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dust666
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:46 pm
Posts: 683
Location: Romania
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 1:51 pm 
 

Hybrid_Killer wrote:

What do you guys reckon are the best Moonspell, Type O Negative, Graveworm and Crematory albums to get started with?


Moonspell:
Memorial, Night Eternal, The Antidote
Crematory:
Illusions

I'm not familiar enough with the other 2 bands to give a normal opinion

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PocVecem1244
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:54 pm
Posts: 19
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 4:40 pm 
 

dust666 wrote:
Hybrid_Killer wrote:

What do you guys reckon are the best Moonspell, Type O Negative, Graveworm and Crematory albums to get started with?


Moonspell:
Memorial, Night Eternal, The Antidote
Crematory:
Illusions

I'm not familiar enough with the other 2 bands to give a normal opinion


The first three albums of Graveworm are very good specially As The Angels Reach The Beauty.

I also recomend Theatres des Vampires mid-era stuff ( The Vampire Chronicles, Bloody Lunatic Asylum, Suicide Vampire and Nightbreed Of Macabria)

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zervyx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:21 pm
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2009 10:15 pm 
 

BlindTortureKill wrote:
HellBlazer wrote:
zervyx wrote:
for me, true gothmetal is a metal version of goth-rock (Bauhaus, The Sisters of Mercy, Nosferatu) that kind of sound is like Type O Negative, Tenebre, The Bronx Casket Co, new Moonspell.


Thank you! I was shaking my head through most of the thread until this. I don't know who the fuck started labeling about anything with female vocals and/or lots of keyboards as gothic metal, but they need a good kick to the head.


Bull,
"real gothmetal" developed independantly from goth-rock starting with Paradise Lost and Theatre of Tragedy.


yeah, if it doesnt sound like gothrock and it developed independently from it, then I wonder why the gothic tag? it just aint gothic at all, and it has nothing to do with the bands that are an actual fussion of gothrock and metal.

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discouraged
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 105
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:06 am 
 

Hybrid_Killer wrote:
What do you guys reckon are the best Moonspell, Type O Negative, Graveworm and Crematory albums to get started with?


Moonspell: Memorial, Night Eternal, Wolfheart
Type O Negative: October Rust, World Coming Down, Dead Again
Graveworm: As the Angels Reach the Beauty, Scourge of Malice
Crematory: Revolution, Pray, Act Seven, Awake

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ScourgeOfDeath
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:35 am
Posts: 1083
Location: India
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:29 am 
 

discouraged wrote:
Hybrid_Killer wrote:
What do you guys reckon are the best Moonspell, Type O Negative, Graveworm and Crematory albums to get started with?


Moonspell: Memorial, Night Eternal, Wolfheart
Type O Negative: October Rust, World Coming Down, Dead Again
Graveworm: As the Angels Reach the Beauty, Scourge of Malice
Crematory: Revolution, Pray, Act Seven, Awake


Type O Negative's Bloody Kisses can also be added here...
Stay away from Life Is Killing Me though!!

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discouraged
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 4:46 am
Posts: 105
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:35 am 
 

ScourgeOfDeath wrote:
Type O Negative's Bloody Kisses can also be added here...
Stay away from Life Is Killing Me though!!


Oh wow, I missed it :S

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Melmoth_the_Wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 386
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:38 am 
 

zervyx wrote:
BlindTortureKill wrote:
HellBlazer wrote:
zervyx wrote:
for me, true gothmetal is a metal version of goth-rock (Bauhaus, The Sisters of Mercy, Nosferatu) that kind of sound is like Type O Negative, Tenebre, The Bronx Casket Co, new Moonspell.


Thank you! I was shaking my head through most of the thread until this. I don't know who the fuck started labeling about anything with female vocals and/or lots of keyboards as gothic metal, but they need a good kick to the head.


Bull,
"real gothmetal" developed independantly from goth-rock starting with Paradise Lost and Theatre of Tragedy.


yeah, if it doesnt sound like gothrock and it developed independently from it, then I wonder why the gothic tag? it just aint gothic at all, and it has nothing to do with the bands that are an actual fussion of gothrock and metal.


Why is gothic rock or goth called gothic then?

It must be something to do with the atmosphere; but then good luck defining what is gothic about a synth and a wail...

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BlindTortureKill
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1186
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:41 am 
 

zervyx wrote:
BlindTortureKill wrote:
HellBlazer wrote:
zervyx wrote:
for me, true gothmetal is a metal version of goth-rock (Bauhaus, The Sisters of Mercy, Nosferatu) that kind of sound is like Type O Negative, Tenebre, The Bronx Casket Co, new Moonspell.


