I don't understand people who 'only like 70s Priest' in 2014. What does it take for some of you people? Jesus tap dancing Christ. If we were at a party and I had a Priest mix playing in the background, when it went from 'Tyrant' to 'Jawbreaker' would you slam down your tea cup, turn up your nose and announce "ABSOLUTE DRIVEL, I SAY!" I would sincerely hope not.

If elements of AC/DC aggravate you then I don't know why one would even bother with rock or metal music. It's guts, balls, passion, anger....and yeah...SOMETIMES...it's gonna be catchy enough for more than just you to like it. You people imagine these artists crucifying themselves over writing more popular sounding songs. Oh what great magnum opus were we denied because Priest released Point of Entry? I'm pretty sure they were always gonna write and release Point of Entry.

I definitely wouldn't consider Fire Down Under or Battle Hymns to be USPM albums. Both are basically heavy metal with some hard rock in there too; "Battle Hymn" the song could maybe be considered USPM, but the rest of the album definitely isn't. I haven't heard any album from before 1983 that I'd consider to be primarily USPM. In '83 you've got a few things cropping up, like Queensryche's EP, Griffin's demo (has almost all the songs from the album), and Serpent's Knight's debut. Queensryche's EP was released in May, no idea when the other two came out, but those are the main 3 contenders as far as I'm concerned. '82 and possibly earlier had some individual songs like "Battle Hymn" and maaaaybe Manilla Road's "Cage of Mirrors" (the atmosphere at least), but as I've said I haven't heard any primarily USPM releases from that time (I guess the Battle Hymn single could be considered primarily USPM, but using a 2-song single is quite a stretch).

I find myself in the bizarre position of agreeing with Exigence - I really can't wrap my head around people digging 70s Priest, but then not enjoying Screaming for Vengeance and Defenders of the Faith. Sure it's easy to hate on Turbo and Point of Entry, but how could anyone not like "Sentinel" and "Electric Eye" and classic tracks like that? Apparently people even hate "Devil's Child" because it's "too AC/DC" or whatever - what the fuck? Do these people hate fun?

Who the fuck hates Devil's Child? Halford tears shit up all over the place in that tune.

Anyway, I would argue that 70's Priest is generally more developed and nuanced as far as songwriting goes (there are more than a few dashes of prog rock there), but yeah, Screaming and Defenders are just fun, loud records. They hit very different spots, that's all.

Take it easy there, Exigence.

I dont' think too many people would use a strong word like hate to describe anything but an album like Turbo. Priest has a lot of fun songs in the 80s, but they're just not as good as what came before. For a party mix, it's absolutely fine, but if I'm home and want to listen to good music, I'll be more likely to reach for the Sad Wings-Stained Class trilogy of albums. That's just the way it is. I feel the same about Scorpions and a few other bands. It's not that they started sucking the big one, it's rather that they lost the fire that made them great and groundbreaking and started producing more bland music, culminating in certain albums that really were just about awful all the way through. And criticising Priest for adopting too many AC/DC-isms is fair; I love that band but I love Priest for different reasons. If i wanted AC/DC, I would listen to let there be Rock, not Point of Entry.

I don't understand why you harp on about this, exigence; I'm pretty sure I've seen you do it in several topics now. It's pretty clear why some of us think this way. I don't think anybody expects Priest to make a Stained Class 2.0 in 2014, nor would that be a desireable kind of effort to make. Most people aren't complaining, just stating a perfectly understandable preference. Where we might have the right to bitch somewhat is that Priest seldom rises to the challenge of playing many of these songs on stage today, but there are a few reasons for that: halford's reduced vocal ability, kK no longer being in the band, a lot of the audience being far from the "hardcore Priest fan archetype" and always expecting to hear 'Livin' After Midnight", etc.

I agree with Exigence here. It's weird that some fans will point to 1979 as a cut off point with regard to the end of Priest's good material. But then again, there are weirdos who like classic heavy metal and yet they don't like hard rock. Obviously, Sad Wings... and Stained Class are the two best Priest albums. But British Steel, Screaming for Vengeance and Defenders of the Faith are great fun and, in all actuality, important albums for metal's development. Not as great as the 1970s stuff, not as deep as the 1970s stuff, but damn good for what they are. I mean, if you don't love 'Green Manalishi...', 'Deliverin' the Goods', 'Desert Plains', 'The Sentinel', 'Rapid Fire', 'The Rage', 'Electric Eye' etc, etc then what kind of metal fan are you?

Okay, 'Breaking the Law' and 'Livin' After Midnight' are boring and there's some crap anthems there like 'United' but there's a wealth of good material from Killing Machine to Defenders....

Well there it is, you've hit on the reason exactly. That's an awful lot of "not as good as", which is apparently the material that made the band popular with the classic rock radio loving crowd. I myself am not offended by 80s Priest but I would never listen to it over my favourite albums. It always seems a shame when a band dumbs itself down a bit and you've admitted as much yourself with regards to Priest.

