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Nochielo
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Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:20 am
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Location: Puerto Rico
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:03 am 
 

So I finally checked out Inquisition due to the near universal praise in this site and I have to say I was floored. It is far from groundbreaking but done so right that I knew I stumbled upon something special... 'til the vocals kicked in. Which brings me to my point: I'd like some Inquisition worship with vocals that aren't utter shit.

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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:59 am 
 

The vocals will grow on you, maybe. I think a lot of people are so used to them that it would sound really weird if they changed their vocal style. Their 2 man live shows destroy most other bands too.
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:22 pm 
 

I don't think I'll ever enjoy (or tolerate even) those vocals. I still can't listen to Abbath without wanting to kill him and the Inquisition guy sounds even worse. I usually don't care much for vocals but these ones are so bad that they come really close to deal-breakers to me. So again, Inquisition worship with good vocals.
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MorbidCum
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:54 pm 
 

The vocals will grow on you. I didn't like them at first either. Inquisition is one of the only black metal bands I like. I'm more into the death/gore/grind type stuff but Inquisition is great. The only thing I think could make them possibly better is a good bass player to add a little more depth to the music. Wouldn't change anything else.

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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:07 pm 
 

That's quite alright, I'm not ranting about Inquisition needing a change, I'm saying I'd like bands that sound like that but without that vocal style that I despise. I'd really like it if I could get used to those vocals but my previous experiences with "frog" vocals are that I just can't get into them. So please, I'd like something like Inquisition with a shrieker or like the guy from Valkyrja or something. Any takers?
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AmberSilkAmbiguity
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:20 pm 
 

Dagon from Inquisition is a Classically-trained guitarist. So as you can imagine, his technique as a guitarist will be rather superior to those who do not have a professional training. The sophistication and grandiosity he brings to his compositions is quite unique and rather unparalleled by many, many composers out there. I will not say all BM musicians, as that would be irrational and obviously a gross generalization. But! I say with confidence that he is very original, unique, and an individual that has a good grasp of the Occult (however one-sided and manipulative it is). I will restate my original statement and add that you must not be a Classically trained guitarist to be great a guitarist as many outstanding musicians are self-thought (and quite a great many who aren't). Nonetheless, it definitely vastly improves one's song-writing skills and that very notion reveals itself in Dagon.
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:40 pm 
 

Dagon is a great guitar player, there's no doubt about that and I see why such a talent is rare, however Inquisition being such an important and highly influential act, I'm hopeful such a sound has been competently replicated and that, within this group, there are bands with vocalists that don't drag the music down.
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AmberSilkAmbiguity
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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:43 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:43 am 
 

Nochielo wrote:
Dagon is a great guitar player, there's no doubt about that and I see why such a talent is rare, however Inquisition being such an important and highly influential act, I'm hopeful such a sound has been competently replicated and that, within this group, there are bands with vocalists that don't drag the music down.


Indeed. Dagon's vocals, I will not say "will need some getting used to," but that he's vocals come from a somewhat narrow-minded perspective and his state-of-mind in being "different," for the sake of itself and no further thought in a creation that does not quite literally sound like a frog. This matter becomes most difficult to take seriously, quite frankly said. It is a big hole in Inquisition's musical creations. So, point well taken. :)

EDIT: And Dagon has comfortably confessed his great affinity for Thrash.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:15 am 
 

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
Dagon from Inquisition is a Classically-trained guitarist. So as you can imagine, his technique as a guitarist will be rather superior to those who do not have a professional training. The sophistication and grandiosity he brings to his compositions is quite unique and rather unparalleled by many, many composers out there. I will not say all BM musicians, as that would be irrational and obviously a gross generalization. But! I say with confidence that he is very original, unique, and an individual that has a good grasp of the Occult (however one-sided and manipulative it is). I will restate my original statement and add that you must not be a Classically trained guitarist to be great a guitarist as many outstanding musicians are self-thought (and quite a great many who aren't). Nonetheless, it definitely vastly improves one's song-writing skills and that very notion reveals itself in Dagon.

What might this classical training be? Has he studied composition, or why do you think it improves his songwriting skills so substantially?

I haven't listened to Inquisition very extensively despite the overblown hype, since I never got very far with them before becoming utterly bored. Personally I hear nothing even remotely exceptional in his songwriting. Some of his riffs are quite good, but technically, someone with the musical sophistication of a boozing thrasher can come up with similar, really.

His vocals are quite terrible. I don't understand the appeal.
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HellishHound
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:15 pm 
 

I'm so glad I'm not the only one can't get into Inquisition because of the vocals. It's the exact same reason why I refuse/can't listen to Immortal. Frog vocals just detract from black metal for me I need those shrieks man...those shrieks.
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AmberSilkAmbiguity
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:35 pm 
 

@Ilwhyan: You wrote: "someone with the musical sophistication of a boozing thrasher can come up with similar, really."

The highlighted part of your statement stands out because you are purely speculating about something and you're not presenting any evidence. I don't specifically know about what "kind" training he has, and, nor I am interested in his life-story. As far I have heard in interviews, he is indeed Classically-trained and you can heard it (or I can recognized it) in the acoustics passages of which is evident in the "structure" of his composing. The guitarist from Necros Christos, is also a Classically-trained musician.

Of course, there are other musicians in Metal who can compose acoustic passages but it bowls down to the structure of the melodies and how they begin and end (which of course a Classically-trained musician will be in a better position). I don't think you can deny the fact the a trained musician CAN have something of a "substantial" nature in his compositional values. No, I don't think there is anything special in Dagon compositional skills overall. However, I will say that some of the "melodies chosen" in his music, one must admit are quite outstanding. Ihsahn, on the other hand, that is not Classically-trained, composes an album like Prometheus that is soaked with Baroque counterpoint and fantastic structure. It is also evident in his other compositions in an album like Anthems.

It helps substantially for a musician to have some training in music because it well inevitably, and undeniably, be a great assess for someone composing serious music. Take a look at Septicflesh. Christos Antoniou has a Master's in Orchestration from a prominent school. Do you not think it is because of his training in orchestration than he can create such captivating string arrangements? Many, many brilliant Classical composers studied the phenomena of counterpoint either early in their career or later in their compositions. And then, we have someone like Akerfeldt that as far I know, has no training at all and still has a great capability of making fantastic music, nonetheless. So you have a few examples of musicians with Classical training or others, without. I have heard many times that the closest comparison people have made with Opeth's music is composers like Mozart and Beethoven.

