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Deaderthebetter
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:14 pm
Posts: 50
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:02 am 
 

Helloween probably as others have said, bands like Fate's Warning weren't too much later, and Judas Priest, while not a power band, has got to come to mind as a band that helped develop the sound at any rate.

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VirginSteele_Helstar
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:26 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:01 am 
 

I've heard Kai Hansen speak of how Accept and the Scorpions played a huge role in what became German power metal and a band like Accept who were clearly influenced by Judas Priest simply made a more German sounding form of heavy metal from which Helloween, Grave Digger and Running Wild to list a few drew their fire from. So I think power metal in Europe (before it became overblown) drew largely from Judas Priest and Iron Maiden and the bands that followed immediately in their wake like Accept.

Rainbow is mentioned so much but I think the lyrical aspect (of Dio's) is what most bands picked up on since the only Euro band that sounds like Rainbow to me is Axel Rudi Pell.

When I think "USPM" I think of bands like Helstar, Omen, Crimson Glory, earliest Queensryche, Liege Lord, Attacker, early Fates Warning and so on. To me, bands like Manowar, Riot, Savatage, Virgin Steele, Manilla Road and Jag Panzer are more directly heavy metal than power metal.
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Lord of Bair
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Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:46 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:01 am 
 

Rainbow - Stargazer for me. Nailed everything about power metal like 10 years before anyone else was even hinting at the same type of sound.

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Expedience
Veteran

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
Posts: 3610
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 2:48 pm 
 

Vitross wrote:
The first proper power metal album would be Helloween "Keeper of the Seven Keys, Part I". Their debut album and their EP before that weren't really power metal as we know it, but a kind of speedy/heavy metal.


I don't see why Walls of Jericho would be dismissed as a starting point in favor of Keeper I. It's much more melodic, more major-key and less bluesy than pretty much all speed/heavy that came before it. What do the Keeper albums have that Walls doesn't?

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Turner
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Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:52 pm 
 

walls of jericho doesn't have the poppy upbeatness and "happiness" that the keeper albums did, and power metal is known for. the difference in attitude between those albums has always been obvious, i thought.

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Opus
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
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Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:11 pm 
 

Expedience wrote:
Walls of Jericho ... more major-key

Help me out here, I haven't listened to WoJ in a long time, what songs would that be?
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metroplex
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Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:28 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 5:43 pm 
 

I always considered "Guardians" off of WoJ as the first of the now called Euro-Power songs.

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Expedience
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Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:22 am
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:07 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Expedience wrote:
Walls of Jericho ... more major-key

Help me out here, I haven't listened to WoJ in a long time, what songs would that be?


All of them. It's true it's not quite as happy as KotSK but few metal albums are. If WoJ isn't happy enough to be PM then neither is Gamma Ray, Hibria, Kamelot, Nightwish.

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:27 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
We see the same things but come from different perspectives. Of course European power metal is different from wwhat people refer to as "USPM". That's because "USPM" is basically heavy metal. That's what it was called back then and that was good enough.

I'm extremely happy lumping Accept, Virgin Steele, Mercyful Fate, Judas Priest and Crimson Glory all together as good old heavy metal, no matter if some of them employ different vocal styles or borrow epic or progressive elements.


Between you and me, that's fine, but since the 80s, the term "heavy metal" has been misused and morphed so it's a really vague and broad term in general use - it's not uncommon for someone to think of "heavy metal like Judas Priest" as including everything from AC/DC to Metallica, or to include all sorts of bands from Aerosmith to Five Finger Death Punch as being "heavy metal bands". It's much easier to refer to all sorts of heavy/power/speed/thrash that tends to not be polished and popped-up under the USPM umbrella, it's a concept that people can grasp pretty quickly if they are at least somewhat familiar with what it refers to.

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Deaderthebetter
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:14 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:05 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Riffs wrote:
We see the same things but come from different perspectives. Of course European power metal is different from wwhat people refer to as "USPM". That's because "USPM" is basically heavy metal. That's what it was called back then and that was good enough.

I'm extremely happy lumping Accept, Virgin Steele, Mercyful Fate, Judas Priest and Crimson Glory all together as good old heavy metal, no matter if some of them employ different vocal styles or borrow epic or progressive elements.


