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themicrulah
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:56 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
THEMICRULAH wrote:
I think we'll get people to start carrying pepper spray before we can get people to stop raping. I wouldn't call it pragmatic, I'd call it preventative.

But you know what "pragmatic" and "moral" means, right?
Anyways, I'm just being pedantic. Move along.

I've read William James, so yes, lol.
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mayonesa
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Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:10 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:14 am 
 

None of the problems of humanity can be eradicated.

You could have less rape by having a less sexualized and power-hungry culture.

I think it's interesting that half of the rapes in the USA are man-on-man.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:03 am 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
No, that's pragmatic advice. The moral is "don't rape".


Genius. Maybe we should ban murder too.

Nice strawman, idiot. All I said is that "carry pepper spray" has nothing to do with morality while "don't rape" definitely does. I never said that they were alternatives. I never said that women shouldn't carry pepper spray. In fact I implied that it is the pragmatic thing to do. And I never even hinted at anything related to legal issues. Why is everyone suddenly getting all stupid over petty bullshit?
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:22 pm 
 

Sorry, I completely misinterpreted your post. You'd be surprised at the amount of people that think rape is easily solved by telling men it's a bad thing to do.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:26 pm 
 

mayonesa wrote:

You could have less rape by having a less sexualized and power-hungry culture.



Ah, every radfems wet dream -so to speak- but it's literally impossible, humans are naturally very sexual beings. You'd have to have an entire population doped on whatever hormones needed to suffocate sexual thoughts, not to mention sadistic tendencies, for this to be a reality.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:27 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
That's Asia. Then there is the recurring story of 'war rape' in Africa, which still seems to be very wide-spread practice in conflict zones around the continent.

These news stories of course lull us Europeans and North Americans into the false thought that this is a problem of "less civilised" nations on other, less developed continents. That's obviously a load of bull. In fact, according to Wikipedia's rape statistics, reported cases of rape in some Western countries easily rival those of some sub-Saharan African or Asian countries.

The above is just some very basic information to start off this thread. The real purpose of this thread is to discuss how we, as a society, be it in the richest country of the world or the poorest country of the world (it is a global phenomenon and we should all find solutions together) tackle this problem. How do we increase reporting (most rapes go unreported), how do we improve prosecution, how do we change attitudes towards women, children or "weaker" men that are being sexually preyed upon? How do we begin to find solutions to perhaps finally eradicate this despicable crime?


There's no way to eradicate any sort of crime. Also, while it's true this is a global problem, you just can't find a uniform solution. The rape stats show reported cases but in many so-called "less civilized" countries, less people will report the crime. The cultural aspect can't be discarded, which means there isn't a unified way to eradicate rape. You can't tackle war rape the same way you do for rapes on campuses in North America, for instance. Prevention strategies would be different.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:30 pm 
 

Is this rape?

Quote:
Dear Prudence,
My husband is kind, supportive, funny, generous, smart, and loving. However, I feel like I must divorce him. Six years ago, when we were in our early 20s and had just fallen in love, after a night of partying and drinking, he woke me up in the middle of the night and started to have sex with me. I was dozing and still drunk and, yes, I took my panties off myself. But when I realized that it was not OK for him to make advances on me in my state, I pushed him away and ran out. He later felt so bad he wanted to turn himself in for rape. I was very confused and thought at times that I was overreacting and at others that I was raped. We painfully worked through this, but the incident made my husband very reluctant about having sex. This led to an agreement that he shouldn't be afraid of coming close to me in similar situations as long as he asked my consent. This made us feel better and I felt secure again. However, we just found ourselves in a very similar situation. After coming back from a friend’s wine tasting we went to bed and he started to kiss me. I liked it and went along, only to wake up in the morning and remember only half of it. Now I am in the same painful spot I was before and I can’t fathom how he could have ignored our agreement. Should I just drop it or am I right about feeling abused?