Altogether, in the case of Dagon... No there's isn't, ultimately anything spectacularly different about his usual riffage, but, there are parts in his creations where one with a background in Classical music will recognize him as someone that is not a superior composer, but merely has the education in terms of leaps of melodies, structure, and don't forget that I mentioned "Technique" at the very beginning of my statement; Technique in how you play in certain scales can help immensely in how it "sounds." And a trained musician that can read music and quite naturally has the ability to follow certain free-flowing standards "makes" his music much better structured. No, a drunken Thrasher cannot make superior music to someone that is Classically trained. That's absurd.

No, Hetfield cannot make better music than Vivaldi. And nor can Hetfield make anything remotely close to Ihsahn. And one of the main reasons Mustain is such a great guitarist is that, well, surprise, surprise, he's Classically-trained!

Edit: By Classically trained is someone that specializes in one or two instruments.
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Last edited by AmberSilkAmbiguity on Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ilwhyan
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Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:56 pm 
 

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
@Ilwhyan: You wrote: "someone with the musical sophistication of a boozing thrasher can come up with similar, really."

The highlighted part of your statement stands out because you are purely speculating about something and you're not presenting any evidence. I don't specifically know about what "kind" training he has, and, nor I am interested in his life-story. As far I have heard in interviews, he is indeed Classically-trained and you can heard it (or I can recognized it) in the acoustics passages of which is evident in the "structure" of his composing. The guitarist from Necros Christos, is also a Classically-trained musician.

Evidence? I'm relating my thoughts on the music, merely. There is no proof or evidence, just reasoning. I don't know if I'm being unreasonable pursuing this Inquisition argument to this length, since I'm only familiar with the three latest Inquisition albums (which seem to improve vastly chronologically). However, I definitely want to make a point about the possible benefits of classical training.

No, I don't particularly recall hearing Dagon's classical guitar pieces, but I assume we're disussing black metal anyway. As far as his black metal writing goes, it's fundamentally simple, even to the point of making that certain minimalism one of Inquisition's defining characteristics. Apparently that minimalism is appealing to you lot, seeing that the band is praised to almost no end every now and then, but what I hear is fairly undeveloped musical ideas that are seem to have absolutely nothing to do with classical music. At worst, many of those ideas are utterly insipid, and without any manner of elegance or grace. Though the band has become increasingly melodic and atmospheric with time, most of the riffs still sound undeveloped to me.

Nevertheless, I stress that my experience with the band is limited, and admittedly Ominous Doctrines seemed to me a vast improvement in those departments.

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
Of course, there are other musicians in Metal who can compose acoustic passages but it bowls down to the structure of the melodies and how they begin and end (which of course a Classically-trained musician will be in a better position).
That's obviously true, but it's beyond the scope of my argument by a margin, and not relevant to the matter.

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
I don't think you can deny the fact the a trained musician CAN have something of a "substantial" nature in his compositional values. No, I don't think there is anything special in Dagon compositional skills overall. However, I will say that some of the "melodies chosen" in his music, one must admit are quite outstanding. Ihsahn, on the other hand, that is not Classically-trained, composes an album like Prometheus that is soaked with Baroque counterpoint and fantastic structure. It is also evident in his other compositions in an album like Anthems.
What I mean to argue is whether classical training in an instrument can provide any substantial aid to writing metal. Study of classical music itself definitely should inspire a composer, and if talented enough to realise that inspiration in the context of metal, influence of classical music can definitely improve metal songwriting. It can also hinder it, of course, as overcomplicating things for the sake of excess would certainly do. But one must understand the distinction between being classically trained in an instrument and being influenced by classical music in the department of songwriting. They are obviously two separate things that probably correlate to some degree, but one shouldn't jump the gun and assume that anyone who's classically trained would automatically implement masterful compositional techniques used by Beethoven, or write three simultaneous counterpoints like J.S. Bach.

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
It helps substantially for a musician to have some training in music because it well inevitably, and undeniably, be a great assess for someone composing serious music. Take a look at Septicflesh. Christos Antoniou has a Master's in Orchestration from a prominent school. Do you not think it is because of his training in orchestration than he can create such captivating string arrangements? Many, many brilliant Classical composers studied the phenomena of counterpoint either early in their career or later in their compositions. And then, we have someone like Akerfeldt that as far I know, has no training at all and still has a great capability of making fantastic music, nonetheless. So you have a few examples of musicians with Classical training or others, without. I have heard many times that the closest comparison people have made with Opeth's music is composers like Mozart and Beethoven.

Altogether, in the case of Dagon... No there's isn't, ultimately anything spectacularly different about his usual riffage, but, there are parts in his creations where one with a background in Classical music will recognize him as someone that is not a superior composer, but merely has the education in terms of leaps of melodies, structure, and don't forget that I mentioned "Technique" at the very beginning of my statement; Technique in how you play in certain scales can help immensely in how it "sounds." And a trained musician that can read music and quite naturally has the ability to follow certain free-flowing standards "makes" his music much for better structured. No, a drunken Thrasher cannot make superior music to someone that is Classically trained. That's absurd.

No, Hetfield cannot make better music than Vivaldi. And nor can Hetfield make anything remotely close to Ihsahn. And one of the main reasons Mustain is such a great guitarist is that, well, surprise, surprise, he's Classically-trained!

Yeah, interestingly I consider Septic Flesh insipid and plastic especially due to the orchestration and the emphasis that they've put on that hollow mimicry of orchestral music in their songwriting instead of riffing, melody, atmosphere and so on. A drunken thrasher can easily dish out music far superior to the pretentious ejaculations of a self-deluded artist, regardless of their training. I also consider Mustaine an extremely overrated musician, whom you mentioned as an example of a guitarist brilliant mostly thanks to his training. His strength was riff writing, but even in that department he was hardly unsurpassed even in his prime.

Opeth? Comparing them to Mozart is madness. Opeth played a fusion of dark progressive rock and extreme metal, now merely prog rock. Comparisons to classical composers are incredibly far-fetched and deluded.

