^Interesting point; and yeah, there really wasn't that much continuity between this movie and "The Last Jedi." It really was like two people having competing ideas of where the story was heading, and this one was trying somehow to tie these competing themes/plot lines and story arcs together. Sometimes successfully, sometimes things just got dropped- and that wasnt always a bad thing.

The Last Jedi is a much better movie than the other two and Rian Johnson is a thousand times the filmmaker that this talentless hack JJ ever will be.

I have spoken.

That lack of an overarching storyline was probably the biggest fault of the "sequel" trilogy. It's one of the few things the prequels did well (the original trilogy made it, and despite Lucas' assertion, I think we know some of the big plot points - like Luke and Leia being siblings - was a bit on the fly, but it was all gravy in the end). Someone really needed to be the keeper of the flame, but they just didn't seem to have anyone like that, or at the very least maybe not give too much control to single people (mainly the respective directors).

J. J. Abrams thinks a good film is when you Xerox a successful movie and dress it up with bleeding edge special effects to distract you from the fact you're watching a soulless replica.

Rian Johnson thinks a good film is when you do exactly the opposite of what everyone expects.

Taken individually you have 3 serviceable if unremarkable
sci-fi romps. Put them together and you have one of the most confused trilogies in a long time.

This is exactly it. These three films are anything but a "trilogy". They're basically individual romps with no real coherent connection to each other. That's the strength of the original and prequel, they at least told a coherent story over three chapters. This sequel trilogy is just a mess.

What they SHOULD have done, is have JJ Abrams do EP 7 and 8 back to back, and had Rian come in for EP 9 and throw the monkey wrenches into THAT film, not in the middle of the trilogy, so it ruined that one and EP 9.

I think if Rian had just solely took what JJ did with EP 7 and 8, and surprised us with what was left after those two episodes, we could have had a much better trilogy in the end.

Yeah, that's my point. I think this trilogy was supposed to be like that. I think all the main characters would have been developed a whole lot better if Rian Johnson had not tried to hijack the whole thing and turn it into his version of the story. It was literally a case of "You had ONE job dude", and that was to make the middle movie of a trilogy. Not try to start the whole thing over.

Poe's arc should have been: Talented, if cocky, pilot - seasoned leader with more of a military mindset - leader of the Resistance.
Rey's arc should have been: Extremely strong in the Force but confused by it - conflicted over light/dark and potentially dangerous - redemption upon choosing the path of the Jedi.
Finn's arc should have been: Former stormtrooper looking for a way out - finding his place among people where his knowledge and skills could be used for good - military ground commander and mature leader.

Instead you'll notice that the middle part is missing completely from TLJ, as Johnson tried to change everyone. So in TROS Abrams tried to cram parts 2 & 3 of everyone's character development all into one movie. I think he did a good job of repairing everyone's arc.

^ That would have been more logical but also pretty boring. TFA was fun because of the strength of the actors and how they sold the characters. TLJ was better because it was actually something new for a Star Wars film. It was just not perfect because Johnson had to be tied to the constraints of the trilogy. If he was making it all by himself I have no doubt it would've been way better. But continuing TFA's narrative for three films would've just been lifeless after the novelty wore off.

Rian Johnson couldn't write his way out of a paper bag if the bag was doused in gasoline and his pen was an acetylene torch. I detest JJ Abrams but at least his goal is to entertain, whereas Rian just wants to wave his Johnson around. What's sad is he's actually a pretty capable director with some cleverly choreographed scenes even on a wax-paper thin budget, but he always insists on writing his own shit and a capable writer he is not.

With all that said I think TLJ was easily his least bad project to date and didn't actually make me want to roll my eyes so far back they become permanent fixtures protruding from my occipital lobe. So maybe there's hope (but probably not).

I've really enjoyed everything I've seen from him, so I disagree with that. I think he's fun and different.

please explain how you enjoyed The Brothers Bloom

He directed both the worst and (arguably) the best Breaking Bad episodes. "Ozymadias" and "The Fly". So he's hit and miss
About TLJ, as I said above, I don't really like the choices made, especially with Luke Skywalker, but I respect the attempt of doing something new. The best idea in my opinion is the Force power that allows Rey and Kylo to connect and even interact physically through it. Force ghosts using powers... not so good. If he had directed all 3, then it would probably be more coherent, and he wouldn't have to spend time undoing the setups from JJ. A lot of people gave Rian shit for being subversive with our expectations, but he sort of had to if he was going to make the movie he wanted.

