:39 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Then why do you bother replying at all?


That's a good question.

Quote:
Look, I know you think I'm full of shit and I admit I don't always respect the rules of fair, honest debate as much as I should, but let's try to keep this on topic and not delve into matters of your old age and other ad hominem bullshit, okay?


:lol:

First, I want you to read that sentence you wrote in an un-ironic tone. Second: There's no gun to your head making you post about NATO's role in the Cold War. If you think there is, maybe reach out and bat at it. See if there's any physical contact made.
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tomcat_ha
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:01 pm 
 

in the west the gun pointed to your head is a much subtle one than a actual Beretta.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:08 pm 
 

C'mon, guys. Major developments have gone down and you're letting this particular derailment get the better of you.
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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 11:01 pm 
 

On that note, today Crimean officials said they will forcibly relocate the Tatar minority to a different part of Crimea (though I think the Tatars were technically already breaking Ukrainian law). There have been a few small-arms incidents between Russian/Crimean forces and the remaining Ukrainian forces. Ukraine's prime minister says the crisis is no longer a political one but rather a military one. A Duma official says Russia will claim half of Ukraine's navy as part of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, including that submarine I mentioned earlier.


http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140318/188546 ... maker.html
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:51 am 
 

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder;
Quote:
"the European Union is responsible for the situation in Ukraine's Crimea"

(comments on Sunday in Hamburg during a press event)

Really how did people think Russia was going to react with other super powers (one rising) right on its door step - how would America react if Alaska sought to become an independent state, let alone seeking to join another sphere of influence? (yes I know America bought Alaska and Crimea is/was a semiautonomous territory under Ukrainian control, my point is proximity).
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godsonsafari
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Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:15 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
On that note, today Crimean officials said they will forcibly relocate the Tatar minority to a different part of Crimea (though I think the Tatars were technically already breaking Ukrainian law). There have been a few small-arms incidents between Russian/Crimean forces and the remaining Ukrainian forces. Ukraine's prime minister says the crisis is no longer a political one but rather a military one. A Duma official says Russia will claim half of Ukraine's navy as part of the Russian Black Sea Fleet, including that submarine I mentioned earlier.


http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140318/188546 ... maker.html



But...but...Mindshadow said that wouldn't happen! Must be a made up Western story. :lol:
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:19 am 
 

godsonsafari wrote:

But...but...Mindshadow said that wouldn't happen! Must be a made up Western story. :lol:


What I said was;


mindshadow wrote:
Relating to whether Crimean Tatars would again be deported;

Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR (1967)

withdrawing the accusations against the Crimean Tatar population and clearing them of charges of collaboration

The Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees to:
Annul the section of the relevant decisions of State organs which contains indiscriminate accusations with respect to citizens of Tatar nationality who lived in the Crimea.

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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:31 am 
 

mindshadow wrote:
godsonsafari wrote:

But...but...Mindshadow said that wouldn't happen! Must be a made up Western story. :lol:


What I said was;


mindshadow wrote:
Relating to whether Crimean Tatars would again be deported;

Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR (1967)

withdrawing the accusations against the Crimean Tatar population and clearing them of charges of collaboration

The Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees to:
Annul the section of the relevant decisions of State organs which contains indiscriminate accusations with respect to citizens of Tatar nationality who lived in the Crimea.



So, you're saying it had some alternate relevancy to that topic? Lemme guess: you need to hand hold us, and you don't want to take the bait. None of what is happening wasn't entirely predictable.
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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:09 am 
 

godsonsafari wrote:
So, you're saying it had some alternate relevancy to that topic? Lemme guess: you need to hand hold us, and you don't want to take the bait. None of what is happening wasn't entirely predictable.


The key words from my post are "relating to".
Russia will always act how Russia see's fit, with hindsight what is happening was probably quite predictable. Russia and the "west" are two entirely different beasts, and one expecting the other to act as they govern, or are governed, is always going to result in contention.

Can what's happening in Crimea be compared to the plight of people from a Japanese heritage who were placed in "Relocation Camps" in the US during WWII? (It is practically a war situation now in the east).


I'm well aware of your penchant for trying to ridicule my posts, so please don't be surprised when I mildly retaliate - I'm only human after all :-P
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godsonsafari
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Location: Sparty's Land Grant University, USA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:00 pm 
 

Quote:
The key words from my post are "relating to".


Oh, well, that clears it up.

