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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:55 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Privileged old white men

Are you refering to the likes of Dawkins? What privilege is that exactly?


Last edited by Morrigan on Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Split from this thread: http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=101013

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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:59 pm 
 

Have you seen 12 Monkeys? "Psychology is the new religion, we're the ones deciding who is insane and who isn't". Couple that with a few good readings of "One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest" for good measure.

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Privileged old white men


Are you refering to the likes of Dawkins? What privilege is that exactly?



It's called "The Privelege of Being a White Man".
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:02 pm 
 

THEMICRULAH wrote:



It's called "The Privelege of Being a White Man".[/quote]

Yes, specifically, what is his privilege?

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7541
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:06 pm 
 

1) Whiteness
2) Maleness
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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 881
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:12 am 
 

People still buy that being a white male is somehow a privilege?
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am
Posts: 7541
Location: Innsmouth
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:58 am 
 

Your fedora is showing.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9543
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:03 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Your fedora is showing.

:lol:
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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darkeningday
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
Posts: 1890
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:11 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
People still buy that being a white male is somehow a privilege?

I think there are particular sectors of society where being a WASPM may not be boon (though I firmly believe that nowhere is it a blight), but on the whole? HELL TO THE FUCK YEAH it's easier to have a peach penis than any other color/genital combination (with the possible exception of rolling double sixes with your genes if you're a white woman--there are studies that show extremely attractive women can sometimes have a leg up over everyone else, but there definitely needs to be more research before anyone can draw final conclusions with this).
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:00 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
People still buy that being a white male is somehow a privilege?


Hilariously, yes. I mean, in most first world countries, it's obviously mostly just blatant lying or incredible ignorance.

iamntbatman wrote:
1) Whiteness
2) Maleness


Specifically, what privilege does that afford me here in Ireland? Give me some examples of how I've benefited by being male in my life. I'd definitely concede that being black would be pretty shit, but then a lot of the blacks here are Nigerian and bring some immensely shitty culture with them, while also being total bros. Don't get me wrong, I've been to places where it certainly is true (it was awesome as all Hell being in Japan and being waited on hand and foot by women), but from the western countries that I've visited, male privilege is strangely elusive.

AppleQueso wrote:
BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:


If Rebecca Watson is your idea of radical then... lol.


She's more the tip of the iceberg, and a more friendly face for the censorship and thought controlling side of feminism. Espousing ideas such equating being hit on as some creeper move is generally a good indication of what's underneath.

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BaloroftheEvilEye
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:48 am 
 

If both produce irrational reactions and responses, those responses and reactions should not be treated seriously. Doesn't mean you don't treat the person seriously, you just ignore whatever crazy shit that comes out of them.

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Gypaetus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:46 am 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Things


I can't speak for people in countries outside of Aus, but from my experience as someone that doesn't have this supposed white male privilege, I really can't think of a single example in my life where not having it has been a disadvantage, or made me miss out on any opportunities or get treated badly. Conversely, I've heard more than my fair share of stories of white males going through incredibly tough times, particularly in cases regarding the court system and custody battles. Of course, personal experience doesn't mean that this applies everywhere (or anywhere outside of my own social circle), but I can't think of any clear cut examples in first world Westernized countries where white males are particularly privileged over other demographics. Even in this thread, people have started throwing around the term but no one's given an example of what it is, aside from saying it's 'whiteness' and 'maleness'. Funny, sure, but is the mocking really necessary? A good, reasonable debate could be had, but people on one side of this argument in particular tend to get very.. let's say snappy, very quickly.