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ClaymanOnFire
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:02 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
mayonesa wrote:

You could have less rape by having a less sexualized and power-hungry culture.



Ah, every radfems wet dream -so to speak- but it's literally impossible, humans are naturally very sexual beings. You'd have to have an entire population doped on whatever hormones needed to suffocate sexual thoughts, not to mention sadistic tendencies, for this to be a reality.

For a completely sexless culture, maybe. But it's hard to argue that Western culture hasn't become much more sexualized than it was, say, fifty years ago. Then again, the degree to which something is sexual is relative to the times (the bikini for instance).

Come to think of it, I'd be very interested in reading some studies about this sort of thing.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:30 pm 
 

mayonesa wrote:
You could have less rape by having a less sexualized and power-hungry culture.

In the 50s people were much less open about sexuality than today, but do you think rape was less common back then? Calling a culture "sexualized" is a simplification that tells us next to nothing about how that culture actually deals with sexuality.

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Ah, every radfems wet dream -so to speak-

What? Oh yes, the mythical radfem beast that roams the abysmal depths of the male victim complex.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:34 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Ah, every radfems wet dream -so to speak-

What? Oh yes, the mythical radfem beast that roams the abysmal depths of the male victim complex.


*thumbsup*
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:00 pm 
 

That a joke? I suppose you didn't hear about that dumbass Rebecca Watson complaining about the terrible event of being hit on by a man in an elevator like she was almost raped? Even Dawkins called her out on that, but then Dawkins is logical thinker and someone who doesn't stand for bullshit. Hell, Noam Chomsky mentions these kinds of people like they're some sort of sick joke. Don't get me wrong, most women I know are feminists of some stripe, but I've personally met the loonies, the women that call others traitors to the cause for shaving their damn armpits, so yeah, it's not just some male victim complex. You'd have to be seriously burying your head in your sand to think that the feminist movement has no radical/embarrassing element. I mean, other feminists even point this out.

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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:15 pm 
 

Richard Dawkins? Now there's an example of someone I don't have distaste for. ;)
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:21 pm 
 

As someone who openly identifies as a feminist, I can confirm that we do have our outliers who do nothing but make the rest of us look... pretty fucking terrible.

This is a good example of a person who does infinitely more damage to the feminist movement by creating easily-trampled, ridiculous statements that get propped up as 'representative of all feminists everywhere" by our detractors, than actually helping it. It's frustrating to say the least.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:26 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
As someone who openly identifies as a feminist, I can confirm that we do have our outliers who do nothing but make the rest of us look... pretty fucking terrible.

This is a good example of a person who does infinitely more damage to the feminist movement by creating easily-trampled, ridiculous statements that get propped up as 'representative of all feminists everywhere" by our detractors, than actually helping it. It's frustrating to say the least.

Are you male?

Also: PTSD?
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:32 pm 
 

Yes.

I'm not sure what you're getting at...
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:39 pm 
 

Women with PTSD probably sound ridiculous to someone who is both a male and does not have PTSD.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:59 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
That a joke? I suppose you didn't hear about that dumbass Rebecca Watson complaining about the terrible event of being hit on by a man in an elevator like she was almost raped? Even Dawkins called her out on that, but then Dawkins is logical thinker and someone who doesn't stand for bullshit. Hell, Noam Chomsky mentions these kinds of people like they're some sort of sick joke. Don't get me wrong, most women I know are feminists of some stripe, but I've personally met the loonies, the women that call others traitors to the cause for shaving their damn armpits, so yeah, it's not just some male victim complex. You'd have to be seriously burying your head in your sand to think that the feminist movement has no radical/embarrassing element. I mean, other feminists even point this out.

I can say I've never met someone like that, and I didn't have to bury my head in the sand for it. Your original wording was "every radfem" though, not "the ignorant zealots among feminists". It could easily be meant as a pejorative generalization. Don't be surprised when people are irritated by such a poor choice of words.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:04 pm 
 

THEMICRULAH wrote:
Women with PTSD probably sound ridiculous to someone who is both a male and does not have PTSD.