Quote:
Can what's happening in Crimea be compared to the plight of people from a Japanese heritage who were placed in "Relocation Camps" in the US during WWII? (It is practically a war situation now in the east).


Yeah, probably. That was horrible and wrong too. Good thing the US no longer does things like force mass groups of people into concentration camps when involved in conflict with them. Too bad Russia still does.
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Strutta
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Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:26 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:57 pm 
 

godsonsafari wrote:
[

Yeah, probably. That was horrible and wrong too.


Prove that it was, "horrible and wrong," using only facts and no recourse to moral presuppositions.

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:54 pm 
 

Treating hundreds of thousands of people like they are the enemy purely because they are from the same ethnicity as a recent enemy state engenders the kind of grievances that actually cause people to betray their country, or commit terrorist attacks. It is wholly counterproductive, not to mention paranoid in the extreme.
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conquer__all wrote:
I personally hate when breeders bring their fuck trophies were their not wanted. Once this low life couple brought their bastard to a rated "R" movie and it cried the whole time, I was like what the fuck is this shit I paid twelve bucks for this?!

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Strutta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:07 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Treating hundreds of thousands of people like they are the enemy purely because they are from the same ethnicity as a recent enemy state engenders the kind of grievances that actually cause people to betray their country, or commit terrorist attacks.


Or, you know, could prevent them. You're providing speculation, not facts.

Quote:
It is wholly counterproductive


You might want to think about actually demonstrating that, instead of just stating it as if it were axiomatic.

Quote:
not to mention paranoid in the extreme.


*shrug* Paranoids have enemies, too.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:25 pm 
 

This is pointless. You could just provide some factual arguments yourself if you think that move might have been justified. Because if there are no pragmatic pro- or counterarguments there is still the fundamental counterargument that it is (or seems very strongly like) ethnical discrimination. Pointing out that Russia might have a good reason to do something that seems morally counterintuitive is not a good argument for anything.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:42 pm 
 

A few hundred years of counterintelligence work (predating the U.S. itself) tells us it is axiomatic, not speculation. We know exactly what things motivate most traitors and terrorists.

The Office of Naval Intelligence (the "Ringle Report") concluded that before the internment even began, about 95% of all legitimate Japanese-American traitors were already in federal custody. The remaining traitors were being watched while the government built their criminal case against them. The other 109,700 "Japanese" people (some were less than 10% Japanese) were imprisoned after the ONI, FBI and FCC had already cleared them of wrongdoing.
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conquer__all wrote:
I personally hate when breeders bring their fuck trophies were their not wanted. Once this low life couple brought their bastard to a rated "R" movie and it cried the whole time, I was like what the fuck is this shit I paid twelve bucks for this?!

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Strutta
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Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:26 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:50 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
This is pointless.


Any exercise is pointless if you don't take the time to learn what the point might be. I'm just asking you to think beyond good and evil, so to speak. The discussion had drifted out of the realm of reality into the realm of fantasy (morality), and I thought I'd bring that to your attention. Perhaps I overestimated the ability of folks here to understand a point expressed obliquely rather than directly.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:55 pm 
 

If morality is fantasy, on what basis are you arguing for or against anything? This is not a rhetorical question.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Strutta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:07 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
A few hundred years of counterintelligence work (predating the U.S. itself) tells us it is axiomatic, not speculation. We know exactly what things motivate most traitors and terrorists.


Yeah, and those motives have primarily been "money" or "ideology."

But since you mention history, the actual history of actual concentration camps—from the reservations to the British camp system in the Boer War to the Gulag to the Nazi camp system—suggests that such methods are pretty much entirely successful at preventing internees from engaging in any resistance whatsoever.

Quote:
The Office of Naval Intelligence (the "Ringle Report") concluded that before the internment even began, about 95% of all legitimate Japanese-American traitors were already in federal custody. The remaining traitors were being watched while the government built their criminal case against them. The other 109,700 "Japanese" people (some were less than 10% Japanese) were imprisoned after the ONI, FBI and FCC had already cleared them of wrongdoing.


An argument can certainly be made that the internment was unnecessary, but that's not the case that has been advanced. Instead, the argument made was that the actions undertaken by the US government were "horrible" and "wrong," which is a different kettle of fish.

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Strutta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:08 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
If morality is fantasy, on what basis are you arguing for or against anything? This is not a rhetorical question.