Anyway, I think throwing a blanket term like privilege around is toxic to both sides. People, their environment, and their life experiences are too complex for a label like "white male privilege" to be accurate or fair (not to mention that there are lots of examples as to where white man do not have privilege - custody of children, being drafted, much, much higher mortality rates in the workplace, etc). No, I'm not saying or implying that women have it better than men, I'm just giving examples of where, in my opinion, white male privilege does not seem to exist. Feminism originally was a movement that seemed to aspire to make people equal regardless of gender, but I don't think it stands for that any more. It's a shame a true egalitarian movement has never really taken hold. I could, and do get behind something like "yeah, let's get rid of the wage gap, but let's also make sure mothers and fathers get an equal say in the courts,", but it seems that each side of the debate conveniently ignores the other's legitimate points to push their own agenda.

THEMICRULAH wrote:
In reference to PTSD I don't think the reactions are irrational. You have to understand how PTSD and triggers work. IF you don't treat someone who has PTSD seriously they're just going to go farther into their hole, and things will get worse. You can't just ignore the things they say.


That's just... completely, utterly incorrect, sorry. Treat the person seriously, treat the person well, but understand that irrational reactions or actions are irrational. Having them caused by a mental illness makes them more irrational if anything, not less.

THEMICRULAH wrote:
Schizophrenia is one I especially despise. In my opinion it's a label slapped on those that society deems to be too "out there" or "wacky". Instant "pariah" or "leper" sticker. "Ohh, they have schizophrenia. They might go wacko and kill everybody".

No, it isn't. Schizophrenia is a shitty mental disorder with both genetic and environmental causes. It certainly isn't a label slapped on people that are 'wacky' or 'out there'.

Back to the original topic: Rape is bad, mmmk? But it's pointless to teach people 'not to rape' in the same way it's pointless to teach people not to murder. If someone's going to commit a crime like that no teaching will make a difference. Teaching people of all sorts to protect themselves and to take reasonable safeguards to minimise the likelihood of becoming a victim is surely a better option.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:44 am 
 

Gypaetus wrote:

I can't speak for people in countries outside of Aus, but from my experience as someone that doesn't have this supposed white male privilege, I really can't think of a single example in my life where not having it has been a disadvantage, or made me miss out on any opportunities or get treated badly. Conversely, I've heard more than my fair share of stories of white males going through incredibly tough times, particularly in cases regarding the court system and custody battles. Of course, personal experience doesn't mean that this applies everywhere (or anywhere outside of my own social circle), but I can't think of any clear cut examples in first world Westernized countries where white males are particularly privileged over other demographics. Even in this thread, people have started throwing around the term but no one's given an example of what it is, aside from saying it's 'whiteness' and 'maleness'. Funny, sure, but is the mocking really necessary? A good, reasonable debate could be had, but people on one side of this argument in particular tend to get very.. let's say snappy, very quickly.

Anyway, I think throwing a blanket term like privilege around is toxic to both sides. People, their environment, and their life experiences are too complex for a label like "white male privilege" to be accurate or fair (not to mention that there are lots of examples as to where white man do not have privilege - custody of children, being drafted, much, much higher mortality rates in the workplace, etc). No, I'm not saying or implying that women have it better than men, I'm just giving examples of where, in my opinion, white male privilege does not seem to exist. Feminism originally was a movement that seemed to aspire to make people equal regardless of gender, but I don't think it stands for that any more. It's a shame a true egalitarian movement has never really taken hold. I could, and do get behind something like "yeah, let's get rid of the wage gap, but let's also make sure mothers and fathers get an equal say in the courts,", but it seems that each side of the debate conveniently ignores the other's legitimate points to push their own agenda.



You'd have to be mad to deny the benefits feminism has brought society, and I'd proudly say it is an important part of what makes western countries better places to live in, but the thought-terminating cliche of throwing around phrases like "white male privilege" or whatever, certainly isn't one.

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Riffs
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:45 am 
 

Morrigan wrote:
iamntbatman wrote:
Your fedora is showing.

:lol:


Lots of vacuous babbling but you're not explaining anything. So, how are white men privileged, exactly?
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Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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darkeningday
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:54 am 
 

Let me Google Scholar that for you...

Have fun refuting more than half a million articles! Better start soon...
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Riffs
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:13 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
Let me Google Scholar that for you...

