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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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Location: Chile
PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:00 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
So, Worship Him is not black metal or 'stopped' being black metal at some point? Bathory pre-Hammerheart is not black metal, especifically Under the Sign of the Black Mark, for example? I mean, am I really reading that bullshit?

Man, see that 'pure' black metal doesn't exist. Darkthrone who might be considered for some 'pure black metal' was nothing more than an exercise of Celtic Frost/Hellhammer styled riffing with their own twist. It's not like Fenriz invented THE way for black metal from scratch (and the band itself recognizes this fact, btw).

I couldn't have said what I meant much clearer. You're free to interpret it in any ridiculous way you want, but I suggest that you should read what I said more carefully and not simply make reactionary strawmen. Early Bathory is pretty much black metal, although many of the riffs are different from what the genre later developed into. It stands as a watershed between proto-black metal and the second wave. There are bands whose music is more pure black metal than Bathory's, but that doesn't mean it isn't black metal.


That's my point. Maybe some of the riffs are different from what the genre stands for today, just like Possessed's riffs or Death's SBG's riffs are different from modern death metal.

Ilwhyan wrote:
Of course I know of Hellenic black metal. It must not be hard to guess what of it I consider to be pure black metal. What I remember of the first Varathron album is based on dark heavy metal riffs with little black metal in them, whereas something like Nocternity is pretty pitch black despite having much in common with earlier Greek bands. Hellenic black metal is often described as what black metal would be if it was rooted in Merciful Fate's brand of heavy metal as opposed to death, thrash and other extremes of metal. Some of it is undoubtedly very black, some of it only slightly so. It doesn't serve any point to bring up these bands.


That's what I said on my reply to KFD. Greek black metal didn't came directly from Bathory as Norwegian mostly did, but from an array of stuff, MF, Samael, CF/HH. It's black metal? yes. It's like Norwegian bm? not at all. Are both still bm being very different from each other? hell yes.

Ilwhyan wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
Also, black metal is still thrashy in many other countries. Does that fact make Blasphemy 'less' black metal than, say, Gorgoroth? absolutely not! those are different styles of black metal, cause like it or not, there's no unique or true form of black metal. If we were to call 'true' to some form of black metal, it makes way more sense to mention the earliest black metal bands than the ones who spawned years after evolving from the 'quintessential' black metal style; again: Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bathory, maybe early Samael, Sarcófago, Blasphemy and so on. If not, it's like today we call true death metal to Nile or Necrophagist instead Morbid Angel or Death.
Thrash metal elements need not be excised for the band to be black metal. You wouldn't think me to consider that a given only if you thought I was somehow insane. There are death metal bands who play the occasional black metal riff or an entire black metal song, after all. According to that same logic, we can see the small black elements in Venom, for example, merely as something that, while making them unique, hardly warranted their labelling as black metal. The fact that these smatterings of black in their music would inspire later musicians to write music solely based on those elements is technically inconsequential. In other words, what inspired what doesn't have the greatest relevance when seeking to give bands and their music the most appropriate, descriptive label. I looked at Venom's genre tag on metal-archives, and I think it gives a fairly accurate idea of what the music sounds like. I might've put thrash in there, but NWOBHM/speed/black metal is fine... Even if the mention of black is halfway there just to give the band a nod for coining the term and being an influence in terms of aesthetics and imagery. After all, the riffing is mostly just sinister thrash and speed metal.

Yep, I consider Blasphemy to be less black metal than Gorgoroth. The latter also has thrash-like riffing, mostly inspired by Slayer, but it's harder to connect with thrash due to the utter prevalence of black metal in their sound. The logic is really easy to understand. Consider, for example, a hypothetical band that is half thrash and half black metal, thus black/thrash. Taking away all the thrash metal elements of their sound and replacing them with elements similar to what make half of their sound black metal would obviously make them entirely black metal (and zero thrash), hence pure black metal.


I share the overall view, but thing is that I see no one denying Blasphemy being primarily a black metal band. If it's not 'pure' black metal is a matter of personal choice from the band, but they are predominantly black metal. I've just checked the tag in MA, it says 'black metal'. You can say they have a strong thrash feeling when reviewing it or recommend them, but if you ask to any basically initiated into bm, will tell you 'black metal'.