Also think for a moment what classical training like Dagon's really brings to the table. Does is vastly improve one's ability to come up with brilliant melodies? Hardly. It's an innate ability which can be hindered by lack of practice, but there were great classical composers, grandmasters even, who could hardly write great melodies (Beethoven), and there were also poor composers whose melodies and themes alone were so excellent that they earned them considerable reputation (Schumann). Inquisition's music is, incidentally, very poorly paced and structured. The ability to read music is probably completely irrelevant in the realm of composing metal, considering that it's dominated by fretted string instruments whose parts can be written in tabs.

Quote:
No, a drunken Thrasher cannot make superior music to someone that is Classically trained. That's absurd.

This claim is absurd. Of course they can. I at least gauge the quality of music based on my personal enjoyment of it; if you have some kind of a technical checklist you go through, good for you I guess. Vivaldi and Hetfield is an absurd comparison. One of them was a violin virtuoso who composed baroque operas and concertos, the other is a thrash metal guitarist and one of the fastest downpickers in metal. Mustaine and Hetfield would be a more valid comparison, and I rather enjoy Hetfield's songs more, actually.

Also, interesting that you should mention Mustaine's classical training, as he was definitely the drunken thrasher of the 80s. :lol:
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AmberSilkAmbiguity
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:25 pm 
 

1. In terms of Evidence: You relate your thoughts to music? There is no proof? Just reasoning? I'm not entirely sure by your incredibly ambiguous line of thinking here! You're an intelligent man. It is very common for a man that claims something wide in scope to have a fundamental basis, a principle for his substantial claim. You cannot say I have a thought, but I have no reasoning to back up my rather subjective important claim which I have made.

2. As I have mentioned a classically trained musician CAN, and I stress the contingency of the word CAN in composing better music than someone that is self-thought. Study of classical music really should not be necessary for inspiration but only an imitation for those who merely influenced by it. Yes, most definitely; someone that has listened to a lot classical music, even unconsciously, will be influenced by his or her compositions in general. I did not say anything about complexity nor any grandiose arrangements. One the greatest in Classical music, Beethoven, compose fairly simply. Yes, there is a distinction between someone that is merely influenced by classical music and someone that is trained in that department. Yes, obviously there is a correlation and I did not in any way assume, as you say, that someone with classically trained state of mind will automatically become the next Beethoven. Nonetheless, it is quite apparent in an album like Prometheus that Ihsahn sometimes is activating 3 or 4 melodies just appearing to a casual listener in the discipline of rhythm, structure, and melody.

3. Again, not quite certain what you mean by mimicry here? Septicflesh's orchestration are very unique and the only thing they come close to are film scores in terms of the excitement. So the notion of mimicry does not really relate in the case you are referring it to. They do have melody, atmosphere and riffage. If you cannot hear the atmosphere in Septicflesh's music then I have nothing further to explain here. A drunken Thrasher can do better than the pretentiousness of SF? How exactly? He does not pretend to anything. He is classically trained. Your response in this case is quite obviously an emotional response and you also seem to be very keen on getting shit-faced and playing some mindless Thrash, it appears.

4. Comparing Opeth to Classical music is absurd? You seem not to have authentic and validating knowledge in this department. Many Progressive Rock Musicians took great inspiration from Classical music. It is quite apparent to me that you are indeed here "jumping the gun." One of the genres in Prog Rock is Elected Prog Rock and it's takes on the complexity and the sophistication of Classical compositions. Bands like Gentle Giant, Egg, and National Health. My comparison to Classical music is not literal but comparative. Comparative in terms of complexity, layers, density, and ultimately structure.

5. Brilliant Melodies? Yes, it can. But it does not have to. I do not speak of necessity but only of possibility. Creating melodies is innate in a person? I don't think that holds any water, buddy. Melody is purely an effect of one certain musician that has been influenced by a past musician. If the former is genius, he will take his undeveloped ideas, and create something with the help of latter to compose something that is neither his or the one who has influenced him. So yes, someone that is classically trained has the freedom to manoeuvre freely in potentially infinite possibilities for melodies (as of the complex structure of melodies that might be concealed to some without an education). This is because he is aware of former structures imbued in his mind playing the melody on the instrument. A piece like The Rite of Spring. The complex and unorthodox structure in the melodies would only come from a person that is trained as a musician. It is different in the case of Dagon as he is nowhere close to the greats and making such claim would be absolutely absurd. Beethoven hardly wrote great melodies? What in the heavens are you talking about? Yeah you're right, he didn't write melodies, he wrote anthems. Beethoven was the most important figure in the history of classical music. So I would educate myself a bit more in that arena before making such a meaningless claim. Again, an emotional response that has no logic.

6. Mustain? Well, at least he was a trained drunk. :lol:

Cheers :metal:
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:20 pm 
 

You're arguing semantics to a paintaking degree, not to mention on a bafflingly irrelevant point. What kind of evidence can one provide of matters of personal opinion, other than verbal expression of said views? Or do you believe there is but one truth and opinions differ in value in the degree to which they approximate it?

Certainly, if one aims to write contrapuntally intricate music, knowledge of classical music is quite useful, and classical training in any instrument will at least provide the composer with examples of brilliantly composed music (as the material that they practice and perform, of course) that they can familiarise themselves with and thus be influenced by. But even if you could argue that classical training was imperative for such musical complexity to be implemented in metal composition, do you seriously argue that it will inherently improve said composition? I for one have nothing but distaste for most of Ihsahn's work. I can think of beautiful contrapuntal stuff in metal, but it's hardly something that invariably sits well within the context of metal, especially the more intricate and complex it becomes, and it's definitely not something that invariably enhances any metal composition.

I don't know how much clearer I can put my thoughts about Septic Flesh. Septic Flesh's pseudo-orchestral synth arragements sound like a hollow mimicry of actual symphonic music. Take for example Sumerian Daemons and the intro "Behold... the Land of Promise", or the pompous synth in the latter part of "Red Code Cult", or the silly choir that's everywhere. It has no value besides being superficially reminiscent of symphonic music and bringing to the music what I consider an ill-fitting and superfluous epic flair. Nothing I've heard resembles a musically interesting theme or motif in itself. The best I can think of is just before the outro of Communion; for a moment the synth orchestra actually resembles something that might've developed into something interesting. I find such arrangements to be painfully out of place in metal. I'll much rather listen to early Sodom than Wintersun's latest trainwreck. Much, much rather.