And the legacy of a band has as much to do with how material from different eras is viewed as does the sound itself. I can listen to British Steel even and go "uh huh, that's pretty fun", but there's no way i'm getting away from the thought that this is the same band that recorded "Saints in hell", "Beyond the Realms of Death", and 'Tyrant" a mere few years earlier. From there comes a somewhat disappointed feeling because you know these guys are capable of better, they just choose not to go there. I also think Blackout is a cool album but when I think this band also gave us "Sails of Charon", "Dark lady", "Fly to the Rainbow", and so on, it just seems less pleasing. To pull out a more extreme example, I even think Load contains some good rock songs, but when I think of "Ride the Lightning", just being "good" doesn't really satisfy in the same way.

Oh man. I like 80's Scorpions, but with Uli they're just on another level.

Honestly I like Screaming for Vengeance and parts of Defenders of the Faith as much as any of Priest's 70s stuff, albeit for different reasons. Yeah on the whole the songs are somewhat simpler and less "artsy", but so what? "The Sentinel" is one of the very best songs they ever wrote, 'nuff said. It's also a fact that the production on some of those 70s studio albums is a bit...wimpy. The songs sound much much better on live recordings from that era (Unleashed in the East, etc.).

Sad Wings could definitely have sounded fuller, even at the time, but I wouldn't complain about the sound on any of the other 70s records, even Rocka Rolla, which doesn't really call for a heavier sound except maybe on a couple of tracks. Ain't nothing at all wrong with the way Stained Class sounds, and as good as it is, the Unleashed in the east setlist isn't as thrilling as it could be.

Priest's three albums preceding Killing Machine were certainly more unique and contained some brilliant moments which stand out from the style the band later defined. Stained Class is a fuller album than Defenders on account of having Beyond the Realms of Death rather than Night Comes Down and Heavy Duty, but that album was more than half full of incredible heavy metal. I think what gets to some people is that starting with Killing Machine, we've heard a thousand different takes on that album, ten thousand different takes on Screaming for Vengeance, and while Priest perfected those takes on what they did from KM and later is heard in basically every metal band ever. I can't find any objection to a mix of Priest stuff though. The inconsistency of their 80s material was more apparent with the definitive and non-definitive songs, and that's because their greatest songs are simply the greatest.



I think they also developed that style a bit more into what made it so pronounced and distinctive during their earlier years. The band solidified the power and passion in their delivery of songs from the mid to late 70s. Production is one aspect, but the guitarists shifted to deliver the riffs more aggresively, and Halford stepped up the sheer intensity of his delivery in the years between Sad Wings and Unleashed. The same increased intensity carried over to the strongest songs they made later, which required the band to really increase the overt dynamics of songwriting and write songs like the second half of Defenders.

Exigence is right except for the fact that nobody has actually said they hated everything else but 70s Priest in this conversation. I think most people like Screaming for Vengeance and Defenders just fine. Now when you get to Painkiller and beyond, well yeah, some people don't think that stuff is up to scratch - me included.

"Devil's Child" is the best song on Screaming, by the way - which isn't a small feat.

My beef is when people mark down the 70s albums because of the supposedly wimpy production. I dunno, it's never bothered me. Just part of the experience, i.e. bluesy, proggy rock with unique twists and turns.

I never understood that, either. I always marked the production of the 70s albums as being, well, a result of being made in the 70s, so complaining about it would be silly.

Some of those tunes like "Exciter and "The Ripper" probably sounded better faster and heavier, but I think they sounded fine on the albums too, never bothered me that bands that came later made heavier and faster shit.

"Stained Class" had a horrible, weak guitar tone, even by 70s standards. The material was of course excellent however.

That's astonishing to me. Maybe my version is remastered but I can't imagine it made that much difference? I think Stained Class might be my favorite guitar tone of all time.

Stained Class is awesome in every way, and you will listen to it, and you will like it. ;n;

And what about Savatage - Sirens?

As far as I'm concerned, Sirens is a straight heavy metal album. I really don't hear any PM in there at all.

Only after I started listening to the new Jaguar album did I realize they no longer have their original vocalist. This dude can't conjure a catchy vocal line to save his life, either. Heartbreak.

Yeah he really doesnt sound that great

The band as a whole doesn't sound all that good there.

What to you musically is the distinction between the two?

Yeah I love how they're trying to continue the same dirty speed metal style, but their current vocalist is balls. Sounds like a punk vocalist, when they need a more tuneful (though still aggressive) style.

Ok, so as far as I know, "the big 3" of 80s German power metal are Helloween, Running Wild, and Rage, is that correct? I'm quite familiar with Helloween, and I love Keeper 1. However, I have very little experience with Running Wild, and literally no experience with Rage. So:

a) What are the best albums to start with for Running Wild and Rage? Try to narrow it down to one album per band please.
b) If different from above, what, if any, are the most Keepers era Helloween like ones from Running Wild and Rage? Again, please try to keep it to one album per band.

