I promise I won't derail the thread; I really have no compulsion to discuss this issue, but I'm just curious - are a bunch of you denying the existence of a soul? It seems that's what I'm reading. I've met lots of people who don't believe in God, a god, gods, etc., but I've never met anyone who doesn't believe that he/she has a soul (or, if I have, the topic never came up). I'm just trying to clarify if I'm reading right. Again, I'm not trying to derail this topic and will not argue one way or the other; I'm just curious.

No. Expedience randomly brought up, "the soul," at some point, and I never mentioned it because I have no idea what the fuck he's on about.

soul is a metaphor for a person's essence or being or or consciousness or whatever.

whatever. It's a word. I believe I'm a self. Maybe that means I have a soul according to some people, but I don't believe in any sort of supernatural essence that's housed in our body or whatever.

Meditation is about dealing with here and now, it helps people in their daily life to remain calm and be better disposed to help others (most of us) who are suffering and caught up in the uncertainty and true nature of life (impermanence).

Meditation adepts, especially those living long ago, refused to be drawn in on questions of metaphysics and whether we have an everlasting soul, as it's simply futile and any talk of such nature leads to more confusion and complicates the practice which purely seeks to help us in the world we do know by our cognitive rational.

There's nothing wrong with talking about these matters but don't try and seek answers from people who use meditation technique (primarily used for quietening an un trained minds chaotic thoughts) who know no more than anyone else on other worldly matters. This is what I've concluded reading about the subject.

Naturally, the soul goes hand in hand with religion and gods and the afterlife. The soul, the self, it's all linked to meditation. I don't believe in either so meditation is problematic for me.

I meditate and do yoga regularly - and blog about it (the blog is in my profile). Teach both, too. Though meditation significantly less regularly.

If anything else, its a great way to "disconnect" for how ever long you're able to. 10 minutes. Whatever. The length of time isn't important, its just that you do it (regularly, preferably).

Have had plenty of "experiences" - from just clarity to other things that I won't get into. If anything its quite liberating, and as much as I've read about monks, ascetics, etc., getting bursts of creativity through it, in my experience, its true. Of course, different people get different things out of it.

Yeah, I'm not talking about a "divine soul" or an "eternal soul" or anything like that. Just an essence of the self that is (as-yet) undetectable by science. Anyway, cool.

On topic, I remember now why I stopped sitting daily. It was a chronic sinus inflammation that I still have to some degree. It's really hard to meditate when you can't breathe much air through your nose. I guess I could just not focus on the fact that my breathing is messed up, but I decided to deal with the sinuses and then return to sitting.

Hear you. I have problems with my sinuses, too. Even though its not "ideal", I just breath through my mouth on "bad days". Nothing I can really do about it otherwise short of surgery, and its not worth it, really.

Sounds like you're overcomplicating it for no reason. And no, meditation is not intrinsically linked to those things.

Meditation is a technology, not anything else. It calms the body, inducing alpha wave states, properly oxygenates the full apparatus, and (either intentionally or not) gives the floor to the parasympathetic nervous system. Its effects have nothing to do with spirit or soul or even awakening. That's all cloying projection. It's the same with yoga .. practical disciplines for valuable biological maintenance. Spirituality is a delusion of grandeur and, in the end, detracts from the experience.

Like I said, meditation is a cognitive thing. It's not inevitably linked to the supernatural. I believe that everything that happens to people who meditate and experience cool things is natural phenomena that we either understand or don't, but either way, natural, not supernatural, not religious.

But at the same time, it's done for self-improvement so there has to be something to improve. That's not a tenet everyone agrees on.

What? Are you saying "self-improvement" has an intrinsic spiritual connection now, too, or have I completely misunderstood you? Because if you are... I'm not even sure how to respond to that. Like someone said, it seems like you're overcomplicating things, but at the same time, it seems like you're trying to make connections that aren't even there.

well sure, if you think that nature and consequently yourself are 100% perfect exactly the way you are, which I can't necessarily disagree with on an objective level, then yes, no one has anything to improve on.

personally, I want to be a "better person" in subjective (but very human) terms and meditation helps facilitate psychological change.

Not at all. If you want to 'meditate' to relax the body or whatever that's fine and it will work, but it's not what meditation is about. The traditional purpose of meditation is self-realisation or spiritual enlightenment (or psychological). That is, inner as opposed to outer change. If you didn't know that already then you should be reading more and not challenging people in a thread about meditation.



Which is the assumption I've been disputing from the very start.

Not what it's about The thread title and most here are talking about autogenic meditation, your talking about transcendental meditition. Most people, especially in the West, meditate to calm their mind and help relax them to better deal with their busy lives.
Not everyone who meditates is an ascetic, wandering monk seeking enlightenment. You keep trying to bring religion/metaphysics to the forefront of the discussion.

which assumption?

for what it's worth, I am interested in meditation from an "inner discovery" angle (in the Maslow sense) as well as relaxation and tranquility.