Ilwhyan wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
If you say 'black/thrash' is cause you recognize being Absu more black metal than a mere thrash band. I used the Aura Noir comparison cause both bands, being very different, mix both styles but the black metal is at least a bit more present than thrash. So, it's not wrong to call Absu black metal.
Yeah, it's really not. It would be more accurate to call it black/thrash or something, but I won't really jump at anyone's throat who calls them merely black metal. Calling Venom or such merely black metal is entirely wrong. Even though the band influenced the genre greatly, musically it would amount to the same thing as labelling Cult of Luna as merely hardcore punk.


That's my point.

Venom was influential for extreme metal in general and I see their black metal tag more given for their undeniable influence over the style than for playing it 'for real'. We are on the same boat there.
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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:10 am 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
If you mean today's Norwegian bands, then I would have to say no, if simply because I can't think of any! The classics, though, certainly, for shaping this particular (and very popular) variant of black metal. I always thought that for example Samael, Mystifier and ROtting Christ were more satanic than most of the Norse bands though...

Still staying off topic I have to agree with this. Urgehal was the best and most relevant Norwegian band that was still pushing and progressing the style IMO, but then Trond died. I hear they had one more album written that is still being worked on by Enzifer, but it will never be the same. It will also be interesting to see how the next Gorgoroth album turns out if their ever is one. Also USBM something something blah blah blah mashed potatoes.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:32 am 
 

Yeah, there are still some good bands from Norway of course (thinking mostly of Faustcoven here) but I guess their influence on any new/developing scene would be minimal, if any.

Anyway, this is all very straightforward. Black metal has many faces from all over the world, but the Norwegian variant, which takes directly from Bathory, who take directly from Venom (although the most unique album in the discography, Under the SIgn of the Black Mark, had the biggest influence on later black metal) ended up being the most popular and imitated. While the early helenic scene is one of my favourites (as is black metal from the Czech Republic), those bands did not spawn a legion of clones and imitators. It got to the point where if people said "This banddsounds like Darkthrone c. 1992" or "This one sounds like Immortal in the Pure HOlocaust era", it became a little hard to care, whereas a reference to THy Mighty Contract or His Majesty at the Swamp or Ritual got me (and others, I guess) all excited and thrilled at the prospect of a black metal band exploring reasonably underdeveloped territory. As I said, I'm a fan of the Norse sound too, but I think it's harder to find bands who play that style who stand out from the crowd, particularly in today's climate.

Antoine, it looks like I and others have really run out of things to say about uSBM as a whole, so unless you want to close the topic, I certainly have no objections to us all moving on to other, semi-related matters.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:58 am 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Yeah, there are still some good bands from Norway of course (thinking mostly of Faustcoven here) but I guess their influence on any new/developing scene would be minimal, if any.

Anyway, this is all very straightforward. Black metal has many faces from all over the world, but the Norwegian variant, which takes directly from Bathory, who take directly from Venom (although the most unique album in the discography, Under the SIgn of the Black Mark, had the biggest influence on later black metal) ended up being the most popular and imitated. While the early helenic scene is one of my favourites (as is black metal from the Czech Republic), those bands did not spawn a legion of clones and imitators. It got to the point where if people said "This banddsounds like Darkthrone c. 1992" or "This one sounds like Immortal in the Pure HOlocaust era", it became a little hard to care, whereas a reference to THy Mighty Contract or His Majesty at the Swamp or Ritual got me (and others, I guess) all excited and thrilled at the prospect of a black metal band exploring reasonably underdeveloped territory. As I said, I'm a fan of the Norse sound too, but I think it's harder to find bands who play that style who stand out from the crowd, particularly in today's climate.


Totally agree and that's a good way to resume my own posture about it.

(Btw and probably off-topic: I've been writing material for a future project of mine, with a strong Hellenic feeling. I have like enough material for an Ep, but I'll leave the tracks age a bit more and write another pieces to finally jump the shark).

Abominatrix wrote:
Antoine, it looks like I and others have really run out of things to say about uSBM as a whole, so unless you want to close the topic, I certainly have no objections to us all moving on to other, semi-related matters.


I think it would be great to have another thread to talk about the evolution of black metal, the 'waves' and stuff. I guess it'll be great to grasp how different people from different countries and backgrounds see black metal in general terms.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:42 pm 
 

a bunch of people wrote:
Norway is irrelevant to black metal today.


False.