The only good idea in TLJ was to stop treating midichlorians like an STD, but of course JJ retconned that one good idea. "Yeah I'm force positive, my dad had the force and didn't use a condom, I got the force during pregnancy but I'm doing okay, the Jedi help me with the symptoms." And not giving Rian too much credit, it was only an idea, like everything else in the movie he forgot to flesh it out and seems to have used his initial idea brainstorming notes as the script. Same with Luke throwing his lightsaber away (scene taken from that dodgy Karate Kid knock-off American Shaolin if I recall correctly) or Yoda burning down the "temple" with the sacred texts to make the Jedi religion based on Zen Buddhism on the big screen like it is for many bits in Clone Wars, cool to have it on the big screen but they were just throwaway scenes, nothing fleshed out. A lot of scenes in the movie people complain about even, some are simply not explained at all (like Holdo's attitude towards Poe, could have given it half a sentence more of backstory as to how she "knows hotshots like him", say a word or two about having her squad wiped out by a guy like that early in the First Order campaign, whatever), or they are poorly connected (like Rose saving Finn, allowing the First Order to trash the base gate - it actually makes perfect sense because the movie starts off with her sister sacrificing herself and it gained the resistance exactly nothing, so she doesn't believe in that kind of sacrifice, but why couldn't she just have mentioned it, make the connection for the viewer? Add "my sister sacrificed herself and it gained us nothing", then follow it up with her line "we win not by killing who we hate but by saving who we love"), but yeah, the entire movie is just full of half-baked half ideas that I guess Rian didn't have the time or motivation to flesh out and just threw out there for everyone to make their own headcanon to connect it, easier than writing the full story himself, he already got paid anyway so why the extra effort.

To me, it was never the fact that he took risks to subvert our expectations, its the fact that he completely disregarded the questions and mysteries of the previous film. "The Force Awakens" established at least three distinct questions that we expected to be answered and explored in the next 2 movies:
1) Who's Rey's parents?
2) Who's Snoke?
3) Who are the Knights of Ren?

And then after waiting and speculating for 2 fucking years, we're told by Rian Johnson that none of those things mattered.
1) Who's Rey's Parents? They're nobody, moving on (I actually liked this one. It answered the question in an unexpected way, and it emphasized that anyone can be a Force-wielding hero (which apparently was reversed in the next film)).

2) Who's Snoke? He's no one, just a guy that needed to die, moving on.

3) Who are the Knights of Ren? Not important, in fact, we're not even going to mention them in the film.

That is what bothered me. These questions and mysteries were supposed to establish the foundations in which the Trilogy was going to build off of. Instead, Rian, in his infinite wisdom, chose to disregard all of it to establish his own foundations in the second film of a trilogy, which is fucking stupid.

I refuse to see this new one. Especially since it sounds like we're told that those three questions were important, and JJ throws out Rian's ideas and provided an answers to those questions (while also adding new problems and questions, and then subsequently answering those new problems and questions), all within a single film, mind you. Yea, okay, no thanks.

Also:

This.

I always wondered what Snoke's original arc was going to be. He looks like he has some notable scarring on his face (and like actual scars, not the deformities that sith masters end up with) and in a pre-TSA interview Andy Serkis said "Obviously he has a huge agenda. He has suffered a lot of damage. As I said, there is a strange vulnerability to him, which belies his true agenda, I suppose."

I dunno but JJ Abrams created him so probably something with Benedict Cumberbatch playing an Indian guy and Spock screaming in rage.

I just got back from seeing this, and it was aggressively okay. I was surprised at how good The Last Jedi was, and I was excited to see how they'd follow it up, but it gets bumped down to the 6/10 level that The Force Awakens was running on. The Rise of Skywalker weirdly felt rushed, like it really was comprised of two separate movies that were squeezed together brute-force by a fan on YouTube in an afternoon. It definitely had some great moments (introducing more former Stormtroopers, the reveal of the spy and his motivation, Chewie's lament, among a few others), but I couldn't help feeling like the creative spark was gone. The Last Jedi gave us artistry and cinema and actual goddamned themes, but then it was all taken away and replaced by a serviceable action movie that will fade with time. Ah, well.