Thank you! I was shaking my head through most of the thread until this. I don't know who the fuck started labeling about anything with female vocals and/or lots of keyboards as gothic metal, but they need a good kick to the head.


Bull,
"real gothmetal" developed independantly from goth-rock starting with Paradise Lost and Theatre of Tragedy.


yeah, if it doesnt sound like gothrock and it developed independently from it, then I wonder why the gothic tag? it just aint gothic at all, and it has nothing to do with the bands that are an actual fussion of gothrock and metal.


Goth rock isn't the only Gothic kind of music, it's much broader then that. something doesn't have to sound like gothrock to be gothic.

Just out of curiosity, what else would you call early Theatre of Tragedy?

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MacMoney
Man of the Cloth

Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2002 10:17 pm
Posts: 1951
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:46 am 
 

Hybrid_Killer wrote:
What do you guys reckon are the best Moonspell, Type O Negative, Graveworm and Crematory albums to get started with?


Well, I haven't heard Graveworm in eight or so years, but back then, they were a christian ripoff of Dimmu Borgir so I'd just stay the hell away.

EDIT: I'll have to admit that after a quick look through their albums of that era, it seems I was misinformed about their christianity. At least they seem to be rather anti-heaven. However, this doesn't reduce from the fact that they're a poor man's Dimmu Borgir with even more and even poorer keyboards. To add insult to injury, they were on Last Episode back then.

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Melmoth_the_Wanderer
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:10 pm
Posts: 386
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:55 am 
 

That's exactly what I thought (and still have my suspicions) about Anorexia Nervosa - very Christian looking lyrics (Redemption?)

Also, I like the darker gothic bands as well, and I've gotta say that draconian are the best if you are just getting into the genre - Gothic Doom of the highest quality, and it features female vox plus keyboards - so its still gothic for the idiots that think women are gothic.
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Sagebear
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:04 pm
Posts: 416
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:07 am 
 

BlindTortureKill wrote:
Just out of curiosity, what else would you call early Theatre of Tragedy?


Gothic metal, with a lot of death/doom elements on their first two albums.
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Andras13
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:09 pm
Posts: 116
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 12:09 pm 
 

Check out Distorted's, Memorial. Also look for Enchained Souls.

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american_pagan1
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 3:55 pm
Posts: 77
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 1:14 pm 
 

Nightwish's Tarja is construed as Goth metal. Not a fan myself, by damn is is fine!
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666_International
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:51 pm
Posts: 56
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 2:27 pm 
 

HellBlazer wrote:
Now, can anyone recommend me some good "true" gothic metal? Essentially, a metal version of The Sisters of Mercy would be awesome.

Moonspell - Irreligious
In the Woods... - Strange in Stereo

To quote AMG's Strange in Stereo review:
Quote:
Picture if you will the Sisters of Mercy if they could actually play, and decided to write some real songs, or the Fields of the Nephilim if they decided to open up their song structure a bit.

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Dettigers
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:18 pm
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 4:36 pm 
 

zervyx wrote:
well, for a long long time there's been a confussion about what's really gothic in metal.

for me, true gothmetal is a metal version of goth-rock (Bauhaus, The Sisters of Mercy, Nosferatu) that kind of sound is like Type O Negative, Tenebre, The Bronx Casket Co, new Moonspell.

However, in the Metal community some people started saying that "gothic" has more to do with Orchesta, Classical orientated keyboards and even Opera, which is not exactly a typical thing in oldschool Goth-Rock, for me that's nonsense; anyway, there's where bands like Cradle of Filth, Epica, old Paradise Lost, old Theatre of Tragedy, Graveworm, My Dying Bride enter... and of course they dont have that much in common with real gothmetal bands.


Gothic Metal does not even get the sound from Orchesta, Classical orientated keyboards. In fact a band like Epica is taking it cues from Prog, Melo Death, and Power. In fact most of the female fronted metal bands thrown under the Gothic sound are playing Symphonic metal and much of that genre was given birth do to Prog and Power metal bands adding in more and more orchesta and classical sound from there guitars to there keyboards.

Quote:
Nightwish's Tarja is construed as Goth metal. Not a fan myself, by damn is is fine!


And they would be wrong. Her music is not even really metal any more. Even when she was with Nightwish they were not gothic either. First three albums fall very much into the power metal side they just have the keyboards sound more cheesey. You then have CC, Once, and DPP that were more Symphonic Power Metal.

