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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2001
Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:38 pm 
 

Earthcubed wrote:
something to kill the sex drive. ... I'm pretty sure psychiatrists say that's more about power than sex, so it would still happen.

Even obsession with power can't overwhelm sufficient doses of inhibitors. Some pedophiles who are taking the responsible side of the fork in the road take pharms which do exactly this. It's pretty effective, and they're a lot happier as a result. Serial rapists, or habitual rapists, could be given chemical castration.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:01 pm 
 

Rape normally doesn't happen because rapists are into rape though. Pedophiles don't take medicine because it stops them from raping children but because it stops them from wanting to have sex with them. They don't want to wish for something they know they can never have. Serial rapists simply take what they wish for which is an entirely different kind of problem. It's a moral defect instead of an inner conflict.

What I'm saying is that comparing them is pointless and doesn't help one bit with the question whether castration as punishment is justified or generally a good idea.
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Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:21 pm 
 

Oh .. I wasn't trying to help with that bit. I was basically making a play on words with the castration there. I wasn't comparing them, either. Just an example of how chems can adjust behavior. I think it could be an effective punishment (chemically deny a fellow the ability to get turned on by anything at all for ten years of probationary injections), but I'm not going to argue the morality of the punishment. That's a ring my hat wasn't intended to land in with my banter.

edit:
More to the point, though, I thought of these responsible pedophiles because we were considering more subtle definitions of rape. If someone has a thing for fucking passed out girls, and he knows it, and he knows it's wrong, he's not necessarily wanting to rape anymore than the pedophile wants to rape. He knows he needs to keep himself from engaging in behavior that he knows is wrong. Serial rapists most definitely fit into a similar category, though the object of the obsession is different than the pedophile.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:49 pm 
 

Not at all. The pedophiles you mentioned aren't pederasts/rapists, they are simply normal people, presumably guilty of no crime who however have abnormal urges. Rapists on the other hand are rapists, meaning they are already guilty of committing rape. What you're thinking of are, what I'll for now call "rape fetishists". Then the analogy to pedophiles is correct. But if they take meds to control their urges it's their own decision and has nothing to do with chemical castration as a punishment for people who commited rape, except for the medical procedure being the same.

I know this seems besides the point you're making again. But consider this: Serial rapists have already given up on personal responsibility. Why should them trying to control their urges with meds be relevant to the discussion at hand? What might be relevant is potential rapists taking the moral route and choosing to not rape people. That's the relevant decision here, not the follow-up decision to take meds to feel better.

That's just what bugs me about the way you put things. I'm not trying to tell you what you should discuss and what not.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?


Last edited by inhumanist on Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
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Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:03 pm 
 

Very true. I should have been more careful to clearly distinguish between those on either side of the threshold of action.

edit: though if a person felt themselves on the threshold of raping someone (if it wasn't so much a fetish as a compulsion they hadn't acted on yet) but hadn't yet done so, it would be a means to that end to take similar drugs as well as go to preventative therapy. Serial rapists are, in some cases, reachable, and a treatment of this sort could be designed for them to undergo while they were in prison. The unreachable should be kept out of society, seems to me.

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Vipunen
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:32 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:14 pm 
 

A culture where most social discourse during leisure time involves alcohol one way or another is a nasty breeding ground for conflict, that much is certain. During my 3-year stay in a nearby, larger city where a good amount of the residents are students in their early twenties, rape accusations and topics dealing with regret were so commonplace that one would start treating them as everyday issues, despite the gravity that the former word contains.

I think it's reasonable to treat both parties at fault if heavy drinking is involved, to a certain extent of course. It's difficult to treat the initiating partner as a rapist when both parties were intoxicated and experiencing a heavy loss of judgement at the time.

Finland has a binge drinking culture and it shows. I don't like to drink anymore unless I'm on a pre-gig bar stroll or something, but that alone has severely limited the amount of social contacts I have, combined with the fact that I moved back to a much smaller city. Some sort of paradigm shift is needed to make drinking less appealing and while I think some of the changes to alcohol laws here have been silly, if that's what it takes to limit someone's weekly binge drinking habits then it's ultimately good in my book.