Because certain progressive rock bands were influenced by classical composers, Opeth, who were influenced by some (which ones? are they the same ones that were classically influenced) prog bands are comparable to Mozart? It's such a long shot. You called me out for not providing evidence - set an example and do so yourself. Musically speaking, Opeth's finesse is at its greatest in the early twin guitar melodies, since many of them are brilliantly contrapuntal. Other than that, Martin Lopez's drumming was quite excellent, and Damnation had nicely done atmospheric effects that made it an emotionally powerful album even though it didn't have much anything out of ordinary besides a couple of beautiful guitar solos. Intricate and well planned music, certainly; definitely more so than most metal. Comparable to symphony? Never. Why do you capitalise genre names, by the way?

Judging on how you described the process of coming up with melodies, you have an utterly backward idea of how metal is composed, at least. Are you even talking about metal anymore?

If creating melodies is not an innate ability, how can you explain the difference in skill between certain fairly unskilled composers with excellent ear for melody and brilliant composers with little outstanding in the way of melodies in their entire body of work? As a metal example, Varg Vikernes had an uncanny ear for melody despite his compositional clumsiness and utter lack of knowledge and skill. Anata's Fredrik Schälin probably can't quite match Ihsahn or, say, Jari Mäenpää, in creating complex arrangements, but boy does his music blow the lot out of the water. Schälin's melodies are unique, intricate and instantly recognisable as his. If you can trace back his trademark style to some earlier musicians, do tell me. Besides being vaguely related to Edge of Sanity circa Unorthodox, I'm fairly lost. Indeed, melodies that we write - increasingly so the more intricate they become - mirror our personalities to a very high degree. Great melodies come from a much deeper source than lenghty study of predecessors.

And I stand by my claim that Beethoven wrote hardly any melodies out or ordinary. That's not integral to his success at all. AS far as I understand, he is considered a grandmaster mostly for his compositional skills and the unparalleled use or orchestra in hs work, not because he coated his work with mindblowing melodies. Sure, if you like his melodies over something like Sibelius, Schumann, Rachmaninov, Dvorák or, hell, Prokofiev, you're welcome to do so. That just means we disagree on what consitutes a great melody on a highly fundamental level. I'm not an expert of classical music, but merely telling me to educate myself doesn't disprove any of my claims alone, nor does it help your point come across. I'm here to discuss and possibly learn from those more educated than myself, and at least I like to pretend humility, but please, for the love of discussion, make a bloody distinction between what's fact and what's completely subjective.
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jute
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:26 pm 
 

As Ilwhyan said, the opinion that Beethoven wasn't a great melodist is a common and reasonable one, and has no bearing on the quality of his work because his work is not reliant on big themes. Do you really think "Ode to Joy" or the fate motif are so special? Beethoven's skills are developmental and he needs themes that are pliant and transformable, not fixed and self-sufficient.

I don't understand why the metalheads who love comparing metal to classical/academic/art music often seem so uninformed about it. If you like metal, and you really think metal and classical music have so much in common, then why not learn more about it? There's a lot to enjoy beyond Beethoven, Bach, and the perpetually-namedropped Stravinsky.

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AmberSilkAmbiguity
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:42 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
You're arguing semantics to a paintaking degree, not to mention on a bafflingly irrelevant point. What kind of evidence can one provide of matters of personal opinion, other than verbal expression of said views? Or do you believe there is but one truth and opinions differ in value in the degree to which they approximate it?

Certainly, if one aims to write contrapuntally intricate music, knowledge of classical music is quite useful, and classical training in any instrument will at least provide the composer with examples of brilliantly composed music (as the material that they practice and perform, of course) that they can familiarise themselves with and thus be influenced by. But even if you could argue that classical training was imperative for such musical complexity to be implemented in metal composition, do you seriously argue that it will inherently improve said composition? I for one have nothing but distaste for most of Ihsahn's work. I can think of beautiful contrapuntal stuff in metal, but it's hardly something that invariably sits well within the context of metal, especially the more intricate and complex it becomes, and it's definitely not something that invariably enhances any metal composition.

I don't know how much clearer I can put my thoughts about Septic Flesh. Septic Flesh's pseudo-orchestral synth arragements sound like a hollow mimicry of actual symphonic music. Take for example Sumerian Daemons and the intro "Behold... the Land of Promise", or the pompous synth in the latter part of "Red Code Cult", or the silly choir that's everywhere. It has no value besides being superficially reminiscent of symphonic music and bringing to the music what I consider an ill-fitting and superfluous epic flair. Nothing I've heard resembles a musically interesting theme or motif in itself. The best I can think of is just before the outro of Communion; for a moment the synth orchestra actually resembles something that might've developed into something interesting. I find such arrangements to be painfully out of place in metal. I'll much rather listen to early Sodom than Wintersun's latest trainwreck. Much, much rather.

Because certain progressive rock bands were influenced by classical composers, Opeth, who were influenced by some (which ones? are they the same ones that were classically influenced) prog bands are comparable to Mozart? It's such a long shot. You called me out for not providing evidence - set an example and do so yourself. Musically speaking, Opeth's finesse is at its greatest in the early twin guitar melodies, since many of them are brilliantly contrapuntal. Other than that, Martin Lopez's drumming was quite excellent, and Damnation had nicely done atmospheric effects that made it an emotionally powerful album even though it didn't have much anything out of ordinary besides a couple of beautiful guitar solos. Intricate and well planned music, certainly; definitely more so than most metal. Comparable to symphony? Never. Why do you capitalise genre names, by the way?

Judging on how you described the process of coming up with melodies, you have an utterly backward idea of how metal is composed, at least. Are you even talking about metal anymore?

If creating melodies is not an innate ability, how can you explain the difference in skill between certain fairly unskilled composers with excellent ear for melody and brilliant composers with little outstanding in the way of melodies in their entire body of work? As a metal example, Varg Vikernes had an uncanny ear for melody despite his compositional clumsiness and utter lack of knowledge and skill. Anata's Fredrik Schälin probably can't quite match Ihsahn or, say, Jari Mäenpää, in creating complex arrangements, but boy does his music blow the lot out of the water. Schälin's melodies are unique, intricate and instantly recognisable as his. If you can trace back his trademark style to some earlier musicians, do tell me. Besides being vaguely related to Edge of Sanity circa Unorthodox, I'm fairly lost. Indeed, melodies that we write - increasingly so the more intricate they become - mirror our personalities to a very high degree. Great melodies come from a much deeper source than lenghty study of predecessors.

