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AsinineUsername
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:11 pm
Posts: 101
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:39 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
Zodijackyl wrote:
The form of black metal that is heavily derived from the Norwegian icons takes a similar riffing style and doesn't separate it at all no breaks, and the phrasing and arrangement removes the prominent element of thrash in Sarcofago's music, which was the frequent percussive breaks and tail-ends of sections. You could loop a single measure though, and you'd have repetitive blasting and open tremolo chords.


Exactly. It's open-phrase like classical or something like Tangerine Dream. The best example are the second albums from Immortal and fourth from Darkthrone...



Dude, please stop being so ANUSian.

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Lord Tempestuous
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:56 pm 
 

I think Averse Sefira were always the best. Most of the other bands I can't stand, Absu and Havohej are alright, I think the rest are missing the point.
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Conservationism
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Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:21 pm 
 

Averse Sefira were the most imaginative.

Absu isn't black metal.

Demoncy is amazing.

Profanatica is uneven, but quite good.

Judas Iscariot? I like Akhenaten... he's a good fellow. His other band Sarcophagus was much better.

What else?

GBK... I always thought of them more as displaced speed metal.
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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:21 pm 
 

I forgot I Shalt Become, which was quite good back in the day. Also Krieg is worth mentioning, although it's more like noise music than black metal.
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Lord Tempestuous
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:29 pm 
 

Xasthur had some good albums too I think, though they're all the same really. He does a really good continuation of the bleak atmosphere of things like Strid, early Manes and Mutiilation. Not the best but certainly worthy of a listen, I think everyone should listen to at least one of his albums if they're into Black Metal.
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Conservationism
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:30 pm 
 

Good point. Good fellow, too; really enjoyed talking to him back in the day.

Morbus 666 from Houston is quite good too. Swedish-style melodic black from Houston.
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jute
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:45 am 
 

The first few I Shalt Become albums are really fine. Despite how derivative of Burzum and Judas Iscariot some of the riffing is, they have their own unique mood.

I've always been fond of Gravewurm, who manage a strange individuality though their music is quite simple:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBOul86AdzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF6YYN7Fxjw
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AsinineUsername
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Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:11 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:20 pm 
 

Ash Pool and Ash Borer aren't mentioned enough.

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Yayattasa
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Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:09 pm 
 

Immanifest is really good, if you dig symphonic/epic black metal, that's it.
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:57 pm 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Ash Pool and Ash Borer aren't mentioned enough.

Ash Pool is something else, entirely. I haven't decided whether I like or hate it yet. Ash Borer has written really catchy riffs, but their songwriting is incredibly stretched out (=bad).
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:24 pm 
 

The American mentality is more geared toward producing Deicide and the Doors than Burzum and Tangerine Dream. We are a nation defined by its frontier, not its borders. We are at war with ourselves and always have been. There's constant tension between commercial/popular interests and those who wish to be realists. At the end of the day, popularity/commerciality (same thing) always win out. So we have a worship of the anti-hero, the bleak and the miserable, not the epic and beautiful.

For that reason, I say Demoncy is amazing.
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Civil
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Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:53 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
So, Blasphemy is not second wave black metal?


No it's not!
It's Satanic death grind in my opinion. From a strictly musical point of view, it sounds like what did Napalm Death at the same time. Just read the fucking band's page:

Genre:
Black/Death Metal



Is Marylin Manson black metal?
Is Kiss black metal?
Is Alice Cooper black metal?
They all used face paint...


This obsession with labels and putting sub-genres in everything is completely insane. It's a relatively new thing. In the 80s we called everything speed/power/thrash/death, those terms weren't as important, and, of course, genres weren't as defined. But the main thing is that to obsess with that wasn't as important. To be creative was more important. Now bands are tailor made to be this or that subgenre; "satanic death grind" or whatever. That's why there are so many mediocre bands. The vast, vast majority.

Seriously, I've seen people here saying that "there was no metal before Thrash Metal" and the such. It's a spiral towards madness to enter these arguments.

Of course Blasphemy is Black Metal. And of course Venom is pure, raw Black Metal. Always was and always will be.

If someone doesn't understand why it's useless to even try to explain.

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AsinineUsername
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Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:11 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:57 pm 
 

^ Amen, brother.

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ancientorder
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Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:38 am
Posts: 246
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:32 am 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Ash Pool and Ash Borer aren't mentioned enough.

