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IanThrash
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:56 pm
Posts: 920
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:23 pm 
 

We should draw a line. Accepting Venom as the first english black metal bands is hilarious.
Sodom was black as hell in 84 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmgUu_8SoBc

One crazy thing about Rotting Christ is that no one talks about their early grindcore approach
they released like 3 demos and 1 split being a extreme deathgrinding band, they didnt started as black metal
til 89 or so


On a parallel note Id like to give Mefisto (swe) some recognition, even if Bathory has the undisputable crown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwD6KoCZ6Kg
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Eulogydemise
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:39 pm
Posts: 7
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:28 pm 
 

UnholyAnalDeathWorship wrote:
Wilytank wrote:
As far as the United States goes, I think NME is a likely contender for the first of the country. They're more of a Venom/Hellhammer influenced band though, though almost all first wave bands were. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isUOvOmkW1w

Good find, definitely what I'd call one of if not the first BM band in America. Really morbid sounding stuff.
Also, in the notes for their MA page it's definitely trve kvlt..
"In April 1986, Kurt was accused of killing his adoptive mother with a hatchet and scissors while on drugs. He claimed that he thought he was a robot. He wanted to open up his mother to see if she was a robot also. He was charged with second-degree murder and was sentenced to 12 years in prison. He was released early in 1994 and that was when NME's music took a change."


First post here, been lurking for years. I gotta say, this thread is what prompted me to take the dive and join in on a discussion. Its all a matter of semantics and definitions mixed in with opinions on these sorts of things, but are you guys serious? NME? Really? For what Black Metal is, and supposed to be, as far as looks, lyrical content, and music, the 1st US Black Metal band ever was SLAYER. They were heavily influenced by the first Black Metal band there ever was: VENOM, and were even called the US VENOM back in the day. Just check out these flyers:
Image
Image

Come on guys, I know the general age here is young, but you should know your history. Whatever the term Black Metal has changed into, it is always going to be: Fast Heavy music, lyrics about Satan/Evil etc, Leather, spikes, chains, face paint, and OTT in every way on all of those. Yes, the music is faster, and heavier now than it was in 1981-83, but come on, the ingredients are always the same. SLAYER in the Show No Mercy era and before, the look is nearly identical to modern day Black Metal bands such as NIFELHEIM, and the music is among the first Black metal there was, and it laid the foundation for all of the bands that followed that made the music more "extreme" in all ways. But, it's always the same formula. No room for discussion here guys, this is fact. I have old zines from the time period of 83-85 and SLAYER constantly referred to themselves as "Black Metal" all the way up to Haunting The Chapel. I can scan them in, and just might for the sake of argument. For sure, past that album and era, they were more proto "Death Metal" with Hell Awaits, and then even further away from being a "Black Metal" band with Reign In Blood, which was basically Death/Thrash. Past that, and we know what happened.

edit*
Look at this picture of SLAYER in 1983 and compare to NIFELHEIM now:
Image
vs
Image

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IanThrash
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:56 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:21 pm 
 

So 70% of heavy metal bands actually play black metal.
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ThrashingTheRedemer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:50 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:11 pm 
 

The laughably primitive Occult could also be considered a contender for the US, also forming in 1984 http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Occult/117589. They sound more like a joke band though, possibly a side project for some bored hardcore kids. Check out their demo from 1985 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrWXPHLnsiU

Another early US entry is Combat, again forming in 1984. I know nothing about this band, their style is described as speed/thrash/black, so perhaps not quite worthy to add to the list? http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Combat/5704

Anyone willing to add more light on these two bands?

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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:33 pm 
 

Eulogydemise wrote:
Whatever the term Black Metal has changed into, it is always going to be: Fast Heavy music, lyrics about Satan/Evil etc, Leather, spikes, chains, face paint, and OTT in every way on all of those.