Between you and me, that's fine, but since the 80s, the term "heavy metal" has been misused and morphed so it's a really vague and broad term in general use - it's not uncommon for someone to think of "heavy metal like Judas Priest" as including everything from AC/DC to Metallica, or to include all sorts of bands from Aerosmith to Five Finger Death Punch as being "heavy metal bands". It's much easier to refer to all sorts of heavy/power/speed/thrash that tends to not be polished and popped-up under the USPM umbrella, it's a concept that people can grasp pretty quickly if they are at least somewhat familiar with what it refers to.


There will always be people who categorize the harder edge of hard rock like AC/DC or Aerosmith as traditional heavy metal, though we both disagree with that. I agree with you that say anything with a noticeably "softer edge" (not the term I'm looking for but it has to do with composition and heaviness) than say Accept or parts of Turbo doesn't seem to fit the genre, but as long as metal's around there will always be miscategorizations and different viewpoints, which thankfully don't make it onto this site much since we all know our metal.

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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:56 am 
 

Walls of Jericho - Helloween (1985) (LP)
I think the 4th track track 'Guardians' sounds pretty much Power Metal to me. But then, it's a matter of opinion.

Give it a listen again.

~~~
Oh boy, listening to it again, really, it's Power Metal.
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:18 pm 
 

This thread is losing me, and I'm surprised it's not losing more people, to be honest. There are at least three (maybe more) seemingly irreconcilable understandings of the metal realm showcased here, like oil, water and vinegar, and no middle ground seems to emerge.

1/ Power metal as post-Keepers EuroPM (And "USPM" as just a fancy term for traditional heavy metal)

As seen early on in the thread and confirmed since, notably by Riffs. 'Ample Destruction', 'Battle Cry', 'Remnants of War' or, for that matter, the 'Helloween' mini-LP, are nothing more than "heavy metal" albums or maybe heavy/speed. In this reality, power metal started with the first Keeper in 1987, and 'Legacy of Kings' is still power metal, but 'Mechanized Warfare' is probably just good old heavy metal.

2/ Power metal as the particular area of the metal realm at the crossroads of heavy, speed, thrash and prog

This is the reality I hail from, in which heavy metal bands developing their melodic, intricate and punchy sides consistently far beyond what one could find profusely on traditional heavy albums become something else, warranting the use of a sub-genre tag: power metal. The border of the line is right in the middle of Maiden territory, in this reality, as in we may still call Maiden just "heavy metal", but other bands consistently offering stuff as power-y as "The Trooper" or "Aces High" is likely power metal instead. Liege Lord's output does bear many resemblances to classic-era Judas Priest's or, say, Dio's, sure, but it's also consistently different enough as to no longer be in the same category: it's speed-ified heavy metal, heavy metal on overdrive, and thus, power metal. The Keepers mark the big bang not for power metal as a whole, but just for its more melodic, softer, heavy on the Santa Chorus Syndrome offshoot: EuroPM, or Helloclonism, if you will.

3/ Power metal as just the stuff with Santa Chorus Syndrome (And more generally, happy happy songs)

As seen in a recent series of posts focusing on Weikath's "Guardians", which does have a massive, bulging Santa Chorus Syndrome, and is arguably one of the earliest power metal songs with this specific format (Maiden's "Invaders" and others paved the way, but this one was certainly very influential). However, in this reality, SCS apparently is power metal, rather than just a particular (and particularly frustrating) format for power metal songs. So, for instance, other power metal songs such as "Phantoms of Death" or "Heavy Metal is the law", on the same album, do not count as power metal, for lack of a Santa Chorus, and despite all their other qualities which count as power metal in other realities. Moving a few years forward, and let's consider HammerFall's debut (bar the two sappy ballads and the Warlord cover, which don't count in any reality): well, in this particular reality, this is not a power metal album, as it only has one power metal song: "The Dragon Lies Bleeding"; all five of the other songs which aren't a ballad or a cover version fail to qualify as "power metal" by this reality's standards, for lack of a SCS.

Well, reality #1 I'm used to, it fairly often collides with my own, but reality #3 is a brand-new thing in my experience. It's like reality #1 in an alternate future where the "PM is EuroPM" logic was pushed to such extremes that EuroPM's major flaw became its quintessential trait. It's fucking scary, not to mention insane, if you ask me.

VirginSteele_Helstar wrote:
So I think power metal in Europe (before it became overblown) drew largely from Judas Priest and Iron Maiden and the bands that followed immediately in their wake like Accept.

Accept predates Maiden and was influential to speed and power metal on its merits, and those of Priest, the one of its two main influences that wasn't AC/DC and did inspire many a power metal band indeed.

VirginSteele_Helstar wrote:
