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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:44 am 
 

dystopia4 wrote:
Although I certainly don't agree with how Russia is acting, I think Crimea eventually joining Russia is somewhat inevitable given the historical context and the fact that a majority of people there are ethnically Russian and would favour being annexed. Also, I somewhat suspect the reason the West is making such a big fuss about it is that the new Ukrainian leader is pro-Western. Nevertheless, they shouldn't have just brought their army into a foreign country like that - that is a clear violation of Ukranian sovereignty. However, if Crimea votes in the referendum to join Russia then I think they should have every right to do so.


Only problem is that Crimea, as a Ukrainian region, can not vote itself out of the Ukraine. The entirety of the Ukraine has to take part in a referendum. It also seems like the decision has already been made by the Crimea pro-russian leadership without asking the people, because they know that the legal way, a nation wide referendum, wouldn't work. In this case most of the people living in the region are (probably, we don't really know without a referendum) in favor of the annexation, but I think any upcoming referendum will be tainted by the way Russia and the pro-russian Crimea government are behaving right now. What I think will happen is that Crimea will have a referendum, it will be made legal somehow, (or just condoned by the european union) and Crimea will return to being Russian. Because a: Putin is not going to leave without this happening, and b: Moneys. It's probably what the Crimean people want, but we won't be sure because of the way it's going down right now.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:40 am 
 

Relating to whether Crimean Tatars would again be deported;



Decree of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR (1967)

withdrawing the accusations against the Crimean Tatar population and clearing them of charges of collaboration

The Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees to:
Annul the section of the relevant decisions of State organs which contains indiscriminate accusations with respect to citizens of Tatar nationality who lived in the Crimea.



The only thing that saved Russia from total defeat in WWII was that their enemy mis-judged the weather;

Quote:
The Stalin regime began planning the deportation of the entire Crimean Tatar population to special settlements in Uzbekistan immediately after the retreat of the German Wehrmacht from the Crimea. On 11 May 1944, the Soviet army recaptured the last pockets of the peninsula. The very same day the GKO (State Defense Committee) issued resolution 5859ss, “On Crimean Tatars” signed by Joseph Stalin.[8] This decree accused the Crimean Tatars of massive collaboration with the German occupiers of the Crimea and collective treason against the USSR.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Evil_Johnny_666
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Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:54 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:53 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
dystopia4 wrote:
Although I certainly don't agree with how Russia is acting, I think Crimea eventually joining Russia is somewhat inevitable given the historical context and the fact that a majority of people there are ethnically Russian and would favour being annexed. Also, I somewhat suspect the reason the West is making such a big fuss about it is that the new Ukrainian leader is pro-Western. Nevertheless, they shouldn't have just brought their army into a foreign country like that - that is a clear violation of Ukranian sovereignty. However, if Crimea votes in the referendum to join Russia then I think they should have every right to do so.


Only problem is that Crimea, as a Ukrainian region, can not vote itself out of the Ukraine. The entirety of the Ukraine has to take part in a referendum. It also seems like the decision has already been made by the Crimea pro-russian leadership without asking the people, because they know that the legal way, a nation wide referendum, wouldn't work. In this case most of the people living in the region are (probably, we don't really know without a referendum) in favor of the annexation, but I think any upcoming referendum will be tainted by the way Russia and the pro-russian Crimea government are behaving right now. What I think will happen is that Crimea will have a referendum, it will be made legal somehow, (or just condoned by the european union) and Crimea will return to being Russian. Because a: Putin is not going to leave without this happening, and b: Moneys. It's probably what the Crimean people want, but we won't be sure because of the way it's going down right now.


I'm really hearing different things. Some say the Crimean want to be back in Russia and others, it's the contrary. There's a difference in being pro-Russia and wanting to be annexed back. And there's a difference between being ethnically Russian and wanting or not to be Russian. You know, the Hong Kong people are ethnically Chinese yet they massively migrated out, in a big proportion to Canada, because they didn't want to be annexed back to China. Most Ukrainians also speak russian and the russian-speaking Ukrainians apparently don't feel intimidated by the ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians who have no trouble speaking russian to them.

Of course it's very hard to judge the situation from an outside view, but I don't think it's as easy as ''most Crimean want to go back to Russia anyway''.