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Sarath/20009

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Dar ... 3540347791

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Min_Kniv/107293

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Mare/66809

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Apt ... emon/45799

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Saligia/113901

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Helvetespine/108467

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Hinsidig/3540288980

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Taake/370

http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/D%C ... 3540274142
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:10 pm 
 

Vemod are awesome, too!
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Rild
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:11 pm 
 

In regards to USBM, hail Grand Belial's Key for being the funniest black metal band. I laugh at the chorus of "Pimps of Genneserat" every time.
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Marag
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Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:37 pm 
 

Rild wrote:
In regards to USBM, hail Grand Belial's Key for being the funniest black metal band. I laugh at the chorus of "Pimps of Genneserat" every time.

Yeah. For some reason their album covers with the crudely edited corpse-paint on Jesus always makes me laugh.

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KFD
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
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Location: France
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:07 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
So, Blasphemy is not second wave black metal?


No it's not!
It's Satanic death grind in my opinion. From a strictly musical point of view, it sounds like what did Napalm Death at the same time. Just read the fucking band's page:

Genre:
Black/Death Metal



Is Marylin Manson black metal?
Is Kiss black metal?
Is Alice Cooper black metal?
They all used face paint...

Image
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KFD
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:23 am 
 

By the way, Beherit and Impaled Nazarene also played the same style (black/death with punk/hardcore/grind influences) as Blasphemy in the beginning. There was no other extreme metal Finnish band in the 1980's. Anyone can check with the 'advanced search' option.

There was only one death metal in Denmark:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Samhain/26803

So I can claim that except Bathory, Norwegians were the only black metal pioneers in Scandinavia.

In short, here are the 4 main guitarists who invented black metal as we know it today:
- Quorthon
- Euronymous
- Snorre W. Ruch (Thorns)
- Varg Vikernes (to a lesser extent, since we don't know how much influence Euronymous had on him).

All the others are more or less talented followers. And yes I know, Celtic Frost and Venom (and German thrash bands) had a huge impact on black metal, but they were not black metal.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:45 am 
 

I'm dead serious, I never thought that I would ever, ever say this, but I completely agree with KFD.

*shudder*
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Kveldulfr
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Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:53 am 
 

This is like talking with a wall.

KFD wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
So, Blasphemy is not second wave black metal?


No it's not!
It's Satanic death grind in my opinion. From a strictly musical point of view, it sounds like what did Napalm Death at the same time. Just read the fucking band's page:

Genre:
Black/Death Metal



This is literally the first time in my 25 (aprox) years listening metal that I hear such a description. I haven't checked every page of the bands I've been talking about before, so it's also the first time I see the death tag on Blasphemy. I don't hear it and back in the day no one called Blasphemy death metal at all. Not even the band considers themselves as a black/death hybrid.

I did a bit of research just to confirm the stuff I've been reading and listening from decades past, and I've got easily 2 links which pretty much are in line with the most common concept of the band:

Discogs: "Canada's Blasphemy are one of the original black metal bands of the "second wave of black metal" and innovators of "war metal". That's what I've heard from the very beginning of the 90's (war metal itself didn't exist as a concept, methinks). Last.fm also lists Blasphemy as 'black metal'.

An interview with the guys:

http://www.fmp666.com/moonlight/blasphemy.html

76)Overall, would you say Blasphemy is Black Metal, Black/Death or something
else?

3 Black Hearts + Black Winds wrote:

Only Black Metal.


KFD wrote:
Is Marylin Manson black metal?
Is Kiss black metal?
Is Alice Cooper black metal?
They all used face paint...



This is just dumb, man.

KFD wrote:
By the way, Beherit and Impaled Nazarene also played the same style (black/death with punk/hardcore/grind influences) as Blasphemy in the beginning. There was no other extreme metal Finnish band in the 1980's. Anyone can check with the 'advanced search' option.

There was only one death metal in Denmark:
http://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Samhain/26803

So I can claim that except Bathory, Norwegians were the only black metal pioneers in Scandinavia.


Get it? in Scandinavia your argument is valid, but since black metal was born and developed in many countries and different continents, you're simply forgetting A LOT OF STUFF.

KFD wrote:
In short, here are the 4 main guitarists who invented black metal as we know it today:
- Quorthon
- Euronymous
- Snorre W. Ruch (Thorns)
- Varg Vikernes (to a lesser extent, since we don't know how much influence Euronymous had on him).