Ash Pool is total black metal. Is propably my favourite active black metal band from US at the moment.

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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:12 am 
 

Civil wrote:
In the 80s we called everything speed/power/thrash/death, those terms weren't as important, and, of course, genres weren't as defined. But the main thing is that to obsess with that wasn't as important.


Funny, I remember the use of genre terms to be very common and advanced because it was so goddamn useful.

You like stuff like Metallica, Testament, Metal Church, Anthrax, Overkill, Megadeth? => speed metal

You like DRI, COC, Cryptic Slaughter, MDC? => thrash

You like Morbid Angel and Deicide? => death

"Power metal" wasn't in common use until the 1990s and meant speed metal bands with heavy metal flair.

Language is useful. True, it's abused. But most everything in metal is!
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:13 am 
 

USBM misunderstood? Listen to Negative Plane, about as old-school as you can get. There are plenty of other US bands in the style, you just got to look. Not everything sounds like Wolves in the Throne Room or bears the dreaded "Cascadian Black Metal" tag, and not everything is the new Panopticon album, which features a banjo.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:16 am 
 

Maybe not misunderstood. We've spent 8 pages trying to figure out why this huge country has produced five good bands and then an unending river of shit.

I'd feel bad about it except the output from Europe is even weaker these days.
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themicrulah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:18 am 
 

It's because most people from the United States think Dimmu Borgir are the end-all be-all and want to dress up in a Halloween costume!!!
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Civil
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Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:29 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
Civil wrote:
In the 80s we called everything speed/power/thrash/death, those terms weren't as important, and, of course, genres weren't as defined. But the main thing is that to obsess with that wasn't as important.


Funny, I remember the use of genre terms to be very common and advanced because it was so goddamn useful.

You like stuff like Metallica, Testament, Metal Church, Anthrax, Overkill, Megadeth? => speed metal

You like DRI, COC, Cryptic Slaughter, MDC? => thrash

You like Morbid Angel and Deicide? => death

"Power metal" wasn't in common use until the 1990s and meant speed metal bands with heavy metal flair.

Language is useful. True, it's abused. But most everything in metal is!


I remember these terms being used interchangeably for quite a few years, before the genres stuck with their current definitions, which also happened because the genres developed in different directions, sure.

It can be useful, to a degree, but like I said it can lead to paranoia and aimless discussions. And even total insanity (when people call Venom "not black metal") just because younger people can't see that the basic elements are there, were created by some pioneers in a slightly different set from the one they are used to.

Worse than that, it creates bands that start out thinking "let's make a blackened progressive grind sound with cascading moments", which pretty much rules out any spontaneous creativity and sets what is basically a fixed set of rules for the band to write. The bands that created genres weren't thinking of limiting themselves in sub sub sub genres and that's why they are creative, and invented new genres.

No interesting, innovative, ground breaking band ever started by laying out rules like that. Plenty of mediocre bands did and do, though.

I would call all the bands you named "speed metal" thrash, by the way... :-)

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:57 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
I'd feel bad about it except the output from Europe is even weaker these days.

Just because you haven't heard any doesn't mean it all sucks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:15 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Now, I think you're forgetting probably the greatest influence on extreme metal nowadays: Tom G Warrior.


Yes, that's the only point I'm gonna answer, since you're very stubborn and need to read my previous posts again. Tom G. Warrior was in my opinion one of the most inventive pioneers of extreme metal, because he took the evolution of the genre very far. The step between Motörhead and Hellhammer is huge.
Hellhammer/Celtic Frost was still thrash metal, but they definitely sounded a bit different than their German counterparts (Destruction, Sodom, Kreator and co). They still shared the same stylistical elements (skank beats, eructed semi-spoken vocals, palm-muted riffs...). The only reason why I didn't list Tom G. Warrior in black metal pioneers is that I don't consider Hellhammer/Celtic Frost as 'first wave' black metal, but as 'pre-black/death' thrash metal. If you label HH/CF as black metal, why not label it as death metal too? Stylistical elements prevail in that matter, that's what you fail (or refuse) to understand.

By the way, we don't care about how bands define their own music, if Blasphemy claimed to play 'dark drum & bass', that wouldn't change the fact that they play black/death metal with grind influences.


Abominatrix wrote:
What if I said Polish black metal was more pure than Norwegian because stuff like Graveland's Carpathian Wolves basically doesn't sound like much other metal antecedents, aside from Bathory?