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Strutta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:30 am 
 

Quote:
The only thing that saved Russia from total defeat in WWII was that their enemy mis-judged the weather;


Horseshit. People always act like somehow the weather only happened to the Wehrmacht, as if the Soviets advanced through smiles and sunshine. The Soviets were saved from total defeat by a people and a leadership unafraid to shrink from sacrifice on a scale never seen in history before or since, combined with a (surprisingly rare) strategic mistake on Hitler's part (the decision to declare war on the United States). The Second World War was decided by two primary factors: Russian blood and American treasure.

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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:40 am 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Only problem is that Crimea, as a Ukrainian region, can not vote itself out of the Ukraine. The entirety of the Ukraine has to take part in a referendum.

Someone should tell Quebec about this logic. :-P

Found this interesting:
http://time.com/16708/watch-timeline-of ... in-crimea/
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:44 am 
 

Horseshit. People always act like somehow the weather only happened to the Wehrmacht, as if the Soviets advanced through smiles and sunshine. The Soviets were saved from total defeat by a people and a leadership unafraid to shrink from sacrifice on a scale never seen in history before or since, combined with a (surprisingly rare) strategic mistake on Hitler's part (the decision to declare war on the United States).



The invading army was literally bogged down, many died especially as
they weren't supplied with proper winter clothing.
The Nazi war machine was far superior to the Russians who were very behind in technology. The weather bought the Russians time. At one point they pulled all the way back to the Ural mountains to build armaments.
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Strutta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:12 pm 
 

mindshadow wrote:
The invading army was literally bogged down, many died especially as they weren't supplied with proper winter clothing.


The Wehrmacht was in most senses better prepared for the cold than the Russians were, particularly in the early years of the war, when the final result still actually hung in the balance. You have to understand that the pre-war Red Army had been essentially exterminated by October of 1941. The hastily raised replacement force was woefully under-equipped. It was 1943 or so before most soldiers in the Red Army could count on being issued more than a uniform jacket (much less military cold weather gear). German difficulties in supplying cold weather garb in 1941 were more an issue of logistics than anything else, as the armored spearheads repeatedly outran their lines of supply. Besides, the winter fighting in 1941/42 wasn't nearly as intense as has generally been assumed, and German casualties were dramatically lower during the winter fighting than they had been in the period June-August.

Basically, to the extent that weather really was an impediment to the armies of the German-Soviet War, it was the mud of the fall rains and the spring thaw combined with the terribly undeveloped Soviet transport infrastructure.

Quote:
The Nazi war machine was far superior to the Russians who were very behind in technology.


The only real "technological" advantages enjoyed by the Germans during the early stages of the war were a (relatively speaking) much larger motor pool and a better and more extensive radio net. What the Reich possessed—and it maintained this advantage basically right up until the surrender—was an army that was much better trained and led at all levels than their opponents. The Germans were able to put in the field an army with better generals, better field officers, vastly superior junior leaders (company grade officers and NCOs) and, man-for-man, better soldiers, just as they had done in the 1914-18 war, and the Wars of Unification under Bismarck and the elder von Moltke. Napoleon's maxim about the moral and the material is quite relevant, here.

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OneSizeFitzpatrick
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:52 pm 
 

Slightly off topic but you'd think what with all these "alleged" Russian divisions over in Ukraine that this would be an opportune moment for that Caucasus Emirate to blow something up in Dagestan.. Unless, Putin paid them off (again).
Also, if Putin does decide to start treating the Tatars like second class shit (which I have no doubt he'll try everything in his power to do so, he's stated more than once that Muslims have no place in his Russia) that'll only give more power to Islamic groups in the Caucasus to rally around the cause and fight off the Imperialists again.
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Strutta
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:52 pm 
 

Yeah, they fought those imperialists off real good like.

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elf48687789
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:54 pm 
 

Armed groups in Crimea opened fire from automatic weapons against a Ukrainian border patrol airplane:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unian.net%2Fpolitics%2F894488-ukrainskiy-pogranichnyiy-samolet-so-storonyi-kryima-obstrelyali-iz-avtomaticheskogo-orujiya.html

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:22 pm 
 

Strutta wrote:
The Wehrmacht was in most senses better prepared for the cold than the Russians were, particularly in the early years of the war, when the final result still actually hung in the balance. You have to understand that the pre-war Red Army had been essentially exterminated by October of 1941. The hastily raised replacement force was woefully under-equipped. It was 1943 or so before most garb in 1941 were more an issue of logistics than anything else, as the armored spearheads repeatedly outran their lines of supply. Besides, the winter fighting in 1941/42 wasn't nearly as intense as has generally been assumed, and German casualties were dramatically lower during the winter fighting than they had been in the period June-August.

