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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
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Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:36 pm 
 

For those not following, the capital of the Ukraine, Kiev, has been hosting protests for a couple of months now. Other people can surely provide more detailed background but it basically seems as if the country is caught in a split between poorer people wanting the country to join the EU and wealthier, powerful people (the government included) are determined to ally themselves with Russia, who have expressed their disdain for the idea of Ukraine joining the EU and have threatened to cut investment funds and other types of support should the country do so. What started as an Occupy-like protest movement has turned into pretty violent revolutionary type stuff the past few days. Here's a live feed of the front lines:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/euromajdan/pop-out

Those fires are the old front lines of the protest side, which were built partially with tires which were set ablaze and are now being stoked. I guess the cops/militia are on the far side of it. There's shitloads of video of earlier events, too. Lame as Reddit can be this thread actually has a bunch of it compiled in one place:

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1vq9vh/ukraines_capital_is_literally_revolting_livestream/

Totally crazy stuff. I'd love to hear from people who are there now or have other ties to the country who can help explain the situation.
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Diamhea
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:37 pm 
 

Yeah I just watched the video you posted on the chat. Holy mother of chaos.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:38 pm 
 

Poor people who want their country to join the EU are massively delusional.

Has Greece taught them nothing?
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:47 pm 
 

It's the lesser of two evils, althought they don't view it that way.
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Napero
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:48 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Poor people who want their country to join the EU are massively delusional.

Has Greece taught them nothing?

No, but I hope Greece has taught the rest of the Union something...
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:52 pm 
 

The country is geographically and culturally divided in 2, the Ukrainians (who speak Ukrainian) who wants the country to join the EU and the Russians who are pro Poutine (the president is Russian). It's totally related to the implosion of the USSR but like 20 years after the deed. Russia, the #1 oil producer in the world, has weird relations with the country and has been finding new ways to export its ressources to avoid using Ukraine as a middleman (mainly with oleoducs in the Baltic Sea), but still, Ukraine is the more important transit for Russia (80%, 90% of Russian gas is circulating through the country). This created a dependency for Russian gas for Ukraine (and this goes for most of Western Europe too). It's really a conflict about natural ressources and politicians pushing their agendas. Considering Russia has immense reserves, this will not be solved anytime soon. I don't see Ukraine joining the UE too, Poutine will do whatever he can for that not to happen since he can control this ex sovietic satellite better if it's within its grasp.

Let's see what will happen with this movement, hopefully it won't degenerate into a full blown civil war...
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:10 pm 
 

Napero wrote:
No, but I hope Greece has taught the rest of the Union something...

The one thing the people need to learn is that Merkel has them all by the balls. We're the biggest profiteer in the European Union while others (like Greece) fall into ruin. Yet nobody dares to blame us, it's always the immigrants or lazy southerners or whoever. It's a bit off topic, but here are some further thoughts on the matter:

Spoiler: show
Quote:
Simon Hix, professor of European politics at the London School of Economics, said: "You feel the shadow of the Berlin government in the [EU-]parliament ... It's rare that anything happens ... that's against the interests of German industry."

[...] An internal Commission report, seen by Reuters, shows there are already 45 Germans in the senior jobs in that institution - at departmental director level or above - more than France and well exceeding Italy or Britain, who each have fewer than 30.

Germany has focused on areas where the Commission has most power such as economic affairs, antitrust enforcement and other regulatory departments. Trade is also important. The EU ambassador to China, Markus Ederer, is a German.

[...]"The German approach is that they don't want to be bothered with the world," [Daniel Cohn-Bendit] said. "National economic interests is the limit of their thinking. It wants to have economic leadership and, in foreign policy, to be like Luxembourg."


http://www.euractiv.com/priorities/merkels-europe-men-run-brussels-news-531304

A slightly more polemic interpretation:

Quote:
The reason people continue to vote for the CDU and SPD [the government coalition] lies in the hierarchy of needs. Things such as freedom of assembly, postal privacy, inviolability of the home, for the people that has a much lower priority than a roof over the head and food on the plate. While Merkel didn't improve on those she did the next most obvious thing and laid waste to Greece. This reminded the Germans how good they have it and how quickly it can go downhill with civilization.


http://blog.fefe.de/?ts=ac3c1c74
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Last edited by inhumanist on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:13 pm 
 

Poor people can only gain by joining the eu ,with it's policy of practically unrestricted people movement, but many here (mainly low paid workers) are increasingly concerned by the numbers coming in, especially after the last government didn't sign up to the restrictions France and Germany did. To add to the problem are people who automatically call anyone calling for a cap in numbers - racist.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:15 pm 
 

This is a thread about Ukraine, not UKraine.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:26 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Yet nobody dares to blame us, it's always the immigrants or lazy southerners or whoever

mindshadow wrote:
Poor people can only gain by joining the eu ,with it's policy of practically unrestricted people movement, but many here (mainly low paid workers) are increasingly concerned by the numbers coming in, especially after the last government didn't sign up to the restrictions France and Germany did. To add to the problem are people who automatically call anyone calling for a cap in numbers - racist.