Have fun refuting more than half a million articles! Better start soon...


So you're unable to discuss yourself what is this supposed white men privilege. Understood.

I guess any simpleton can just babble about extraterrestrial encounters and then when asked what they mean, send you to thousands of google links as well?

It's telling that no one here is able to give a shred of an explanation on what they see as this "privilege", instead resorting exclusively to name-calling.
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Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Thashierthanthou
Not Semi-Witty Enough for his Own Title

Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:04 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:45 pm 
 

They don't need to provide examples, the fact that you're daring to question the oppression of womyn in western societies makes you as bad as a rapist!
Typical cis white male behavior...
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inhumanist
Metal freak

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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:59 pm 
 

91% of rape victims are female. One in four female college students are survivors of rape or attempted rape.
35% of black people/33% of hispanics/23% of other ethnicities in the U.S. are below the poverty line, but only 13% of white people.
Nuff said.
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:11 pm 
 

Stop-and-frisk. Employment opportunities and salaries. Housing discrimination. Sexual harassment in the workplace. Sexual harassment at various conventions.
Yeah, no such thing as racial or sexual discrimination anymore, it's all a lie made up by the Communist RadFem Movement! Are you cretins for real? Maybe you'll deny straight folks have more social advantages than the LGBT community too?

The reason people heap scorn and laughter over people denying that white male privilege is a thing is because it's pretty much akin to denying there is such a thing as racism towards minority, or sexism towards women, and that it affects them in their daily lives. So patently absurd that what else can we do but laugh?

Thashierthanthou wrote:
They don't need to provide examples, the fact that you're daring to question the oppression of womyn in western societies makes you as bad as a rapist!
Typical cis white male behavior...

You're an idiot.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:15 pm 
 

Thank you Morrigan!!!! :)
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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:17 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
darkeningday wrote:
Let me Google Scholar that for you...

Have fun refuting more than half a million articles! Better start soon...

So you're unable to discuss yourself what is this supposed white men privilege. Understood.

I guess any simpleton can just babble about extraterrestrial encounters and then when asked what they mean, send you to thousands of google links as well?

It's telling that no one here is able to give a shred of an explanation on what they see as this "privilege", instead resorting exclusively to name-calling.

1. I'm not going to dance for you just because you ask really nicely.
2. Google Scholar is not equal to Google, and "extraterrestrial encounters" on Google Scholar comes up primarily with analyses of mental disorders and how science fiction media plays into these delusions.
3. The reason people aren't giving you a "shred of explanation" is because it's so alarmingly obvious, so meticulously documented, so transparently correct in at least certain scenarios we're assuming you're just trying to stir the pot.

I doubt you'd see the point of going through the rigmarole of trying to convince a Pentecostal the earth isn't 6,000 years old, right? Try to apply that line of thinking here.

EDIT: Morrigan beat me to the punch. I won't delete this post just because I really like the word "rigmarole."
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Morrigan
Crone of War

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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:28 pm 
 

I am reminded of Stephen Colbert's jokes about "I don't see race" and "racism is over, that's why the voting right act was repealed, we don't need it anymore".

Except, y'know, when Colbert does it he's being in-character, ergo, scathingly satirical.
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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Vipunen
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:32 pm
Posts: 155
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:39 pm 
 

Why do people seem to forget that while men are disadvantaged in many ways such as military draft (this is STILL a thing in Finland!), custody of children, deaths in the workplace and homelessness, they don't invalidate the numerous privileges in any way. It's a fair point that those issues shouldn't be ignored, however.

Privilege isn't generally even acknowledged by those who benefit from it, it's always taken for granted.


Last edited by Vipunen on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:41 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Stop-and-frisk. Employment opportunities and salaries. Housing discrimination. Sexual harassment in the workplace. Sexual harassment at various conventions.
Yeah, no such thing as racial or sexual discrimination anymore, it's all a lie made up by the Communist RadFem Movement! Are you cretins for real?