I'm arguing for living in reality, and leaving the morality tales to the fantasists.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:12 pm 
 

Way to not answer the question.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Strutta
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Joined: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:26 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:13 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Way to not answer the question.


Way to not understand the answer. Work harder. Live a little. Have some experiences. Then get back to me.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:14 pm 
 

Fuck off.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Strutta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:17 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Fuck off.


Or, you know, be a petulant child. It's all the same to me.

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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:03 pm 
 

Quote:
Prove that it was, "horrible and wrong," using only facts and no recourse to moral presuppositions.


99% of the responses I think of when I see this involve unoriginal photo memes, which leads me to believe they aren't responses worth posting. The fact that we got here tells me its time to leave this thread alone. You all have fun in the crazy person sandbox rationalizing horrors and shit.
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Strutta
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:13 pm 
 

I'm not 'rationalizing' anything. I'm asking you to advance an argument that doesn't amount to demanding that your subjective moral beliefs be imposed upon others. If that's more than you can manage, perhaps you need to rethink your beliefs, maybe, you know, base them in reality and stuff.

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:35 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Fuck off.


I thought you were intelligent but it's obvious you and a few others here need to go out in the big wide world, instead of burying your head in books, and books probably chosen for you by others.


godsonsafari wrote:
99% of the responses I think of when I see this involve unoriginal photo memes, which leads me to believe they aren't responses worth posting. The fact that we got here tells me its time to leave this thread alone. You all have fun in the crazy person sandbox rationalizing horrors and shit.



You're a complete mystery to me.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:01 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
Fuck off.


I thought you were intelligent but it's obvious you and a few others here need to go out in the big wide world, instead of burying your head in books, and books probably chosen for you by others.

I don't know what's it to you because I wasn't adressing you at all. If you don't realize why Strutta had that response coming (it had zero to do with the thread's topic and the stances taken in it) then maybe you should heed your own advise.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:13 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
I don't know what's it to you because I wasn't adressing you at all. If you don't realize why Strutta had that response coming (it had zero to do with the thread's topic) then maybe you should heed your own advise.


I know. It's just that I think you're highly intelligent but your age shows sometimes, and makes you prone to "outbursts". Just when I think you understand the big picture, and why things are like they are, you go and ruin it by getting all moralistic - the world doesn't work that way, unfortunately.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:00 pm 
 

@mindshadow: What do you mean by "moralistic"? It certainly wasn't me who started the argument about moral principles. Read my initial post again and you'll find that I merely mentioned moral intuition, which is hardly farfetched considering the discussion was revolving around ethnic discrimination, but it definitely wasn't my intent to go deeper into the matter. I could as well have called it "the de facto aversion most people have against certain behaviours such as ethnic discrimination", which, while rather clunky, means the exact same thing but would have spared us the tiresome derailment. But because I called it "moral" it provoked a nihilistic kneejerk response and unfortunately I took the bait.

The reason for my "outburst" is simply that there is only so much condescending bullcrap I can tolerate. Perhaps someone "more mature" would have shrugged it off without resorting to profanity, but as some would put it, the "sound" of the language is far less important than the "spirit" behind it; sure, I could have cooked up some witty, biting reply implying things about mental age and whatnot using not a single potty-word, but seriously, screw that. It would have been a total waste of time* considering my exact sentiment could be expressed with only two words.

*The irony being that I had to write this piece now to explain myself. For using profanity. In a metal forum.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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iamntbatman
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:30 pm 
 

Strutta wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
Fuck off.


Or, you know, be a petulant child. It's all the same to me.


Here, let me reiterate inhumanist's point for you.
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severzhavnost
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:48 pm 
 

Amazing how the thread got completely derailed. Looking back, it went south when Earthcubed said the Crimean authorities are planning to remove the Tatars. But the link you posted made no mention of the Tatars at all! What I found about the Tatars is this: http://en.ria.ru/world/20140319/1885447 ... icial.html

Here it says those Tatars who will be relocated are squatters. People who returned from exile at the end of the Soviet era but have been unable to reclaim the same land because there are now Russians there. So they're essentially homeless, and fir 20 years now the Ukrainian government has failed to resolve this housing issue. Not fully enfranchised citizens being uprooted! So the whole sideshow argument about concentration camps came out of nowhere!
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bassistneededlolnot wrote:
I tried to think of another good pun on the topic, but I'm stumped.

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