That doesn't necessarily mean they AREN'T being ridiculous. Which his post outlined.

inhumanist wrote:
I can say I've never met someone like that, and I didn't have to bury my head in the sand for it. Your original wording was "every radfem" though, not "the ignorant zealots among feminists". It could easily be meant as a pejorative generalization. Don't be surprised when people are irritated by such a poor choice of words.


They're a very broken kind of people. And when I said "every radfem" I was thought I was obviously referring to the loonies. Pretty much any of the writers of the likes of Jezebel, that is if they don't deliberately drum up horseshit articles for hits.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:02 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
mayonesa wrote:
You could have less rape by having a less sexualized and power-hungry culture.

In the 50s people were much less open about sexuality than today, but do you think rape was less common back then? Calling a culture "sexualized" is a simplification that tells us next to nothing about how that culture actually deals with sexuality.

Yeah, it's a bunch of bullshit. Older societies were a lot less open about sex and there was plenty of rape, possibly more so than today.

Quote:
What? Oh yes, the mythical radfem beast that roams the abysmal depths of the male victim complex.

:lol:

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
That a joke? I suppose you didn't hear about that dumbass Rebecca Watson complaining about the terrible event of being hit on by a man in an elevator like she was almost raped?

Actually that isn't what happened. Rebecca started out quite reasonable at first, though she did become bitchier after, but not because of the incident itself. Here's what happened, in a nutshell:
- Rebecca Watson gave a talk in some atheist/skeptics convention about how she doesn't like being objectified and sexualized at conventions;
- Later that night, after chatting with friends in a pub, she announces she was tired and going to bed, it was about 4 AM;
- *A man followed her in the elevator and told she found her interesting and invited her to his room for "coffee". Watson declined and went to her room without further incident.
- Watson later mentioned this event in passing in a video, just saying things like "Come on, I just said I don't go to conventions to get hit on and now this guy invites me to his room for "coffee"? Guys, come on, don't do that, it's creepy. Kthanxbai."

Honestly, her mention in the video was reasonable enough. Guy was kind of a dick. Not because he propositioned her per se, but due to the context. Was he just being terribly awkward or just kinda creepy, or just trolling her? Who knows, but Watson saying "derp, guys don't do that ok?" isn't some sort of raging man-hating feminist.

But after this video is when the shitstorm started.
- A bunch of bloggers (including PZ Myers and, unfortunately, Phil Plait, whom I respect a lot but he kinda missed the mark there) blew it out of proportions, saying the guy in question was "predatory" and made Watson feel "unsafe" and made comparisons to rape and whatnot. Note that Watson herself hadn't mentioned the behaviour as predatory or rapey, she just said it was creepy and rude because of the context.
- After these exaggerated comparisons happened, some people (including Dawkins) went "come on that's ridiculous, nothing bad happened" and came across as dismissive.
- Watson started receiving a bunch of hatemail, including rape threats. And that's when she started flipping out, calling Dawkins misogynistic (when he was mostly replying to the likes of Myers and Plait's overreaction) and called for a boycott of his works, and when other women started defending Dawkins she started labelling them as enemies and just generally kind of lost it. Which is a shame, because I thought she was fairly reasonable initially, and I get that getting spammed with rape threats can be unsettling but she still had no right to be bitchy to people (including other women, not just privileged white old men) who politely disagreed with her.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:03 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
THEMICRULAH wrote:
Women with PTSD probably sound ridiculous to someone who is both a male and does not have PTSD.

That doesn't necessarily mean they AREN'T being ridiculous. Which his post outlined.


They should not be dismissed simply for being "ridiculous". That is their trauma talking, that is what happens when someone is raped or suffers from serious domestic abuse. Sorry if that bothers you I guess?
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:08 pm 
 

THEMICRULAH wrote:
Women with PTSD probably sound ridiculous to someone who is both a male and does not have PTSD.