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:24 pm 
 

Yeah, inhumanist, I was only really thinking about the people who saw it coming, and had a chance to do something about it. The drunk-rape wasn't a thing I was considering meds to avoid. That's a symptom of much different factors, none of which involve forethought or respect for other people.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:26 pm 
 

^ Uhm, dude I think you mixed us up...
Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Very true. I should have been more careful to clearly distinguish between those on either side of the threshold of action.

edit: though if a person felt themselves on the threshold of raping someone (if it wasn't so much a fetish as a compulsion they hadn't acted on yet) but hadn't yet done so, it would be a means to that end to take similar drugs as well as go to preventative therapy. Serial rapists are, in some cases, reachable, and a treatment of this sort could be designed for them to undergo while they were in prison. The unreachable should be kept out of society, seems to me.

Right, I think I can agree with that. But what I take from this is that castration as punishment doesn't make much/any sense, because the rapists you'd be reaching out to are going to do it voluntarily and the rapists who won't do it voluntarily are (if the penal system works correctly) kept from raping anyways (First in jail/prison, then in psychiatry. Of course since it doesn't work correctly, rape will often happen there as well).

You could forcibly castrate rapists instead of putting them into psychiatry after their penalty, but if that's necessary, and they are likely to rape again it means they haven't become functioning humans again, and castrating them would only turn them into the human equivalent of muzzled dogs with rabies. They can't harm anyone in that specific way, but they still don't belong into society.

Vipunen wrote:
I think it's reasonable to treat both parties at fault if heavy drinking is involved, to a certain extent of course. It's difficult to treat the initiating partner as a rapist when both parties were intoxicated and experiencing a heavy loss of judgement at the time.

Well, no. Either it's consensual or not. If it is not consensual the fault lies with the person who resorts to rape. The other person might be clouded in judgement regarding whether or not to give consent, and might give consent but then regret it afterwards (in which case it isn't rape) - BUT if it IS rape, meaning consent was not given (or was given and then withdrawn), then there is no blame to be cast on the victim. And you are an idiot if you think there is.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:03 am 
 

Napero wrote:
I essentially agree here, on the level of principle and ethics. But if someone says it's equal to a stalker-in-a-bush case, I must say I do not agree at all, there are degrees to everything, including the sentence the guilty party should get.

Uh, yeah, so? Rape with violent assault is usually called aggravated rape, or there's a sentence of assault in addition to rape. Again, what the hell is your point? If we discuss a murder case and lament at what a horrible person the murderer is, do we end up talking about how much worse are mass murderers from war-torn third world countries?

Quote:
People take advantage of their positions and/or sex all the time in the world, both ways, and their subjective definitions of rape differ. The definition can be extremely subjective, which is fine, and it usually is built-in in the local culture.

I'm really creeped out by the insistence of the "extremely subjective" qualifier is. No, it's not "extremely subjective", other than statutory rape, it most definitely isn't.

Quote:
objective to strive for, and I'm all for enforcing it in any way that does not collide with the real world, but please, people, please remember it's a real world with real people on both sides of the intercourse before you cry rape and call for castration and sex offender status for the male in the performance of horizontal mambo.

I didn't say anything about castration, in fact I think you're the one who keeps bringing it up, so I don't know why the hell you're so defensive.

Quote:
I believe at least 40% of the enjoyable sex in the world happens in circumstances that could afterwards be interpreted as rape in the worst case scenario as discussed here,

What in the fucking fuck...

Well, so long as we're making shit up, I believe that 90% of your posts in this thread are rape apologist garbage because, reasons.
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:46 am 
 

Actually, if you remove the qualifier and just include all sex, 40% is probably not as much of an exaggeration as it sounds like. I don't agree with just about anything else he said though.....especially the part about alcoholic situations. It really is quite simple to walk away. And the fact of a drunk man not remembering that he raped someone the next day (or remembering it in a different way) is no more an excuse than a drunk driver not remembering getting behind the wheel. It doesn't muddy the waters. The solution is to not pick up women at bars or frat parties (which would also severely reduce the amount of unwanted pregnancies and STD's).