Yeah, I agree with that. My better half vehemently dislikes The Last Jedi, and she is pretty adamant that if she were to rewatch the series she would just skip it, and to be honest, you’re probably not going to miss much except the plot point of Luke crossing over to Force ghost.

The Last Jedi is intrigues me though, even though I don’t think it was a particularly good film or storyline. I didn’t have a problem with most of the decisions or the themes, just that the execution was McClunky for my taste.

Why not just tell Poe your plan? They set up this really interesting premise of being stuck on the ship with time ultimately against them, but we can’t have them all stuck on the ship, so sidequest where it is easy to get off/on, and get away/back. And Rose and Finn having time to have a heart-to-heart on the frontline of a battlefield (though I agree with droneriot about the theme of pointless sacrifice, I just don’t like the way they portrayed it).

I feel like there is a good film in there somewhere. Plus I will always approve of having Benecio del Toro

Man, I was excited when I first heard the news that he was cast for a role...only to then see him play a stuttering cartoony buffoon that hardly did anything for the story line. Bah, what a waste!

To me at least.

My favorite things about this were things that tied into stuff that I read in some of the books (whether it was intended or not). The Emperor is my favorite character of all time, so of course there's gonna be some bias, but the way it showed him creating life and cheating death reflected a lot of what I read in Darth Plagueis. The lightning-storm planet also drew a lot from the Revan book, which was cool. And of course the whole idea of Ray being a Palpatine was sorta cool to me. From a storytelling perspective I guess it wasn't that great, but overall it was a neat way to close things off. Were there some dumb things? Of course. But it was my favorite of the Disney Trilogy, which continues my pattern of the third in each trilogy being my favorite (Revenge Of The Sith, Return Of The Jedi, The Rise Of Skywalker).

The Fly was good too. I never got the issue with that episode.

And yeah I mean that's what I was saying. Even if you disliked his ideas for TLJ (I didn't), he at least wanted to make a new kind of Star Wars flick. As this newest one makes clear, Abrams wanted to make fanservice garbage that added nothing new at all.



Didn't see that. Brick, the Breaking Bad episodes, TLJ and Knives Out were all great though. Looper was OK.

The Fly was awesome, one of my favorite episodes actually. I've re-watched Breaking Bad twice this year and that episode was hilarious in its zoomed in focus of the eccentricities of the two main characters.

See that's why TLJ was so atrocious, as Superveji4 pointed out. Three main questions arose from 7:

1) Who's Rey's parents?
2) Who's Snoke?
3) Who are the Knights of Ren?

And Rian basically said fuck those questions, I want to create my own. Well, okay, but you weren't really hired to do that (from a fan perspective), you were hired to continue the story arc that's already 33% finished. Instead he reset it back to 25% or something. So we ended up half way to where we should have been after ep 8.

That's why I think Rian would have been perfect for either EP 7 OR EP 9, but not the fucking middle...why the middle?

Yeah I don't get the "you just don't like TLJ because it's different!!!" argument. Hell, I was looking forward to it being different (it was all over its marketing campaign), I did think TFA played it too safe, I was excited about seeing a new kind of Star Wars movie. What I ended up hating about it was just the fact it was brainless. You've got completely pointless, throwaway new characters like Rose, whoever Laura Dern was supposed to be, Benecio Del Toro playing some comic relief cowboy. You've got Finn's whole storyline coming across as some bizarre homage to the worst parts of the prequel trilogy. You've got Leia flying through space like Mary Poppins. You've got every line of dialogue riddled with "humor" from the worst kind of Marvel movie.

If you insist on being new and different and subversive, then you need to offer a coherent alternative. But then yeah JJ came back swinging with a movie that's just as bad or even shittier exactly because he tried to give all TLJ haters exactly what they wanted. What a complete trainwreck.

Personally I don't think I would have cared that much about continuing the story of TFA unless somebody had a truly groundbreaking idea. It was fun as an upbeat popcorn action movie but I wouldn't have really given a shit about finding out Rey's parents were anybody important or about some made up order of knights in subsequent films. I'm not big on fantasy worldbuilding shit though. I like seeing real parallels or some kind of meaning to the story. The Palpatine thing in TRoS is basically everything I hate about these sorts of stories.