The only real "technological" advantages enjoyed by the Germans during the early stages of the war were a (relatively speaking) much larger motor pool and a better and more extensive radio net. What the Reich possessed—and it maintained ained and led at all levels than their opponents. The Germans were able to put in the field an lnd the Wars of Unification under Bismarck and the elder von Moltke. Napoleon's maxim about the moral and the material is quite relevant, here.


Germany was much more advanced militarily. Thousands died of cold as they weren't issued with padded jackets, like Napoleon in 1812 they were ill prepared.
Also please realise that Russias best troops were almost the other end of the country in case of a surprise attack by the Japanese - they were tied up until they were sure there wasn't going to be an invasion. I'd like to address many points in your posts but can only use my phone at present.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:06 pm 
 

Strutta wrote:
ww2 stuff


Good to see someone else with vast ww2 knowledge. :)

mindshadow wrote:
the invincible invincible wehrmacht/russian army myth



Yeah the germans were sure more advanced with their equipment. The superior K98k over the SVT40, the Panzer 3 over the T34 and the MP40 over the PPSH41.

The russians were the first army to inflict significant casualties against the germans. There were many engagements in from the start of the barbarossa campaign onwards where axis divisions ended up being depleted strength wise. The huge Russian losses at the start of the war were actually mostly caused by 3 factors. Inferior mid-high level strategic thinking and tactical skills, inferior training and the lack of radios in tanks.

Go watch this thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Clz27nghIg

OneSizeFitzpatrick wrote:
Also, if Putin does decide to start treating the Tatars like second class shit (which I have no doubt he'll try everything in his power to do so, he's stated more than once that Muslims have no place in his Russia) that'll only give more power to Islamic groups in the Caucasus to rally around the cause and fight off the Imperialists again.


Has he? Considering there are a lot of republics in the russian federation like Tatarstan with muslim majority where live just has gone on without real interruption and infact muslim and tartar culture has one could say almost flourished since the fall of the soviet union i doubt it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _turcs.png

This map shows areas where there is a turkic majority. There are many other areas in russia with a significant (historical) presence of turkic people whom as we know are mostly muslim. If Putin really went hardline anti muslim/turkic he would have faced significant unrest in those areas.

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:19 pm 
 

Russian forces are apparently laying landmines along the Ukraine-Crimea border.

Quote:
Meanwhile, an investigative Russian newspaper published photographs of lines of landmines being laid near the second entry point to the peninsula close to the villages of Chongar and Nikolaevka.



Poland's decision last year to pivot to traditional homeland defense (as opposed to overseas counter-terrorism) looks especially prescient right now.
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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:15 am 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
Quote:
Meanwhile, an investigative Russian newspaper published photographs of lines of landmines being laid near the second entry point to the peninsula close to the villages of Chongar and Nikolaevka.



Pics or didn't happen
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Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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Bezerko
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 12:28 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
Yeah the germans were sure more advanced with their equipment. The superior K98k over the SVT40, the Panzer 3 over the T34 and the MP40 over the PPSH41.


Well that's a bit silly. You may as well say the superior SVT40 over the STG44, the T34/76 over the Panther and the PPSH41 over... well okay that last doesn't matter since the Germans moved to the assault rifle.

Regardless, internet wars over WW2 never end well, there's a million different interpretations over how the war was fought, etc (some well researched others not) and there often seems to be these strange biases to one force over another. Not to mention how/why the Red Army triumphed in WW2 is irrelevant to this thread.

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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:08 am 
 

http://abcnews.go.com/m/blogEntry?id=22 ... -1%26sk%3D

Aw crap. Come on guys! If returning to Russia is truly the people's will of Crimea, which I still think it is, then why not let the monitors in to watch the referendum? What do you have to hide? :nono: This doesn't mean the West are suddenly the good guys, not by a longshot, but now the Russians have also lost the moral high ground. Sad. It's now just a cynical political puppet war from both sides.
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Evil_Johnny_666
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:03 am 
 

I think it's pretty hazardous to put any intent on the people of Crimea, particularly when there's such propaganda and manipulation from all parties involved. Unless we personally know Crimean people who can enlighten us on the situation, I don't think we can talk too much about this. They may be mostly ethnic Russians, but that doesn't say much at all about their national feelings.