Rainbow is mentioned so much but I think the lyrical aspect (of Dio's) is what most bands picked up on since the only Euro band that sounds like Rainbow to me is Axel Rudi Pell.

Dio's lyricism and some of the imagery played a role, yes, but Rainbow's influence on power metal is first and foremost a musical one, believe me. Songs like "A Light in the Black", "Stargazer", and obviously "Kill the King" are essentially pure power metal songs at their core, only distinguishable from full-blown power metal by the 70s guitar tone and production quality.

VirginSteele_Helstar wrote:
When I think "USPM" I think of bands like Helstar, Omen, Crimson Glory, earliest Queensryche, Liege Lord, Attacker, early Fates Warning and so on. To me, bands like Manowar, Riot, Savatage, Virgin Steele, Manilla Road and Jag Panzer are more directly heavy metal than power metal.

So this is USPM, but that is simply heavy metal? (I 'd say the former is power/speed with sprinkles of technical thrash, whereas the latter is strictly power metal, US or otherwise).

Ferturi wrote:
Would the american band Legend count as power metal? (of the "USPM" kind, obviously); it sounds to me similar to the style of Manilla Road; if so, it'd be the first band properly in the genre I guess, since their only album was released in '79.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_JWcHIIGyI

Not one bit. Legend sounds close to Manilla Road, sure, early Manilla Road, aka prog rock/metal Manilla Road, not post-Manowar Manilla Road circa 'Crystal Logic' through 'The Deluge', which is the part of MR's discography that can arguably be considered (partially made of) power metal. Legend is prog rock meets hard/heavy.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:00 pm 
 

To me USPM is what you get when you distill heavy metal. Heavy metal with most outside influences removed and then put additional emphasis on these elements.
Just compare the difference in sound from an average nwobhm record with say Jag Panzer. The riffs are a lot less rockin, the riffs are more "busy". It is pretty much all round heavier.

Also i consider Crystal Logic to be the only heavy metal album done by MR. The stuff before is prog rock/metal and the stuff after is basically epic power metal to epic power/thrash.

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metroplex
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:20 pm 
 

LegendMaker wrote:


3/ Power metal as just the stuff with Santa Chorus Syndrome (And more generally, happy happy songs)

As seen in a recent series of posts focusing on Weikath's "Guardians", which does have a massive, bulging Santa Chorus Syndrome, and is arguably one of the earliest power metal songs with this specific format (Maiden's "Invaders" and others paved the way, but this one was certainly very influential). However, in this reality, SCS apparently is power metal, rather than just a particular (and particularly frustrating) format for power metal songs. So, for instance, other power metal songs such as "Phantoms of Death" or "Heavy Metal is the law", on the same album, do not count as power metal, for lack of a Santa Chorus, and despite all their other qualities which count as power metal in other realities. Moving a few years forward, and let's consider HammerFall's debut (bar the two sappy ballads and the Warlord cover, which don't count in any reality): well, in this particular reality, this is not a power metal album, as it only has one power metal song: "The Dragon Lies Bleeding"; all five of the other songs which aren't a ballad or a cover version fail to qualify as "power metal" by this reality's standards, for lack of a SCS.



Well you got it wrong. When me and the other guy mentioned "Guardians" as the first Power Metal song, we were talking about the EuroPM. We fall in the 1/ category. Now that santa chorus whatever IS what defines EuroPM. BUT, like you said, not every EuroPM album is filled with this kind of songs.

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kalervon
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:32 pm 
 

In 1985, Voivod and a hard rock band with metal elements called D.D.T. were playing a show together. The flyers had "Heavy metal" under D.D.T. and "Power metal" under Voivod. In the context, power metal meant "faster than what you come to expect as metal". I wonder if it was just a local thing, I don't think it lasted very long either.

I think the first proto power metal song is Burn by Deep Purple (someone else mentioned it). The organ solo, followed by a chorus, then by a guitar solo (JL/RB..). The high pitched power chorus (Hughes/Coverdale). Sure, itself, Burn borrowed from Highway Star, but the organ sound is more "church-like" on Burn, the classical influences in the solos, and the song lyrics are inspired by the "burning" times (ominous, classical or baroque theme).

Burn didn't start power metal right away, but its creator went on to form Rainbow and we know the rest. And on the Burn album, other songs sound bluesy, hard rockish, and have nothing to do with metal either. It was more of a spark that caught on very slowly.

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Yayattasa
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Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:56 am 
 

metroplex wrote:
Well you got it wrong. When me and the other guy mentioned "Guardians" as the first Power Metal song, we were talking about the EuroPM. We fall in the 1/ category. Now that santa chorus whatever IS what defines EuroPM. BUT, like you said, not every EuroPM album is filled with this kind of songs.