You're an idiot who is confusing discrimination with privileges and taking out your frustrations on a specific segment of the population for reasons you can't even explain.

We both live in a country where such discriminations as you outlined is illegal. We should fight tooth and nail for equality among individuals and to uphold these standards but that's certainly not with white men hate-mongering that you will achieve that.

How about you take these issues one by one and put them into their proper context?

I thought you were better than that.
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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darkeningday
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2004 1:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:53 pm 
 

There are moments I question the necessity of programs like Affirmative Action in 2013; I mean, should my former high school classmate, a first generation African whose parents are both renowned heart surgeons potentially receive preferential treatment (or, more importantly in his case, be potentially accused of receiving preferential treatment) just because of his skin color and last name? I'm pretty sure he could have gone to Harvard on a full scholarship even if he was white (this kid is a fucking genius).

But then I see shit like this and I instantly snap out of my haze. AA, warts and all, is still very much required.
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Last edited by darkeningday on Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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themicrulah
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:55 pm 
 

Quote:
You're an idiot who is confusing discrimination with privileges and taking out your frustrations on a specific segment of the population for reasons you can't even explain.

We both live in a country where such discriminations as you outlined is illegal. We should fight tooth and nail for equality among individuals and to uphold these standards but that's certainly not with white men hate-mongering that you will achieve that.

How about you take these issues one by one and put them into their proper context?

I thought you were better than that.


Because the law has always stopped people from doing things. BRB, gonna smoke a joint and download an MP3.

Also: don't hate on the poor white man!!!!!! He's a sensitive creature. :(
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mindshadow
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:36 am
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:57 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
The reason people heap scorn and laughter over people denying that white male privilege is a thing is because it's pretty much akin to denying there is such a thing as racism towards minority



The minority majority? The world is fast changing, whether or not it was given a "helping hand" (especially here) we'd all better get used to it.
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Last edited by mindshadow on Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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darkeningday
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:58 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
Morrigan wrote:
Stop-and-frisk. Employment opportunities and salaries. Housing discrimination. Sexual harassment in the workplace. Sexual harassment at various conventions.
How about you take these issues one by one and put them into their proper context?

I have a much better idea. How about you do it?
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Riffs
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:59 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
I doubt you'd see the point of going through the rigmarole of trying to convince a Pentecostal the earth isn't 6,000 years old, right? Try to apply that line of thinking here.


"White men privileges" is not a scientifically proven fact. That's the difference.

When people throw inanities like a statistic pertaining to poverty for whites against blacks, they're not demonstrating white men privilege. Because skin color is only but one data. How about the role of parenting, socio-economic class, education?

Any person who isn't stuck in 1960s knows that the single most determining factor related to your socio-economic class is your parents', independent of gender and race. How they raise you, the education and opportunities they will provide you will play a major role in your own socio-economic class. That's why Barack Obama's children are most likely set for life, while some guy raised in a trailer by white alcoholics is probably fucked.

To use a poverty breakdown by ethnicity to prove whites are privilege is about as thorough and lucid as simply pulling out stat crimes and magically declare blacks are more inclined to criminal activities. There are OTHER factors at work to consider in order not to descend into dumbs generalizations.
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Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:01 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
"White men privileges" is not a scientifically proven fact. That's the difference.


It's not a scientifically proven fact, it's a series of social inclinations that can add up to quantifiable advantages, but can be refuted on an ideological basis.

White man's privilege isn't so much a traditional privilege where you pass go and collect $200 as it is a demographic pass on the unjustified mistreatment of others. I can't encompass it, but I can provide a few examples that cover the basics of the concept - judgment calls are heavily biased in favor of white people, and men are given some preferential treatment over women.