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elf48687789
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:10 pm 
 

This the whole world needs to see, it shows how pro-Russian demonstrators in Harkov on the 1st of March have taken prisoner a bunch of kids, whom they accuse of being fascist. Even though they themselves took this film I think, it shows the cruelty of the people who support Russia:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa63IjsaWIk

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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:58 pm 
 

elf48687789 wrote:
This the whole world needs to see, it shows how pro-Russian demonstrators in Harkov on the 1st of March have taken prisoner a bunch of kids, whom they accuse of being fascist. Even though they themselves took this film I think, it shows the cruelty of the people who support Russia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa63IjsaWIk


A few Russian-supporters beat a few people (that could be Ukrainian ultra-nationalists, btw, as you like conjectures) and you start a rally agains the cruelty of the people who support Russia?
If the majority in Crimea wants to be part of Russia, if the majority in Crimea wants the Ukrainian ultra-nationalists out or whatever, give them it! No one went mad after the Ukrainian right-wing hooligans attacked the government buildings in Kiev, because the it seems the majority of Ukrainians would prefer to see their economy drained by the EU than to be a Russian puppet State.
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Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 2:50 pm 
 

Yayattasa wrote:
Pics or didn't happen


I don't remember if it was there yesterday but that link has one picture. Here's a link to the photographer's set: http://mashable.com/2014/03/08/ukraine-russia-crimea/


Note he says the Russian soldiers (or perhaps "Russian" soldiers) specifically told him to be careful because they had laid mines down.
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MonumentalBlackArt
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 3:37 pm 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
http://abcnews.go.com/m/blogEntry?id=22822205&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dinternational%2Bmonitors%2Bcrimea%26form%3DQBLH%26pc%3DAPPM%26pq%3Dinternational%2Bmonitors%2Bcrimea%26sc%3D5-20%26sp%3D-1%26sk%3D

Aw crap. Come on guys! If returning to Russia is truly the people's will of Crimea, which I still think it is, then why not let the monitors in to watch the referendum? What do you have to hide? :nono: This doesn't mean the West are suddenly the good guys, not by a longshot, but now the Russians have also lost the moral high ground. Sad. It's now just a cynical political puppet war from both sides.


I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but what makes you think that Russia had the moral high ground in the first place? Russia deployed soldiers in the Ukraine without permission, violating the country's sovereignty. Of course, they claim to be protecting ethnic Russians, but let's not kid ourselves. They don't give a shit about the people (I'm not saying that Russia is the only country like that, my country is the same way), they care about their own economic interests and military strength. They also reportedly had agents kidnap and torture Ukrainian political activists that were pro EU. I'm well aware of bias in the media, believe me, but it seems to me that Russia is acting the least morally here.

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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:09 pm 
 

MonumentalBlackArt wrote:

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but what makes you think that Russia had the moral high ground in the first place? Russia deployed soldiers in the Ukraine without permission, violating the country's sovereignty. Of course, they claim to be protecting ethnic Russians, but let's not kid ourselves. They don't give a shit about the people (I'm not saying that Russia is the only country like that, my country is the same way), they care about their own economic interests and military strength. They also reportedly had agents kidnap and torture Ukrainian political activists that were pro EU. I'm well aware of bias in the media, believe me, but it seems to me that Russia is acting the least morally here.


Have you been paying attention to this thread? Like, honestly.
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MonumentalBlackArt
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:21 pm 
 

godsonsafari wrote:
Have you been paying attention to this thread? Like, honestly.


Do you have anything to contribute, or are you just going to be a passive-aggressive little bitch? Like, honestly.

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:43 pm 
 

He is fundamentally in agreement with you. The subtext of his post is that quite a few posters in this thread aren't. You know the type, the "my country/the West is always wrong/hypocritical" crowd. They're not completely wrong in this case or many other cases, mind you. I just find that clique's internal contradictions amusing.