Again any one that calls a metal band with a lead female singer Gothic Metal has no clue as to what they are talking about.

Really sense most Symphonic metal bands have a lead female singer and for the most part it takes a lot of it's sound froms Prog and Power metal. You could say Symphonic metal is the female Power and Prog metal.

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zervyx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:21 pm
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:25 pm 
 

BlindTortureKill wrote:
zervyx wrote:
BlindTortureKill wrote:
HellBlazer wrote:
zervyx wrote:
for me, true gothmetal is a metal version of goth-rock (Bauhaus, The Sisters of Mercy, Nosferatu) that kind of sound is like Type O Negative, Tenebre, The Bronx Casket Co, new Moonspell.


Thank you! I was shaking my head through most of the thread until this. I don't know who the fuck started labeling about anything with female vocals and/or lots of keyboards as gothic metal, but they need a good kick to the head.


Bull,
"real gothmetal" developed independantly from goth-rock starting with Paradise Lost and Theatre of Tragedy.


yeah, if it doesnt sound like gothrock and it developed independently from it, then I wonder why the gothic tag? it just aint gothic at all, and it has nothing to do with the bands that are an actual fussion of gothrock and metal.


Goth rock isn't the only Gothic kind of music, it's much broader then that. something doesn't have to sound like gothrock to be gothic.


yeah it does, unless we are talkin about music that the actual northern barberian tribes did listen back in the Roman times, acording to the origin of the word "Goth". We also have to consider that Gothic Music does not necessarily mean "music that goths listen to".

However, in this matter I was talking about how in the metal scene the gothic tag has been mistakenly used to label orchesta, classical orientated keyboards, opera, classical string work, soprano singing, gregorian choir, elements that would fit more in the "Symphonic" area rather than gothic.

Most of these bands like old theatre of tragedy could have easily been considered as symphonic instead of gothic. I think its possible that the problem started with a confussion concerning other things labeled as Gothic, by example, Architecture. Some ignorant metalfan assumed: Gothic music = Music from the Gothic era (probably victorian gothic), when in fact those ages were consider gothic ONLY because of the kind of Architecture and Paintings not because of the music, the often kind of music from that time was Classical music and such, which was a normal thing back then and therefore has nothing to do with what the word "goth" actually means.

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Hellpuppet
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:22 pm
Posts: 57
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:03 pm 
 

You might want to check out some Dark Lunacy. they are gothic / melodic death metal..

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BlindTortureKill
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1186
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:44 pm 
 

I'll leave the quote pyramid out now.

I'm not suggesting gothic has anything to do with the german tribes, or anything classical-inspired or symphonic (music from the gothic era)
Those mistakes to label anything symphonic or classical inspired as gothic metal are often made though, on that I agree with you.

But then what does "Gothic" really mean? (in modern musical context)
And how does it translate only to Gothrock and Type O style Gothrock/metal fusions?

You're giving me the impression that gothic is a musical style, rather then an atmosphere/mood (which can apply to many different styles), but I don't see how that's true, because gothic rock barely has anything but moody atmosphere to distinguish itself from new-wave/post punk crowd.

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Dettigers
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:18 pm
Posts: 134
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:05 pm 
 

BlindTortureKill wrote:
I'll leave the quote pyramid out now.

I'm not suggesting gothic has anything to do with the german tribes, or anything classical-inspired or symphonic (music from the gothic era)
Those mistakes to label anything symphonic or classical inspired as gothic metal are often made though, on that I agree with you.

But then what does "Gothic" really mean? (in modern musical context)
And how does it translate only to Gothrock and Type O style Gothrock/metal fusions?

You're giving me the impression that gothic is a musical style, rather then an atmosphere/mood (which can apply to many different styles), but I don't see how that's true, because gothic rock barely has anything but moody atmosphere to distinguish itself from new-wave/post punk crowd.


Well it's a music style and a life style. To be honest about a good 90% of it is thrown under the Gothic metal tag is nothing to do with what Gothic music is or part of the life style.

You have the media to thank for that. To them any one that dresses in black most be GOTHIC.

Metalheads dress in black with band t-shirts
People who are part of Wicca for the most part dress in black
Emos dress in black
Those are just three exmaples. But almost any one that dresses in black most be GOTHIC to them.

So then the media hears for a exmaple a woman singer in metal and she dresses in black they think the band most be gothic. ;)

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KingVold
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 1082
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:08 am 
 

Karnstein_Records wrote:
KingVold wrote:
Karnstein_Records wrote:
KingVold wrote:
Karnstein_Records wrote:
There is no 'gothic metal' genre. There are just different bands from different genres that have gothic elements.


