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maidenpriestmanic
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:26 pm 
 

I am just kinda curious, but what would be considered the very first power metal album, for me I was thinking either manilla road's crystal logic or savatage's sirens, not really sure what other pm albums where earlier or around that time.

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gabber
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:55 pm 
 

Depends what you define as power metal.. some would say Manowar or even Maiden are power metal (I disagree), but I think it's universally accepted that Helloween's Keeper albums kind of kick started what we call power metal nowadays.
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Dandelo
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:08 pm 
 

I tend to think of Rainbow as being one of the early catalysts for that sound. It may not be too metallic, but some of their earlier albums have the same elements in certain tracks (Stargazer, Kill the King, Gates of Babylon). I identify those tracks as sharing a lot in common with the sub genre.

Well, to me, anyway!

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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:34 pm 
 

The Rainbow stuff and Black Sabbath's Heaven and Hell got it off to a very primitive start. They all gave us the beginnings of the fantastical lyrics, the upbeat, grooving tempos, the mystical atmosphere, the wild leads...it was heavy metal made more grandiose, more over the top.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:44 pm 
 

While I've always seen Rainbow as the big power metal catalyst, I'd say there are very early elements of the style on a few Deep Purple songs like Pictures Of Home and Burn. Led Zeppelin's Achilles Last Stand and a few odd Sabbath songs also come to mind but I give credit to Ritchie Blackmore first and foremost.
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Vitross
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:54 pm 
 

The first proper power metal album would be Helloween "Keeper of the Seven Keys, Part I". Their debut album and their EP before that weren't really power metal as we know it, but a kind of speedy/heavy metal. I don't know how exactly they got their inspiration for the Keeper albums, but other powery metal bands before them would be Manilla Road, Jag Panzer, Manowar, Helstar, Riot maybe even Armored Saint. It really came from Iron Maiden, that had some fantasy flavored music, and those high vocals. Before that Rainbow can be considered as proto-power metal I guess, with those fantasy lyrics and the vibe that the music gives.

Power metal evolved slowly from the release of the Keeper album in 1987. If we look at modern power metal so called euro-power metal, it took about ten years when it suddenly broke out into the known style in the late 90s. It was really all about Helloween, Gamma Ray, Stratovarius, Grave Digger, Rage and Running Wild and these albums were still not pure euro power styled. Anyways I consider "Eagle Fly Free" the most important and influential power metal song of all time.
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Riffs
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:14 pm 
 

gabber wrote:
Depends what you define as power metal.. some would say Manowar or even Maiden are power metal (I disagree), but I think it's universally accepted that Helloween's Keeper albums kind of kick started what we call power metal nowadays.


This.

It's mostly Kiske-Helloween, although some people could offer different explanations that are a little far-fetched.
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FengisRipRider
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:25 pm 
 

I associate it with bands like Stratovarious(like the 1st one frightnight i think it is), Helloween(like hansen era), Gamma Ray(like some), Edguy(hate), Blind Gaurdian(like). Most of it I don't really care for. What are the biggest influences for thlose types of bands......seems like Dio, 70's Rainbow, and the two BS albums he was on. Also early Riot (70's stuff), Kiss, Camel, Genesis, Uriah Heap, Judas Priest, seem to be most of those bands biggest influences.

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Jophelerx
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:42 pm 
 

Everyone seems to forget that europower does not equal power metal. USPM was well-established by the time KotSK came out. While there were some bands that certainly influenced power metal earlier, I'd say the earliest legitimate power metal release was Queensryche's EP.

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maidenpriestmanic
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:49 pm 
 

Jophelerx wrote:
Everyone seems to forget that europower does not equal power metal. USPM was well-established by the time KotSK came out.


I agree with this, I consider both USPM and eruopower as power metal. They both share enough traits to be in the same genre IMO, just one is heavier than the other.

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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:25 pm 
 

Power metal always struck me as nothing more than heavy metal with speed metal technique. However, European power metal sounds more like religious music.

And that Helloween album blows goat balls. One of the few metal things I truly cannot stand.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:43 pm 
 

To me the oldest album with clear power metal elements is Manilla Road's Crystal Logic but the first full on power metal i guess would be Helstar's debut.