"Black drivers (12.3%) were about three times as likely as white drivers (3.9%) and about two times as likely as Hispanic drivers (5.8%) to be searched during a traffic stop in 2008."
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=702

"In 2009, the U.S. Sentencing Commission introduced figures stating that no class of drug is as racially skewed as crack in terms of numbers of offenses. According to the data, 79% of 5,669 sentenced crack offenders were black, while only 10% were white and 10% were Hispanic. The figures for the 6,020 powder cocaine convictions, in contrast, were as follows: 17% of these offenders were white, 28% were black, and 53% were Hispanic. Combined with a 115-month average imprisonment for crack offenses, compared with an average of 87 months for cocaine offenses, the sentencing disparity results in more African-Americans spending more time in the prison system."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Sente ... nd_effects

It is quite easy to find information about a gender-based wage gap, discrimination over career advancement, etc. The best way to explain this is the non-scientific appeal that you have encountered it. Have you ever encountered someone in a position of power - a boss, an institutional head - who generally put more trust in men? Have you ever encountered men who might use their power to advance a woman in the workplace based on attractiveness and personal appeal rather than merit? Even in my progressive, liberal experience, I still encounter a lot of authority figures who tend to inherently favor men over women. I'm sure you have seen the same.

Aside from trying to argue about demographics and justifications, this is what the white man's privilege is. There are times in my life where I was "lucky" where a decision likely would have been different if I were not white - things as simple as a traffic stop. There have been times in professional situations where people have told me they want to deal with me rather than "the black guy" (who was my boss) or a woman - more than a few times some jerk would dismiss someone on being a woman and ask for a man, even though the women were specialized and trained in the task at hand and I knew little. More than a few times, someone has been unnecessarily rude and condescending to a female coworker and treated me much differently. I was treated better by people despite being less capable than women simply because there are a lot of people who are openly and overtly sexist, as well as many subtle degrees of that.

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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:07 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
There are moments I question the necessity of programs like Affirmative Action in 2013; I mean, should my former high school classmate, a first generation African whose parents are both renowned heart surgeons potentially receive preferential treatment (or, more importantly in his case, be potentially accused of receiving preferential treatment) just because of his skin color and last name? I'm pretty sure he could have gone to Harvard on a full scholarship even if he was white (this kid is a fucking genius).

But then I see shit like this and I instantly snap out of my haze. AA, warts and all, is still very much required.


Unproductive. You fight discrimination by taking measures against it. Not by establishing another form of discrimination that leads to nonsensical results such as the example you gave yourself.

People should rally to this girl and make sure this shit isn't tolerated.
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Riffs
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:09 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Riffs wrote:
"White men privileges" is not a scientifically proven fact. That's the difference.


It's not a scientifically proven fact, it's a series of social inclinations that can add up to quantifiable advantages, but can be refuted on an ideological basis.


Thanks for arguing this in a reasonable manner, Zod.

The quantifiable advantages can be interpreted in numerous ways, though. Sometimes, ideologically too. You have to be careful when you find correlation. Otherwise, you can end up with dangerous statements. "Blacks are dumber", "women are incompetent" and all sorts of equally horrid statements have all been implied by people interpreting stats too. I'd prefer all parties refrain from conclusions based on ideologies.

Zodijackyl wrote:

White man's privilege isn't so much a traditional privilege where you pass go and collect $200 as it is a demographic pass on the unjustified mistreatment of others. I can't encompass it, but I can provide a few examples that cover the basics of the concept - judgment calls are heavily biased in favor of white people, and men are given some preferential treatment over women.

"Black drivers (12.3%) were about three times as likely as white drivers (3.9%) and about two times as likely as Hispanic drivers (5.8%) to be searched during a traffic stop in 2008."
http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=702


Interestingly, it also states: In 2008 about 5% of traffic stops led to a search of the driver, the vehicle, or both. Police were more likely to search male drivers (7.4%) than female drivers (1.6%).

Discrimination against men? Or did they have reason to believe a search was warranted?

How do we interpret such data without ideology or bias, without knowing more?