I don't think it was actually a genre until the Norse explosion. Until that point, "black metal" was a descriptive term like "black magic" or "black hat" or even "black soul" -- meaning something evil alone. Mercyful Fate was heavy metal, Venom was NWOBHM (very close to Motorhead, actually), Bathory/Hellhammer/Sodom were proto-underground metal. We didn't really get black metal until Immortal/Darkthrone/Burzum et al.
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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:34 pm 
 

If we're going to define first wave black metal loosely enough to include Venom and Mercyful Fate, then I think Show No Mercy-era Slayer fits.

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Conservationism
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:18 am 
 

AppleQueso wrote:
If we're going to define first wave black metal loosely enough to include Venom and Mercyful Fate, then I think Show No Mercy-era Slayer fits.


I include them in the proto-underground with Hellhammer, Bathory and Sodom.

I don't consider Venom and Mercyful Fate to be black metal. It's not a musically meaningful term there.
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ThrashingTheRedemer
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:35 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
AppleQueso wrote:
If we're going to define first wave black metal loosely enough to include Venom and Mercyful Fate, then I think Show No Mercy-era Slayer fits.

I include them in the proto-underground with Hellhammer, Bathory and Sodom.


Thanks for reminding me - Hellhammer/Celtic Frost now on the list. Slayer, however, is not.

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:46 am 
 

Guys, don't you think this is getting a bit ridiculous? Vulcano, really?

Their 1983 EP sounds like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryC3DEyZ_HA

They didn't sound "extreme" until 1986, and at that point they're just sloppily playing really fast thrash.

If we're going to be so damn loose with the definition of black metal, I'm going to go ahead and say the first American black metal band was Cromagnon, with this landmark black metal song from 1969:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPiO_G-DEHs
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ThrashingTheRedemer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:50 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:53 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Guys, don't you think this is getting a bit ridiculous? Vulcano, really?

Their 1983 EP sounds like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryC3DEyZ_HA

They didn't sound "extreme" until 1986, and at that point they're just sloppily playing really fast thrash.


Yes, but in 1986 they sounded like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtbQbrH_MaI, which has enough blackened elements to qualify. It is incidentally the same year as Sarcofago's first demo, by which stage Vulcano had already been playing for years

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DreamOfDarkness
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Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:09 pm
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:43 am 
 

I'd say Salem for Israel, founded in 1985. During the first years they played black metal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQHkIwc9MNo
This is from their 1990 "Millions Slaughtered Live" demo (which was later included on the Creating our Sins EP)

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:08 am 
 

Many thrash, speed and death metal in the 80s wrote material that was different from their respective genres, having elements that became common denominators for black metal bands. However, I consider the Norwegian second wave to be where the genre was truly born in its purest form. Bands like Mayhem, Darkthrone and Burzum played music that was purely in the style which separated bands like Hellhammer and Venom from merely speed and thrash metal. In other words, they refined what was black in the 80s bands sound. Bathory was something of a watershed there, actually.

That means Mercyful Fate was heavy metal with some dark themes that inspired black metal musicians later. There are few musical parallels (Emperor was probably the most influenced by MF, musically speaking, and even there it mostly translated as pomp, rather than easily recognisable musical themes). Slayer was thrash, obviously, being that their riffing influenced later black metal musicians like Infernus quite a bit.

Very early Beherit is Hellhammer worship with the blackness increased by a notch. Black metal with very dark speed metal riffing, really. Hard to call it full-fledged black metal. It still counts, of course.
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ancientorder
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Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:38 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:22 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Very early Beherit is Hellhammer worship with the blackness increased by a notch. Black metal with very dark speed metal riffing, really. Hard to call it full-fledged black metal.

Very early Beherit is fueled by Carcass/other old grindcore and Sarcófago, and little later by Blasphemy as well (both Holocausto and Sodomatic have said Blood Upon the Altar was the most profane recording they had ever heard at that time). It should be pretty evident if you have heard recording of the last Pseudochrist (pre-Beherit) live gig which is pure grindcore.