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I_Am_Vengeance
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:04 pm 
 

I'm going to have to go with Queensrÿche's self titled EP as well.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:00 am 
 

I_Am_Vengeance wrote:
I'm going to have to go with Queensrÿche's self titled EP as well.


There's a lot of Iron Maiden influence in that, but it's the very speed metally middle period Maiden, or so it always sounded to me.
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Turner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:06 am 
 

Jophelerx wrote:
Everyone seems to forget that europower does not equal power metal. USPM was well-established by the time KotSK came out. While there were some bands that certainly influenced power metal earlier, I'd say the earliest legitimate power metal release was Queensryche's EP.


no one has forgotten this, no one at all. certainly can't when someone brings it up in EVERY THREAD, in any case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

read this, and please take note.

(edited for good taste)

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AcidWorm
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:31 am 
 

For the softer euro stuff the label of "power" feels misleading but that is how it is used so I just accept it.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:48 am 
 

Turner wrote:
Jophelerx wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change


Quoting Wikipedia is like quoting bathroom graffiti.

Also, because words do change, doesn't mean that's always a good thing.
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XcKyle93
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:55 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
Turner wrote:
Quoting Wikipedia is like quoting bathroom graffiti.


...except for the fact that articles on Wikipedia need to cite sources, are patrolled by autonomous bots, usually don't have crudely drawn penises, etc.

I'm not saying that it's okay to cite Wikipedia, I'm just pointing out that your analogy is as bad as the crudely drawn dicks that are a recurring motif in the aforementioned bathroom graffiti.

I don't know much about power metal admittedly, but I always though it started with Rainbow & Dio, maybe some Queensyrche.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:05 am 
 

XcKyle93 wrote:
...except for the fact that articles on Wikipedia need to cite sources, are patrolled by autonomous bots, usually don't have crudely drawn penises, etc.


It's a false front. It's easy to insert false information into Wikipedia, and much of their published sources say nothing like what they're cited as supporting.

I'd rather cite the bathroom graffiti. At least I could work in a cultural angle.

Dio? Which era? Power metal? Interesting.

As an out-of-the-closet Queensryche fan, I like the direction this thread is taking...
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Turner
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:25 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
XcKyle93 wrote:
...except for the fact that articles on Wikipedia need to cite sources, are patrolled by autonomous bots, usually don't have crudely drawn penises, etc.


It's a false front. It's easy to insert false information into Wikipedia, and much of their published sources say nothing like what they're cited as supporting.

I'd rather cite the bathroom graffiti. At least I could work in a cultural angle.


just to clarify, i have an undergraduate major in linguistics and that article is spot-on. and your argument is more or less unapproachable, so i'll respond in kind and say this: i guarantee that, in any given amount of time, i could find infinitely more random pages that are cited properly than you could that aren't.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:59 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
It's a false front. It's easy to insert false information into Wikipedia, and much of their published sources say nothing like what they're cited as supporting.

Did you even read the wiki article? Is it "false"?
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vengefulgoat
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:19 am 
 

Jophelerx wrote:
Everyone seems to forget that europower does not equal power metal. USPM was well-established by the time KotSK came out. While there were some bands that certainly influenced power metal earlier, I'd say the earliest legitimate power metal release was Queensryche's EP.

Huge part of USPM is just heavy metal or borderline heavy/power.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:17 am 
 

Does Yngwie's debut count as power metal? Cause Malmsteen is without a doubt a massive influence in euro power metal and to me it doesn't sound too different than many EUPM stuff. By the time Helloween released 'Keepers', Yngwie had 3 albums already.
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Muthafuca
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:42 am 
 

For some, first "proper" power metal song is Fast as a Shark by Accept, released in 1982.

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ENKC
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:01 am 
 

Muthafuca wrote:
For some, first "proper" power metal song is Fast as a Shark by Accept, released in 1982.

That may be one of the defining speed metal songs of all time, and a massive influence on thrash, but what on earth is "power metal" about it?
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:03 am 
 

Turner wrote:
just to clarify, i have an undergraduate major in linguistics and that article is spot-on. and your argument is more or less unapproachable, so i'll respond in kind and say this: i guarantee that, in any given amount of time, i could find infinitely more random pages that are cited properly than you could that aren't.