From an American perspective I think the best course of action is "deescalating" the situation while simultaneously nudging NATO members to recommit to their alliance obligations (a lot of them are essentially free-riding on the U.S.). What's interesting (and maybe a wee bit scary) is that the collective interests of NATO in this case arguably don't dovetail very well with many (most?) of the individual nations' own interests. There's little chance of this happening but if a full-scale conventional war between Russia and some NATO countries were to break out right now I could easily see a few members leaving the alliance.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:48 pm 
 

MonumentalBlackArt: that is the first I've heard about kidnapping and torture. But with the recent and intensifying sealing-off of Crimea, I'll concede they could be hiding such actions in there.

To answer your question, I originally thought Russia was behaving better than the West for many reasons. They're allowed to have troops in Crimea, as per the 1997 agreement with Ukraine. It was the West, not Russia, who hijacked some legitimate popular dissent by hand-picking the new PM according to their benefit. It was the West, not Russia, who turned a blind eye to the new government containing neo-nazis and banning minority language rights. And it was the EU's bailout that was contingent on internal reforms, thus infringing on Ukrainian sovereignty, whereas the Russian deal would have left internal affairs untouched. There's also questions raised by the Estonian Foreign Minister about whether the snipers in Kiev were really working for the pro-Russian Yanukovych, or were unaligned extremists that the new regime conveniently blamed on Russia afterward.

Now though, the secrecy going up around Crimea, the possible landmining and crackdown on pro-Ukrainian dissent... like I said, I can't say Russia are the good guys any more.
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:47 pm 
 

I remember reading that the proposed EU agreement also contained a clause stating NATO had the right to position forces inside Ukraine in certain situations. If that is true (and I can't find where I read it) then the EU negotiators should have seen in advance what a provocative overreach that was.
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MonumentalBlackArt
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:57 pm 
 

Yes, Russia had an agreement with the previous government, but it was wrong to assume that the new one would continue the agreement. Additionally, the troops bore no markings, and Russia refused to acknowledge that they were their troops for several days. Of course the West influenced the selection of PM, but Russia certainly tried to. Russia isn't "not turning a blind eye" to the neo-nazis in the government. That doesn't matter to them. It's just an excuse to get involved. Or maybe they really do care, but just don't know about the Golden Dawn... As for the EU bailout vs Russian bailout, it was either be the EU's bitch, or Russia's. Choosing the EU's deal would have required internal change, but if the government agreed on it, it wouldn't be an infringement on their sovereignty.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:37 pm 
 

Of course they don't care. Russia is part of the capitalist system after all. They care about capital.

MonumentalBlackArt wrote:
Yes, Russia had an agreement with the previous government, but it was wrong to assume that the new one would continue the agreement.

The new government is an illegitimate coup government.

I don't know the details of the treaty, only that it allows 25000 Russian troops in Crimea and that their operations have to be coordinated with the Ukrainian government. Since that is no longer an option I figure that the Crimean government is actually the next best thing to a legitimate Ukrainian authority when it comes to decisions regarding Crimea. Of course whether it is an infringement of Ukrainian sovereignity or not lies in the legal details, not in my limited judgement. But it seems much more ambiguous than the official narrative would have you believe.

Gotta love the hypocrisy of leaders of such countries as the U.S. and Britain babbling about respecting national sovereignity though.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:01 pm 
 

Bezerko wrote:
Well that's a bit silly.


The point was made earlier that the germans were significantly more advanced when it came to equipment at the start of the war. My point was they weren't at all.

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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:29 pm 
 

Watching the World at War series I always thought they were very advanced, but reading about the T-34 you have a point, it was known as possibly the best tank of WWII, easy to drive and many women manned them (hope that doesn't sound disrespectful or beliitle Russian women who were fearless driving them).
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MonumentalBlackArt
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:37 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
MonumentalBlackArt wrote:
Yes, Russia had an agreement with the previous government, but it was wrong to assume that the new one would continue the agreement.

The new government is an illegitimate coup government.


I'm sorry, but I don't get your reasoning here. There was a revolution, and a new government was created, just like countless other times before. What makes Ukraine's government less legitimate than Russia's, the United States's, France's, etc. all of which have had at least one revolution?

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:57 am 
 

Uhm, the opposition movement forced a democratically elected government into early resignation and replaced it with a bunch of non-democratically elected figures of questionable popular support?

Also I would hardly call this a revolution. This was merely a revolt resulting in a regime change.