Explain?

Theres a pretty basic Goth metal scene and Goth metal sound, which is clearly distinguishable from Metal-bands with-gothic-rock-elements (Danzig, Celtic Frost).


Give me a description of gothic metal then please. Tell me how Lacuna Coil, Type O Negative and Cradle of Filth are of the same "genre" and not just unified by gothic elements.


Cradle of filth isn't pure Gothic. They are Gothic/symphonic/black metal. I wouldn't even call them Gothic metal really. There closer to commercial black metal.
I havent heard Lacuna Coil, so I cant say much about that, but from what i hear there a aprt of the alt/gothic metal movement i.e. H.I.M., the 69 Eyes, etc.


I would define Gothic metal as being a form of death/doom metal taking influence from Gothic Rock, with Gothic aesthetic emphasizing beauty ratehr than the brutal power few most metal.


So if a regular (80s-style) heavy metal, or a death metal band (non-doom) band has lots of gothic elements, they're not gothic metal? It only applies to doom-death bands?

What of Type O Negative?


Type O NEgative has lots of Death/Doom. have you heard Slow Deep and Hard?
No, I worded it wrong, sorry. I meant it came out of death doom. It doesnt necessarily have to be a death/doom band. Go pick up any H.I.M. album (Dont really -there not good). The elements of Death/doom are clearly visible in the riffing. Its not a direct influence from the bands who played this, but its filtewred down from genuine Goth Metal bands until it became the commercial alt-goth metal they play.
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AppleQueso wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
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Motion to change "Death Metal" to "EEURRRGHHH"

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zervyx
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2004 9:21 pm
Posts: 172
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 12:37 am 
 

BlindTortureKill wrote:
But then what does "Gothic" really mean? (in modern musical context)
And how does it translate only to Gothrock and Type O style Gothrock/metal fusions?

You're giving me the impression that gothic is a musical style, rather then an atmosphere/mood (which can apply to many different styles), but I don't see how that's true, because gothic rock barely has anything but moody atmosphere to distinguish itself from new-wave/post punk crowd.


goth-rock was an evolution of postpunk music, and therefore there's a similarity. In fact, some postpunk bands helped establishing the gothrock style and even the whole "movement/subculture/scene" (Joy Division, Siouxsie and the banshees, even the cure).

Now, to tell you the truth I agree that gothic music is about setting a moody atmosphere, but we cant forget that gothrock bands used certain elements to set that kind of atmosphere, at the end, those are elements of a music style. Pretty much all these bands share in sound the processed instruments; the overuse of delay and reverb in pretty much any instrument but particularly in the snare drum and vocals. The traditional tone of voice, which is quite low and deep, thanks to the sisters of mercy, when it comes to female singing they usually follow the siouxsie pattern. the guitarwork is very similar to postpunk. Here are some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1iioUueAq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VyWNDxQQxM

I would add that most oldschool gothrock bands changed style.

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BlindTortureKill
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:57 am
Posts: 1186
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 6:42 pm 
 

zervyx wrote:
Now, to tell you the truth I agree that gothic music is about setting a moody atmosphere, but we cant forget that gothrock bands used certain elements to set that kind of atmosphere, at the end, those are elements of a music style. Pretty much all these bands share in sound the processed instruments; the overuse of delay and reverb in pretty much any instrument but particularly in the snare drum and vocals. The traditional tone of voice, which is quite low and deep, thanks to the sisters of mercy, when it comes to female singing they usually follow the siouxsie pattern. the guitarwork is very similar to postpunk. Here are some examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1iioUueAq4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VyWNDxQQxM

I would add that most oldschool gothrock bands changed style.


I don't know what else to add, I already argued that the same mood can be created with different musical elements besides those you mentioned.

I mean, I don't find it a stretch to compare the gloomy atmosphere of those songs you gave as examples to this even though it technically sounds completely different.

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Kleitus666
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:01 pm
Posts: 11
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2009 10:51 pm 
 

Lake of Tears - Headstones or Forever Autumn
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Morrigan
Crone of War

Joined: Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 am
Posts: 9465
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 1:40 pm 
 

Hybrid_Killer wrote:
What do you guys reckon are the best Moonspell, Type O Negative, Graveworm and Crematory albums to get started with?

Graveworm is shit. The first two Moonspell albums, Wolfheart and Irreligious, are by far their best. As for Type O Negative, you can't go wrong with Bloody Kisses and Life Is Killing Me.

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