I see what you're saying (this is essentially Standpoint feminism, something I've talked about quite extensively here), but still, do you think things like logic, peer-reviewed social science and extensive case studies can be hand-waved away just because the researcher hasn't lived the exact same life as someone who holds particular... uh... controversial views?
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:11 pm 
 

It's a very complex thing to think about, what you're bringing up. I don't think science is the end-all be-all tool to solve and know everything in existence. I just don't think anyone who hasn't lived through sexual trauma or domestic abuse could understand to the fullest extent the effect it has on someone and how toxic it is.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:52 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
THEMICRULAH wrote:
Women with PTSD probably sound ridiculous to someone who is both a male and does not have PTSD.

I see what you're saying (this is essentially Standpoint feminism, something I've talked about quite extensively here), but still, do you think things like logic, peer-reviewed social science and extensive case studies can be hand-waved away just because the researcher hasn't lived the exact same life as someone who holds particular... uh... controversial views?


In all honesty, I take anything that comes out of the social sciences with a grain of salt. There's been at least a couple of occasions where people wrote papers about absolute bollocks that were accepted in social science because they fit the narrative, only to oust themselves later on. I think that one guy is still employed as a professor because he claimed he has some serious mental problems (I mean apart from being a social scientist).

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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:00 pm 
 

THEMICRULAH wrote:
They should not be dismissed simply for being "ridiculous". That is their trauma talking, that is what happens when someone is raped or suffers from serious domestic abuse. Sorry if that bothers you I guess?



Uh, yes they should. I don't take my schizo Aunt seriously when she tells me the Russians have invaded. I don't have to humour her craziness. Comforting a rape victim is healthy, not humouring her idiocy. Also, having suffered abuse myself, please don't be a condescending little turd. Sorry if that bothers you?

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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:19 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
That a joke? I suppose you didn't hear about that dumbass Rebecca Watson complaining about the terrible event of being hit on by a man in an elevator like she was almost raped? Even Dawkins called her out on that, but then Dawkins is logical thinker and someone who doesn't stand for bullshit. Hell, Noam Chomsky mentions these kinds of people like they're some sort of sick joke. Don't get me wrong, most women I know are feminists of some stripe, but I've personally met the loonies, the women that call others traitors to the cause for shaving their damn armpits, so yeah, it's not just some male victim complex. You'd have to be seriously burying your head in your sand to think that the feminist movement has no radical/embarrassing element. I mean, other feminists even point this out.


If Rebecca Watson is your idea of radical then... lol.

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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:21 am 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
THEMICRULAH wrote:
They should not be dismissed simply for being "ridiculous". That is their trauma talking, that is what happens when someone is raped or suffers from serious domestic abuse. Sorry if that bothers you I guess?



Uh, yes they should. I don't take my schizo Aunt seriously when she tells me the Russians have invaded. I don't have to humour her craziness. Comforting a rape victim is healthy, not humouring her idiocy. Also, having suffered abuse myself, please don't be a condescending little turd. Sorry if that bothers you?


PTSD and schizophrenia are two entirely different things. Schizophrenia has nothing to do with trauma.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:52 am 
 

In reference to PTSD I don't think the reactions are irrational. You have to understand how PTSD and triggers work. IF you don't treat someone who has PTSD seriously they're just going to go farther into their hole, and things will get worse. You can't just ignore the things they say.

I don't even like using these words to describe things because I think the modern field of psychology is incredibly fucked up and dehumanizing. It's just handy to have catch-all terms to describe mental phenomenon.

Schizophrenia is one I especially despise. In my opinion it's a label slapped on those that society deems to be too "out there" or "wacky". Instant "pariah" or "leper" sticker. "Ohh, they have schizophrenia. They might go wacko and kill everybody".
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:41 am 
 

Treating what these people say as anything serious encourages a warped frame of mind, simple as.
So, would you say someone that has seen a man melt up through the floor t-1000 style has not got schizophrenia? That her systematic attempts to slowly kill my grandmother is not part part of her irrational paranoid actions?