And I stand by my claim that Beethoven wrote hardly any melodies out or ordinary. That's not integral to his success at all. AS far as I understand, he is considered a grandmaster mostly for his compositional skills and the unparalleled use or orchestra in hs work, not because he coated his work with mindblowing melodies. Sure, if you like his melodies over something like Sibelius, Schumann, Rachmaninov, Dvorák or, hell, Prokofiev, you're welcome to do so. That just means we disagree on what consitutes a great melody on a highly fundamental level. I'm not an expert of classical music, but merely telling me to educate myself doesn't disprove any of my claims alone, nor does it help your point come across. I'm here to discuss and possibly learn from those more educated than myself, and at least I like to pretend humility, but please, for the love of discussion, make a bloody distinction between what's fact and what's completely subjective.


1. I am not of a belief that there is this "objective" reality and all thoughts and believes must gravitate towards that "objective certainty." Quite to the contrary, I am of the conviction that Truth lies in many different forms. In many different and arising from different disciplines and arts to be discovered and already revealed in the history as we know it. So, art, literature, architecture, politics, poets, etc, are all constantly revealing different Truths in creative, original and most basically in "outside the box thinking." I do not mean to be tedious. That would be my weakness to merely correct your language. My point about a principle basis for your argument is only alluding to you, as the carrier of an opinion, must in any fashion possible and have a substantial "line of reasoning" however complex or simple it might, so we can work from that to either more simplicity or complexity. In other words, it must have a direction.

2. That is fine. You don't like Ihsahn. I have nothing against it, as it is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I will say, however, that classical training can be great assess to make one that has great passion in Metal for it to become even more fascinating. I am not saying that it is a necessary basis, as in the case that, anyone that does not have former training as a professional musician is incompetent upon making great music. No, that's the farthest from the truth. You are here putting a necessity in my words that in essence in my argumentation does exist neither explicitly nor implicitly state that.

3. Your third point is completely subjective so I will not argue again (as I have made my point clear) on this matter. Septicflesh's music has nothing to do with being "pompous." It's sophisticated, layered, and very pleasant. That's my opinion, it is rigid and will not be changed.

4. I did provide examples. Please go back and read more precisely. Opeth's music is much more layered than two guitar counteracting. Again, you are not reading me clearly. I vividly stated that I am not making a literal claim but only one that is relative. Metal in general has the capability to capture orchestration without having a 90 piece symphony. It has the capability to capture the power and grandeur, the might and the glory of orchestration without 400 strings involved. The emotional effect of the greats of Metal music can be compared relatively logically with the "emotional connectivity and heights of emotion," "the grand arrangements," and ultimately the participatory movements of all instruments towards a wall of sound. Opeth's Damnation had only a few good tracks? I couldn't disagree more with your statement. Damnation was album that has the artistic ability and the originality to sound so sinister yet be so tranquillized and peaceful. You call that an easy sound to accomplish? Well, in that case, you must be a very accomplished musician! You seem to disregard the obvious greats of Metal for the sake of a subjective argumentation when there are obvious factors of genius that become timeless in the long run and those are the ones that survive. The likes of Opeth and Ihsahn.

5. I don't care for this point and will not elaborate any further on it.

6. I agree with the latter part of your argumentation. I have a difficult time with your long first sentence that seem not to get to point and diverge so much. This is, insofar as, you don't make a contrary opinion that differs from mine so much that it does not validate for a counterargument.

7. I did not say that Beethoven wrote anything fascinatingly beyond all belief. I think he made, in fact, compared to those who came after him, rather ordinary music. But the depth of his melodies and the sheer power and emotion in his music is uncompromised. The reason I told you to educate yourself is because you speak so lowly of Beethoven, where, there is no denying that he merged the "Classical" period and the "Romantic" period into one and opened the gateway for an entire movement. For that he deserves and demands one's respect regardless of your poor opinion about him. I rarely, if ever listen to Beethoven anymore. No, I love Sibelius and Rachmaninoff. I think Sibelius is brilliant. Absolutely brilliant, in fact. His first symphony and the beginning melody of the first movement is in itself, I would say, sublime.

Most important point: The difference between subjective and objective in music. Well, in music it would be something that is naively described. But when you say that Beethoven has no essential value, and Ihsahn is really not talented... Then there comes a point where logic and emotion collide. There comes point where one cannot find a balance where something is "distasteful" to them, on the one hand, but, they, nonetheless, recognize it as something of an objective reality in communities, and more as validating by music critiques around the world. There comes a point that 1 might have an opinion contrary to the 9 other. Does that mean the 1 that differs in opinion compared to the other 9, is wrong? No. But that does mean that there is a point in the rationality and affect of the perceiver which differs in opinion to others that he sees his "standards" the "schema" of his personality, and ultimately the "looking-glass" of his reality, not compatible with what appears to the object of critique. If you are one those Post-Modernist that says that everything is "subjective," even the most hard based science, then I would tell that what you say is also a perspective! What is bowls down to is interior-subjectivity which is the agreement of many of one subject insofar as if 5 in a 100 people disagree with a certain matter, it ultimately does not matter. What matter is the agreement of the many, and not of a few. The disagreement of one or two individuals on something that many have already been agreed upon fades into oblivion. That's where rationality comes into place. The following statement: "Maiden's 80's material is fantastic." I believe many Metallers would agree to that. "Maiden 80's stuff is shit." I believe not that many Metallers would agree to that either. Objectivity in music is the agreement of the many over a few. It is a participatory agreement on something substantial.
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Markov
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:59 am 
 

Anyone know of any black metal that has riffs/melodies similar to Sargiest's works or Quantos Possunt ad Satanitatem Trahunt by Gorgoroth? You know, those "romantic" melodies and riffings. They're the only two bands that I can really give out as an example. Swedish melodic black metal does this a *bit* similarly, but not quite as low tuned or something.
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AmberSilkAmbiguity
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:20 am 
 

Markov wrote:
Anyone know of any black metal that has riffs/melodies similar to Sargiest's works or Quantos Possunt ad Satanitatem Trahunt by Gorgoroth? You know, those "romantic" melodies and riffings. They're the only two bands that I can really give out as an example. Swedish melodic black metal does this a *bit* similarly, but not quite as low tuned or something.