I kind of ignored the title as the OP seemed to talk only about meditation. I just looked up 'autogenic meditation' which didn't appear except on a page entitled "higher-self-improvement-pursuits.com". Autogenic Training came up on wikipedia as a method for influencing the autonomic nervous system. If that's meditation then so is just about anything. As for me bringing up metaphysics, this is about the fifth time 'mind' has been mentioned in some context, and not by me.



That meditation helps facilitate psychological change.

you haven't done enough research if you think it doesn't have that capability.

I've both done research on it and practiced it, and neither convinced me that it does have that capability. Besides, if some guru says it does and another says it doesn't who should I believe?

Maybe that's where your going wrong? looking too deeply for something to "grasp" by researching "it", and practicing "it".

Could it be more a question of;



Meditation for me is about simply just being.

Well I've done it, and I know for a fact that it promotes psychological and emotional change. Your argument is invalid.

I think you missed the part where I said I teach meditation professionally, and have meditated myself for a number of years, including having "studied" with people, both religious and non, read probably significantly more books, gone to more lectures, studied the psychology of it (not just "effects" it may have on a person), than the average person - though I'm not going to do what you just did to me and assume that you haven't done the same. I usually wouldn't reply to something as ridiculous as what you've just posted, but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, of course meditation is connected to the "inner". Yes, of course meditation began as a spiritual thing, is still deeply spiritual for many people, and could, in some instances be considered religious.
Meditation is not only about self-realization or "enlightenment" (whatever that means - but that's another philosophical argument for another day), and has never been just about self-realization or "enlightenment", even if you are looking at it as a "religious" practice, or something "inward".
Meditation can be, quite simply, the act of calming the mind, which is, to be frank, relaxation. The act of relaxing through "calming the mind" is something that has been proven scientifically many times. But its seemingly like either a case of semantics with you, or something. Actually, I'm not quite sure?

And I read your post where you said meditation can be just about anything, and that's actually kind of the point. It seems like in your "studies" you missed the chapter on zen meditation, or "mindfulness" (the secular, psychological practice developed in the 1970s which is based on smrti), where it is, essentially, anything. Walking, if you're focused on the action of walking, is meditation. Drinking tea, if you focus on the action of drinking tea, is meditation.

Regarding your guru point - even though we're conditioned to think of a guru as some kind of "authority" in the West, and indeed, many seem to think they are, the traditional point of seeking a guru to begin with is to develop a mindframe of questioning. If a guru tells you something about meditation, you're not supposed to agree with him or her, you're supposed to come to your own conclusions about what they said, regardless if you agree or not. It cultivates, since we're talking gurus here, spiritual development, but in a purely psychological sense, mental development as well. There isn't some kind of "guru consensus", nor is one supposed to, or expected to accept everything a guru says as truth.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you misunderstood him. To be honest, it seems like you're unwilling to consider meditation as anything other than what you believe it to be (linked to a soul, only "spiritual" which isn't good enough for you, etc). At that point, it's best to agree to disagree. (EDIT: I thought Expedience said that. No, I'm not disagreeing with you Kapala. Pardon my shitty attention.)

Or keep the thread going, if anything cool comes out of this debate then I'm all ears. But for anyone talking about a soul, spirituality, etc..



I think it's retarded and sick at the same time that I can cite others' words from posts, although I suppose it's a little redundant. But necessary, seeing as some people don't feel obligated to read other people's posts... And therefore missing huge chunks of the conversation. If you wanted scientific evidence, here it is. You can search for the benefits of meditation and find this as an answer pretty much anywhere you look. To be fair, I'll let those that believe in spirituality go ahead and do so without my calling a delusion of grandeur. If it helps some people out to think of it as that, that's fine. As long as they aren't shoving it in anyone's faces like a religion. For instance, I think there's a greater connection between the minds of different people and the world as a whole. But I'm willing to accept that these "connections" I'm talking about can probably be explained by science, we just don't have the means to do so right this minute.

I think everything can be explained by science without the existence or dependence on the existence of souls, demons, God, or Satan, or anything else that's a little hokey. So as "new-age" or "hippie" as that seems, I think it isn't.

By the way, "spirituality" in many ways is the same thing as religion. It's used to explain something that we feel, but can't explain.

After a really good meditation, or like the trance that I described previously, you do feel pretty enlightened. You're in this alien (for me) state of tranquility and focus, and can say it's because you've increased your astral projection or whatever you want. But it's just the physiological effects of the exercise and the benefits it brings to you psyche.

Religion is similar as a basis of faith. People who lack faith generally have a more negative attitude towards things, and feel helpless. This can lead to all sorts of terrible shit. People who have faith in something have an attitude that's much more positive, they don't feel helpless. If they ever do, they remember "god is there to smooth the path ahead" for them, and carry on.

Meanwhile, people who have faith in their ability experience the same benefits without believing in a God. The idea of faith is what makes religion great, on an individual level. But as I'm sure we've all witnessed, religion sucks for anything more than the individual. Especially if they aren't quiet about it.

So, you may argue that you don't believe in meditation because you think spirituality is bunk. But that only says something about what you think meditation is all about, because you either don't believe or understand that the "spirituality" you feel is so intrinsic and irreplaceable in meditation is just a concept. I don't believe in any kind of souls or gods. I still reap the benefits of meditation when I can calm down my fucking jittery-ass brain.