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vengefulgoat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:15 am
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:03 am 
 

AppleQueso wrote:
If we're going to define first wave black metal loosely enough to include Venom and Mercyful Fate, then I think Show No Mercy-era Slayer fits.

Iron Maiden had some black metal songs too, apparently.

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Eulogydemise
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:39 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:16 pm 
 

The things being said here are all over the place. Revisionist/incorrect post-internet information for the most part.

Here are the facts guys:

The first wave bands and Full Length & Ep's & Demos that laid the foundation for the 2nd wave are going to be listed below. The 2nd wave was a direct result of what these first bands did. These are the ones that my fiends and I were collecting when they came out and we ALL called them BLACK Metal, as did the bands themselves for the most part. These were all our Black Metal before any of the Scandinavian explosion happened, and that's what led to the actual demise of the Black Metal underground where posers and fakes invaded and took over. That is why we have the modern day "Black Metal" that does not even resemble the original mold :

1ST WAVE - 1981-1991
BATHORY (Sweden)
- Bathory (1984)
- The Return...... (1985)
- Under The Sign Of The Black Mark (1987)
BEHERIT
- Seventh Blasphemy (1990)
- Demonomancy (1990)
- Dawn Of Satan's Millenium (1990)
BLACK PROPHECIES
- Azathoth
- Turning The Crosses Towards Hell
BLASPHEMY
- Blood Upon The Altar (1989)
- Fallen Angel Of Doom.... (1990)
CELTIC FROST
- Morbid Tales (1984)
- Emperor's Return (1985)
- To Mega Therion (1985)
DESTRUCTION
- Bestial Invasion Of Hell (1984)
- Sentence Of Death (1984)
EXPULSER
- Fornications (1989)
HELLHAMMER
- Death Fiend (1983)
- Triumph Of Death (1983)
- Satanic Rites (1983)
INSULTER
- Black Church (1987)
KREATOR
- Endless Pain (1985)
MAYHEM
- Pure Fucking Armageddon (1986)
- Deathcrush (1987)
MASTER'S HAMMER
- Ritual (1991)
MERCYFUL FATE
- Mercyful Fate/Nuns Have No Fun (1982)
- Melissa (1983)
- Don't Break The Oath (1984)
MORBID
- December Moon (1987)
MORTUARY DRAPE
- Necromancy (1987)
- Doom Return (1989)
NECROVORE
- Divus De Mortuus (1987)
PARABELLUM
- Sacrilegio (1987)
POISON
- Into The Abyss (1987)
POSSESSED
- Seven Churches (1985)
ROOT
- Reap Of Hell (1988)
- Zjeveni (1990)
ROTTING CHRIST
- Satanas Tedeum (1989)
SAMAEL
- Into The Infernal Storm Of Evil (1987)
- Medieval Prophecy (1988)
SARCOFAGO
- Satanic Lust (1986)
- I.N.R.I. (1987)
- Christ's Death (1987)
SEPULTURA
- Bestial Devastation (1985)
- Morbid Visions (1986)
SLAYER
- Nocturnal Spectre (1983)
- Show No Mercy (1983)
- Haunting The Chapel (1984)
SODOM
- Witching Metal (1982)
- Victims Of Death (1984)
- In The Sign Of Evil (1984)
- Obsessed By Cruelty (1986)
TREBLINKA
- Crawling In Vomits (1988)
- The Sign Of The Pentagram (1989)
- Severe Abomination (1989)
VENOM
- Welcome To Hell (1981)
- Black Metal (1982)
- At War With Satan (1984)
- Possessed (1985)
VULCANO
- Bloody Vengeance (1986)

COMPILATIONS
- Death Metal (HELLHAMMER) (1984)
- Projections Of A Stained Mind (MAYHEM/GROTESQUE/THERION/TIAMAT etc)
- Scandinavian Metal Attack (BATHORY/OZ) (1984)
- Warfare Noise (SARCOFAGO/MUTILATOR/HOLOCAUSTO) (1986)

Anyone not agreeing with any of this (such as the inclusion of KREATOR, just listen to "Total Death" and "Tormentor" and tell me those are not almost identical to modern Black Metal in sound and delivery) I can almost guarantee were not there during all of this. Again, this is what my friends and I all listened to, collected as, listed in our trade lists as, and referred to as, BLACK METAL. You can throw in MORBID ANGEL and a few more as well, but these are the main ones I personally grew up and called Black metal.

