Elections confirmed:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26289318?r=1

^No bias there then


Found this on mumsnet (the UK's second largest website for parents, with 4.3 million monthly visitors)




Statement by Nigel Farage of UKIP

"Two weeks ago it was revealed that the EU and the US were manoeuvring to set up a new government in the Ukraine. This is unacceptable. This should be a matter solely for the Ukrainian people to decide themselves without foreign interference. The provocative speeches and intervention of European foreign ministers and people like John McCain in the Ukraine have also been very deeply unhelpful.

"Too many people have died already; the street violence from both sides should stop. There will be a presidential election in the Ukraine next February. Hold off on your bullets and your stones, and use your ballot paper instead. Democratic involvement and change is infinitely better than needless violence."

All of these compromises sound good, except for the amnesty to violent rioters. That will only encourage the hardliners to get right back at it again, if they find even the slightest gripe about the makeup of the national unity government.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26302572
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world ... raine.html
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2 ... eized.html

Yanukovich is missing, said he won't step down.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... -expansion



Interesting reading the readers comments also.

"But Ukrainians are deeply divided about both European integration and the protests – largely along an axis between the largely Russian-speaking east and south (where the Communist party still commands significant support), and traditionally nationalist western Ukraine. Industry in the east is dependent on Russian markets, and would be crushed by EU competition."

What about violent police/security? Y'know, the ones with automatic weapons and military training, as opposed to being desperate and "armed" with corrugated iron shields and bricks.

I'm being a bit facetious, but I see this sort of comment as a form of victim-blaming. The people of Ukraine have been driven to do terrible things, but if their govt was properly held accountable we wouldn't have to have this sort of widespread violence.

Well, apparently they don't get amnesty.



I don't see how it is victim blaming to hold violent protesters accountable for violence just as much as the police. I'd like to know where people get the idea that the police is the sole perpetrator of violence and the protesters are only (re)acting in self defense.

http://imgur.com/gallery/1wvH8

"Victim-blaming"? What a load. A fair cause doesn't mean the noble freedom fighters have carte blanche to ruin everything in sight. The moment these protesters torched offices, broke into armouries and attacked the police with stolen weapons, they lost any victim status they may have had.

Reeeally disappointed in Canada right now. Our cronyist Harper government wants to send a delegation to Ukraine to work with the democracy movement... Hey! Democracy is already there! Elections been promised! So what Canada will really be doing there, is helping ensure the victory of the EU's preferred candidates. (Gotta expand that Canada-EU free trade zone!)

Then our opposition leader Justin "Coattails" Trudeau cracks a joke to the effect of "Russia's pissed about losing Olympic hockey, so they might invade Ukraine now. Har-har!" Making dumb jokes to cover your own cluelessness about world affairs is one thing, but when your apology states "I didn't mean to make light of the serious threat Russia poses to Ukraine", you're just digging a deeper hole for yourself. You go from not caring about Ukraine, to accusing Russia of being a militaristic threat to international peace; and not caring about Ukraine

Sad how nobody respects the idea of letting a sovereign nation resolve its own issues.

Funny that, the Canadian government sending people to represent their interests. It's almost like they want the best result for Canada from it!

I don't think it's heinously amoral for the US/EU/Russia/everybody to pick sides in the whole debacle. Governments have an obligation to their citizens first - if a pro-EU Ukraine is good for the EU then it's not horrible to think the EU might throw in some pressure to get it that way and vice-versa. At the end of the day it's the people of Ukraine who decide whether through further activism and quieting down and accepting the new regime. It's not like Europe or Russia are rolling in the tanks.

Plus the whole idea of letting a sovereign nation resolve it's own issues is flawed half the time anyway.

"Rolling in the tanks" is so 20th century.

Today it's financial pressure. That's how things are done now in the civilised world

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/ ... RW20140226

Putin has ordered the Russian military to begin combat drills in order to "be ready to bomb unfamiliar testing grounds." These operations were apparently not planned or announced in advance. Oddly, the exercise does not appear to involve the Black Sea Fleet but does involve the Baltic and Northern Fleets, neither of which operate near Ukrainian waters. It does however involve ground troops on the Ukrainian border.

Hopefully Putin reconsiders having a dialogue with the Ukrainian opposition, and hopefully they in turn stop inciting anti-Russian sentiment. Large troop movements and no dialogue is a toxic combination.

You talkin bout practice, man!



Only if Ukrainians, from both sides, ask Russia to clarify their intentions, or to help implement a solution, should Putin wade in.

Kinda want to see Russia curbstomp Ukraine. Just feels oldschool.

Kinda wanna see Exigence get a vacation from the forum for being a dumbass. Just feels oldschool.