All the others are more or less talented followers. And yes I know, Celtic Frost and Venom (and German thrash bands) had a huge impact on black metal, but they were not black metal.


So, what's the black metal 'we know today'? only the norwegian variant? cause I know a couple of more 'variants' of black metal who were developed earlier or at the same time as the norwegians.

Now, I think you're forgetting probably the greatest influence on extreme metal nowadays: Tom G Warrior. He (who is responsible for the 90% of the HH/CF material according to him) alone provided the foundations for every other band associated to black metal, including Bathory. See that Darkthrone, whose trilogy is considered as one of the most 'pure' statements of black metal, was comprised by HH/CF riffing thru and thru, as both Warrior has stated and Darkthrone themselves have recognized.

See that the greeks were influenced by Mercyful Fate, CF, HH and Samael to create their own brand of black metal, just like the Southamerican bands picked the same influences + thrash to make their own style of black metal. Samael themselves were a 'more evil' version of HH/CF, but they refined a bit the formula to deliver a darker black metal version of them.

Also, I used the advanced search with the following data:

genre: black metal
country: any
years of formation :1970-1986
results: 81.

Now, from those, there are tons of black/thrash stuff and of course some of the original influences like Venom, but there are several 'pure' black metal bands too! so, why did I use 1986 as limit? just to erase every chance of quoting any Norwegian as influence in the formation of those bands (since Deathcrush was released in 1987). Even in Chile existed a black metal band without Norwegian interference! (Bloody Cross). Brazilians Vulcano were playing extreme metal and existed even before Hellhammer!

So, it looks like black metal existed before Norwegians, right? it's also pretty obvious that black metal as a subgenre also developed independently of Euro, Snorre and Varg, as you can check the releases and formation of bands from Greece, Czech Republic, Hungary, Brazil, Chile, Peru, among others.

What I think you don't understand is that black metal had a starting point on the called 'first wave' and from there black metal rised in independent ways all around the world. Now, the Norwegians became the most famous and imitated from the bunch, but that doesn't mean that black metal didn't existed in unique ways in other places and the most obvious and important thing: those 'scenes' and styles are just as black metal as any other scandinavian release, just a different perspective.
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Abominatrix
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:34 am 
 

I agree with Kveldulv of course.

About Norwegian bands drawing influence from bands other than Bathory, hellhammer and Frost....well now, let's take Immortal for example. People who saw them live around 1996 or so playing songs from Battles and Pure HOlocaust kept saying "They sound like morbid Angel!" At the time I was new to Immortal and I simply didnt' believe. Then Blizzard Beasts came out and suddenly, well, it was obvious; they did in fact sound like Morbid Angel, but the production on those earlier albums gave the band more of a unique character than they would otherwise have.

There's no doubt that those three NOrwegian guitarists KFD mentioned have been vastly influential. But this seems like a pretty pointless argument to me. Where does the line of purity begin? Does it even exist? Surely it is rather arbitrary? What if I said Polish black metal was more pure than Norwegian because stuff like Graveland's Carpathian Wolves basically doesn't sound like much other metal antecedents, aside from Bathory?

Anyway, I'm definitely interested in checking out those Norse bands John posted...always up for something good in that particular tradition...
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:48 am 
 

Abominatrix wrote:

There's no doubt that those three NOrwegian guitarists KFD mentioned have been vastly influential. But this seems like a pretty pointless argument to me. Where does the line of purity begin? Does it even exist? Surely it is rather arbitrary? What if I said Polish black metal was more pure than Norwegian because stuff like Graveland's Carpathian Wolves basically doesn't sound like much other metal antecedents, aside from Bathory?



In fact, I can say that Hellenic black metal is as pure, it not 'more' than Norwegian black metal, since its origins harkens back to even earlier bands like Mercyful Fate. Varathron didn't show up any Bathory influence on their early days as Norwegians did, so instead getting the logical continuation of Bathory as bridge from the first to the second wave, Greeks just jumped directly from the earliest incarnations/influences of black metal to their own unique sound. If I were to nitpick more, I would say that Greeks evolved faster and more directly than Norwegians.