At some point I wanted to quote the Polish scene as pioneers of pure 'second wave' black metal, but you have to consider the following points:
1 - early Graveland was a mix of Bathory with death/doom influences
2 - the early Polish scene was much inspired by the Norwegian 'Inner Circle' bands, thus the mix of black metal and folk music.

But I'd definitely agree if you say that Graveland and some other Polish bands were the pioneers of NSBM, since they included in their lyrics and songtitles what Vikernes mostly expressed in interviews.

In the end I'm very fond of the early Norwegian and Polish black metal scene, because they were the first ones to bring together a form of art with a political worldview. And they were the only ones in the whole world to do that as far as black metal is concerned.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:10 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Conservationism wrote:
I'd feel bad about it except the output from Europe is even weaker these days.

Just because you haven't heard any doesn't mean it all sucks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


I've heard this lame retort before, and it's always from people who listen to mediocre bands. If you had counterexamples you really thought were good, you would have listed them :)
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:25 am 
 

Coming from a guy who thinks that 'true Norwegian black metal ' is a valid subgenre, I can only hope stubborn-ness and laughable historical revisionism. CF/HH are not 'simply/only' black metal bands. They had their share of death and thrash of course and that's why they are a part of the 'first wave', but they impact and real black metal traits are undeniable. Even Fenriz and Nocturno recognize this fact, and I guess they are a bit better informed than us about what's bm is about, right?

Man, if you wanna believe that Norwegian black metal was the first 'true' black metal, so be it. I provided arguments and evidence in plenty to destroy your lil' intents of changing decades of musical evolution and sending to hell to many bands/scenes from the rest of the world. If not, read Abominatrix and Zodijackyl's posts again for further damage.

If you are totally unable to hear a different form of black metal and recognizing it as black metal, it's a cognitive problem of you. If you think Norwegian black metal is a 'pure' metal style, it's your own delusional being the problem. Gorgoroth always had the thrashy feeling and riffs (besides Bathory, they always had bands like Sarcofago, Destruction, Sodom and CF/HH as influences), Darkthrone was pure CF/HH worship; Immortal was all about Bathory worship (early and then the viking era from ATHOW onwards) with a strong Vorph' influence in the vocal department (with some death metal going on like Possessed on early material and Morbid Angel from Battles to Blizzard at least) - the Bathory influence was also VERY strong on early Enslaved, Emperor, Burzum and Mayhem (also strongly influenced by CF/HH and Sarcofago, again, first wave of black metal doing their thing). Also, notice that most of them started playing death metal and, in a way of another, it also leaked into their 'new' stuff. Keep dismissing entirely the Czech, Brazilian and Greek scenes, I guess some child will believe your words if you keep saying them endlessly. Not me, not here.

Your arguments are the same than people who got into bm 2 weeks ago claiming black metal didn't exist pre-Norwegians cause the most popular bands are Burzum, Darkthone, Mayhem and Emperor and they 'defined' bm, when it already existed. I rest my case here, since you're totally blind into the Norwegian stuff.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:44 am 
 

As I said, I won't repeat myself. Neither will I read your long answers any more.
You can check all my arguments in my previous posts.
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ThePoop
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:06 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
Maybe not misunderstood. We've spent 8 pages trying to figure out why this huge country has produced five good bands and then an unending river of shit.

Far more than 5 good bands, brah.
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AsinineUsername
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Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:11 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:41 pm 
 

THEMICRULAH wrote:
It's because most people from the United States think Dimmu Borgir are the end-all be-all and want to dress up in a Halloween costume!!!



This is rich , considering Europe's sellout music culture.

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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:19 pm 
 

ThePoop wrote:
Far more than 5 good bands, brah.


Do me the favor of listing the more than five bands you consider "good," and then give some indication of what your yardstick is.

Mine is stuff that can plausibly stack up to the first releases from Emperor, Immortal, Burzum, Enslaved, Graveland, Gorgoroth, Mayhem, Beherit, Belial, etc.
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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:32 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
ThePoop wrote:
Far more than 5 good bands, brah.


Do me the favor of listing the more than five bands you consider "good," and then give some indication of what your yardstick is.

Mine is stuff that can plausibly stack up to the first releases from Emperor, Immortal, Burzum, Enslaved, Graveland, Gorgoroth, Mayhem, Beherit, Belial, etc.