I thought more or less the same.

Also, perceive I did not say Guardians is the monolith of EuroPM or it was the first PM track ever.

My idea with my post was to start to date the things. I suppose everybody agree in Guardians being a PM track (EuroPM, whatever, it's still Power Metal). Then, I thought someone could come and say: Song Y by band X, from 198x is also PM, and it was released earlier than Walls of Jericho.
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Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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kalervon
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:32 pm 
 

To show how quick labels and terms change, "Metal Invaders" by Helloween, which features on Wall of Jericho, was once featured on a compilation/split called Death Metal. Hellhammer were on the same split though..

This is the flyer with Voivod on it which I was thinking about (my memory tricked me, I could swear it was from a show with DDT but, not):
Spoiler: show
Image
It's from 1985. Nasty Savage are labelled black metal; Possessed and Destruction speed metal while Celtic Frost are labelled death metal.

Extract from a 1985 interview:
http://www.voivod.net/1985/07/31/1985-interview-by-glenn-salter-for-metallic-assault-fanzine/ wrote:
Do you consider VOIVOD a black metal band or a power metal band?
PIGGY: I consider VOIVOD as a power metal band. Black metal want to tell you about Satanism and VOIVOD is not a satanic concept, but a lot of people said that we are black metal. Probably cause the Snake’s vocals is mostly compared with VENOM and also the guitar harmonies in minor mode.

1987:
http://www.voivod.net/1986/08/01/1986-metal-mania-magazine-interview/ wrote:
What would you call it?
Away: I don’t really have a word for what we’re playing except for ‘power metal,’ but some people call us ‘nuclear metal,’ which I also consider an appropriate term. We really don’t care about what we’re called, as long as they don’t call us ‘black metal.’ We’re not into Satan.

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Muthafuca
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 10:55 am
Posts: 33
Location: Slovenia
PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:06 am 
 

Metallic Shock wrote:
ENKC wrote:
That may be one of the defining speed metal songs of all time, and a massive influence on thrash, but what on earth is "power metal" about it?

Maybe the fact that the drum beat and tempo is nearly the same as a lot of power metal? The chugging at a fast tempo but not quite a thrash tempo is pretty power metal too but more than that, the sing along chorus and the harmonized lead put on top of that tempo sound VERY power metal. I've always thought of it as one of the first power metal songs really.


This (about Fast as a Shark). And then you can ask yourself a question what is NOT so power metal about it. Only vocals maybe...
I believe Helloween's Keeper albums are the origin of what we call power metal nowadays (ignoring all the USPM stuff). And in many interviews from that era, Weikath and Hansen stated that the main influence for those two was album Powerslave with two very power metalish songs in Aces High and Flash of the Blade, not to mention Sun and Steel from previous one, Piece of Mind. And the Rime ... was certainly the role model for both Halloween and The Keeper of the Seven Keys epics.

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:31 am 
 

Of course genre labels were all over the place and, in retrospect, often hilariously wrong in the 80s, especially the first half (not to mention the 70s, during which AC/DC was sometimes billed as "punk", and anything with loud guitars (for the time) and an attitude could interchangeably be referred to as "hard rock" or "heavy metal"). We all know that. I thought we were having a historian approach, labelling things in retrospect based on current knowledge and agreed classification.

In my experience EuroPM, more specifically Helloween and any band close to it, was consistently referred to as "melodic speed metal" for about a decade, in metal magazines and in the metal community at large, from the mid-to-late 80s to at least the mid-90s. I have dozens upon dozens of mags from this era where any then-new release that we nowadays agree is (mostly) power metal was called melodic speed instead, from Scanner to Running Wild to Gamma Ray to Helstar to Crimson Glory (admittedly, along with other releases that, in retrospect, have nothing to do with power metal, like the speedy thrash of Hallow's Eve's 'Monument', but hey! beats calling Nasty Savage black metal lol). Overall, I must add, metal mag reviews in this era were insanely consistent and honest compared to the farce they became around the late 90s/early 00s, as they weren't quite as corrupt and owned by record labels at the time.