I remember going into TLJ, my thinking was 'oh, well, they'll probably try to do something to differentiate this from the arc of the original trilogy.' I would've been disappointed if they'd done a usual type of fantasy storyline with nothing else to it. But eh it wasn't for everybody. People got a point when they say the way this trilogy was handled was a big mess. No cohesion.

Yeah. To give Johnson some credit, deciding Rey's parents were nobody important makes a thousand times more sense than her somehow being a Palpatine. Fuck that shit. It's like the dumbest kind of fan fiction imaginable.

Before the movie came out there was a theory that Palpatine created Rey in a lab, and that evil Rey was one of those creations as well. I honestly would have preferred that. It would have fitted with Rey's parents not showing up in the big creepy mirror because they never existed in the first place and it would explain her force powers. When they revealed Snoke to be a creation of Palpatine I almost believed it for a second.

And there is some precedent for stuff like this in the Star Wars universe. There is a whole legends storyline about Palpatine returning after Endor and staying alive by transferring himself into vat-grown clones of himself.

But isn't that the whole point of a planned trilogy? To tell a complete and cohesive storyline that's spread out throughout three films? The only reason I can think of someone watching the second film of a planned trilogy is to see the continuation of the storyline established in the first film. If you weren't interested in the story of the first film however, then naturally you would not be interested in seeing the second film. Since that's the case, why would you even bother in seeing TLJ in the first place if you didn't care for the storyline in TFA?


That's really strange to me. Isn't world-building at least half of the reason why you would check out a sci-fi/fantasy/adventure story? I would think that you would want to be immersed in the fantasy world in which the story is based on, and one of the more obvious ways to do this is to explore this foreign fantasy world and "discover" the lore that's behind the world, and thus defining and shaping the said fantasy world. If you're not interested in that though, then, again, why would you even bother?

And you mean to tell me that in TFA, after hearing of the "Knights of Ren", Kylo being the "Master of the Knights of Ren", and "Ren" being in the name Kylo Ren, that there wasn't, at least, a small part of you that was wondering, "huh, what's with all this 'Ren' shit?" (Which I've heard is never really explained in TRoS. Yippee.)


What do you mean by "parallels"? You mean like social/political commentary that reflects the real world?

One thing I've noticed (and I find quite frustrating) is how the select few people (both in my personal life and on the internet) who actually liked this film aren't really arguing against the criticisms that's being thrown towards the film; in fact, I've found many of them actually agree with the criticisms. "Yes, the film's a mess. Yes, the film is filled with bullshit Macguffins. Yes, certain things did not make any sense. Yes, the trilogy has become incoherent and inconsistent....but I still liked it." I found this to be quite different from previous films (like TLJ), in the sense that the ones who liked it insisted that the film was good but just "misunderstood." I just didn't understand what the fuck was going on.....until I saw Kevin Smith's take on TRoS. He liked the film, first and foremost, but as he was explaining and reviewing the film you see him trying to clumsily explain certain plot points that clearly didn't make any sense. After about the fourth time he's doing these nonsensical explanations, he stops and he says something along lines of, "look, when I go see a Star Wars film, all I ask for are 'moments.' Moments that remind me of the Original Trilogy, moments that make me feel like that kid who was watching those films for the first time. I don't really care if it makes any sense, and I don't care if the sequences that preceded these 'moments' are coherent, I just want these 'moments.'" And he doubled down on this on a later podcast episode by saying something like, "they could've done everything wrong in the film, but if they, at least, had the moment in which Chewy got his medal, I would've said the film was fine simply because of that." I mean, holy shit, by that standard there is no such thing as a bad Star Wars film then.

I know I'm probably pointing out an obvious symptom of fanboyism, but I just simply didn't realize how deep it went, and I didn't realize the sheer level of immunity that the Star Wars franchise seems to have against piss-poor writing.

Star Wars fanboyism like that runs decades deep. People live and die by these childhood memories. See any one of those Star Wars / Disney conventions and it's cult-like how devoted they are no matter what. If it has lightsabers, references to Vader, the Force, etc. then there's a hardcore fanbase that'll love it regardless of the quality of the film. Reading that stuff in your post about wanting "moments" was borderline infuriating.