Linking a Wikipedia article about a concept you're referring to when your explanation is so lazy that you don't even use capital letters is obnoxious, especially because you aren't contributing anything to the thread. Turning a discussion of metal on a metal website into pedantic arguments is annoying, don't do it.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:08 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Does Yngwie's debut count as power metal?

No, he popularized "neo-classical" metal, which quite a few power metal bands have integrated into their music. Not much neo-classicalicism on KotSK though.
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Opus
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:20 am 
 

I too am of the opinion that the meaning of the term power metal have changed, and now mean what call Euro power metal. Back in the early 80's power metal wasn't at all a defined genre, seeing as both Metallica, Venom and Pantera was called that.
The unifying characteristics of power metal are (generally speaking) the fast tempos, constant double-bass, high pitched, clean vocalists, and, the dividing factor, major key choruses.

I don't see why what gets called USPM won't fit into the already established genres: heavy metal, speed metal, epic (heavy) metal?

Let the insults commence.
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:57 am 
 

A few 1983 releases can be seen as starting points for full-blown power metal, yes (QueensRÿche's debut EP, Savatage's 'Sirens', MR's 'Crystal Logic', Pretty Maids' debut EP, Mercyful Fate's 'Melissa'...), and this was the result of converging threads of influence traceable back to a host of songs scattered across early Deep Purple, Uriah Heep, Rainbow's and Sabbath's Dio-era, Priest from Sad Wings onward, late 70s/early 80s Thin Lizzy (culminating on 'Chinatown'), and NWoBHM, chiefly Angel Witch and Maiden. Oh, and Mano-fucking-War, obviously.

I'd say it wasn't until 1984 with albums like Omen's 'Battle Cry', Jag Panzer's 'Ample Destruction', Pretty Maid's 'Red, Hot & Heavy' or QueensRÿche's 'The Warning', Griffin's 'Flight of the Griffin', Grave Digger's debut and others that shit got serious, and the genre emerged as something a bit more refined and recognizable. Helstar's debut was getting there too, certainly, even if it was their most hard/heavy-infused release. By 1985 it was a blossoming and expanding genre, with full-length albums all over the place from every corner (chiefly, but not just the US at the time).

And then in 1986/87, the genre's more melodic and progressive side blossomed further, with Crimson Glory, Heir Apparent, QueensRÿche, Savage Grace and then, of course, Helloween's insanely influential mutation, and two branches drifted further away from one another.

Turner wrote:
Jophelerx wrote:
Everyone seems to forget that europower does not equal power metal. USPM was well-established by the time KotSK came out. While there were some bands that certainly influenced power metal earlier, I'd say the earliest legitimate power metal release was Queensryche's EP.


no one has forgotten this, no one at all. certainly can't when someone brings it up in EVERY THREAD, in any case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change

read this, and please take note.

(edited for good taste)

I'm not sure I follow what you're getting at with this, Turner. Sure, the "EuroPM =/= all of the PM" point is made in every single thread about power metal origins and early history, but it wouldn't have to be if half the contributors to such discussions didn't answer strictly about EuroPM, and more specifically went ahead and outright stated power metal started with the first Keeper.

Besides, it's not like the term's meaning had completely shifted and was almost exclusively used in reference to post-Keepers EuroPM nowadays, with only a few stubborn old farts still insisting Omen or Jag Panzer also be called power metal. I actually think it's the opposite, and most metalheads use "power metal" in the broader sense, to this day. Those with only Helloclones in mind are in the minority.
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Metallic Shock
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:40 pm 
 

ENKC wrote:
Muthafuca wrote:
For some, first "proper" power metal song is Fast as a Shark by Accept, released in 1982.

That may be one of the defining speed metal songs of all time, and a massive influence on thrash, but what on earth is "power metal" about it?

Maybe the fact that the drum beat and tempo is nearly the same as a lot of power metal? The chugging at a fast tempo but not quite a thrash tempo is pretty power metal too but more than that, the sing along chorus and the harmonized lead put on top of that tempo sound VERY power metal. I've always thought of it as one of the first power metal songs really.

