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Lord_Jotun
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Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 5:02 pm
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:08 pm 
 

Source: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/turkey-military-coup-what-know-8431313

No room for boredom these days, it seems. Does anyone have any further info or insightful hypotheses about what might be going on and its background? I ran across this through a news report on Italian tv and, as dumb as it sounds, I didn't really see it coming. Opinions?
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Ancient_Mariner
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:31 pm 
 

This wouldn't be the first time the Turkish military overthrew the government when it was moving away from the secular state that modern Turkey was designed to be. Erdogan being gone would be for the best. But who knows what is really going on over there. Maybe a worse group is taking control.

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:31 pm 
 

Wtf I just saw, what's going on??
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raspberrysoda
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:51 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:41 pm 
 

Wow, this month was really fun so far.

The army chose right when they decided to overthrow the government. Erdogan's policies were really strict and basically made free speech not so free. And they did it "for the sake of democracy" so this oughta be good
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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:47 pm 
 

That's why I never saw this coming, even with the aforementioned precedents in mind. Erdogan's rule over the country has become closer and closer to an Orwellian police state by the year; to plan, coordinate and carry out something of this magnitude and keep it covert all the way through must have required some serious skills.
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Master_Of_Thrash
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:47 pm 
 

Looks like the Turkish people want that piece of shit Erdogan out of government. Honestly, I don't really give a flying fuck about what happens in the world anymore because I know there's always a dirty scheme behind everything. Turkey haven't exactly been saints in this whole "fight against ISIS".
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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 5:55 pm 
 

Erdogan has been helping ISIS/ISIL/Dash, or whatever they call it this week, for a long time. Then again we have been helping them too by arming "moderate" rebels in Syria. I just hope this doesn't kill a lot of Turkish people.

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raumr
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:11 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:04 pm 
 

Turkey is (on paper) a secular state, so the army is hopefully just defending the Constitution from the more and more islamist rule of Erdogan. Perhaps this could be a positive thing, since Erdogan is a piece of shit in my book.

Obviously, I hope no civilians are hurt. I heard that Erdogan is urging people to take to the streets in opposition to the army. This could mean unrest for a time.

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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 6:18 pm 
 

This would be I think the 5th time since modern Turkey was established that this has happened, and it turned out OK the prior times . I Hope that is the case here.

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severzhavnost
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Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:08 pm 
 

Well, Turkey couldn't get rid of Erdogan when they tried it legally - Constitutional Court came up one vote of short of ordering his party disbanded and all members barred from positions of power back in 2008. So I guess it had to happen this way.

raumr wrote:
I heard that Erdogan is urging people to take to the streets in opposition to the army. This could mean unrest for a time.


That alone should confirm to everyone what a slimeball and budding dictator this guy is. Begging the citizens to fight for his hold on power, which is at best semi-legitimate to begin with. :nono: Also, isn't inciting violence for political goals pretty much the definition of terrorism?
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Earthcubed
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:31 pm 
 

For whatever little it's worth, a friend of mine who grew up there and used to be politically involved thinks Erdogan instigated a "coup" that's actually a fake so he could say he crushed it.
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raumr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:53 pm 
 

Yeah, I don't want to get all tinfoil-y, but there are a lot of details that are suspicious about this whole affair. Hopefully things will clear up soon, but even as the sun rises, I was watching a stream not too long ago in Ankara where gunfire was still hear sporadically.

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Yayattasa
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:57 pm 
 

Apparently it's over. Erdogan had fled to Germany for asylum (denied it seems), then back to Turkey. One of Turkey military forces initiated it (led by colonels it seems, no general names have been disclosed). The military in Turkey doesn't really answer to the PM, but the police do, so clashes between soldiers and policemen started in Ankara, Istanbul, airports and in the bridges at the Bosphorus.
Attacks on TV stations and several civilian casualties.
Loyalist military and democratic civilian forces did not accept the coup; soldiers surrendered to the police.
Opposition parties, Kemalists and even kurds denounced the coup as undemocratic.

Now Erdogan moved back to Turkey at the Ataturk airport "triumphantly"; says traitors will be dealt with. That's probably an excuse to oust more and more military leaderships in favor his loyalists.

EDIT: He didn't even leave Turkey in the first place. He was in his holidays in the south. Wondering why the coup didn't try to down his plane (it's readily visible even in commercial, civilian air traffic trackers). Also wondering why the soldiers left Ataturk right when Erdogan was going to land.
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Last edited by Yayattasa on Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Von Cichlid
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:01 am
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:02 am 
 

The sun rises in the east and sets in the west. An islamic country experiences turmoil.

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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:05 am 
 

Oh shit, really? This is starting to look really goddamn bad.

Whether this was a legitimate attempt to oust ErDOGan or a facade to portray him as a hero, I can see no other realistic outcome other than his regime tightening the screws even further - meaning things are going from bad to worse than ever.