The term "power metal" did not appear with the Keepers, and it only really caught on and was retroactively applied to a host of 80s and 90s bands around the mid-to-late 90s, although it was then competing with the thankfully short-lived, but then ridiculously popular and trendy term "true metal". I have "True Metal" compilations from this era featuring Helloween, Manowar, HammerFall, Holy Moses, Jag Panzer, Judas Priest, Symphony X, Iced Earth... you name it. I suppose it was an attempt to distinguish heavy/power/speed/prog bands or, as was also often said at the time, bands playing "80s metal", from both the blackalbumized, MTV-friendly groove bands and the "extreme metal" bands of the time, eg black and/or death. By the early 00s, when the smoke settled after this genre-labelling turmoil, both "true metal" and "melodic speed metal" went to oblivion, and "power metal" became the new, widely accepted term for both the booming generation of Keepers-inspired bands and the many bands who played any kind of heavy metal that was punchier than traditional heavy, and infused with speed, thrash and/or prog. As for the niche term USPM itself, I never encountered it before joining MA, in 2010, although it does make sense to me.

Now, going back to discussing the music itself, here's evidence of music that can only objectively be described as power metal by today's standards (even more specifically EuroPM), which was released as early as 1983 (before, not just both Keepers, but Helloween's entire career, as well as both Maiden albums Muthafucka says Hansen & Weikath cited as their primary influence for the Keepers' style).

Meet "a few" of the songs from Europe's debut, released in March 1983:
"In the Future to Come"
"Seven Doors Hotel"
"Paradize Bay"
"Memories"
"Children of this Time"
"Boyazont"

These have every single hallmarks of the EuroPM genre, save for the double-bass drumming and, arguably, the Santa Chorus Syndrome. And it doesn't stop there, as the three out of nine songs that I haven't linked to include a sappy ballad that would by no means be out of place on a Helloween album, and two mid-paced upbeat rockers with loads of twin-harmony guitar parts by no means far removed from the ever-popular "Out in the Fields"/"I Want Out" EuroPM formula.

So, there you have it. EuroPM began no later than in early 1983, with Europe's power metal debut.

Your turn, MA. :D
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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:05 am 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
So, there you have it. EuroPM began no later than in early 1983, with Europe's power metal debut.

Your turn, MA. :D


I think you nailed it. Now we need to debunk Europe for the future generations sake! haha

Can't think about anything earlier than that right now...
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Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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metroplex
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:23 pm 
 

Now the i remember, the first time i listened to an EuroPM song, the first thing that crossed my mind was 'man this sounds so much like Europe'.

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Punishing
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 am 
 

Yes, Europe should be added on the Archives!
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Woolie_Wool
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:23 am 
 

"In the Future to Come" sounds like what would happen if you took a Majesty-era Dream Theater song and exercised all the prog rock and speed metal elements, right down to the singer sounding kind of like Charlie Dominici.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:15 pm 
 

Does anyone know what month Pokolgep's Pokoli színjáték was released? It came out in '87 with a very high power metal content for its year. I'd be interested to know exactly when it was released, to be honest.
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:40 pm 
 

LegendMaker wrote:
So, there you have it. EuroPM began no later than in early 1983, with Europe's power metal debut.

Well duh. Did you think it was called Euro Power after the continent?

Anyway a lot of the posts in this thread are pretty ridiculous, especially the people claiming USPM isn't actually power metal. It's not a matter for argument - there are plenty of USPM bands around today, people call them power metal and they call themselves power metal. It might not fit your personal opinion of what people should use the term for, but it's a done deal. The 'USPM' tag is just something people made up to differentiate bands of that style from the Euro Power bands, which tend to attract a different set of fans.
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The Animator
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:18 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
LegendMaker wrote:
So, there you have it. EuroPM began no later than in early 1983, with Europe's power metal debut.

Well duh. Did you think it was called Euro Power after the continent?


Yes I did, I dont recall ever hearing the first Europe album before but I'm surprised it isn't listed in the archive.

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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:26 pm 
 

Well, Europe's inclusion on MA has been suggested and discussed several times over the years, including by yours truly, but it was consistently rejected. It's even on an old "Rejected Bands List", and if I understood correctly, it's been blacklisted as AOR by one of the admins (Morrigan, I think?). So that's likely not going to change anytime soon.

Regardless, a number of us consider 'Europe' as a primarily metal album, and it certainly can't be ignored with regards to EuroPM's development, along with a few later songs by them (especially "Scream of Anger" off of their otherwise less metallic sophomore effort).

