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droneriot
RETIRED

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:17 am 
 

Where do I find the results for the smaller parties?
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 4332
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:03 am 
 

Bottom of this page: http://wahl.tagesschau.de/wahlen/2013-0 ... ndex.shtml

I feel kind of silly for not realizing earlier that R/R/G won't happen even if there is a majority.
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DreamOfDarkness
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:09 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:58 pm 
 

It's a bit sad that R/R/G can't get their asses up and work togehter. The party program of those is 70-80% the same, so although "Die Linke" is more left and "Die Grünen" focused on ecology, the core themes are pretty much the same (putting the two health insurance systems together, national minimum wage, ...). If we're especially unlucky, we probably have to re-elect. Because the CDU doesn't have the total majority (>50%), but the other parties won't get the majority either.

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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:34 pm 
 

I think it's pretty certain we'll get a CDU/SPD government. A coalition is necessary to form a government since no party has the absolute majority and R/R/G won't happen so Black/Red is the most obvious choice for the CDU who can pretty much freely pick one of the other parties in parliament since they all want into government (only Die Linke might object to a coalition with the CDU).
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
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droneriot
RETIRED

Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 1:17 pm
Posts: 5240
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:40 am 
 

Good thing Die Linke isn't getting into the government. They're clearly an opposition party out to catch attention with absurd demands, the red/red coalition in Berlin has shown that they don't actually have a clue how to turn any of their bizarre ideas to reality when given the mandate.
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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:01 am 
 

I completely disagree, but since you are not going into specifics I'm not doing it either. Let's just say this: I think it's bizarre what government politics have turned into during the last decade, and Die Linke certainly isn't to blame for that. They couldn't make politics any more absurd than they already are, especially not as a junior partner in a triple-coaltion, and while I certainly don't agree with them on all issues I support their general sentiment (which is far from populist attention seeking but rooted in principles which is something the other parties clearly lack).
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If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
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DreamOfDarkness
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:09 pm
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:40 pm 
 

I have to agree on that. While Die Linke makes some ambitioned (and maybe unrealistic) claims, they won't be able to realize them when being in a R/R/G coalition. Maybe they even bring some controversial themes back to discussion - something the current government clearly lacks.

Something that weirds me a out a little is that no party except for the Pirates brought up the NSA issue. In my opinion Merkel and the government as a whole broke their oath of protecting the people. They knowingly allowed another state's security service to freely check and filter the private data of all German people who use the internet. But of couse, it all happened in the name of terror prevention and Obama is the absolute nice guy who would never misuse the data... -.-'

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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:35 pm 
 

Indeed. You'd think Die Piraten would have benefitted from the scandal, but they only gained 0,2 percent and even the AfD, a silly populist party that wants to abolish the Euro, easily beat them.

At least I remember Gysi critically but briefly addressing the NSA affair in a recent speech.
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
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DreamOfDarkness
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:09 pm
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 4:35 pm 
 

Mabe it just takes time for most people to realize the importance of this issue. Back in the 70's a few 'wackos' were protesting against nuclear power plants and now, almost 40 years later, society finally realizes that nuclear power is not a way to go for the future. I think it will be similar on the NSA/internet freedom issue (I hope it won't take as long, though). However, I don't know if so many people ignore the problem because of the lack of technical knowledge or because of ignorance and naivety.

Politically they could have adressed the issue much more agressively. It affects most Germans, and Merkel surely screwed up on that one. It would be the perfect topic to attack the current government and to make the people think.... "Hätte, hätte, Fahrradkette"

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VariedTastes
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:24 pm
Posts: 140
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:23 am 
 

Quite honestly, I'm completely fine with the government being able to check internet data. Who cares if the FBI knows that you enjoy metal, video games, and a good yank every once and a while?
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:25 am 
 

While that is probably the most prevalent opinion on the subject it's also the most idiotic and naive one.
It's like people have never even heard of the Stasi or do honestly believe that our western capitalist states have no authoritarian potential.
Surveillance is an enabler for authoritarianism. And everyone who has that silly "nothing to hide" attitude is an enabler for both.
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
Personally, I prefer to know nothing of the esoteric hierarchy of MA and the profane rituals required to attain rank.

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VariedTastes
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:24 pm
Posts: 140
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:46 am 
 

And people who possess such laughable fears are to be pitied.
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VariedTastes
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:24 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:57 am 
 

Ah, yes. The classic conspiracy theorist's/government fearing man's insult. :lol:

I see you've deleted your somewhat foolish post.
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inhumanist
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:00 am 
 

Wow, you are incredibly obnoxious.
Every concern can be called a conspiracy theory to immediately smother any discussion. It's a good strategy for people who don't actually have any counterarguments (not that lumping educated predictions about the usefulness of widespread surveillance for the ruling class together with stuff like "the guvment faked the moon landing" and "the guvment hides aliens from us" makes any sense anyways). You made three condescending, obnoxious posts void of anything resembling a point and are even pleased with yourself. Whatever, you are obviously not interested in a discussion. For anyone who cares: My deleted post simply said "Lemming.", but then I remembered that singular insults aren't really my style.
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
Personally, I prefer to know nothing of the esoteric hierarchy of MA and the profane rituals required to attain rank.