I can't imagine anyone giving any serious fucks about the Knights of Ren. Clearly, JJ didn't care either, because they were... fucking nothing at all. Blaming Rian Johnson for not developing the Knights of Ren is asinine.

As for Rey's parentage, Rian Johnson answered that perfectly. The entire point of having a heroine who came from nothing, who had no special bloodline or anything like it, but who could still be a hero who could make a difference, makes for a far better story than the "magical bloodline" nonsense we've had over and over and over... IN STAR WARS ALONE, too. And not only did she have magical blood, but he also re-used the "haha actually it's the villain's blood GASPS PLOT TWIST" too, except unlike Vader/Luke, he didn't even manage to make it make sense, or fit any kind of meaningful story arc.


I mean I'm all for "cool moments" too but unless they are meant to be comedic, they only work if they a) make some kind of narrative sense b) are an earned payoff to previous build-up. RoS not only fails spectacularly at all of that, it was also full of plot holes and random nonsense over and over.

It has no original idea whatsoever, and doesn't even use its pathetic nostalgia pandering correctly. Vader fucking everyone's shit up in Rogue One? That was an awesome "moment", and yes it was fan service, but the scene made sense and was oozing with atmosphere.

The one big thing that Abrams couldn’t fix was Snoke. Johnson fucking killed him, removing him from the story so aggressively that it couldn’t be retconned. That was possibly Johnson’s biggest fuckup, in a long list of fuckups. Just about everything having to do with the Knights of Ren, Kylo, how the First Order arose and built all that shit, it all hinged on Snoke indulging in some Bond villain exposition.

Snoke’s arc would have connected a few dots there, but Johnson made that particular arc unfixable.

The only reason Snoke's arc got fucked up is because they brought back Palpatine as the big bad behind it all in TROS, so they had to explain Snoke away in a 20 second scene. Snoke as a character worked fine in TLJ.

The Knights of Ren were literally Organization XIII. Except not really, because even Organization XIII had individual personalities and most of them got redemption arcs and backstories. So, in fact, the Knights of Ren are actually worse than Organization XIII.

Well, I mean that if they had done the normal, conventional things everyone seems to want, it would've been dull to me unless there was something unexpectedly exceptional to it. Like I said, I saw TLJ because I liked the first one enough to be like "OK, well, what are they gonna do next to differentiate this from the old films after setting up this new story?" Plus Johnson was a draw - I always like him.



I pretty much read or watch anything for characters and the human connection. If they can build a cool setting or put in some great visuals, that's awesome too, but in Star Wars' case it was all kinda familiar.



No, not even a little bit. I honestly barely registered it really... I liked the movies for the acting and the quick, exciting pace. It's an action story to me.



Pretty much. It's not mandatory for a story to be good, but for my taste it helps to see that there was some thought put into why the story is being told. TLJ was interesting to me because it was about the destruction of the order of things and about doing away with what these young kids' parents and ancestors were all about. That was a good hook for me.

Regarding Snoke - I really doubt the backstory for him would have been interesting. Killing him off unceremoniously was a lot better to me than "oh look another cloaked dude who is evil" or whatever else.

I don't understand. How did the Emperor showing up retroactively fuck up an arc that had already been thoroughly fucked for 2 years? I'd be willing to put down money that Palpatine only showed up in TROS because Snoke couldn't be the main baddie anymore. Seriously. Just mentally replace Palp with Snoke in every scene. Add some dialogue about how Snoke found some of Palp's old Sith shit lying around and that's how the First Order rose, and bam. Arc solved. Practically writes itself.

That would have been just as boring as what we got. Snoke's role in TLJ was to get murdered by Kylo so Kylo could become the big bad in the final movie. That should have been the focus of TROS. But instead they brought back Palpatine because nostalgia is more important and fucked up what could have been a perfectly fine ending to the trilogy focusing on Rey vs Kylo. Snoke was a bargain bin villain, and I'm glad Rian Johnson killed him off in favor of Kylo.

It's a shame, Johnson should have gotten the whole trilogy. Could have been good.

It's pretty clear that there are two camps here. Whether or not a person thought TROS was any good seems to depend entirely on their opinion of TLJ. To me, this goes in the same direction as The Matrix trilogy. One sets things up, Two does some weird shit a segment of fans find redeemable somehow, Three does its best to ignore Two and just finish things based on One.