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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:44 am 
 

There's different kinds of schizophrenia and some are more malicious and severe than others. I think the only time that word is fit to be used is in reference to someone who sounds like they are on a permanent acid trip and aren't happy about it and trying to kill your grandmother, as you put it.

That's way different than PTSD though. I sure don't know how I would even deal with someone who has that severe of schizophrenia.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:01 am 
 

No, it's not incorrect. You have to understand why they are triggered and saying things you think are "irrational". I also really don't like the phrase "mental disorder", and it is a label that is slapped on people. Are you saying no one has ever been inappropriately diagnosed with a mental illness??
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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:07 am 
 

Understanding why they say something irrational, and thinking what they say isn't irrational because of their mental illness are not the same thing, and I'm sorry you don't like the phrase, but schizophrenia is a mental disorder/mental illness. It's a shame that your thinking on it seems to be so clouded because the word 'disorder' gives you conniptions. Surely you don't think that the symptoms of schizophrenia are present in someone that is mentally healthy? Anyway, if you want to continue arguing about it you're welcome to PM me if you really want, but this is getting way off topic.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:13 am 
 

You're assuming that every person who has ever been diagnosed with schizophrenia has been held up to the rigid standards of the DSM's diagnostic criteria and there has never been an improper diagnosis. You're assuming that the field of modern psychology has no flaws in it and it is a perfect way to diagnose and treat mental disorders.

About PTSD and being irrational: you don't understand what I'm trying to say. I live with someone who has PTSD.
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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:24 am 
 

No, I'm not assuming any of that, and I do understand what you're saying, but I disagree with you.
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I felt like if Ygritte shoved me chilly up my ass (Thats right, touched by fire)

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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:28 am 
 

Alright then my friend. Agree to disagree. :)
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I SPREAD DISEASE LIKE A DOG, DISCHARGE MY PAYLOOOOAD
A MILE HIGH ROTTEN EGG AIR OF DEATH, ASSAULTS YOUR NOSTRILS!

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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:36 pm 
 

Can I de-rail the thread for a second and turn it into a thread about the band Bikini Kill, for at least one post?? Maybe we can all just appreciate some raw feminist punk rock for a minute.

Click here at your own discretion, your penis may be severed by the time the song is over
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Treeweaver's new demo EP Aradia is now available!
Official Treeweaver Facebook Page
I SPREAD DISEASE LIKE A DOG, DISCHARGE MY PAYLOOOOAD
A MILE HIGH ROTTEN EGG AIR OF DEATH, ASSAULTS YOUR NOSTRILS!

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
Posts: 1966
Location: Panopticon
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:17 am 
 

Back on topic,

Quote:
The rapist - an educated man with a family and a good job – spoke frankly about overpowering the woman he was dating, because he felt it was his right

Quote:
"He twisted my arm and the look in his eyes was so frightening. I kept saying ‘no, no, no’ but he wouldn't listen."


So rape is about power and not sex?

Quote:
Yes, rape is "about sex," in that it involves a certain sexlike act. But it's a pretty dismal kind of "sex" in which one person's pain, and possible permanent injury, is the occasion for the other one's pleasure. What most of us mean by sex is something mutual and participatory, loving and uplifting or at least flirty and fun. In fact, making the world safe for plunging necklines and thong undies is a goal that enlightened members of both sexes ought to be able to get behind. As for those guys who can't distinguish between sex and rape, I don't care whether they're as "natural" as granola, they don't deserve to live in the company of women.
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Outgunned, outnumbered, though never outclassed

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9447
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:34 pm 
 

I split the discussion about privilege to a new topic here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=101143

Sorry for those who had posts addressing both the OP and the tangent (Gypaetus particularly), I can't split posts so some things may be lost in one thread over the other. I think it's OK for the most part though.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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