Q.E.D.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:05 pm 
 

Ukraine is sooo much better off cozying up to Russia than the EU! They are worried about being dominated by outside powers? Well fair enough. Ukraine would be a secondary partner with Russia. But they'd be a flat-out colony of the EU! Then again, that's what it's all designed for. One continental central bank is easier to control than 45 national central banks.

It's just so sad that the former Soviet bloc thinks the antidote to their historical poison of communism is the *freedom* and *opportunity* of EU capitalism. They are two paths to the same ultimate goal: all money and power held by a limited clique. Only approached in reverse. Capitalists get rich then use their wealth to buy political power, whole communists gain power then use the force of the state to expropriate wealth. People pick sides based on whether they prefer propaganda about freedom (capitalists) or propaganda about equality (socialists). It's all lies.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:28 pm 
 

Religion also has the same goal: Trick people into voluntarily giving you money and power because only you can convince the invisible space pickle to save their souls. Fascism too: Make people believe in your leadership towards the nationalistic garden of eden, get all the money and bitches power in the process. Feudalism: Receive Excalibur from the Lady of the Lake - become King of Britain by divine providence - rule a self perpetuating autocracy and exploit peasants (they're too stupid to do anything about it) until you die from an unexpected ear infection. Anarcho-syndicalist-commune: Take the turn as the week's executive officer, bypass ratification procedure, ignore majority rule, if anyone complains threaten to hold your breath until you suffocate. Galactic empire: Master the dark side of the force, wipe out the jedi and the rebels, take their credits and spend it all on pod-racing bets.

You see, everything is actually exactly the same. Except the brand of metaphysically legitimized neo-aristotelic 100% organic and low-carbon-footprint aristocracy which I advocate. That one is to the advantage of all. Well, except jews and short people of course.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 9:57 pm 
 

It's nice and all to be anti EU, but it greatly enhanced the wealth of most nations in it.
The reason why greek has gone belly up is more closely related to the death of their biggest asset, their merchant navy than the EU doing things that are not kosher.
Yes i do not agree with all the things the EU has done, but in terms of nasty decisions powerpolitics wise i'd rather live in the EU than anywhere else...

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:51 pm 
 

I wish I knew/was acquainted with more than the 1 or 2 Ukrainian immigrants I know so I could understand the political nuances better.

All I can say is that (perhaps predictably) to the extent U.S. media is covering this at all, it mostly falls into the "Putin sphere of influence increasing=bad" line of thought. And Ukrainian ____ has never really been something I've focused on, so unfortunately my only perspective here is media derived.


Hoping to read more thoughts from the board's Ukrainians. Stay safe if you're in Kiev. :)
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:07 am 
 

inhumanist, i can't tell if your long-ass post was your serious thoughts, or a sarcastic stab at mine. Was fun to read though!

Anyway, Ukraine: Russia swooped to the rescue already.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSB ... 7?irpc=932

The terms of this bailout are far, far more generous than any austerity-strings-attached welcome aboard package the EU could have offered! Do they have ulterior motives, i.e. keeping the idea of a Eurasian customs union alive? Of course! But let's not pretend the EU is anywhere near pure-hearted, and wants Ukraine's membership just for the good of Ukraine. You take what you can get, and right now Ukraine can get more from Russia than from the Continental Empire.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:09 am 
 

...You do realize that article is from December 17th, right? ...Right?
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I_Am_Vengeance
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:54 am 
 

Looks like they are sending some tanks in - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSQ989fCrbU
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Ohrwurm
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:39 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
It's nice and all to be anti EU, but it greatly enhanced the wealth of most nations in it.
The reason why greek has gone belly up is more closely related to the death of their biggest asset, their merchant navy than the EU doing things that are not kosher.
Yes i do not agree with all the things the EU has done, but in terms of nasty decisions powerpolitics wise i'd rather live in the EU than anywhere else...


I agree completely. The EU is far from perfect and needs to be democratisized, but it's certainly better than anywhere else.
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VariedTastes
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:00 am 
 

Ohrwurm wrote:
tomcat_ha wrote:
It's nice and all to be anti EU, but it greatly enhanced the wealth of most nations in it.
The reason why greek has gone belly up is more closely related to the death of their biggest asset, their merchant navy than the EU doing things that are not kosher.
Yes i do not agree with all the things the EU has done, but in terms of nasty decisions powerpolitics wise i'd rather live in the EU than anywhere else...