Interesting:
Ukraine signs $10 billion shale gas deal with Chevron
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:53 am 
 

^Didn't a similar thing happen to Greece as part of the terms for their bailout?
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elf48687789
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:35 am 
 

severzhavnost wrote:
MonumentalBlackArt: that is the first I've heard about kidnapping and torture. But with the recent and intensifying sealing-off of Crimea, I'll concede they could be hiding such actions in there.

To answer your question, I originally thought Russia was behaving better than the West for many reasons. They're allowed to have troops in Crimea, as per the 1997 agreement with Ukraine. It was the West, not Russia, who hijacked some legitimate popular dissent by hand-picking the new PM according to their benefit. It was the West, not Russia, who turned a blind eye to the new government containing neo-nazis and banning minority language rights. And it was the EU's bailout that was contingent on internal reforms, thus infringing on Ukrainian sovereignty, whereas the Russian deal would have left internal affairs untouched. There's also questions raised by the Estonian Foreign Minister about whether the snipers in Kiev were really working for the pro-Russian Yanukovych, or were unaligned extremists that the new regime conveniently blamed on Russia afterward.

Now though, the secrecy going up around Crimea, the possible landmining and crackdown on pro-Ukrainian dissent... like I said, I can't say Russia are the good guys any more.

1. The kidnappings and tortures were done during the protests while Yanukovich was still president. A couple of the demonstrators against Yanukovich dissappeared. At least one (as far as I remember) turned up alive, but he was badly beaten and probably left for dead in a forest. It is not really known who was the author of these crimes.

2. Russia was allowed a certain number of troops, and were not allowed to carry weapons when not on their own base.

3. The extreme right wing doesn't not have any members in the Ukrainian parliament or government, they just participated in the demonstrations. There was indeed talk about one member getting in the government, but it didn't happen.

4. The Estonian Foreign Minister quoted a doctor who supposedly treated both people in the demonstrations and policemen who were shot. She (the doctor) denied that she treated any policemen. The Ukrainian government has set up commissions to find out who has done the shooting, but it is not easy. Many members of the police paramilitary unit "Berkut" have escaped to Russia or Crimea.


Last edited by elf48687789 on Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MonumentalBlackArt
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:31 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Uhm, the opposition movement forced a democratically elected government into early resignation and replaced it with a bunch of non-democratically elected figures of questionable popular support


That doesn't sound familiar at all?

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:54 am 
 

Yeah reading that reasoning made my brain hurt. It is institutionally impossible for a post-revolution/revolt interim government to be democratically elected. That's kind of what happens during regime change, existing governing structures and governing norms get thrown out or at least put on hold. By default there's no such thing as a "democratic revolution." If a "revolution" is done through the democratic process it is a continuation of those governing structures and norms, not a revolt against them.
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elf48687789
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:33 pm 
 

What are you talking about? The parliament removed Yanukovich, and it was within their power to do so, and they were democratically elected as well. His own party also removed him as their head.

On the other hand, I can't see it possible for a referendum under military occupation to be fair.

Unknown people are going from door to door destroying or taking Ukrainian passports: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unian.net%2Fpolitics%2F894874-v-simferopole-neizvestnyie-otbirayut-i-rvut-pasporta-ukraintsev-meriya.html They could also be stealing the passports to impersonate others so they can get into Ukraine, as well as to vote in their name. If the local authorities are in on it, that is. But if they weren't, wouldn't the perpetrators be caught already? (edit: they did catch some people, but no further details as of yet)


Last edited by elf48687789 on Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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godsonsafari
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:39 pm 
 

MonumentalBlackArt wrote:
godsonsafari wrote:
Have you been paying attention to this thread? Like, honestly.


Do you have anything to contribute, or are you just going to be a passive-aggressive little bitch? Like, honestly.


Quote:
He is fundamentally in agreement with you.


Answer to my question: No. In the meantime, maybe you can get inhumanist to say "Greece" again as some sort of abstract argument about the EEEEVIL of the EU. Greece! Greece? Greece.
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elf48687789
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:29 am 
 

This man is considered to be Putin's ideologue at the present time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin Read the whole article before commenting.

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 6:56 am 
 

Interesting read, I didn't know about this guy yet. A quick google search didn't exactly bring up loads of information about his ties to Putin himself, but if this article is anything to go by he atleast has ties to people close to Putin, and he seems to be a pretty big deal inside the Kremlin.

This is actually a 2008 article, but it seems to be relevant, and it provides some more information about the guy. http://www.geopolitika.lt/?artc=2874
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