I tend to be a relativist but apart from statutory rape I don't really see a whole lot of point discussing the subjective nature of rape or degrees of rape.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:21 am 
 

OK, it seems I've talked myself into a corner, and I shall yield. You people are right, of course, and I never really claimed otherwise. I am NOT defending any kind of rape, I'm just being pragmatic. And rambling.

The only thing that really bugs me is the window this leaves open, the obvious hypothetical possibility of revoking the consent later based on the excuse of drunkenness; herein lies the "subjective" part, although I guess that's the wrong word to use in this context. Just as in Earthcubed's drunken driving analogy, the decisions in such a hypothetical situation are made by adults in a state they have willingly entered, and "I was so drunk my judgement was impaired" is not an excuse for drunken driving either; I just expect grown-ups to bear their own responsibilities in normal social situations, which often include moderate to high amounts of voluntarily consumed alcohol. And that goes for both sides of the issue, not just the man. It seems that with the exception of Vipunen, no one seems willing to consider the heavily water-muddying fact that after a bunch of drinks, conscious, intoxicated men and women do occasionally willingly engage in sex they end up regretting later, be it for the sake of shame, unwanted pregnancy, having contracted STDs, damage to their own long term relationships, religious reasons, or whatever; in my eyes, that simply cannot retroactively turn that sex into rape. And I guess that none of you really suggested it could. But I don't think this is worth pursuing further, I'll just get (deservedly?) pummeled, and I guess it's a sidetrack in any case, since the discussion is supposed to be on rape as a phenomenon and not on post-coital Grisham-esque courtroom tricks and/or the CSI-level evidence needed to prove a rape. So let's leave it, I am not a rape apologist, just a geezer with an ever-increasing pragmatic approach to everything. A rape is a rape if she says so.

However, my point about the bias in the statistics between different countries still stands, even though it seems I got it too mixed up with the above for comfort. You simply cannot compare Scandinavia and most of Africa for example, because the legal and cultural definition of rape varies, especially when it comes to marital rape, and the cultural aspects of simply contacting the police after a rape will screw with the numbers of cases. Statistics must, by definition, be based on something like police reports, and if victim shaming in western countries is a serious issue, just think about the fact that in certain countries reporting a rape could lead to the raped woman being stoned to death for being a seducing slut, to an honour killing within the family, or simply an eternal social stigma. That alone means that the fraction of rapes that end up in the statistics is wildly different, and we can't compare these numbers quite as easily as statistics on other things.
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:03 am 
 

So a tiny, pretty much insignificant amount of cases are not actually rape but regretful drunken sense, so let's focus on this whenever the subject of rape is brought up, because, uh, reasons. Yeah, makes perfect sense and does not detract from the real issue at all.

Then again to be fair I don't even know what the hell there is to discuss...
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Napero
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:06 am 
 

I shall shut up now.
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somefella
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:46 am 
 

I am very much for the state versus the individual when it comes to crime and punishment, so that might explain my aforementioned draconian views on the matter. Many will disagree, as many already have, but hey I'm just saying. Think of it as you having to manage a team of people who just will NOT cooperate no matter what, so the next guy who tries to be the class clown, you fire the son of a bitch. Not the way how some people would do it, but this is a forum where we can't even agree which Morbid Angel album is the best(obviously its Formulas) so it'd be hard to even reach a slight consensus.

Call it utilitarian if you will, but I'd think it to be perfectly fine to over-punish a few proven-guilty individuals so as to send a deterrence message. You could argue that correlational statistics do not back this argument up, but it could also be argued that the punishment wasn't strong enough then.