About the Morbid Angel stuff, If I remember they dedicated their early works to speed, death and black metal fans. Demos, Abominations and Altars were called black metal back in the day afaik.
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Sick6Six
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:01 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:53 am 
 

KFD wrote:

In short, here are the 4 main guitarists who invented black metal as we know it today:
- Quorthon
- Euronymous
- Snorre W. Ruch (Thorns)
- Varg Vikernes (to a lesser extent, since we don't know how much influence Euronymous had on him).


supposedly "Euronymous of Mayhem is credited for getting Abbath Doom Occulta into black metal and as a result, Abbath getting Varg Vikernes (Burzum) into black metal as well." Maybe someone should ask Abbath and Varg about this
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:01 am 
 

Sick6Six wrote:
supposedly "Euronymous of Mayhem is credited for getting Abbath Doom Occulta into black metal and as a result, Abbath getting Varg Vikernes (Burzum) into black metal as well." Maybe someone should ask Abbath and Varg about this


Both were playing death metal in the late 80's/early 90's. Snorre was a friend of Varg anyway and Euro did influenced the guys to play black metal so it's probably true, since both Snorre and Euro developed the norwegian styled black metal (excepting Darkthrone which in Nocturno's words they did their thing totally on their own taking as main influence CF/HH directly).
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tomcat_ha
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:43 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
I agree with Kveldulv of course.

About Norwegian bands drawing influence from bands other than Bathory, hellhammer and Frost....well now, let's take Immortal for example. People who saw them live around 1996 or so playing songs from Battles and Pure HOlocaust kept saying "They sound like morbid Angel!" At the time I was new to Immortal and I simply didnt' believe. Then Blizzard Beasts came out and suddenly, well, it was obvious; they did in fact sound like Morbid Angel, but the production on those earlier albums gave the band more of a unique character than they would otherwise have.


I had a similar experience when seeing Tulus live last winter. They played a Obituary cover and i suddenly noticed what an obvious influence Obituary were on Tulus and Khold. I also started to question how much bm parts usually credited to HH/CF actually come from Obituary? Now its clearly obvious that HH/CF are the biggest influences on the sound of Obituary but i think that a lot of tremolo picked riffs in Obituary are closer to a lot of bm bands than the HH/CF stuff it comes from originally.

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Agga40
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Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:32 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:08 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
I agree with Kveldulv of course.

About Norwegian bands drawing influence from bands other than Bathory, hellhammer and Frost....well now, let's take Immortal for example. People who saw them live around 1996 or so playing songs from Battles and Pure HOlocaust kept saying "They sound like morbid Angel!" At the time I was new to Immortal and I simply didnt' believe. Then Blizzard Beasts came out and suddenly, well, it was obvious; they did in fact sound like Morbid Angel, but the production on those earlier albums gave the band more of a unique character than they would otherwise have.


I never realized this until you just posted it. As soon as I read it, I sat back thought about it and realized "holy fuck he's right!". Altars would be the biggest influence in my opinion.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:33 pm 
 

It proves that Immortal aren't pure BM, at least.
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HellishHound
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Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:37 am
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:47 pm 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
It proves that Immortal aren't pure BM, at least.


This may be the alcohol, but I don't understand why people say one band or another is not "pure" bm because they have influences outside of black metal. I mean just look at the main bands in the norwegian scene. Darkthrone sounds nothing like Mayhem, Mayhem sounds nothing like Immortal, Immortal sounds nothing like Emperor, Emperor sounds nothing like Burzum, etc., etc. This doesn't prove Immortal isn't pure BM, their is no such thing pure BM. Black metal at it's earliest moment has always been fragmented. Their is no distinct black metal sound. Yes their are black metal tropes, that are applied to every (or most) black metal bands, but their is no such thing as the definitive black metal band. If their was it certainly wouldn't be second wave norwegian black metal (as popular as it is). That title would have to belong to earlier bands (Bathory, Hellhammer, etc.) but nobody considers those pure black metal, just proto-black or first wave black metal. No offense, John Sunlight, you were one of the first guys to welcome me to this board, and I value your opinion highly. But, I will never...NEVER...understand this "pure" black metal arguement. Black metal has never stuck to norms, it has evolved and changed with every band to pick up the guitar and shred tremolo riffs for satan, odin, etc. till their fucking hands bled. I don't think their is such a thing as "pure" black metal, just different variations/perspectives filtered through culture and personal ideas of black metal.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 3:41 am 
 

Would you or would you not agree that Taake is more of a black metal band than Destroyer 666?