Oh, I'm a mod, you say? Cool.

errr, so I guess the paramilitaries have landed and started taking over Crimea without any real resistance from the Ukrainian Navy.
Does Putin just not learn too well what happens when you takeover land with a sizeable muslim community in Europe? Well, look at the Balkan conflict, the Chechen conflict(s), Muslims in Europe don't just pack their shit and leave - they have nowhere to go, they will defend their land at any cost if threatened and if the reports of Russian Hell's Angels (called "Night Wolves") is true, it's really just a matter of days before there's ethnic clashes.

Who? Obviously not Беркут, that's a different beast, at least in zoology.

I don't really have much to say about the situation in the Ukraine right now, because to be honest I am not from over there, and I am not really versed in the underlying issues and for me to comment in that respect, I would only put my foot in my mouth. And I feel that is probably the case for the majority of Americans- including the American government.

Which is my point. My greatest fear right now is that either our president or someone from our government will want to "cowboy up" and try to stick the US in the middle of this situation, where most of the world clearly understands that the US clearly does not belong. This would be disasterous, for the U.S., and for all parties involved. But the last couple decades have seen nothing but utterly disasterous U.S. foreign policy and I see little hope of that changing. The US military belongs over in the Ukraine about as much as Limp Bizkit belongs on the Metal Archives, and the last thing the world needs is Obama or some gung-ho US politician thinking he can "support democracy" by throwing military muscle around in some conflict halfway around the world (and possibly provoking WW3)

http://www.theguardian.com/world/shortc ... cycle-club
Maybe not the most thorough article on em, but it helps put the relationship in perspective a bit.
Would it be in poor taste to start taking bets on when some major false flag operation goes off? it's only a matter of time before something gets blown up or some sketchy arms shipment gets into the hands of the Tatars or the Euromaidan groups.. Like it's 2008 all over again

Yeah, this. Since people here are clearly very distraught at the idea of Russia sending in the tanks, hopefully the situation will serve as an impetus for some Americans to take a look at their own support for U.S. intervention in conflicts like these. But, probably not.

oh no need to worry about that, they've been very good at killing of various turkic minorities throughout their history. I'm sure they can repeat the feat again if they have to.

The as good as it gets scenario right now is that the crimea becomes autonomous. There is no way Russia will risk losing their most critical port and they are willing go to great lengths to keep it.

Also on people saying russia should back down. Maybe they should not have treated this in the stereotypical way but you need to realise that russian has not been as small and vulnerable as it is now since literally the 19th century. Foreign major powers have steadily encroached on russia since the fall of the soviet union and they are getting ever more dangerously close.

American tanks are fitted with state-of-the-art security features that keep them from working except when the cause is just and right. If an evil man touches them they will not turn on.

"Those who immediately started blaming Russia and still continue to blame Russia are totally unfair and incorrect, because Russia did not interfere in this situation. The only thing we did was to outline to our Ukrainian colleagues the implications that association with the European Union would have for the Ukrainian economy and its relations with other countries, including Russia."

"Ukrainian society had been the object of certain preparatory indoctrination. Even schoolbooks were changed to promote association with the European Union"

Taken from a recent interview with Vladimir Chizhov - Russian ambassador to the EU.



"U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry on Sunday condemned Russia's "incredible act of aggression" in Ukraine and threatened economic sanctions by the United States and allies to isolate Moscow"


The pot calling the kettle black?



Ukraine is an immediate neighbour, and Russia is bound to react defensively to any outside interest.
Do past hardships (famines before WWII) bear much relevance to todays split of allegiances in the region?

I have no doubt that's true, but this has all ballooned beyond the debate over EU ties.




Yes, Kerry, it is such incredible aggression for Russia to deploy troops to a base in Sevastopol which they own





Sadly yes, the Soviet ghost is s hard one to exorcize. Some Ukrainians equate being anti-Soviet (which is fine) with being anti-Russian (which is wrong). I had hoped things wouldn't fall apart this far, but it's looking more likely a partition will occur. If so, I think Russia will be generous enough to leave the new Ukraine with much of the Don basin. Ukraine's industry is concentrated around there, so the EU colony (Western) Ukraine would need that area to avoid being totally ruined. As for Crimea, well it's traditionally Russian land. Only transfered to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954. So annexation to Russia, for them to keep the Sevastopol naval base and surrounding Russian-inhabited zone, would correct an historical wrong.

A pretty good, brief, unbiased (I think) summary of the events so far (with pictures):
http://imgur.com/gallery/qCXlb

That's as likely as a land invasion of Iran by the US. Which is to say it isn't going to happen. This is seriously the most predictable series of events that is happening right now, BTW.