Zodijackyl wrote:
"In 2009, the U.S. Sentencing Commission introduced figures stating that no class of drug is as racially skewed as crack in terms of numbers of offenses. According to the data, 79% of 5,669 sentenced crack offenders were black, while only 10% were white and 10% were Hispanic. The figures for the 6,020 powder cocaine convictions, in contrast, were as follows: 17% of these offenders were white, 28% were black, and 53% were Hispanic. Combined with a 115-month average imprisonment for crack offenses, compared with an average of 87 months for cocaine offenses, the sentencing disparity results in more African-Americans spending more time in the prison system."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Sente ... nd_effects


Meh. One of my good friends has struggled in his past with crack cocaine and it is nasty, nasty shit. The addictive nature of crack VS cocaine is being debated but it's a given that crack became a rapid epidemic. I'm not convinced higher sentences were the best way to go about it but I understand they felt the need to do something. That being said, your race doesn't determine whether you smoke that shit. It's a choice. I don't think we should examine ethnicity stats of offenders to decide whether or not an offence is more acceptable for society or less. In that case, if there was a class targeted, it was the poor (and the youth), as nobody with once of sense and a reasonable income would inhale that shit.

Yes, I know there is an income discrepancy between (not necessarily because of) races. But that's a fight we're winning in more and more societies.

Zodijackyl wrote:

It is quite easy to find information about a gender-based wage gap, discrimination over career advancement, etc. The best way to explain this is the non-scientific appeal that you have encountered it. Have you ever encountered someone in a position of power - a boss, an institutional head - who generally put more trust in men? Have you ever encountered men who might use their power to advance a woman in the workplace based on attractiveness and personal appeal rather than merit? Even in my progressive, liberal experience, I still encounter a lot of authority figures who tend to inherently favor men over women. I'm sure you have seen the same.


I've seen all kinds of discrimination and heard about more. Sometimes it seemed a legitimate concern, other times, not so much. A lot of men also perceive discrimination against them, again the legitimacy of those concerns vary. Personally, I feel pretty good about things where I live. I gravitate in an environment that is about 65% female and have seen no disparity of any kind. I get the same opportunities as my female colleagues and am held to same rules and regulations.
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Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:31 pm 
 

darkeningday wrote:
I have a much better idea. How about you do it?


I'm not the one arguing a class is magically favoured, here.

If people declare that white men are privileged, I consider the burden is on them to demonstrate that. That being said, I'm open to debate. I just don't like divisive terms thrown in blanket statements.

I hate how Morrigan is going about this, throwing demeaning terms in general and then trying to ridicule people who call her out to justify her position. I think it's the height of hypocrisy that she would call me a cretin when a few months ago, she was thanking me by PM for debating against a misogynist here, praising my "insight".

The difference between Morrigan and I is, my "insight" also tells me that creating new lines of divides never fixed anything. That includes mumbling about some white-penis hating agenda.
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:33 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Specifically, what privilege does that afford me here in Ireland? Give me some examples of how I've benefited by being male in my life. I'd definitely concede that being black would be pretty shit, but then a lot of the blacks here are Nigerian and bring some immensely shitty culture with them


Ohhhhhhh.

See, before, I thought maybe it was just that you were ignorant, but it turns out that you're just a total asshole. Now I get it.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:05 pm 
 

Really, the term "white privilege" is kind of misleading. I (and a lot of other people) don't like it for that reason. It leads to responses like Riffs's here. The phenomenon described by white privilege is very much real, but it's not really a privilege, but rather a set of unfair disadvantages that everyone else has to face. Ideally, "white privilege" is something everyone could expect to have.

Things like:

Seeing people such as yourself be well-represented in media, positions of power, etc. White men are highly overrepresented in those areas as compared to population percentages.

Being fairly treated by police and law enforcement - Zod linked where black men are much more likely to be searched when stopped, but there's also plenty of evidence that, after conviction, black men receive much harsher sentences than white men for the same crime, despite equal criminal backgrounds.