I think it's great that there was such a rich diversity of style within the confines of the second wave alone, as any number of black metal bands today can trace their influence back to a handful of second wave bands and say that they're using some combination of properties from those bands yet still have their "own" sound because they'll combine their influences and play the result in a unique way. I don't really see how you can understand that as being the same thing as a blatant hybrid band that takes some second wave black metal elements and combines them with blatantly non-black metal elements.

Are Behemoth just as black metal today as they were in the beginning?
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HellishHound
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:23 am 
 

I probably shouldn't have been posting while drinking haha but I really didn't mean to phrase in such a way as to mean hybrid bands. Taake is more black metal than D666 and yes old Behemoth was more black metal. I just meant I don't understand the argument when it comes down to full on black metal bands, not blatant hybrid bands, of whether or not they're pure black metal. I mean come on, whether immortal has MA influence or not, theyre fucking black metal through and through. Same as with bands like beherit, blasphemy, varathron, rotting Christ. It may not sound like Norwegian second wave bm but fuck it's black metal, just a different variation.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:59 am 
 

HellishHound, surely you realise that there's more to it than merely either being a hybrid or being entirely full-fledged black metal? It's not either 50% or 100%.
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HellishHound
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:23 pm 
 

Yes, I do. I keep fucking phrasing my words wrong. I'm really not trying to look like an idiot here guys but this hangover is kinda kicking my ass. I, just get tired of the argument over which band is more pure black metal when to me it's all black metal even when it's got some outside influences (you can have influences without being a hybrid band). Darkthrone had motorhead influences, did that make their black metal albums any less black metal? Hell no.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:33 pm 
 

It's all a matter of degree. At some point when outside influences become prominent enough, the music needs to be labelled something else. I feel that with some old Greek black metal, black/heavy metal would sometimes be a more fitting label, for example.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:39 pm 
 

Agga40 wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
I agree with Kveldulv of course.

About Norwegian bands drawing influence from bands other than Bathory, hellhammer and Frost....well now, let's take Immortal for example. People who saw them live around 1996 or so playing songs from Battles and Pure HOlocaust kept saying "They sound like morbid Angel!" At the time I was new to Immortal and I simply didnt' believe. Then Blizzard Beasts came out and suddenly, well, it was obvious; they did in fact sound like Morbid Angel, but the production on those earlier albums gave the band more of a unique character than they would otherwise have.


I never realized this until you just posted it. As soon as I read it, I sat back thought about it and realized "holy fuck he's right!". Altars would be the biggest influence in my opinion.


Yeah definitely, and it all pretty much is thrown right into the limelight on Blizzard Beasts, which sounds like Altars' moodier Norwegian half-brother.
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HellishHound
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:58 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
It's all a matter of degree. At some point when outside influences become prominent enough, the music needs to be labelled something else. I feel that with some old Greek black metal, black/heavy metal would sometimes be a more fitting label, for example.


Actually, I totally agree with you man. that's really what I was trying to say. I was really just meaning the bands that get argued as being hybrid when really they have slight influences.
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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 5:07 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
I fully agree with Ilwyhan.


AsinineUsername wrote:


What the fuck is this horrible noise/indus-wannabe cheap shit?
Is that considered as a "cult band"?



I like to call it blackened noise grind.

But of course, you probably don't like noise, this your negative reaction.

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:53 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
It's all a matter of degree. At some point when outside influences become prominent enough, the music needs to be labelled something else. I feel that with some old Greek black metal, black/heavy metal would sometimes be a more fitting label, for example.


Some riffs on non serviam by rotting christ sound like uspm riffs of all things. But then again that makes me wonder the following. Norwegian black metal's primal pre black metal influence is thrash. Is a band less black metal if they instead have an other genre as the prime pre black metal influence?

For the record, i dont hear any real thrash elements in hellhammer. Celtic Frost has a few thrashy songs but most of their influential ideas sound to me like proto death/black and not like thrash at all. I feel similar about a lot of early Bathory.

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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:21 am 
 

Marag wrote:
Rild wrote:
In regards to USBM, hail Grand Belial's Key for being the funniest black metal band. I laugh at the chorus of "Pimps of Genneserat" every time.

Yeah. For some reason their album covers with the crudely edited corpse-paint on Jesus always makes me laugh.



Didn't they get that from Profanatica ?