Pentagrams, the occult, Satanism, Evil, bullets, spikes, chains, black leather, altars, blood, crucifixes and on and on. These were, and will always be the foundation of Black Metal. Take those basic ingredients out and it is not Black Metal. Those ingredients are what differentiated it in the past from bands such as SACRIFICE, SLAUGHTER, DEATH, VOIVOD, EXODUS, ORDER FROM CHAOS, latter day records from SLAYER, SEPULTURA etc,. This should be obvious to anyone with a brain, but since the internet has given anyone with an opinion a voice now, the line where the truth and revisionist half truths exist, is blurred, and no one knows the truth anymore except for those of us who lived it and continue to do so. Once those of my era are dead and gone, so will the truth be gone. The internet has skewed and altered reality so badly, that the damage is almost irreversible I am starting to see.

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ThrashingTheRedemer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:50 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:38 pm 
 

...and most of them made the list.

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TheGrimWombat
Nelson Wannabe

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:06 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:12 pm 
 

ThrashingTheRedemer wrote:
Another early US entry is Combat, again forming in 1984. I know nothing about this band, their style is described as speed/thrash/black, so perhaps not quite worthy to add to the list? http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Combat/5704

Anyone willing to add more light on these two bands?



I have heard this band when they were Napalm. Definitely just boring, midpaced thrash.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:20 pm 
 

I think the long list is somewhat inspiring as to influences, but it doesn't indicate what black metal is; it shows influences, and they are not identical to black metal. Further, the Nordic bands were active starting in 1989, as I recall, with Mayhem kicking around even earlier. I'm glad it includes Slayer, Bathory, et al as these important influences are often overlooked.
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IanThrash
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:28 am 
 

That list makes no sense, you mixed full on bestial black metal with 80s gritty speed metal, people also called Celtic Frost thrash metal, the fact that you and your buddies felt super bad ass calling it black metal does not change anything. The fact that you included Mercyful Fate (heavy metal) and Necrovore (old school death metal) in the same list, takes away all your credibility. In your book every extreme gritty form of metal with satanic imaginery was black metal, you are trying to define a genre by the looks and lyrical content, but the failure is that your criteria applies/ed to almost the half of the metal bands back then, regardless of the genre. Not so sure about that. Considering Show no Mercy early USBM is hilarious to me, but hey! everyone can have an opinion, right?




Everyone needs to draw the line. The fact that Destruction was an influence to many full on black metal bands does not make them the first black metal band. The stantards are getting too loose, every band with a minimum resemblance to bm is now the pioneer of the genre.
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Last edited by IanThrash on Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:36 am 
 

IanThrash wrote:
the fact that you and your buddies felt super bad ass calling it black metal does not change anything


Until the Nordics, "black metal" just meant Satanic content. There was always a hint that it was more melody-based than rhythmically precise, but most people used the term in the same way "white metal" meant Christian metal.
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IanThrash
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:43 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
IanThrash wrote:
the fact that you and your buddies felt super bad ass calling it black metal does not change anything


Until the Nordics, "black metal" just meant Satanic content. There was always a hint that it was more melody-based than rhythmically precise, but most people used the term in the same way "white metal" meant Christian metal.




But it was not an accurate term, some people used "black metal" to describe the same bands that other fellows tagged as "Death metal" and some others as "thrash". Black metal got a definition with the nordic scene, previous meanings were too loose and un accurate to be taken into account when trying to find the pioneers of the genre.
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ThrashingTheRedemer
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:50 am
Posts: 185
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:49 am 
 

IanThrash wrote:
that list makes no sense, you mixed full on bestial black metal with 80s gritty speed metal, people also called celtic frost thrash metal, the fact that you and your buddies felt super bad ass calling it black metal does not change anything


Except that is precisely what the First Wave of BM was, a loose collection of different bands with different styles, pushing the envelope in some way (be it sound, imagery, attitude or all of it) towards the BM aesthetic we know of today. It had little to do with the sounds of the Second Wave laid out in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia, apart from some carry-over with 80's Bathory & Hellhammer.