The only Running Wild album that I care much for is the debut, but it's fairly different from Kiske-Helloween. Really, I don't think any Running Wild is similar to Kiske-Helloween.

The 1988-1998 period is where it's at. Heavy / power supremacy. Not a bad album among them, so it's really your pick. Death or Glory, Blazon Stone, or Black Hand Inn are the usual first drops. Personally, I started with Under Jolly Roger which is grittier than the stuff afterward. Then I hit Port Royal. Timeless.

Any list without Blind Guardian in is incorrect, that much I can say.

I'd have thought Grave Digger would be mentioned in that kind of grouping too. What do I know.
Running Wild are definitely big of course.

...Never actually heard of Rage however, so they can't be that big!
(Rectifying that now, though.)

I was under the impression that Blind Guardian switched to power metal in the 90s from speed metal in the 80s. Don't know about Grave Digger. But I'm far from an expert, so you don't have to listen to me.

P.S. feel free to recommend me any essential and/or Helloween like Blind Guardian and Grave Digger albums as well.

No, that is not correct. There is no "big 3 of German power metal". Those three bands have very little in common, apart from them being German, and long running.

If there were a "big 3 of German power metal" it would be Helloween, Scanner and Chroming Rose, I guess.

A good starting point for Rage is Perfect Man. After that, just move forward. There are no bad Rage albums.


What...? you...? what...?

Hm, I'd never heard of Chroming Rose before, and after having looked at their MA profile, I think you're having a little fun with me. I have no idea where I heard "the big 3 of 80s German power metal" thing.

Thanks for the Rage rec.

Chroming Rose didn't release anything in the 1980s, dammit!

For Rage try Black in Mind first. More comprehensive of their sound.

Not a fan of Helloween, but for Grave Digger I'd go for Tunes of War and Rheingold, as those are the ones that have stuck with me the most.

As for Blind Guardian, I like every album they've done to some extent, but try Somewhere Far Beyond for a speed/power journey into awesomeness, and A Night at the Opera for some OTT pompous progginess (better than that description sounds, imo). A lot of people don't like the latter so if you find yourself enjoying SFB a lot more then go for the albums before and after it, Tales from the Twilight World and Imaginations from the Other Side. Also their first live album, Tokyo Tales, is incredible, with most of the songs sounding better than they did in the studio.


Listening to Sirens again now to try to better answer this question since I haven't heard it in awhile. To be fair, with it on now, it definitely has some PM in there, although I'd still consider it primarily HM. PM, especially USPM, is definitely something that's difficult to put into words because it has a lot to do with atmosphere. I find that, for the most part, its riffs tend to give me more of an 'epic' feeling in the sense of a grander, often more ambitious, and often 'warmer' atmosphere. Obviously this is quite subjective. I also find that PM tends to (but doesn't always) focus more on harmony between riffs and leads than does straight HM. I guess that's really the only objective quality I could give to it exclusively, although obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Brocas Helm, for example, and some other epic heavy metal bands, fit most of my criteria for USPM (they do sort of straddle the line to my ears, but I probably wouldn't call them PM). I don't know how much this helps you understand my 'philosophy' of PM/USPM, but hopefully it gives you a little insight. 'Sirens' in particular for the most part doesn't sound 'grand,' 'warm,' or 'harmonious' enough to me, but others are welcome to call it USPM as it's not an exact science. I just don't hear it.

Where does one start with Tokyo Blade?

Their s/t debut and Night of the Blade are their essential NWOBHM albums (the album labelled "Midnight Rendezvous" on their page is just their debut with some different tracks), though the latter starts to get a little commercial and over it I would recommend (the first ten tracks of) "Night of the Blade...the Night Before" which is essentially the album they were originally going to release with their original vocalist and a meatier production (and better tracklist). From there they then further follow the path of commercialistion until 1995, though I remember No Remorse having some surprising, almost power metal, moments on it, despite the weird vocalist.

Their latest (Thousand Men Strong) also sounds like a pretty well-executed comeback album from what I'm hearing on Youtube (the two between No Remorse and this are somewhat alternative influenced).

When you hear the most kinetic, earth-shaking songs off Ample Destruction, Liege Lord's Master Control or Savatage's Hall of the Mountain King, you definitely go 'yeah, that sounds like POWER metal.' But really, so much of the distinction between USPM and straight heavy metal is pretty nebulous. Maybe I just don't care about genre distinctions much, but I use those terms interchangeably for most of the really good US metal albums from '84 to '90 or so. It's like, sure, Omen's Battle Cry is a power metal album. But is it really a stretch to say it's a traditional metal album instead, in some totally different conversation? I don't think it is.

teh_Foxx0rz: Thanks man, I'll check those out. Tokyo Blade were always a name which have a high recall-ability when it comes to tier-2 bands from that NWOBHM era. The name just stands out, I just never bothered to check them out.

This just in: Into the Coven was originally called Love Criminals and it's fucking glorious.

Non-obvious recommendations for bands like Metal Church besides Artch and Defender?