Mystic Forest might be your answer.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:29 am 
 

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
My point about a principle basis for your argument is only alluding to you, as the carrier of an opinion, must in any fashion possible and have a substantial "line of reasoning" however complex or simple it might, so we can work from that to either more simplicity or complexity. In other words, it must have a direction.
I do think I provided the aforementioned, much moreso than you did.

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
4. I did provide examples. Please go back and read more precisely. Opeth's music is much more layered than two guitar counteracting. Again, you are not reading me clearly. I vividly stated that I am not making a literal claim but only one that is relative. Metal in general has the capability to capture orchestration without having a 90 piece symphony. It has the capability to capture the power and grandeur, the might and the glory of orchestration without 400 strings involved. The emotional effect of the greats of Metal music can be compared relatively logically with the "emotional connectivity and heights of emotion," "the grand arrangements," and ultimately the participatory movements of all instruments towards a wall of sound. Opeth's Damnation had only a few good tracks? I couldn't disagree more with your statement. Damnation was album that has the artistic ability and the originality to sound so sinister yet be so tranquillized and peaceful. You call that an easy sound to accomplish? Well, in that case, you must be a very accomplished musician! You seem to disregard the obvious greats of Metal for the sake of a subjective argumentation when there are obvious factors of genius that become timeless in the long run and those are the ones that survive. The likes of Opeth and Ihsahn.
I don't mean to be obtuse, but I did go back and failed to find your examples. You're welcome to cite them again.

Metal can indeed convey grandeur unlike most other genres of the popular music tradition, but nothing I've heard can compare to the sheer immensity of a symphony orchestra. Have you heard a concert in a high quality concert hall? It's an experience that no metal live show can even begin to rival in terms of sound. Nor should it seek to. The strengths of metal as a genre are completely different, and it shouldn't even begin to attempt competition with classical music in the fields where the latter is strong. Nothing can, you see, and attempts to through synthetisation are more often laughably flat and superfluous than not.

As for what I said about Damnation, Beethoven etc, you're doing my words a lot of wrong. Firstly, I didn't say Damnation didn't have more than a few good tracks. Most of the tracks are in fact quite good; they're simply not made good by exceptionally innovative musical elements such as beautiful melody (other than Åkerfeldt's great guitar solos in tracks like Windowpane and To Rid the Disease), but rather subtle atmospheric effects and very thoroughly designed soundscapes. What I mean that while it's a beautifully crafted album that's quite enjoyable to listen to, most of its its material isn't highly compelling. Secondly, I didn't speak lowly of Beethoven. Obviously, I was assessing an element of his compositions relevant to my argument, rather than reviewing his work and influence as a whole. Clearly jute understood my meaning quite well. I wholeheartedly agree with his post, incidentally.
jute wrote:
As Ilwhyan said, the opinion that Beethoven wasn't a great melodist is a common and reasonable one, and has no bearing on the quality of his work because his work is not reliant on big themes. Do you really think "Ode to Joy" or the fate motif are so special? Beethoven's skills are developmental and he needs themes that are pliant and transformable, not fixed and self-sufficient.

I don't understand why the metalheads who love comparing metal to classical/academic/art music often seem so uninformed about it. If you like metal, and you really think metal and classical music have so much in common, then why not learn more about it? There's a lot to enjoy beyond Beethoven, Bach, and the perpetually-namedropped Stravinsky.
Although I haven't noticed Stravinsky being perpetually namedropped, besides Wagner he seems to be the commoner most commonly alluded to metal. Rites of Spring could be described as brutal, really.

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
6. I agree with the latter part of your argumentation. I have a difficult time with your long first sentence that seem not to get to point and diverge so much. This is, insofar as, you don't make a contrary opinion that differs from mine so much that it does not validate for a counterargument.
Simply put, there are extremely skillful composers who are inferior in their melodies than much less skilled composers.

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
But when you say that Beethoven has no essential value, and Ihsahn is really not talented...

Where? Quote my saying that, please.

AmberSilkAmbiguity wrote:
Then there comes a point where logic and emotion collide. There comes point where one cannot find a balance where something is "distasteful" to them, on the one hand, but, they, nonetheless, recognize it as something of an objective reality in communities, and more as validating by music critiques around the world. There comes a point that 1 might have an opinion contrary to the 9 other. Does that mean the 1 that differs in opinion compared to the other 9, is wrong? No. But that does mean that there is a point in the rationality and affect of the perceiver which differs in opinion to others that he sees his "standards" the "schema" of his personality, and ultimately the "looking-glass" of his reality, not compatible with what appears to the object of critique. If you are one those Post-Modernist that says that everything is "subjective," even the most hard based science, then I would tell that what you say is also a perspective! What is bowls down to is interior-subjectivity which is the agreement of many of one subject insofar as if 5 in a 100 people disagree with a certain matter, it ultimately does not matter. What matter is the agreement of the many, and not of a few. The disagreement of one or two individuals on something that many have already been agreed upon fades into oblivion. That's where rationality comes into place. The following statement: "Maiden's 80's material is fantastic." I believe many Metallers would agree to that. "Maiden 80's stuff is shit." I believe not that many Metallers would agree to that either. Objectivity in music is the agreement of the many over a few. It is a participatory agreement on something substantial.
There's no slippery slope of subjectivity. It's merely that perception of good music is entirely subjective. The majority of people are into artistically worthless music, and the most educated music enthusiasts are into music that's used to repel loitering teenagers in malls at night. It's easy to begin to see patterns of the objectively good within the realm of metal listeners, but consider for a moment the nu-metal movement of 90s, and include that to your perception of metal listeners. The more you widen the audience, the more impossible it becomes. The only thing you can say about Iron Maiden's 80s classics is that they managed to make music that most metalheads enjoy. However, you can't expect every metal enthusiast to enjoy it, and you can't accurately assess anyone's metal sophistication based on their enjoyment of 80s Maiden, even if there's considerable correlation.

I don't think metal should primarily seek to be artistically worthwhile, anyway. I listen to it for the enjoyment it brings me outright, not for deep subtleties and intricacies that metal musicians in general aren't very skillful at conveying (there are exceptions, but incidentally I find few of them very enjoyable).
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:45 am 
 

Markov wrote:
Anyone know of any black metal that has riffs/melodies similar to Sargiest's works or Quantos Possunt ad Satanitatem Trahunt by Gorgoroth? You know, those "romantic" melodies and riffings. They're the only two bands that I can really give out as an example. Swedish melodic black metal does this a *bit* similarly, but not quite as low tuned or something.