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IanThrash
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:56 pm
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Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:11 am 
 

ThrashingTheRedemer wrote:
IanThrash wrote:
that list makes no sense, you mixed full on bestial black metal with 80s gritty speed metal, people also called celtic frost thrash metal, the fact that you and your buddies felt super bad ass calling it black metal does not change anything


Except that is precisely what the First Wave of BM was, a loose collection of different bands with different styles, pushing the envelope in some way (be it sound, imagery, attitude or all of it) towards the BM aesthetic we know of today. It had little to do with the sounds of the Second Wave laid out in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia, apart from some carry-over with 80's Bathory & Hellhammer.



Thats the key, any band with satanic imaginery is so easily hailed as "first wave" that it has no more meaning, its like calling Motorhead and Angel Witch first wave of thrash metal or calling Kreator and Dark Angel first wave of death metal.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6561
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:53 am 
 

ancientorder wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
Very early Beherit is Hellhammer worship with the blackness increased by a notch. Black metal with very dark speed metal riffing, really. Hard to call it full-fledged black metal.

Very early Beherit is fueled by Carcass/other old grindcore and Sarcófago, and little later by Blasphemy as well (both Holocausto and Sodomatic have said Blood Upon the Altar was the most profane recording they had ever heard at that time). It should be pretty evident if you have heard recording of the last Pseudochrist (pre-Beherit) live gig which is pure grindcore.

Nope, I've just heard the first Beherit demo, which sounds like further blackened Hellhammer. It's more chaotic aswell, so the Sarcofago and Blasphemy influence makes sense, but the first thing it makes me think of is Hellhammer.

I'm definitely not a Beherit fan, their music is awesome for a little bit, but it doesn't hold up. I much prefer Impnaz demos and Archgoat, when it comes to old Finnish black.
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exi
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:30 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:08 am 
 

Moldova - Witch Desire

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grooveris
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Location: Lithuania
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:23 am 
 

So some guys here telling there was no black metal till 1988-1990 (approx.)? That sounds like denying the first wave of black metal. Or this thread (quite nice and interesting I must say) should be called ,,Black metal (as we now it today) firsts by country"?

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6561
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:30 am 
 

grooveris wrote:
So some guys here telling there was no black metal till 1988-1990 (approx.)? That sounds like denying the first wave of black metal. Or this thread (quite nice and interesting I must say) should be called ,,Black metal (as we now it today) firsts by country"?

I don't think you've read those arguments very carefully. Many people consider the first wave of black metal to be largely based on other genres of extreme metal while having varying degrees of black metal elements. At the time, having those elements differentiated the bands from thrash, death and speed metal enough to warrant their being called black metal, but since Bathory and the Norwegian second wave have further refined those black elements and separated black metal from its origins to a considerable degree, the definition of black metal would be somewhat too broad if it included bands like Venom without making any mention of their music being largely an amalgamation of several metal genres, including what became pure black metal later.

Venom is labelled as NWOBHM/speed/black metal on the archives. It's part black black, certainly, but it shouldn't be merely called black metal, like Gorgoroth or Urgehal, who sound quite different.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:23 am 
 

grooveris wrote:
So some guys here telling there was no black metal till 1988-1990 (approx.)? That sounds like denying the first wave of black metal. Or this thread (quite nice and interesting I must say) should be called ,,Black metal (as we now it today) firsts by country"?