But then again I'm a slightly deranged maniac who advocates public beheadings as punishment for murder so take all that with a pinch of salt.
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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:19 am 
 

somefella wrote:
I am very much for the state versus the individual when it comes to crime and punishment, so that might explain my aforementioned draconian views on the matter. Many will disagree, as many already have, but hey I'm just saying. Think of it as you having to manage a team of people who just will NOT cooperate no matter what, so the next guy who tries to be the class clown, you fire the son of a bitch. Not the way how some people would do it, but this is a forum where we can't even agree which Morbid Angel album is the best(obviously its Formulas) so it'd be hard to even reach a slight consensus.

Call it utilitarian if you will, but I'd think it to be perfectly fine to over-punish a few proven-guilty individuals so as to send a deterrence message. You could argue that correlational statistics do not back this argument up, but it could also be argued that the punishment wasn't strong enough then.

But then again I'm a slightly deranged maniac who advocates public beheadings as punishment for murder so take all that with a pinch of salt.


One problem with this sort of view of extreme punishment as a deterrent I think is that it presumes that the criminals in question actually put any thought into the consequences of their actions to begin with. I don't really believe that they do.

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mindshadow
Echoes in an empty cranium

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:20 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
These news stories of course lull us Europeans and North Americans into the false thought that this is a problem of "less civilised" nations on other, less How do we increase reporting (most rapes go unreported), how do we improve prosecution, how do we change attitudes towards women, children or "weaker" men that are being sexually preyed upon? How do we begin to find solutions to perhaps finally eradicate this despicable crime?



Lately there seems no end to media stories here highlighting abuse cases, some beginning as far back back as the late sixties, only just now coming to light because the victims accounts were ignored/covered up for decades. Many of the victims were vulnerable children in care homes,


How do you start? First go through all the institutions, professions (including judicial system), and other high profile organisations, then you will better be able to put your message across to the masses that abuse of any kind will not be tolerated, no matter what your social standing.


"An "old boy network" of officials is deliberately obstructing police investigating decades of alleged abuse at care homes according to the police officer who spearheaded the inquiry."
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somefella
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:19 pm 
 

AppleQueso wrote:
somefella wrote:
I am very much for the state versus the individual when it comes to crime and punishment, so that might explain my aforementioned draconian views on the matter. Many will disagree, as many already have, but hey I'm just saying. Think of it as you having to manage a team of people who just will NOT cooperate no matter what, so the next guy who tries to be the class clown, you fire the son of a bitch. Not the way how some people would do it, but this is a forum where we can't even agree which Morbid Angel album is the best(obviously its Formulas) so it'd be hard to even reach a slight consensus.

Call it utilitarian if you will, but I'd think it to be perfectly fine to over-punish a few proven-guilty individuals so as to send a deterrence message. You could argue that correlational statistics do not back this argument up, but it could also be argued that the punishment wasn't strong enough then.

But then again I'm a slightly deranged maniac who advocates public beheadings as punishment for murder so take all that with a pinch of salt.


One problem with this sort of view of extreme punishment as a deterrent I think is that it presumes that the criminals in question actually put any thought into the consequences of their actions to begin with. I don't really believe that they do.


Which could conceivably be achieved to some extent by making the punishments public and severe enough to invoke fear into all but the most criminally insane. It's no perfect solution, but a possible way to reduce the numbers quite a bit by removing most of those would-be criminals who are on the fence, so to speak.
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:28 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
what I take from this is that castration as punishment doesn't make much/any sense, because the rapists you'd be reaching out to are going to do it voluntarily and the rapists who won't do it voluntarily are (if the penal system works correctly) kept from raping anyways (First in jail/prison, then in psychiatry. Of course since it doesn't work correctly, rape will often happen there as well).

You could forcibly castrate rapists instead of putting them into psychiatry after their penalty, but if that's necessary, and they are likely to rape again it means they haven't become functioning humans again, and castrating them would only turn them into the human equivalent of muzzled dogs with rabies. They can't harm anyone in that specific way, but they still don't belong into society.

Just to be clear, I'm not using "reachable" in the sense of mercy mission. Some allowance, however meager, should be made for recovery or rehabilitation. That's the purpose of parole. Castration alone would probably be minimally effective, particularly across a population. Someone wanting a rapist castrated is like wanting them quartered and fed to dogs: "The defilers should be mutilated." Obviously, any treatment or punishment should be secondary to and following incarceration.