As for USPM, what the failsafeman said. What he said about the term EuroPM coming from the band Europe, however, was just him reinforcing the pun in my previous post (didn't expect that to require being spelled out, but oh well). :D
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maidenpriestmanic
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:14 am 
 

Wait? Europe isn't on the archives, I never notice that before, weird, I would thought they would be, but whatever, still I do see the influence they have on bands like helloween.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:32 am 
 

I'm not too sure about Europe's influence on power metal, but they were definitely metal.
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maidenpriestmanic
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:56 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
I'm not too sure about Europe's influence on power metal, but they were definitely metal.


Agreed, there first 2 albums aren't even borderline. Straight up heavy metal there.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:04 am 
 

Europe definitely are borderline; even "Scream of Anger" has significant hard rock elements, and as LegendMaker said it's the most metal track on the album. Borderline bands are evaluated on a case-by-case basis, and it was decided in the site's infancy that Europe fell on the other side of the border. Obviously music isn't so binary, but with a site like this there's no middle ground; they're either in or they're out.

To get back to the matter at hand, I think you'd have to be deaf to miss the influence of Europe and similar bands on early EuroPM. It's from them and AOR in general that LegendMaker's beloved "Santa Choruses" derive.
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BlackGoat
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:17 pm 
 

It's funny how things get blurred by those who were born too late.

Seriously though, the first time I ever read the term "Power Metal" used as a genre was when JUDAS PRIEST released "Painkiller" and journalists were clutching for superlatives to describe it. It just spiraled out of control from there. Because let's face it, did we really need a new genre wedged between Heavy Metal and Speed Metal ?
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:28 pm 
 

Obviously we did, because it's a very useful term used to describe music that would otherwise be lumped in with thousands of other bands that are quite different. Just because terms were used a certain way 20-30 years ago doesn't mean they can't acquire different meanings later. Unless "boner" still means "big mistake"?

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Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:40 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Unless "boner" still means "big mistake"?


It usually does :(
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marktheviktor
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:52 pm 
 

The Heaven and Hell album and Bruce Dickenson era Iron Maiden were the inspiration for power metal as we know it just like early Sabbath was for doom metal although nobody considers these bands as power metal.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:54 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Obviously we did, because it's a very useful term used to describe music that would otherwise be lumped in with thousands of other bands that are quite different.

But how useful is it when there's no consensus at all?
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The Animator
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:49 pm 
 

Opus, it seems to me that most people are in an agreement on what is power metal, the main cause for disagreement seems to come from people that hate EuroPower and cant stand USPM bands being lumped together with it. Plus there are still people who label most hard rock as metal and think glam rock is classic heavy metal. Your never going to find a term that everyone agrees with.

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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:29 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
failsafeman wrote:
Obviously we did, because it's a very useful term used to describe music that would otherwise be lumped in with thousands of other bands that are quite different.

But how useful is it when there's no consensus at all?

Have you been reading this thread? There is plenty of consensus, as much as with any other genre descriptor.
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Seriously, why ban me??????? That topic had nothing wrong with it! Theres something wrong with you i can tell you! You're immoral banning of my account! Anyways, i'm creating my own metal arcives.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 7:47 pm 
 

The Animator wrote:
the main cause for disagreement seems to come from people that hate EuroPower and cant stand USPM bands being lumped together with it.

Haha, nail got hit on the head.

The Animator wrote:
Your never going to find a term that everyone agrees with.

At least no one claims that black metal isn't black metal because it isn't black, or death metal isn't death metal because it isn't dead.
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maidenpriestmanic
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:07 pm 
 

No instead you get people claim black metal isn't black metal because it doesn't have satanic lyrics.

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