Dude, just edit your post. There's no reason for you to post twice every time you post once.

Fair enough, I apologize.

I'm almost done my psychology degree so we use hypnosis a lot and I recently took a full class on it. It was very interesting and I encourage others to look into the subject and learn from a professional how to self hypnotize. It's helped me on many occasions and my professor said he can go into such a deep hypnosis he can get dental work done without any kind of local anesthetic. I unfortunately can't teach others how to do it since I'm not a professional yet, but I think it's a great tool and something everyone should learn.
I've heard people say hypnosis is not real, then again I've heard people on YouTube trying to disprove evolution and there's also a flat earth society. If you don't believe it will work, then it won't. The mind is a very powerful and even dangerous tool, but when you start to understand it you gain a better understanding of yourself and others.

There is a saying, "only if you believe." Some people are harder to hypnotize and those who have doubts are also harder. Children are the easiest to hypnotize since they have such good imaginations. If you are a very analytical person then you may also have a harder time. I'm very analytical, but I truly believe in the power of the mind therefore while I'm harder to get into a deep trance, I can still achieve it. In all reality you should believe both, the one that says it doesn't have capability is telling the truth for him, it may not have have any effect on him. If you want it to work and a professional is helping you, you can achieve many things, but if you have doubts and are analytical you won't be convinced of anything you can't see first hand. The irony is by going in with doubts your doubts will be founded.

While I know this is more about meditation, it does have some similarities to hypnosis in what happens in the brain and how it's achieved.

These are good, and important points that definitely are connected to meditation as well. I mean, regardless of how experienced you might be at meditation, if you sit, and think its going to be a "hard day" (re: to meditate), it is.

I don't think it's all that important to try to avoid certain thoughts or preconceived notions or whatever, as long as you're doing it right and you don't attach yourself to the thoughts. See them for what they are: thoughts, ignoring their potential truth value.

@Incantation: If you had to send me to a trusted site so that I could try hypnosis myself... Where would you link me to?

I think it depends on the person, one thing I was taught with hypnosis was that if you have any distracting or invasive thoughts just to let them pass and you'll deal with them later. Your mind naturally will have thoughts pop into your head and if it's something important than you want to remember later you will try to keep thinking about it. This is why some people have trouble sleeping. If you tell yourself that you'll deal with them later and you're just putting them to the side for now it makes it easier to focus on meditating. Both meditation and hypnosis are a very relaxed, but focused state of mind so if you start to have distractions it can hinder your ability to focus. If you say to yourself, "I don't want to think about this now" you may tend to focus on it more, but from what I've seen, when you say "I'll set this aside and I'll get back to it later" you've basically given your subconscious permission to put it off with the knowledge you'll come back to it. I'm not saying ignore all thoughts or ones that are interesting, but something like, "oh I have to get milk tomorrow" is an invasive thought that should be put aside for later.

worlddementia, I know they sell books and cds on it, let me look around and see what I can find for you.

This actually wasn't bad: http://www.wikihow.com/Perform-Self-Hypnosis

The one thing I would not try is to work out any issues that are serious, something like wanting to lose weight, quit smoking, or try harder in school would be fine, but let's say you were abused as a child and want to get over that or even want to forget a bad past relationship, I would see a therapist for that. I use hypnosis to help me sleep sometimes, but I lost my Dad when I was 7 and refuse to use hypnosis for anything to do with that loss. The way my professor described it is you don't want to open pandoras box when you're still a student. I figure it doesn't hurt giving you a site I found online cause anyone could do a google search for something like that, as long as I'm not personally teaching you how to do it then I'm not going to get in trouble, lol.

Hope it helps.

I'm sorry about your father, but that's a good level of restraint on your part. Especially since you know how powerful it can be first hand and practice it, although that may be why you have a handle on it.

No, I just want it to help fix motivational issues. There's nothing traumatic about it. I just have a very jumpy attention. It's hard for me to follow through with goals where there's no SERIOUS perceived pressure. In example, I want to become a great drummer. Like a really fucking insane drummer. But whenever I write out my routines, I find myself not following them, and it's difficult for me to keep a good streak going for a long time. I'm going to feel like absolute shit if I leave this world a mediocre musician with a lot of potential that never pursued the opportunities I have. But because I can't feel that pain now, it's easier to put off. I still practice daily, and I would say this: I'm definitely deliberate, but I lack diligence. It's not a question of doing, it's about HOW I do, how I go about achieving whatever goals I have and sticking to the program.

The cause could be just because I have an "attention disorder" diagnosis, if you want to call it that. Or past things I've had happen to me, and my attitude in general. I'm not associating hypnosis with the ability to like make me forget about a terrible past event or anything. I'm interested in what it can do, however, and I've heard that it can be beneficial for that type of thing.

I'd just be your regular guy and go ask my doctor for adderall, but I've done that all before years ago. It never worked out. Plus, I'd rather have the satisfaction of knowing that I managed my own brain without relying only on drugs and just hoping it'll get better. I'm chasing a positive mindset, and a will-do attitude, I guess you could say. Haha. But excellent, I'll take a look. Thanks!