It's a strong point that rape is frequently not about sex, but about power. I'd hypothesize (on a hunch) that overlaps could be found in brain and hormonal activity during lustful rape as during most acts of torturous sadism. Would prison rapes decrease if the food was dosed with antiandrogens? Is the desire to rape by whatever method entirely independent of androgen levels?

Those things won't work on the frat or married portion of the statistics because antiandrogens would have to be put in the water. So no, the chemical approach is only possibly useful after the fact or in the case that an individual sees it coming and takes steps to avoid it. Before it happens it's a matter of culture. I read an article in summer school about a study on cliques and the jocks were across the board the most depraved and abusive. There were star athletes and local celebrities who should have gone to jail on multiple rape counts with a variety of methods but whose star status was so immense that the community forgave them instantly and they were never tried.



Kind of surprised not to see Jesus Cop in this convo..

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:46 pm 
 

Napero, it's not about "revoking consent" or regret. Yes, as you say, I'm sure shitloads of drunken people wind up banging and later regret it. The difference is that, in that case, the person says, "oh man, I had sex with X. I shouldn't have done that." In the case of post-facto rape, it's not *regret*, it's "oh man, I *wouldn't* have had sex with X, was not in any mental state to be giving consent, and was taken advantage of". The former case is someone regretting that they gave consent in the first place, the latter is someone realizing after the fact that it was never given.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:19 pm 
 

Yes, It's like driving a car when drunk and realising you wouldn't have done it if you were sober.

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volutetheswarth
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:45 pm 
 

AppleQueso wrote:
One problem with this sort of view of extreme punishment as a deterrent I think is that it presumes that the criminals in question actually put any thought into the consequences of their actions to begin with. I don't really believe that they do.
somefella wrote:
Which could conceivably be achieved to some extent by making the punishments public and severe enough to invoke fear into all but the most criminally insane. It's no perfect solution, but a possible way to reduce the numbers quite a bit by removing most of those would-be criminals who are on the fence, so to speak.

Nope. If anything it would make the general public feel disgust at the extreme acts of brutal violence condoned by the law. A resistance to such savagery would be inevitable, regardless of the threat of death.

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Burnyoursins
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:22 am 
 

I've got to be entirely honest here, I'm with Balor and Napero. I've already said my bit, and don't have much else to add, but I'm really digging what Napero is trying to get at. This image of women as entirely helpless creatures is kind of pitiful. And I'm not at all saying it's cool to have sex with a woman who's falling all over the fucking place, but if she seems relatively sober, and expresses sexual interest, that seems like reasonable non-verbal consent to me. I mean, people react differently to alcohol, and some people can be totally obliterated, but still seem reasonable sober. If she wakes up in the morning next to whomever, and says, "Well, fuck, I don't remember expressing any interest in fucking this person, I think maybe I've been taken advantage of", that's not really all that fair. I think people are forgetting that usually in those types of situations, the male (or female, I mean, women do rape men sometimes) is ALSO probably very drunk. Let's not kid ourselves, how fucking aware of subtleties are we when we're shitty drunk? Not even kind of. I bet half the time, the guy can't even remember the sex.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:13 am 
 

Consent isn't a subtlety.

Also, way to ignore the entire rebuttal of that argument, extensively explained by several people on this threadpage. You demonstrate an impressive lack of comprehension. Bravo.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:30 pm 
 

Also, how about if there's a possibility AT ALL that the woman is too drunk to give proper consent, you just don't have sex with her? The fact that people seem so eager to toe that line is incredibly worrying.
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somefella
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:18 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Also, how about if there's a possibility AT ALL that the woman is too drunk to give proper consent, you just don't have sex with her? The fact that people seem so eager to toe that line is incredibly worrying.