Famines? No. Stalin sending ethnic Russians to live in Western Ukraine after World War 2 to alter the population and get to farming? Yes. Saying Western Ukraine belongs to Russia is a bit like saying Israel belongs to its current inhabitants and that either is a correction of past wrongs. Some will agree. Some won't. Do some of your own reading and come to your own conclusions.

Yeah, Russian forces are quite clearly all over Crimea, pretty clear violation of their basing agreement.

I always thought another war in Europe would start in Balkans, as it is pretty much completely unstable, from ethnic tensions, corruption, failed economies to religious tensions etc. Bosnia or Macedonia specifically, which would then force entire region to go to war.

Makes you wonder how this will end, if Russia manages to quickly deal with Ukraine (without much blood and chaos, as it would Ukraine into Iraq or Afghanistan), they will have army on EU borders and Ukraine subdued.
Someone living in Romania and Bulgaria, countries that joined EU so that Russia wouldn't try to add them to their sphere (strategic decision, if EU standards were applied fairly, Bulgaria and Romania still would be waiting to join (corruption, poor economy, poor democratic standards etc.), might wonder will Russia try to pull them out of EU.

Which would open Balkans for Russian influence, which is basically return to how things were prior WWI.

I don't think there's a threat for that to happen, but EU and USA have to decide where NATO stops and Russian sphere begins. I've read Zbigniew Brzezinski's book, which is basically a plan how to destroy Russia (by cutting it from Siberia, making Russia stretching to Urals, making it medium-sized country and no longer a suporpower) but that failed. New world order (not that conspiracy one, I'm talking about Bush sr. one, in which USA envisioned world with only USA as superpower and USA as a global policeman) failed. USA is no longer sole superpower as it became in 1991, Russia is at least partially back.

Poor Ukrainians just got caught in crossfire, I say EU and NATO will do nothing and will leave Ukraine to themselves, like with Georgia in 2008. It remains to be seen how effective is Russian army. I hope EU will now stop dealing with shape of cucumbers and at least try to make some kind of army, as it's pointless to be in EU and be protected by treaties, not worth a paper on which they were written.

There could be difficulty in telling apart local Russian volunteers brigades from mainland Russian troops. And you can count on the western media to assume the worst! Just curious, are you living in that area? I ask because your location is "Venestraya", which I have no idea what that means, and of course someone who is in Crimea would have a more trustworthy opinion on this in my eyes.

Have you been following the events at all? Russia admitted to being behind the troops two days ago.

And they're about to violently take a Ukranian military base. Not good. Not good at all.

Almost 60% of the inhabitants of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea are ethnically russians. The local government is calling for independence from Ukraine. I think a referendum should be held, though I'm quite sure this is not the right time for it.

Which base are you talking about?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26424738

They're also demanding the surrender of two frigates, but I don't think this is updated for that yet.

Crimea has been occupied by Russian special forces, wearing no insignia of any state on their uniforms or vehicles, and are asking the Ukrainian military stationed in Crimea to surrender tomorrow by 5 A.M.

A former aid of Putin says that the goal of the Russian military maneuvers is not simply to occupy Crimea and parts of Eastern Ukraine, but include the occupation of Kiev and the overthrow of the Ukrainian state, especially if they give in to certain staged provocations which will be attempted.

Here it is, but I don't know if many of you will understand it though, it is in Russian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAdBBDmruYo

Here's another news, female journalist beat in the head and camera taken away while trying to film Russian soldiers surrounding Ukranian Navy headquarters, translation to English (translator mistakes in article title): http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdirectpress.ru%2Fv-ukraine%2F36502-v-sevastopole-zhurnalistke-razbili-golovu-i-otobrali-kameru

the russians deny that there is an ultimatum.
I am amused by the shitload of media manipulation thats being done by both sides.

Also there is this treaty that apparently can be interpreted as that crimea should revert to turkey.
This would clearly be the ~best~ result short of the restoration of the crimean khanate.

There's been a lot of destabilising going on in countries over the last few years, now it's Ukraine.
The western papers and media are quick to condemn, but there's always two sides to a story.

Lol, there ya go! Russians and Ukrainians, as much as you're busy squabbling with each other, remember it can always be worse. For all y'all.

What?
Clearly either option iis an improvement.

Millions of East Europeans sold into slavery. Yup, the Crimean Khanate was the good ole days

Also you have an odd interpretation of the Treaty of Kuchuk Kainarji, assuming that's the one you mentioned.

Yeah, they denied it, but apparently there is another for 16:00 today. They probably ordered the first one too, but then denied it because they had orders to do so/international outrage and so on.

In fact Putin denies the troops are Russian, even though some of the vehicles bear Russian plates and some still have the colours painted.