Brown Jenkins, Nocturnal Blood, Velvet Cacoon, Black Witchery and Leviathan. There's my input.

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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:36 pm 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Brown Jenkins, Nocturnal Blood, Velvet Cacoon, Black Witchery and Leviathan. There's my input.


Black Witchery are war metal, are they not?

Brown Jenkins is Umesh Amtey's band, also in the Ash Eaters. Also still the subject of a bad trader report from a good trader on USENET.

I haven't heard Nocturnal Blood. I'll look it up.

However, Leviathan... do you honestly think this band can plausibly go toe to toe with the first Immortal, Bathory, Burzum, et al albums?
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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:43 pm 
 

Dude, Tenth Sublevel is as dark, if not more, than Immortal, mostly because of the variation in tempo.

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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:44 pm 
 

What I mean is, it's hard for fast music to be very dark. Just look at Black Sabbath.

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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:46 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
AsinineUsername wrote:
Brown Jenkins, Nocturnal Blood, Velvet Cacoon, Black Witchery and Leviathan. There's my input.


Black Witchery are war metal, are they not?

Brown Jenkins is Umesh Amtey's band, also in the Ash Eaters. Also still the subject of a bad trader report from a good trader on USENET.

I haven't heard Nocturnal Blood. I'll look it up.

However, Leviathan... do you honestly think this band can plausibly go toe to toe with the first Immortal, Bathory, Burzum, et al albums?



As for Umesh, I've talked to him and he seemed like a nice guy. But it doesn't matter if he IS a dick, most people in bands are.

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ThePoop
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:55 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
However, Leviathan... do you honestly think this band can plausibly go toe to toe with the first Immortal, Bathory, Burzum, et al albums?

Oh absolutely. I'll take Tentacles of Whorror and Massive Conspiracy over the first few Bathory and Burzum albums. I love both those projects and they have impacted me as much as any fan of black metal, but Leviathan really is that good.

And I've already mentioned bands from the US that I find to be phenomenal on a earlier post. However I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're going to highly disagree. It's all subjective, my man.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:42 am 
 

ThePoop wrote:
It's all subjective, my man.


It all is, and yet, nothing is.

I can recognize quality in bands I don't like.

And the converse, of course...
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Civil
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Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:58 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:27 am 
 

KFD wrote:
As I said, I won't repeat myself. Neither will I read your long answers any more.
You can check all my arguments in my previous posts.


Kveldulfr is right and you are wrong. To not understand that black metal is actually a quite varied genre, going from, yes, Venom, without whom nothing would have happened, to the Norwegian scene indicates a very limited capacity of understanding genres, historical progression and the invention of basic elements for songwritting.

It's no accident that the Scandinavian bands mention, cover and reference the first wave bands all the time. One thing led to the other quite organically. And I suppose many "revival" bands nowadays try to emulate the first bands. Still being black metal.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:19 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
I've heard this lame retort before, and it's always from people who listen to mediocre bands. If you had counterexamples you really thought were good, you would have listed them :)

If you were serious about looking for great new bands to listen to, you wouldn't reply in such a condescending manner. It's not a lame retort, it's the knowledge of someone who actually cares about the genre and actively searches new bands. Pearls for swine, but here's one 2010 release just to prove my point. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnRdRZvnJGU

There's the black metal help thread for neophytes to ask for recommendations, but obviously, people there won't respond well if you keep up that stuck-up attitude.
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Necessitarian
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:40 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
ThePoop wrote:
It's all subjective, my man.


It all is, and yet, nothing is.

I can recognize quality in bands I don't like.

And the converse, of course...

No, it all is. Full stop.

You not fully liking or disliking a band doesn't mean anything.

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KFD
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:00 am 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Brown Jenkins, Nocturnal Blood, Velvet Cacoon, Black Witchery and Leviathan. There's my input.


Velvet Cacoon? Isn't half of his discography fake?
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:02 am 
 

Necessitarian wrote:
You not fully liking or disliking a band doesn't mean anything.


Neither does your liking the idea that it is subjective.
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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:36 am 
 

KFD wrote:
AsinineUsername wrote:
Brown Jenkins, Nocturnal Blood, Velvet Cacoon, Black Witchery and Leviathan. There's my input.


Velvet Cacoon? Isn't half of his discography fake?



Nah, that was one demo, the stuff on Geniveve and Dextronaut etc. are all real.

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