I agree completely. The EU is far from perfect and needs to be democratisized, but it's certainly better than anywhere else.


Yep. There are plenty of people who complain about the EU but it's about the best political system in the world at the moment. There will always be something better, but it's very hard to get people to agree on what's best, especially when multiple interests are represented.
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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:26 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
...You do realize that article is from December 17th, right? ...Right?


Yeah I know that deal was a month old. But it's still pertinent because obviously the protesters haven't taken notice. They are still out there, pissed at the government for backing out on the EU, despite Russia having offered something better!
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mindshadow
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:32 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
This is a thread about Ukraine, not UKraine.


Every time another country joins it has an effect here. When people voted in 1975 they were told it was for a common market.The public didn't realise, or were ever told what it was really all about.


tomcat_ha wrote:
It's nice and all to be anti EU, but it greatly enhanced the wealth of most nations in it.
The reason why greek has gone belly up is more closely related to the death of their biggest asset, their merchant navy than the EU doing things that are not kosher.
Yes i do not agree with all the things the EU has done, but in terms of nasty decisions powerpolitics wise i'd rather live in the EU than anywhere else...


It has certainly Increased the wealth of the wealthy.
I suspect there are many factors why Greece is struggling, for one it has never had the wealth of an industrialized nation, so it was not on an even footing to start with. Plus their politicians were very keen, like ours.

People must always be able to vote for their political system.
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Fulgurius
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:34 pm 
 

It is not as much "pro-EU" action as "anti-Yanukovych and his party" protest. It has indeed started in November as pro-EU demonstrations, but situation has changed after what the authorities did on November 30th. Recent escalation of conflict has been caused by the new laws accepted by the pro-Yanukovych parliamentary majority few days ago as well as other outraging things done by the authorities, such as the attacks on activists, arrests and disappearance of dozens of people, the use of "titushkos", etc. You may read the following Wikipedia articles that describe the development of situation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-prote ... in_Ukraine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hrush ... reet_riots

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naverhtrad
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:21 pm 
 

Having lived in Eastern Europe (Kazakhstan) for several months, I followed the Yanukovych election back in '10; I remember being relieved that he won. Ukrainian politics has been notoriously dirty ever since the USSR broke up, but I just remember thinking 'oh well, at least he isn't a Nazi'. I still feel that way, especially given the way radical right-wingers have taken control of these protests. And Nazis protesting FOR the EU speaks volumes, I'm afraid... about the EU.

And I have to agree with severzhavnost. Russia is the natural choice of partner for Ukraine, geographically, culturally, religiously and economically. And, ulterior motives or no ulterior motives, the bailout deal from Russia was incredibly generous - especially considering that it kept Ukraine from going completely tits-up financially (as in, government bankruptcy and debt default).

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Gus Kiriakis
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:57 am 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
It's nice and all to be anti EU, but it greatly enhanced the wealth of most nations in it.
The reason why greek has gone belly up is more closely related to the death of their biggest asset, their merchant navy than the EU doing things that are not kosher.
Yes i do not agree with all the things the EU has done, but in terms of nasty decisions powerpolitics wise i'd rather live in the EU than anywhere else...


mindshadow wrote:
It has certainly Increased the wealth of the wealthy.
I suspect there are many factors why Greece is struggling, for one it has never had the wealth of an industrialized nation, so it was not on an even footing to start with. Plus their politicians were very keen, like ours.

People must always be able to vote for their political system.


Hi, a 34-year-old Greek here. Having felt the entire thing here on my skin, I can tell you one thing for sure. The entire situation in Greece is Milton Friedman's wetdream coming true. Heck, the entire global situation we are in is exactly that. In my opinion it's the system that's flawed at its core, not something that Greece/EU/you name it did or didn't do.

Wherever you look you see civil unrest for political decisions affecting millions in a negative way while on the other hand makes the rich richer. Ukraine? That's the latest episode. What you wanna talk about? UK? Sweden? Ireland? Germany? Italy? Portugal? Spain? Or move away from EU to US, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Turkey, etc, etc?

I hope the people of Ukraine really make a positive impact on their own welfare instead of making rich richer and poor poorer after this ordeal is over. However I fear that it will not end well because societies are getting more conservative as the problem continues and far right/fascist parties are rising and trying to get a solid foothold both on national and EU politics.