Otherwise I think the whole USPM categorization is a bit misleading historically. To my knowledge, power metal didn't find much use as a solidified genre term (as opposed to just meaning metal with power) until a number of years after the Keeper albums came out. That is to say, the USPM bands probably weren't referred to as power metal and especially not under the separated category of USPM until after the euro power phenomenon became more prominent. So it's not that bands like Helloween "stole" the term from the American bands, since they were the first to be called that in the sense of an actual genre. I could be a bit off historically though so if anyone was around to see the term develop feel free to correct me.

Nonetheless I do think that the two are linked enough to be associated under a similar genre term, but this makes finding an actual starting point a lot more difficult. Personally I'd say Maiden's Number of the Beast is pretty close to what we now think of as power metal. It stripped away the punk-ish aspect of the last two records and has tons of big harmonies and melodies (the chorus in The Prisoner sounds almost in the Helloween world), as well as having that "racing" vibe rhythmically. Plus the hard rock influences were significantly diminished so yeah, Maiden seem the closest bet to me.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:48 pm 
 

Metallic Shock wrote:
Otherwise I think the whole USPM categorization is a bit misleading historically. To my knowledge, power metal didn't find much use as a solidified genre term (as opposed to just meaning metal with power) until a number of years after the Keeper albums came out. That is to say, the USPM bands probably weren't referred to as power metal and especially not under the separated category of USPM until after the euro power phenomenon became more prominent. So it's not that bands like Helloween "stole" the term from the American bands, since they were the first to be called that in the sense of an actual genre. I could be a bit off historically though so if anyone was around to see the term develop feel free to correct me.


You are correct.

USPM is mostly a bullshit term used by kids nowadays, thanks to this new obsession of categorizing everything in metal into further subcategories until the whole thing is actually meaningless.
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Ritual_Suicide
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:07 pm 
 

Power metal is power metal whether its "US" power metal or "Euro" Power metal. With that said, there is a difference between the two but its no more of a difference than exists between Bay Area and German thrash metal, NY and Swedish death metal or Hellenic and Norwegian black metal.

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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:38 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
USPM is mostly a bullshit term used by kids nowadays, thanks to this new obsession of categorizing everything in metal into further subcategories until the whole thing is actually meaningless.

Just chiming in to point out my dislike for this notion of yours, Riffs. I understand having a bit of an aversion towards nowadays' almost obsessive compulsive tendency for labeling, but I think that separating American and European power metal is not without its merits. It's not unlike pointing out the differences between, say, Swedish and American death metal. Is USPM a modern term? Most certainly. Is it useless? I don't think so.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:51 pm 
 

The term "USPM" wasn't needed in the 80s, but the term "heavy metal" was less ambiguous back then. There's a lot more stuff that came under the metal umbrella since then and other terms have come into more specific usage. Most importantly, its usage seems to be very well understood, so it's a great label.

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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:26 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
The term "USPM" wasn't needed in the 80s, but the term "heavy metal" was less ambiguous back then. There's a lot more stuff that came under the metal umbrella since then and other terms have come into more specific usage.


I tend to think that "heavy metal" is a term like "classical music": both a specific sub-genre/time period/style, and a catch-all for the whole type of music. As a result, many things can be suspended within those two definitions without being wrong or inspecific.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:04 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
Zodijackyl wrote:
The term "USPM" wasn't needed in the 80s, but the term "heavy metal" was less ambiguous back then. There's a lot more stuff that came under the metal umbrella since then and other terms have come into more specific usage.


I tend to think that "heavy metal" is a term like "classical music": both a specific sub-genre/time period/style, and a catch-all for the whole type of music. As a result, many things can be suspended within those two definitions without being wrong or inspecific.


Certainly true, but it also merits the use of more specific terms in order to convey a more specific meaning. Both in use on MA and in how the abbreviation breaks down - United States power metal - this is an effective abbreviation/subclassification that is understood with a much clearer meaning than the alternative term(s).

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:03 pm 
 

Xlxlx wrote:
Riffs wrote:
USPM is mostly a bullshit term used by kids nowadays, thanks to this new obsession of categorizing everything in metal into further subcategories until the whole thing is actually meaningless.

Just chiming in to point out my dislike for this notion of yours, Riffs. I understand having a bit of an aversion towards nowadays' almost obsessive compulsive tendency for labeling, but I think that separating American and European power metal is not without its merits.