You know Arckanum already, don't you?

Baptism - Grim Arts of Melancholy: It's slightly more reminiscent of earlier Sargeist than later, but the melodies are more uplifting like in later Sargeist.
Prevalent Resistance - To Live Again And Dominate & Dynamics of Creation: Similar to earlier Sargeist, but with more uplifting melodies in the vein of later. Not as depressive as Baptism.
Cosmic Church - Absoluutin Lävistämä: Slower and calmer, but you'll probably enjoy it.
Teloch - Morbid Prayer

In a slightly different style, Belenos - Spicilège might fit the bill. It's more pagan black metal, but the riffs are definitely in that, well, romantic style.

Vitsaus definitely fits the bill, but is it too dismal for you? I recall you liking more melodic and uplifting stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMLznMCmpE0
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Tempered_Steel
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:18 pm 
 

I hate to be anal, but this classical music training argument does not belong in this thread. Please take it elsewhere.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:33 pm 
 

Tempered_Steel wrote:
I hate to be anal, but this classical music training argument does not belong in this thread. Please take it elsewhere.

If you see something that's against the rules, you're expected to report it to the moderators instead of acting like you have some power. You're right though, we were getting carried away. I'll respond to AmberSilkAmbiguity's further posts in another more appropriate thread, if he chooses to make one.
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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:52 pm 
 

Markov wrote:
Anyone know of any black metal that has riffs/melodies similar to Sargiest's works or Quantos Possunt ad Satanitatem Trahunt by Gorgoroth? You know, those "romantic" melodies and riffings. They're the only two bands that I can really give out as an example. Swedish melodic black metal does this a *bit* similarly, but not quite as low tuned or something.


Have suggested these before, but "Folkvang - Six Stories Without Keys" is probably the closest thing to that Sargeist album as far as the fast "romantic" but still dark melodies.
"Lutomysl - De Profundis" and Self Titled album
Darkened Nocturn Slaughtercult - check out the new album "Necrovision" and the song "To Necromancy" from Hora Nocturna
If you have not heard "Behexen - From the Devil's Chalice" or anything by Mgla, Blodsrit, Flagellant (Swe) or Astriaal, those bands may also be to your liking. These all have similarities to that Sargeist or Gorgoroth album I think.

As far as the Inquisition argument goes, their latest album "Ominous Doctrines of the blah blah..." is by far their best and the riffs are very unique and uncopied... If you like the riffs you gotta suffer through the vocals. Also, Abbath has gotten less froggy over the years, but it was all down hill after BITN :\
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:32 pm 
 

Sick6Six wrote:
As far as the Inquisition argument goes, their latest album "Ominous Doctrines of the blah blah..." is by far their best and the riffs are very unique and uncopied... If you like the riffs you gotta suffer through the vocals.

I refuse to believe such a thing, there must be a band that loves Inquisition and has a decent singer. If what you propose is indeed correct, then you have saved me a lot of time: Inquisition is dead to me.
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AmberSilkAmbiguity
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:24 pm 
 

I have no further interest in continuing this debate. Thank you for your time. As far as the notice goes for the "off topic discussion", there are active moderates that are on cases as quick as possible. So it is not in your place, nor in your authority in saying.... Well, anything.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:56 am 
 

Nochielo wrote:
Sick6Six wrote:
As far as the Inquisition argument goes, their latest album "Ominous Doctrines of the blah blah..." is by far their best and the riffs are very unique and uncopied... If you like the riffs you gotta suffer through the vocals.

I refuse to believe such a thing, there must be a band that loves Inquisition and has a decent singer. If what you propose is indeed correct, then you have saved me a lot of time: Inquisition is dead to me.

Especially Ominous Doctrines seems a fairly unique combination of elements. You'll be hard pressed to find something that sounds the same apart from vocals.
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fucknicethings
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:32 pm 
 

I'm curious to know what National Socialism in black metal actually stands for, and how to tell if a band runs on these values. I assume it has something to do with neo-naziism, which I admittedly don't know much about. I think it has something to do with racism (which is imo the height of ignorance), hatred and intolerance and such. I was kind of taken off guard when I learned a band I've come to enjoy musically, Walknut, may be national socialist. Also bands like hate forest, satanic warmaster, goatmoon, sorcier des glace, nokturnal mortum, which are all bands I was curious about at some point, although I generally maintain absolutely no interest whatsoever for national socialist bands.
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Evangelion2014
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:57 pm 
 

So I like the production sound of super raw black metal bands, but I generally notice that a lot of these bands have very simple compositions with darkthrone type riffs. Does anyone know of some raw black metal bands that are a bit riffier? Also I suppose the minimalism is ok if the riffs are straight up awesome (S.V.E.S.T.'s 'urfast' uses very few riffs in long songs but I don't mind because they are simply amazing).

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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:30 pm 
 

Evangelion2014 wrote:
So I like the production sound of super raw black metal bands, but I generally notice that a lot of these bands have very simple compositions with darkthrone type riffs. Does anyone know of some raw black metal bands that are a bit riffier? Also I suppose the minimalism is ok if the riffs are straight up awesome (S.V.E.S.T.'s 'urfast' uses very few riffs in long songs but I don't mind because they are simply amazing).


Förgjord? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CaD3kivUGY
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Evangelion2014
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:21 am 
 

Sick6Six wrote:
Evangelion2014 wrote:
So I like the production sound of super raw black metal bands, but I generally notice that a lot of these bands have very simple compositions with darkthrone type riffs. Does anyone know of some raw black metal bands that are a bit riffier? Also I suppose the minimalism is ok if the riffs are straight up awesome (S.V.E.S.T.'s 'urfast' uses very few riffs in long songs but I don't mind because they are simply amazing).


Förgjord? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CaD3kivUGY


Pretty much exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for; thanks! Festering screeching and raw bm. Zwartplaag would be another example as well. Oh, before anyone mentions them I already know of Horna and Early behexen.

HellishHound wrote:
I'm so glad I'm not the only one can't get into Inquisition because of the vocals. It's the exact same reason why I refuse/can't listen to Immortal. Frog vocals just detract from black metal for me I need those shrieks man...those shrieks.