The reason why people cared about the Knights of Ren was simply because of the constant mention of them in TFA, and also seeing them be behind the destruction of Luke's Jedi Order. It's quite obvious to me that they were supposed to be something important. I'm not saying that they had to have a detailed background for each and every member, but a simple explanation of who/what they are and where they came from would've sufficed. Rian could've explored this and maintained their presence in TLJ, but again he chose to ignore them outright and simply do his own thing, which contributed to the feeling of incoherence and inconsistency within the Sequel Trilogy. So yes, I will blame him for that.


That's exactly what I was getting at. Having "moments" is fine, but please make sure it makes sense. If it doesn't make sense then just chuck the "moment," I don't want it; but as I mentioned in my post, people like Kevin Smith are not like that. It seems they want the "moments" at all cost, even if it doesn't make any sense, and that is what OzzuApu and I find infuriating.


Even though I was turned off by the sudden killing of Snoke, I would agree that the correct way to move on from that was to simply have Kylo Ren become the final main villain of the Sequel Trilogy (especially in light of the ridiculous idea of bringing back Palpatine). There's 2 possible reasons I can think up of why JJ didn't do this:
1) The desperate need to win back the "old fans" who hated TLJ, and thus bringing back Palapatine may have felt "necessary"
2) The lack of faith in Kylo Ren being an interesting and threatening final boss (I find this possibility to be especially hilarious given the fact that it was JJ who created the character of Kylo Ren in the first place)

Having Kylo Ren become the final villain could've been interesting though. The relationship between Kylo and Rey could've been more focused, and they could've shown Kylo falling deeper into madness, thus showing him become (more fully) a Force-using psychopathic maniac (with no redemption arc!). Could've been an interesting, dark final entry...


I honestly did not feel like the 3rd entry of the Matrix Trilogy was trying to "undo" the second film. In fact, I see the 3rd entry as the "TLJ" of the Trilogy, in the sense that it felt radically different mostly because the majority of the film took place outside of the Matrix itself.

Oh man that could have been so good. There were these moments in TLJ and TROS in which Kylo actually becomes an intimidating presence like a well-acted version of episode III Anakin, and they could have done so much more with that.

C’mon guys, what was JJ supposed to do?

This is a Star Wars film right. You know, space opera for kids.

Ep7 gave us a new heroine with an undisclosed backstory, a new bad guy and an androgynous whiney bad guy. Yeah it was a sea boot but it was great watching.

Half way through The Last Jedi Rian Johnson had killed the bad guy, made the new heroine nothing and turned Kylo into a doodle. The movie ended with everyone dead and no hope - it could very well have been the finale.

The fuck was JJ supposed to do? Last film in a trilogy and no bad guy, no hero, no story and no overarching plot.

Where could he go with it? How to finish it? Who is the bad guy who is the hero? What is the force? Who are the Jedi?

Rian Johnson left him a lot to unfuck. I think he did as well as could be expected. Uncle Palpy was the last option and he fucking rocked it.

This is what happens when you don’t plan out a trilogy before you start.

Yes a lot of stupid fetch quests and unneeded bullshit but it still gets 8/10 for me for unfucking Ep 8.

I was pretty okay with Snoke getting killed off and I'm even okay with him being a clone since his role as plot device was pretty clear from the get go. Kylo Ren as Supreme Leader would've been the best antagonizing role in TROS, but I think Palpatine's return could've been easier to swallow if he was presented as some sort of dark side hive mind that has all the memories and consciousness of all previous Sith lords but presents itself with his personality and mannerisms. It seemed like there were hints of being the case and the Jedi speaking to Rey could've been an interesting counter, but then they toss it aside with the "one true Emperor" line.

But in terms of why I still like the sequel trilogy despite its flaws, it's because I got invested in the characters and enjoyed the dynamics they had with one another. The prequels had fantastic world building with crappy characterization while the sequels had fantastic characterization with crappy world building. Both trilogies' flaws can make it hard to enjoy their strengths, but I have an easier time with the latter even though the former came out when I was a kid.

You heard it here first, folks: Not having superior genes means you can't possibly be a hero!

And, what, you think Kylo Ren was gonna play checkers all day after killing Snoke? Hint: Snoke was a decoy; Kylo Ren's the real bad guy.