Yes and no. The first wave of black metal consisted of bands playing other genres but trying a different approach. Bathory was a more hc version of Motörhead with occult themes, Venom was the same thing except with more NWOBHM elements and less serious, and most other first wave bands played some form of death metal which still was firmly rooted in speed metal at the time. What these bands had in common and what distinguished them was their occult or satanist themes, very low-fi sound, primitive, to-the-point songwriting (very much rooted in hardcore punk) and a kind of new way to combine all that with melody. If they were distinguished enough to qualify for a new genre is indeed debatable.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:29 am 
 

Unfortunately, a response such as this becomes annoying to type and misleading to read if certain words with certain painfully idiotic connotations are removed and replaced with euphemisms, so please bear with me. Here, the words true and pure black metal don't carry any elitistic meaning. First wave black metal rules!

Bathory was already pushing the limits of thrash and speed metal towards the black metal sound, in my opinion. Many instances of later purified black metal make use of Bathory-like riffs that do not seem at all foreign amidst the tremolo-picked minor scales and chords, so I'd count the early Bathory albums among true black metal, even though the music is still largely thrash and speed.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:03 am 
 

IanThrash wrote:
But it was not an accurate term, some people used "black metal" to describe the same bands that other fellows tagged as "Death metal" and some others as "thrash". Black metal got a definition with the nordic scene, previous meanings were too loose and un accurate to be taken into account when trying to find the pioneers of the genre.


The term "black metal" can be a genre term, or a descriptive term. As a descriptive term, it simply means Satanic topics and maybe more use of melody. As a genre term, it really only makes sense with the Nordic wave -- before that, the "black metal" bands had nothing in common and were using musical styles belonging to other genres.
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Vitross
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:09 am 
 

Every month we have this same discussion on here, about whether the so called "first-wave black metal" bands are really black metal when talking about genre. You people must know that black metal was a loose term in the 80s, bands went on calling their music black metal, because their music, style, image, titles and so on were about dark topics mostly satanism. Venom wanted to create something extreme so they took the music and satanic image and coined the term black metal in 1982. It was just a term they used for their sound since it was dark, scary, satanic, and darkness = black. It inspired a lot of new bands to create something extreme, so all these bands tried to play as ugly as they could and the image added to all that. After thrash became an official genre bands took Venom and thrash and tried to play even more extreme. Those so called first wave bands were just evil sounding thrash bands. Same goes for terms like "power metal" a Metallica demo was called that, or "death metal" there was a split in 1984 with Helloween and Hellhammer with that name. Some first wave bm bands called themselves morbid metal for example.

In my opinion the genre as we know it really formed around 1990-1992 with demos from Thorns, Immortal, Burzum and of course Darkthrone's A Blaze in the Northern Sky. There were also bands before which I consider proper black metal like Samael, Beherit, and Bathory's "Under the Sign...", but the true black metal sound which was the most important for later bands came from Norway. By the way I consider Mayhem to be first-wave bm band and therefore not the true black metal sound, but they were of the greatest importance for second wave bands in Norway.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:12 am 
 

Vitross wrote:
In my opinion the genre as we know it really formed around 1990-1992 with demos from Thorns, Immortal, Burzum and of course Darkthrone's A Blaze in the Northern Sky. There were also bands before which I consider proper black metal like Samael, Beherit, and Bathory's "Under the Sign...", but the true black metal sound which was the most important for later bands came from Norway. By the way I consider Mayhem to be first-wave bm band and therefore not the true black metal sound, but they were of the greatest importance for second wave bands in Norway.


I think this is respectable.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:19 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
before that, the "black metal" bands had nothing in common and were using musical styles belonging to other genres.

I'd say there was plenty in common between Hellhammer, Venom, Bathory, Sarcófago and so on.

This kind of semantics discussion s largely useless. People have been arguing for years whether Venom is black metal or not and no one ever agrees with black metal is.

Vitross wrote:
By the way I consider Mayhem to be first-wave bm band and therefore not the true black metal sound, but they were of the greatest importance for second wave bands in Norway.