It would probably be argued that the male person in question is too drunk to tell if proper consent has been given, therefore why is it more his fault than the woman's blahblahblah. Not that I'm trying to be some rape-apologist or something, but just pointing out how the reverse of that might be argued.
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ClaymanOnFire
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:02 pm 
 

somefella wrote:
iamntbatman wrote:
Also, how about if there's a possibility AT ALL that the woman is too drunk to give proper consent, you just don't have sex with her? The fact that people seem so eager to toe that line is incredibly worrying.


It would probably be argued that the male person in question is too drunk to tell if proper consent has been given, therefore why is it more his fault than the woman's blahblahblah. Not that I'm trying to be some rape-apologist or something, but just pointing out how the reverse of that might be argued.

Drinking ProTips: when consuming alcohol, ask yourself, "if I have another beer, will I rape someone?" If the answer is yes, do not have another beer.
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WaywardSon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:18 pm 
 

somefella wrote:
iamntbatman wrote:
Also, how about if there's a possibility AT ALL that the woman is too drunk to give proper consent, you just don't have sex with her? The fact that people seem so eager to toe that line is incredibly worrying.


It would probably be argued that the male person in question is too drunk to tell if proper consent has been given, therefore why is it more his fault than the woman's blahblahblah. Not that I'm trying to be some rape-apologist or something, but just pointing out how the reverse of that might be argued.


"You got it wrong, judge! That bitch shoulda known I was too drunk when I forcibly had sex with her!"
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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:26 pm 
 

It's taking a lot for granted to say that a drunk dude who comes across a shit-faced girl is "just too drunk to know better." He's definitely too drunk to act better, conscience drowned in the chaotic soup that was his abilities in judgement, but that doesn't mollify the act. He's not insane (and unaccountable) just drunk and enjoying callous stupidity. There's a very narrow margin where the line of consent is foggy, which means a pretty small number of dudes who just sort of dim wittedly neglect a conversation and a partner who for one reason or another doesn't say no, but the number's pretty much negligible. Useful to point out that it exists, I think, but accounting for a negligible number of cases and more of an observation of an occasional occurrence than an argument. It certainly isn't useful when the case at hand is clearly one or the other, and I'm a little confused why anyone assumes Napero meant anything like "because some cases are confounded by circumstances, ALL cases should be allowed some margin of error." I didn't read that in his posts, personally.

Most participants, I'll callously assume, know perfectly well what they're doing and then shamefully hide behind their boozed-out haze and wubble whaaaaiiii didn't know she didn't want me to do it to her!!! That's bullshit. It happened to my ex-girlfriend, actually. She was passed out and dude just helped himself, she kind of half woke up in the middle of it, but was too wasted to do anything. He wasn't rough or anything, it was a pretty sheepish and pathetic job, and he probably felt like an asshole afterward, but fuck him. He's still a rapist.

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:44 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
It happened to my ex-girlfriend, actually. She was passed out and dude just helped himself, she kind of half woke up in the middle of it, but was too wasted to do anything. He wasn't rough or anything, it was a pretty sheepish and pathetic job, and he probably felt like an asshole afterward, but fuck him. He's still a rapist.

Absolutely. And see, this is probably what the large majority of rapes (at least in the west) are like. Not the jumping-out-of-the-bushes boogeyman. Yet when people recite the "of course rape is so awful duh!" platitudes, they probably just kind of shrug at situations like your ex-girlfriend's and go "eh, sucks to be her" at best, and more typically the "maybe she should have watched her drinking" BS. That's what's so infuriating about just about every damn discussion of rape I've ever seen. :| And it's also exactly why most rape victims don't come forward and why rape is so under-reported.
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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:46 pm 
 

Through the entire course of human history I'm sure like only 4% of the sex was consensual. They've only started teaching women self defense in the past 100 years and if I know my ancient soldiers of any civilization, fuckers helped themselves.

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:01 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
[:| And it's also exactly why most rape victims don't come forward and why rape is so under-reported.

I hear ya.

It's obscene to a daunting extent how prevalent this is. So it's dope to see responses like the Gulabi Gang form:





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BasqueStorm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:36 pm 
 

ClaymanOnFire wrote:
Drinking ProTips: when consuming alcohol, ask yourself, "if I have another beer, will I rape someone?" If the answer is yes, do not have another beer.