And yes, I totally agree that people should always be able to vote for their political system. On the other hand that's not enough. People should always be active citizens for every single day of the year instead of assigning to politicians their welfare through elections.
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Last edited by Gus Kiriakis on Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OneSizeFitzpatrick
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:12 pm 
 

As someone who lives in the United States, I feel like I'm not really knowledgeable enough to offer insightful comments on some of these really big protests that keep sprouting up all over Europe but, I have noticed that behind almost all of them, the radical right keeps popping up as the rallying cry for the protests, which kinda worries me since over here we kinda look to Europe as being the forefront for liberal ideas and "progressive" thinking, I'm not saying either situation is gonna be a win for the Ukrainians as a whole but if these goddamn neo-nazis keep gaining political power in Hungary, Greece, Ukraine, etc it won't end well for anyone.
Also, maybe this means nothing today but the whole Oligarchic system that was pretty entrenched in Slavic nations basically up until the October Revoluton seem like they might play a role in why these countries keep sliding back into the whole "ruling elite" ideas ever since the fall of Communism-that's just my take on it, again, I'm not exactly well-versed in Europe's history, but it doesn't mean I'm not thoroughly interested in it.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:35 pm 
 

Well the pendulum swings back and forth. Remember that most of europe is aging and older people tend to become more right wing and conservative. I guess more than a few are disillusioned from what their student protests tried to acomplish till in the 80's.
Eastern europe however got more and more racist after the dissollution of the CCCP. They've always been racist but before the communists managed to control that mostly.

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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:40 pm 
 

Gus Kiriakis wrote:
Hi, a 34-year-old Greek here. Having felt the entire thing here on my skin, I can tell you one thing for sure. The entire situation in Greece is Milton Friedman's wetdream coming true.


Considering Friedman's wetdream involved the Euro never existing, I think Greeks would have been much better off if his wildest fantasies
had come true....
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Arkhane
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:31 pm 
 

That live feed is just beautiful... literally. Lights everywhere, fires, walls of tires, and they are shooting the riot cops with firecrackers and hitting them with Molotov cocktails. Its just awesome.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:46 pm 
 

it was bad sure.
but shit got real now
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OzzyApu
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:49 am 
 

Turned on the feed for kicks and saw molotovs and stuff blowing up within seconds.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:15 pm 
 

Pretty interesting map to understand the subject.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... es-crisis/
Image
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Gus Kiriakis
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 7:29 am 
 

That's one side of the coin. Reading the comments below the analysis shows a different story. Either could be (partially) right or wrong. I think that Ukrainians could tell us more.
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Fulgurius
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:24 am 
 

Metantoine wrote:
Pretty interesting map to understand the subject.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... es-crisis/
Image

That map is outdated by few days when it comes to the current protests. Here is the situation with the protests as of today:
Image
The red regions are where the protesters have seized the administrative buildings. Pink are the ones where there are attempts to seize or block the administrative buildings. Yellow are the mass protests. Grey are the ones where the mass demonstrations were brutally dispersed by the police yesterday. Blue are the ones with only small protests, most of the people there support Yanukovych. Besides, all Ukrainian ultras (radical football fans), even in the blue regions, support the protests and guard the protesters from the police.

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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:14 pm 
 

So, the same pamphlets that were dumped on the NATO pumped Arab spring protests have shown up in Ukraine. This gives me pause, that the same phoney bologna astro-turf revolution industry may be behind the scenes here. I have noticed a careful avoidance of mentioning the Nazi groups prominent in these events by western media the same way they avoided mentioning the Al-Qaeda, other Islamist groups, and militarization of the rebels before the initial protests in Syria for so long. I hope Ukraine doesn't become another Syria and that westerners won't mindlessly accept the same kind of propaganda.
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:41 pm 
 

Eh, it's probably just the usual Gene Sharp worship, though I would say there's more reason to wonder in this case then there was in the Arab Spring. That was just way too broad and had too much spontaneity, this is fairly small by comparison.
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naverhtrad
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 7:44 pm
Posts: 49
Location: China
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:53 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
phoney bologna astro-turf revolution industry


I have to steal that. Seems pretty a propos here!

Earthcubed wrote:
Eh, it's probably just the usual Gene Sharp worship, though I would say there's more reason to wonder in this case then there was in the Arab Spring. That was just way too broad and had too much spontaneity, this is fairly small by comparison.


I'd tend to agree.

But wasn't Gene Sharp supposed to be an advocate of 'nonviolent' protest? These fuckers act like your garden variety brownshirts - 'cept they probably have NED funding.

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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:23 pm 
 

There's always violence at large non-violent protests though. Controlling your members is an inherently difficult thing in a large organization, particularly in something relatively organic like street demonstrations in response to unfolding events (as opposed to annual marches for ___).

Predictably there is also speculation of SVR involvement, particularly with that odd kidnapping story.
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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:17 pm 
 

Ukraine government resigns.
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VariedTastes
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:24 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:02 pm 
 

What the hell is going on in that live feed? Why do the protesters have lightsabers?
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Earthcubed
Peregrinus sine aetate

Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:44 am
Posts: 2510
Location: Orocarni
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:41 pm 
 

Because internet.


It will be interesting to see if the successor government keeps the current course or pivots back to the EU. And how quickly elections happen.
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