You must be talking about Deathcrush-era Mayhem, because DMDS is a staple of the "true black metal" sound.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:29 am 
 

Vitross wrote:
Same goes for terms like "power metal" a Metallica demo was called that, or "death metal" there was a split in 1984 with Helloween and Hellhammer with that name. Some first wave bm bands called themselves morbid metal for example.
Are you serious? I could hardly think of another metal subgenre name more unfitting for Helloween.

Vitross wrote:
By the way I consider Mayhem to be first-wave bm band and therefore not the true black metal sound, but they were of the greatest importance for second wave bands in Norway.

Early on, perhaps, but surely you agree that De Mysteriis is full-fledged second wave? I'm going to have to consider you as delusional, otherwise. It's blacker than A Blaze.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:32 am 
 

Vitross wrote:
By the way I consider Mayhem to be first-wave bm band and therefore not the true black metal sound, but they were of the greatest importance for second wave bands in Norway.

You must be talking about Deathcrush-era Mayhem, because DMDS is a staple of the "true black metal" sound.[/quote]
I love DMDS, but I wouldn't call it a staple Norwegian black metal sound. It differs a lot from other Norwegian releases at that time with sound, vocals, atmosphere. Many of those songs on DMDS were written before the second wave really started. Of course Mayhem were the most important Norwegian black metal band, but the sound really came with Darkthrone, Immortal and that Thorns demo from 1991 which had staple Norwegian riffs. I don't remember who said that, but the Thorns riffs influenced many new bands, and guided them on how to create riffs.
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Vitross
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:33 am 
 

Marag wrote:
Vitross wrote:
By the way I consider Mayhem to be first-wave bm band and therefore not the true black metal sound, but they were of the greatest importance for second wave bands in Norway.

You must be talking about Deathcrush-era Mayhem, because DMDS is a staple of the "true black metal" sound.

I love DMDS, but I wouldn't call it a staple Norwegian black metal sound. It differs a lot from other Norwegian releases at that time with sound, vocals, atmosphere. Many of those songs on DMDS were written before the second wave really started. Of course Mayhem were the most important Norwegian black metal band, but the sound really came with Darkthrone, Immortal and that Thorns demo from 1991 which had staple Norwegian riffs. I don't remember who said that, but the Thorns riffs influenced many new bands, and guided them on how to create riffs.
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Last edited by Vitross on Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:33 am 
 

The portion of DMDS that was written prior to the blooming of the second wave was either later modified or simply ahead of its time. De Mysteriis is absolutely, unquestionably and entirely black metal.
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Vitross
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:39 am 
 

I agree with you, DMDS is entirely black metal, but did the sound conceived on it really evolve? Hundreds of bands in the 90s across the world were inspired by the sound of Darkthrone, Immortal, Emperor, Burzum, Satyricon albums not DMDS. It was released too late, and already when bands where taking steps after bands I mentioned before. I know there are probably bands that sound like they were directly influenced by DMDS sound, but I just can't hear it in known black metal bands. DMDS is an entirely black metal album, but not a staple album for Norwegian bm.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:40 am 
 

Vitross wrote:
that Thorns demo from 1991 which had staple Norwegian riffs. I don't remember who said that, but the Thorns riffs influenced many new bands, and guided them on how to create riffs.

Including Euronymous during DMDS. In fact, weren't many riffs on that album written by Snorre? I'm not sure on this, but similarity in style was great.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:41 am 
 

Vitross wrote:
I agree with you, DMDS is entirely black metal, but did the sound conceived on it really evolve? Hundreds of bands in the 90s across the world were inspired by the sound of Darkthrone, Immortal, Emperor, Burzum, Satyricon albums not DMDS. It was released too late, and already when bands where taking steps after bands I mentioned before. I know there are probably bands that sound like they were directly influenced by DMDS sound, but I just can't hear it in known black metal bands. DMDS is an entirely black metal album, but not a staple album for Norwegian bm.

Yes, many were audibly influenced by the music that was released on DMDS, including Infernus (Gorgoroth). Flagellant is one of the best modern bands.
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