Waking up to dreadful news seems to be the norm these days :(
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Expedience
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 5:34 am 
 

Sounds like a facade to me. How could anyone let alone a senior military officer think this would succeed?

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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:36 am 
 

+160 dead, hundreds to thousands arrested. Also, High Court judges and prosecutors sacked.
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Lord_Jotun
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:45 am 
 

Death toll already escalating towards 200. Whatever took place is looking worse and worse :( And the future is looking bleak indeed.

Isn't it cute how erDOGan suddenly became a fan of social media, tv and people taking it to the streets all of a sudden? Or how after years of internet censorship Chinese-style he was encouraging people to fight back the evil military via FaceLive (or whatever it was) from the safety of his plane, trying to haul ass to continental Europe? Fucking sickening.
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Derigin
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:37 pm 
 

In the past I used to study military coups - why and how they happen, what a military does once it gains power, and how a military ends up giving up power. That was essentially my graduate thesis, actually.

That said, there was a lot wrong with this coup, even as far as failed coups go; Not wrong because of mistakes or errors on the part of the military or the government, but wrong because certain things don't add up. Events happened that don't normally happen during coups, failed or successful. One of the biggest red flags, for instance, was the way the military gave up the main airport (that Erdogan would happen to later land at) without provocation and at the height of its power grab. Another red flag was how they allowed CNN Turk to stay on air until practically the end of the coup, thus allowing Erdogan a primary conduit for reaching out to the public, but then cut off all other radio and TV news networks. Obviously there might be a suggestion of it being an oversight, but when you're as meticulous to shut down whole swaths of other services - and have the means to do so quick and effectively - why do it half-assed? Especially when you've proven at the start of the coup that you have the effective means to do so? That you're capable.

My own personal assessment of this coup is that Erdogan very likely knew that it was going to happen and how it was going to happen. An extremely paranoid leader wouldn't be caught completely unaware of rebellions in the military if there were warning signs. And, trust me, there's been enough warning signs for months now that articles have been written about it, academically and non-academically. But, he probably also knew how weak the resistance would be, and might have allowed it to go forward knowing he had the upper hand and could benefit from it. I wouldn't blame Erdogan for the coup - I am doubtful he orchestrated it - but the end result now works in his favor. He will use this incident to justify his paranoia, institute even more heavy-handed and harsh laws and policies, reward loyal followers and punish dissidents even further, and likely overturn previous reforms such as the abolishment of the death penalty. While doing all of this he'll use this incident as an easy and justifiable excuse to purge institutions of "disloyal" individuals, in order to entrench his power even further by replacing them with individuals much more loyal to his cause. And, if there's another thing he now knows, it's who among the citizenry is more loyal than disloyal. You couldn't have asked for a more perfect event for his "populist" cause.

EDIT: Another thing to keep in mind is some of the events around the coup attempt pertaining to Erdogan. Firstly, while flying toward Turkey and before landing Erdogan requested asylum at a number of Western European states, including Germany and the UK, and was denied. Secondly, a "rebel" helicopter landed in Greece and its crew has requested asylum, with the assumption that if they are returned they will face penalties not acceptable to Greek laws. Thirdly, Erdogan has placed blame on Fethullah Gülen, who has been living in exile in the United States and is unlikely to be extradited because he will also face penalties not acceptable to American interests. Notice how each of these events might work in favor of Erdogan's approach to foreign policy. You have allies that either refuse to help you or harbor your enemies. You have a traditional enemy and neighbor, but also a NATO "ally," who may offer sanctuary to traitors. The same states that play lip service towards you about working together as comrades essentially abandoned your regime at its time of need. Again, if you were Erdogan you couldn't have asked for a better result.
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Grimbeard
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:09 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:17 pm 
 

Great post Derigin. I was really hoping this was going to be the end of that sociopath.

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severzhavnost
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:05 pm 
 

That was a spectacular failure. Thousands arrested among the military, including a few dozen officers at Colonel or above getting dismissed. More worryingly, both the Constitutional Court and the Council of States have already seen massive purges - probably in order to stack them with new judges who'll support Erdogan reimposing the death penalty. Terrible, terrible day for Turkey.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:36 pm 
 

Derigin wrote:
Thirdly, Erdogan has placed blame on Fethullah Gülen, who has been living in exile in the United States and is unlikely to be extradited because he will also face penalties not acceptable to American interests.

FYI Gulen lives here in PA, and Erdogan has already been trying to get him extradited (with no luck) for a few years now. It's doubtful that Gulen had much to do with the coup. What's strange is his power base has historically been very strong among the police, rather than the military. He seems more like a convenient scapegoat than anything else, a Trotskyesque figure.
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Opus
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:29 pm 
 

Yayattasa wrote:
High Court judges and prosecutors sacked.

I read more than 1200 judges fired! What's that about? What did they do? Have they been opposing Erdogan as a group or what?
I,too, think this has worked out a bit too well for Erdogan.
Just because I'm a conspiracy theorist doesn't mean conspiracy theories aren't real.
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Paganbasque
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:43 am 
 

Grimbeard wrote:
Great post Derigin. I was really hoping this was going to be the end of that sociopath.