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VariedTastes
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:24 pm
Posts: 140
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:58 am 
 

But I wasn't calling your concern a conspiracy theory. I was merely pointing out the fact that the word "lemming" is brought out when its user has nothing to back up their opinions, and is most often used by conspiracy theorists and government fearers. You hardly had an argument to begin with. Sure, living under the Stasi or KGB would suck, but those were formed by political entities that were already oppressive. Interestingly enough, East Germany was not a western capitalist state. Care to provide topical examples? And it's not like a law would have prevented them from spying on citizens. Surveillance is not an enabler for authoritarianism. It's simply a tool to be used however the government sees fit, just like everything else.


Don't respond to my post yet, it's not finished. I'll edit this later.
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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 2592
Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 1:03 pm 
 

You don't need to think a surveillance state is a precursor to authoritarianism to forcefully object to it. The potential for individuals within a government to abuse their surveillance powers alone is enough of an objection. The NSA has already admitted that some of their analysts used surveillance tools to spy on lovers.

Let me simplify it for you. The NSA's spying tools are the digital equivalent of implanting a physical computer chip in your body that not only can track your every movement, but can also read all of your mail, find out who you have been calling, and also listen to every phone call you make. Would you be comfortable with the government secretly implanting such a device in you? The only difference is this isn't physically intrusive, but every other aspect is just as intrusive.

Moreover, NSA documents confirm that in order to get such a global surveillance system in place, they had to manipulate the international organizations responsible for setting up internet security standards. You know that little locking symbol that appears to the left of some websites, telling you this is a secure network? Well, it isn't---"secure" networks have hidden backdoors so the government can get in. They were deliberately put there for the NSA. And any hacker in the world who wants your credit card information, your social security number, your banking information---any hacker can get it. It's just a matter of finding the backdoor.

In other words, this is more than just an issue of whether you have anything to hide from the government. They've also made it easier for everyone who doesn't work for the government to hack into your computer. I don't think I need to tell you how many people get their identities stolen through the internet. The NSA hasn't made the world a safer place with their surveillance, they've manifestly made it less safe.
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DreamOfDarkness
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:09 pm
Posts: 183
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:51 pm 
 

It should be the aim of a government to protect the people. In this case they have to decide between protecting the physical life of the people by (maybe) preventing terrorist attacks and between protecting the privacy of all citizens. And in my opinion the latter is clearly the more important thing to protect. However, the past government failed at this and decided to allow the GSCQ and NSA to spy every single person who uses the internet, one of the reasons I'm a bit disappointed by the results of the election, which clearly shows the ignorance of most people. It's not as easy to grab the surveillance when it's done without you noticing anything, but just the fact that it does not physically harm anyone lets so many forget the possible dangers of a government that knows everything about the private life of its citizens. If we ever get a more authoritan government (which will eventually happen), they have all their desired information layed out nicely already.

I'm asking: What is this surveillance all for? "Preventing terriorist attacks" is a pretty lame answer. How many people die because of those attacks? Compare that to the number of people who commit suicide because they got a burn-out. Compare it to the fatalities by car accidents, wrong medial treatment, untreated alcohol addiction,...
The western governments took the diffuse fear of terrorism and utilized it to violate the human rights without anyone caring. The best way to fight terrorism is to ignore it - it is the aim of terrorism to fear the people. This maybe sounds like a conspiracy theory, but the documents released by Manning and Snowden show exactly this. Every IT expert will tell you that the secret services have backdoors built into many devices and also in software. The ignorance by the politicians is still mind-boggling.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 4332
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:06 pm 
 

Quote:
Don't respond to my post yet, it's not finished. I'll edit this later.

Too late now.

VariedTastes wrote:
Care to provide topical examples? And it's not like a law would have prevented them from spying on citizens. Surveillance is not an enabler for authoritarianism. It's simply a tool to be used however the government sees fit, just like everything else.

Of course a style of government becomes more likely to be implemented when the tools that make it viable become available. But it's not only the fact that it is surveillance on a scale never seen before - it's the fact that projects like Prism are secretive, barely democratically grounded and so absolutely excessive that should make any reasonable person worried. There aren't many things surveillance can be used for. It's normally sold to the people as a means of upholding the law and defense. But fact is that it is an extremely powerful tool controlled by a very small hirarchy of people, and barely any way of keeping them from abusing their power. Currently we are constantly seeing laws being changed and abolished to make surveillance practices legal that weren't legal before, but were in use anyways. The law, something that is at least in theory under democratic control, isn't, never was the guideline for these practices. It's just a pesky obstacle for the people within politics and industry who are advancing their agendas of extending their control over everything. Not conspiracy-like - simply because it's what they always do. What they need to do in order to preserve their positions.
They don't even need to be ill-meaning, after all they know they are in the right and know what's best for us. That's why they need to keep in charge.

NSA spied on Martin Luther King, other Vietnam War critics
Lawmakers Who Upheld NSA Phone Spying Received Double the Defense Industry Cash
National police unit monitors 9,000 'domestic extremists'
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
Personally, I prefer to know nothing of the esoteric hierarchy of MA and the profane rituals required to attain rank.

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mayonesa
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:10 pm
Posts: 104
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:02 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
It's like people have never even heard of the Stasi or do honestly believe that our western capitalist states have no authoritarian potential.


Obviously they have no idea what "mob rule" really is. It's a group of people reacting to fears.

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