I understand your disagreement, my friend.

We see the same things but come from different perspectives. Of course European power metal is different from wwhat people refer to as "USPM". That's because "USPM" is basically heavy metal. That's what it was called back then and that was good enough.

The reason power metal sounds so derivative and bland is precisely because most of its musicians are obssessed with a very specific formula.

I'm extremely happy lumping Accept, Virgin Steele, Mercyful Fate, Judas Priest and Crimson Glory all together as good old heavy metal, no matter if some of them employ different vocal styles or borrow epic or progressive elements.

Zodijackyl's point about the evolution of the genre is good but I remain unconvinced in this case.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:29 pm 
 

Well, shit, I was about to point at Zodi's comment :-P

Your point about perspectives has its share of truth though, seeing how I'm cringing at the idea of lumping together most of the bands you mentioned :lol:
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Turner
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:29 pm 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
Turner wrote:
just to clarify, i have an undergraduate major in linguistics and that article is spot-on. and your argument is more or less unapproachable, so i'll respond in kind and say this: i guarantee that, in any given amount of time, i could find infinitely more random pages that are cited properly than you could that aren't.


Linking a Wikipedia article about a concept you're referring to when your explanation is so lazy that you don't even use capital letters is obnoxious, especially because you aren't contributing anything to the thread. Turning a discussion of metal on a metal website into pedantic arguments is annoying, don't do it.


apologies and all, but seriously... every single thread that even so much as mentions the term power metal gets this same treatment - the true metal fans come in and start moaning about the loss of "their" term, as if the subgenre lost its momentum along with the label. and the sentiment is always the same: "why doesn't anyone remember that REAL POWER METAL has nothing to do with this euro-flower shit?!", as if its not being brought up every time.

but you are right - it has nothing to do with my pedantic argument, rather everything to do with the piss-and-moan nature of the true metal fans, when they well know that every trend will go against their niche little genre. give them half a chance, and they will complain about fucking EVERYTHING. this isn't metal, that logo isn't hand-drawn in the back of a high school notebook enough, where have all the occult themes gone, why is X band of today so popular when long-forgotten underground band Y did much the same thing, only tuned to E and recorded on an 8-track in a garage in 1985? blah blah blah, its a never-ending stream of whining, and with no decent reason.

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Ferturi
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 4:10 am
Posts: 76
Location: Mexico
PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2013 9:45 pm 
 

Would the american band Legend count as power metal? (of the "USPM" kind, obviously); it sounds to me similar to the style of Manilla Road; if so, it'd be the first band properly in the genre I guess, since their only album was released in '79.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_JWcHIIGyI

Other contenders would be Cirith Ungol (I know they're considered doom, but I also find a lot of USPM in their sound, mainly the first album from 1980 and their early demos from '79 also): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMyWodUxn_A

And of course Manowar, I guess their first releases can also be considered USPM: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RivHrxfkV0

And I'm not entirely sure USPM can be classified as a separate genre; it truly sounds closer to trad. heavy metal than modern power metal to me; and most of my friends upon listening to it just call it "heavy metal". I also find it difficult to differentiate both genres; as some heavy metal or NWOBHM bands from the era do sound closer to the melodic style of power metal that is popular today (most obvious would be Iron Maiden).
I also don't like tags like "USPM" or "NWOBHM" that much, as they refer to a geographic location, even when they do have distinct sounds and there are bands from other locations playing the style (for example, Battleroar from Greece has a "USPM" sound, and Mexico's Luzbel sounds NWOBHM). I'd rather refer to USPM as "Heavy/Power Metal", though I haven't find a good non-geographic descriptor for NWOBHM.

My guess is that both NWOBHM and USPM are actually just local scenes or styles of Traditional Heavy Metal (like Swedish Death Metal or Greek Black Metal); and in retrospect USPM is now seen as a "transitional" or "proto-" style of heavy that greatly influenced modern power metal, hence the "US Power Metal" label, kind of similar to Black Sabbath being referred as "Heavy/Doom" or "Proto-Doom", or Possessed being called "Death/Thrash". That's why I prefer the "Heavy/Power Metal" label for those bands, I'd love to hear suggestions for a better non-geographic term for the NWOBHM sound also.

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