Oh you cant be more wrong, the "best" is yet to come. Now Erdogan will become the true dictator that he really wanted to be.

This sort of a coup will be the perfect excuse to make all the reforms he want to do, plus bring back the death penaly. He will reinforce his power and the Turkish people will allow him to do it.

Taking into account how the coup was done and how fast is the government arresting hundreds of judges and other people who are not militars give me the impression that this one was a great lie.

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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:44 am 
 

I would guess that was all Erdogan from the start. A very half assed coup that gave him all the opportunity to massively purge his foes.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:26 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Yayattasa wrote:
High Court judges and prosecutors sacked.

I read more than 1200 judges fired! What's that about? What did they do? Have they been opposing Erdogan as a group or what?
I,too, think this has worked out a bit too well for Erdogan.
Just because I'm a conspiracy theorist doesn't mean conspiracy theories aren't real.

There was that whole corruption investigation a while back that involved a lot of the judiciary system looking into Erdogan and his party.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:39 pm 
 

15,200 education staff, too.
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Opus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:24 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Opus wrote:
I read more than 1200 judges were fired! What's that about?

There was that whole corruption investigation a while back that involved a lot of the judiciary system looking into Erdogan and his party.

Aah, makes sense.
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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:29 pm 
 

Looks like they are suspending European Convention on Human Rights for the "duration of the emergency".

And some EU leaders want Turkey in the EU? :eek:

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Sepulchrave
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2016 6:18 pm 
 

I just saw pics of long banners of the Turkish flag and a banner of Erdogan in a victorious pose on façades of official buildings and I thought: "can you guys really try in not looking like a dictatorial state?"
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lost_wanderer
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Joined: Sun May 22, 2005 4:59 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:23 pm 
 

Ancient_Mariner wrote:
Looks like they are suspending European Convention on Human Rights for the "duration of the emergency".

And some EU leaders want Turkey in the EU? :eek:



They are so corrupted, no wonder England wanted to go out of this deathtrap. What saddens me is that the younger generations wanted to stay in the EU. We are lost

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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:26 pm 
 

I'm not an expert on the Brexit situation, I supported it on a general principal. But yeah if expanding to Turkey is on the table, or was, then getting out may have been for the best. Its like when the UN puts horrible dictatorships on the human rights boards and shit like that. Never got the impression that Turkey was European, though it was always the model secular majority Muslim nation. Hopefully it doesn't lose that.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:42 pm 
 

What are you even talking about? Turkey has been trying to join the EU, but signing back up for the death penalty will be the nail in that coffin.

Erdogan has been getting increasingly dictatorial and increasingly Islamist recently. No middle ground in Turkey's future, I don't think; either he tightens his grip on control or a second coup actually succeeds. No way that guy stays in power as any sort of reasonable leader.
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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:53 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
What are you even talking about? Turkey has been trying to join the EU, but signing back up for the death penalty will be the nail in that coffin.

Erdogan has been getting increasingly dictatorial and increasingly Islamist recently. No middle ground in Turkey's future, I don't think; either he tightens his grip on control or a second coup actually succeeds. No way that guy stays in power as any sort of reasonable leader.


I just hope that Turkey doesn’t lose it secular nature. If he gets his way I'm thinking it would be another theocracy.

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quickbeam
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:09 am
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:37 pm 
 

lost_wanderer wrote:
Ancient_Mariner wrote:
Looks like they are suspending European Convention on Human Rights for the "duration of the emergency".

And some EU leaders want Turkey in the EU? :eek:



They are so corrupted, no wonder England wanted to go out of this deathtrap. What saddens me is that the younger generations wanted to stay in the EU. We are lost


Dear, oh dear...

Does it bother you that the new UK prime minister isn't such a fan of the ECHR herself?

'Deathtrap' :lol:

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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:41 pm 
 

Teresa May is not a very appealing PM if I was a Brit.

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droneriot
cisgender

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Location: Spahn Ranch
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 3:55 pm 
 

Austrian foreign minister about pro-Erdogan demonstrations in Vienna: If you want to participate in Turkish politics, go to Turkey. That's the kind of bluntness at the right time I love. Not the Trump bluntness every time he opens his mouth whether appropriate or not, but at the right time when someone needs to say okay we're always good for diplomacy, but right now it's time you shut the fuck up. Germany's foreign minister would squirm in a dozen random directions before ever doing something like that.
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Ancient_Mariner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:57 pm 
 

Is it Austrian Muslims protesting?

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droneriot
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 6:01 pm 
 

Yeah Turkish Austrians protesting (in a foreign country, retarded but their right) and attacking a Kurdish restaurant (their stepping over the line and being told to fuck off.)
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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:27 pm 
 

Conservative Kurds are somehow glad Erdogan wasn't toppled (the army is a far worse enemy).
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