What?!? If you have to make yourself this question, kill yourself NOW.

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
Most participants, I'll callously assume, know perfectly well what they're doing and then shamefully hide behind their boozed-out haze and wubble whaaaaiiii didn't know she didn't want me to do it to her!!! That's bullshit.

I agree. I know what I'm doing even in my worst drunkenness.
The problem is that saying this works in front of a judge.

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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:51 pm 
 

I took a "Psychology of Violence" course at university last Spring, and the person who taught the course is a therapist who works mostly with people in a opioid dependence/detox clinic. I learned a lot in that class, and I lot of people are bringing up topics in this thread which were discussed at length in the course. It sounds like people are talking about rape going unreported because victims feel too ashamed to say that they were raped. It's also a shame that many rape victims shower after the incident occurs to wash off the dirty feeling it gives them, but doing this erases every trace of the rapist and makes it impossible for officials to biologically figure out who it was.

The teacher I mentioned above told me a story once about how he had a client, a woman, who told him about how her ex-boyfriend abused her and raped her on several occasions. His next client was, lo and behold, the rapist in question. Sucks to be a therapist, I guess. :/

I guess the moral of story is always carry mace/pepper spray and don't be afraid to resist. Victim blaming is out of the question!
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:03 pm 
 

No, that's pragmatic advice. The moral is "don't rape".
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:05 pm 
 

I think we'll get people to start carrying pepper spray before we can get people to stop raping. I wouldn't call it pragmatic, I'd call it preventative.

Also, with all of this talk of chemical castration:

Are you guys saying that once a rapist is caught, they are given a drug which takes away their desire to rape and then toss them back into society? That doesn't help the victim. They are going to be traumatized forever. I think the drug is a preventative measure as well, you'd have to give it to everyone when they are born so that no chances are taken in letting a rapist slip through the cracks. Unless there is a way to track someone's development in a certain way to see if they are going to turn out to be a rapist or not, then you wouldn't have to give it to everyone.
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ClaymanOnFire
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:13 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:36 pm 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
ClaymanOnFire wrote:
Drinking ProTips: when consuming alcohol, ask yourself, "if I have another beer, will I rape someone?" If the answer is yes, do not have another beer.

What?!? If you have to make yourself this question, kill yourself NOW.

:-P Sarcasm, bro. Just my smartass response to someone saying a rapist may not be to blame if he/she was drunk at the time.
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volutetheswarth
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:37 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:54 pm 
 

BasqueStorm wrote:
ClaymanOnFire wrote:
Drinking ProTips: when consuming alcohol, ask yourself, "if I have another beer, will I rape someone?" If the answer is yes, do not have another beer.

What?!? If you have to make yourself this question, kill yourself NOW.
ClaymanOnFire wrote:
:-P Sarcasm, bro. Just my smartass response to someone saying a rapist may not be to blame if he/she was drunk at the time.
I totally saw it as him not being serious, to take it otherwise and so violently as well is ridiculous.

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BasqueStorm
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:33 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
No, that's pragmatic advice. The moral is "don't rape".

Rape is wrong and I try to not to do to others what I would not like to be done to me.
It works quite nice.

ClaymanOnFire wrote:
:-P Sarcasm, bro. Just my smartass response to someone saying a rapist may not be to blame if he/she was drunk at the time.

volutetheswarth wrote:
I totally saw it as him not being serious, to take it otherwise and so violently as well is ridiculous.

Sorry, I started reading the thread from start to finish and I wasn't sure but...
So, we agree.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:22 am 
 

THEMICRULAH wrote:
I think we'll get people to start carrying pepper spray before we can get people to stop raping. I wouldn't call it pragmatic, I'd call it preventative.

But you know what "pragmatic" and "moral" means, right?
Anyways, I'm just being pedantic. Move along.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:16 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
No, that's pragmatic advice. The moral is "don't rape".


Genius. Maybe we should ban murder too.

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