I actually like Immortal's vocals and I can't get into inquistion's vocals.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:51 am 
 

Sick6Six wrote:
Evangelion2014 wrote:
So I like the production sound of super raw black metal bands, but I generally notice that a lot of these bands have very simple compositions with darkthrone type riffs. Does anyone know of some raw black metal bands that are a bit riffier? Also I suppose the minimalism is ok if the riffs are straight up awesome (S.V.E.S.T.'s 'urfast' uses very few riffs in long songs but I don't mind because they are simply amazing).


Förgjord? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CaD3kivUGY

Great rec. Also Ljå and Vordr for anyone who's into Förgjord. You could also check out Cornigr, although they also go for that black atmosphere.

Beastcraft's Baptised in Blood and Goatsemen worships Under a Funeral Moon riffing to a nice extent, so if you're into that more hazy, intagible riffing style, there's raw black metal for you.
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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:16 pm 
 

Glad you like Forgjord, I think they are most excellent. I actually found out about them through the frontman of a German BM band who I talk to on FB sometimes. I ordered all of Forgjord's releases direct from the band :) I see you like Zwartplaag too, they are awesome, can't wait to hear another release from them.

Some other raw bands that come to mind, maybe not all as raw as Forgjord, but I think most of them fit the bill:

Graupel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_TBBE6S6I recommended by Ilwhyan awhile ago
Barshasketh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYBu74E9r9k great recommendation from the "Nobodies" thread. Ordered their 2 albums + shirt for super cheap direct on their FB
Zorn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koKN6vyyCwA Recommended by myself before, highly underrated and awesome band
Warwulf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJvMTzVMbZ0
Halla http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBpsmZlzwLs Also from the "Nobodies" thread, have not listened to them much yet, but they are pretty raw
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cultofkraken
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:08 am 
 

If you enjoy riffier and raw bm you should check out Bekhira's full length. French band with great songwriting.
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Sonic Atrocity
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:26 pm
Posts: 14
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:36 am 
 

I'm really picky with my black metal, and am often disappointed with some of the stuff that is worshiped by the scene. But I have found a particular kind of black metal that I really enjoy, but few artists that seem to do it well. I was hoping you guys could help me find more/better stuff!

I like really emotional, expressive, and sometimes even experimental stuff. Reflections of a Bleak Mind by Blutklinge, and Rain Upon the Impure and Unlock the Shrine by The Ruins of Beverast really do what I like well. Meanwhile, artists like Austere, Woods of Desolation, and Paysage D'hiver have really redeeming qualities (intuitive and expressive writing) but are really held back by awful production, bad musicianship and/or awful vocals.

Don't get me wrong! I respect these artists. I am just looking for artists who do what they do, but better. Could you help me out, fellow metallers? I'd really appreciate any suggestions you have.

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Evangelion2014
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:59 am
Posts: 434
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:31 am 
 

Sick6Six wrote:
Glad you like Forgjord, I think they are most excellent. I actually found out about them through the frontman of a German BM band who I talk to on FB sometimes. I ordered all of Forgjord's releases direct from the band :) I see you like Zwartplaag too, they are awesome, can't wait to hear another release from them.

Some other raw bands that come to mind, maybe not all as raw as Forgjord, but I think most of them fit the bill:

Graupel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL_TBBE6S6I recommended by Ilwhyan awhile ago
Barshasketh http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYBu74E9r9k great recommendation from the "Nobodies" thread. Ordered their 2 albums + shirt for super cheap direct on their FB
Zorn http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koKN6vyyCwA Recommended by myself before, highly underrated and awesome band
Warwulf http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJvMTzVMbZ0
Halla http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBpsmZlzwLs Also from the "Nobodies" thread, have not listened to them much yet, but they are pretty raw


Cool, will check these out.

cultofkraken wrote:
If you enjoy riffier and raw bm you should check out Bekhira's full length. French band with great songwriting.


Know about bekhira.

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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm
Posts: 3563
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:15 pm 
 

I'm late but there's nothing wrong with Inquisition's vocals you fools. Go see them live :P
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cultofkraken
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:18 am
Posts: 1211
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:35 pm 
 

Nahsil wrote:
I'm late but there's nothing wrong with Inquisition's vocals you fools. Go see them live :P


100% agreed.
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Evangelion2014
Metalhead

Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 2:59 am
Posts: 434
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:01 pm 
 

cultofkraken wrote:
Nahsil wrote:
I'm late but there's nothing wrong with Inquisition's vocals you fools. Go see them live :P


100% agreed.


I'm starting to get used to them. I already listen to immortal so it wasn't too much of a jump. And then there are the amazing riffs. The riffs...

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ImmortalBehemoth
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:24 am
Posts: 11
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:36 pm 
 

I just started listening to Inquisition. I am actually quite impressed. Thanks to the person that mentioned them. I am not really bothered by the vocals, although I was kinda taken aback the first time he opened his mouth. I am an Immortal fan, so I can't say that it was too much of a transition. There's too many good bands being recommended here, and not enough hours!

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ThePoop
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 8:38 pm
Posts: 438
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:29 am 
 

fucknicethings wrote:
I'm curious to know what National Socialism in black metal actually stands for, and how to tell if a band runs on these values. I assume it has something to do with neo-naziism, which I admittedly don't know much about. I think it has something to do with racism (which is imo the height of ignorance), hatred and intolerance and such. I was kind of taken off guard when I learned a band I've come to enjoy musically, Walknut, may be national socialist. Also bands like hate forest, satanic warmaster, goatmoon, sorcier des glace, nokturnal mortum, which are all bands I was curious about at some point, although I generally maintain absolutely no interest whatsoever for national socialist bands.

Basically NS bands have lyrics, themes and/or imagery that support Nazism. These could be about antisemitism, racism or any wide variety of right-wing topics. As far as Walknut goes, their members have ties to National Socialism with other projects, but as far as the concept of the band goes there's nothing overtly related to Nazism. It's up to you whether you can get over the unfortunate politics of certain bands or their members. A lot of good music has been made by people with rather ridiculous views of the world, but sometimes that's how it goes.

You'll find a good amount of people enjoy the names you listed and really can't stand or don't care about national socialism. I personally disagree with it and I pity any person who has such a warped and hateful view. But that doesn't mean I don't think Kroda, Fanisk and М8Л8ТХ have made some seriously kick-ass music.
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