Not having to deal with minor incidents of racism or sexism on a daily basis - these are often called "microaggressions" by some, incidents that are quite minor in isolation (say, someone expressing surprise after a black man mentions having gone to college, or a woman being whistled or cat-called at on the street) but in aggregate add up to a serious drain on a person's emotional health.

There's plenty of other shit like that. It adds up.
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antonthereaper wrote:
Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

http://extrememetalencyclopedia.webs.com/

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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:13 pm 
 

Yeah, it's quite amazing how someone can see and easily refute the blatant sexism against women who are questioned for their metal cred, something a man would never have to receive on the basis of his gender, and then turn around and blithely claim that there's no such thing as male privilege. I mean you got a textbook example right there (sure, a minor one and not as harmful as housing discrimination, but an example nonetheless), but, I guess that doesn't count because reasons?

[Edit: also, it's not hypocritical to praise someone for doing something good, and then call him on the bullshit he ends up spewing later. Just FYI. It's actually very consistent.]

But nevermind that, as I'm clearly a penis hater with an agenda. :lol: brb gotta burn mah bra
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Markeri, in 2013 wrote:
you can debate the actual date that metal began, but a fairly agreed upon date is 1969. Metal is almost 25 years old
Extreme_violence wrote:
Why Iron maiden is there? It's very far to be metal than a lot of some metal band.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:20 pm 
 

It's like these people think white male privilege and is supposed to involve a sack of money and a dozen slaves. "I didn't get my sack OR my slaves! White male privilege is a myth!!!!!!"
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antonthereaper wrote:
Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

http://extrememetalencyclopedia.webs.com/

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:42 pm 
 

Morrigan wrote:
Yeah, it's quite amazing how someone can see and easily refute the blatant sexism against women who are questioned for their metal cred, something a man would never have to receive on the basis of his gender, and then turn around and blithely claim that there's no such thing as male privilege. I mean you got a textbook example right there (sure, a minor one and not as harmful as housing discrimination, but an example nonetheless), but, I guess that doesn't count because reasons?


So, we can pull a single incident and declare white men are privileged?

Hey, how about I use those stats Zod linked to and declare women are privileged because their vehicles are searched only 20% as often as men?

Morrigan wrote:
[Edit: also, it's not hypocritical to praise someone for doing something good, and then call him on the bullshit he ends up spewing later. Just FYI. It's actually very consistent.]

But nevermind that, as I'm clearly a penis hater with an agenda. :lol: brb gotta burn mah bra


Which is why I'm gonna call you on your bullshit to try and paint a whole group of people with your nasty brush instead of addressing problems on an individual basis. The proper response to discrimination is to address it like we did back in that thread. Not to create further divide and made-up categories of so-called "privileged" individuals.

Inform yourself on socio-economic issues, which are the root of the problem of most issues you raised earlier (jobs, employment, crime, etc...) and encompass many things that go way beyond race and gender when you delve deeper.

I think it's cool you have strong opinions about certain issues. I just hate to see you so profoundly dishonest as to think your position is a simple, obvious truth when in fact you are talking about complex issues. You're blending all of this together and throwing a "white man privilege" blanket statement, like it explains everything. And then you're just content to name call people who ask you questions about this. It's a shitty, dishonest and stupid attitude.
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mjollnir wrote:
Noble Beast's debut album is way beyond MOST of what Priest did in the 80s.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:49 pm 
 

Dude, it doesn't explain EVERYTHING. No one ever claimed as much. But it's very real and it does have its hands in nearly everything.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:01 pm 
 

Especially since the lack of white privilege often reinforces the socio-economic statuses of minorities, and vice versa.
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antonthereaper wrote:
Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

http://extrememetalencyclopedia.webs.com/

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themicrulah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:00 am
Posts: 1167
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:17 pm 
 

For some reason this thread is now making me think of the film "This is England" :/
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