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Nameless_Rites
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:30 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
From the period of the early nineties USBM has been derided as being mediocre to our European contemporaries who birthed the genre, and while most of my generation wasn't able to make qualitative judgements about bands- is this necessarily so? Bands such as Absu, Judas Iscariot, Blasphemy, Grand Belial's Key, Profanatica, and Weaking all offered unique takes on the music, and even more recently albeit not without certain verdicts on its fidelity- Cascadian bm has proved that North America can offer the metal world something. For the older forum denizens, has the disregard for a slew of mediocre "Darkthrone clones" from those days been an assessment that is adequately justified? Or have you revisited albums for the aforementioned bands that make you question your prior judgement in those days, are you even bothered to listen to newer material in the hopes of forever laying quality of black metal bands from North America to rest? Is the quality and sheer diversity of black metal from Europe and elsewhere just more than what is/was offered here?


The only USBM band who ever reached legendary status IMO are Absu - although they're not in the Burzum/Darkthrone/Bathory/Emperor league, they're comparable with stuff like Impaled Nazarene and Gorgoroth in quality. The US scene is known for lots of "Raw, kult evil" crap with 2 chords and Cascadian bands who are dull (and mostly comprised of closet indie rock musicians slinging the same tired old crap in a "new genre").

Let's be honest, although good simple black metal isn't easy to make - USBM like Demoncy, Judas Iscariot etc requires nowhere near the level of musical education and commitment that something like "In The Nightside Eclsipse" required to create. It's not a question of how "Real" the bands are, the songwriting is just not there in most cases. Although the same is true for most current European BM as well.

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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:53 am 
 

If you say so they're miles ahead of Burzum in terms of songwriting ability, perhaps not in influence but Burzum is an amateur compared to the collective musical ability in any Absu album. I'd say they're even better musicians than Gorgoroth who tanked after Destroyer and started to modernize, at least Absu are still staying true to their roots without dumbing their riffs down and overproducing their albums.

Quote:
known for lots of "Raw, kult evil" crap with 2 chords


Sounds a lot like early Burzum

Quote:
Let's be honest, although good simple black metal isn't easy to make - USBM like Demoncy, Judas Iscariot etc requires nowhere near the level of musical education and commitment that something like "In The Nightside Eclsipse" required to create


You kind of contradict your first statement about a comparison from Absu to most of the famous Nordic bands. Absu's music more complex than either Gorgoroth, Burzum, and early Bathory.
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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:55 am 
 

Nameless_Rites wrote:
Veracs wrote:
From the period of the early nineties USBM has been derided as being mediocre to our European contemporaries who birthed the genre, and while most of my generation wasn't able to make qualitative judgements about bands- is this necessarily so? Bands such as Absu, Judas Iscariot, Blasphemy, Grand Belial's Key, Profanatica, and Weaking all offered unique takes on the music, and even more recently albeit not without certain verdicts on its fidelity- Cascadian bm has proved that North America can offer the metal world something. For the older forum denizens, has the disregard for a slew of mediocre "Darkthrone clones" from those days been an assessment that is adequately justified? Or have you revisited albums for the aforementioned bands that make you question your prior judgement in those days, are you even bothered to listen to newer material in the hopes of forever laying quality of black metal bands from North America to rest? Is the quality and sheer diversity of black metal from Europe and elsewhere just more than what is/was offered here?


The only USBM band who ever reached legendary status IMO are Absu - although they're not in the Burzum/Darkthrone/Bathory/Emperor league, they're comparable with stuff like Impaled Nazarene and Gorgoroth in quality. The US scene is known for lots of "Raw, kult evil" crap with 2 chords and Cascadian bands who are dull (and mostly comprised of closet indie rock musicians slinging the same tired old crap in a "new genre").

Let's be honest, although good simple black metal isn't easy to make - USBM like Demoncy, Judas Iscariot etc requires nowhere near the level of musical education and commitment that something like "In The Nightside Eclsipse" required to create. It's not a question of how "Real" the bands are, the songwriting is just not there in most cases. Although the same is true for most current European BM as well.



ITNSE is largely long-winded bullshit. Ildjarn would have been a better example.

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ancientorder
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:09 am 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Didn't they get that from Profanatica ?

Might have been an influence. But all those GBK corpsepainted Christ mock-ups originate from Jehovas Witnesses' Watchtower magazines. Just edited of course...

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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:46 am 
 

Nameless_Rites wrote:
Let's be honest, although good simple black metal isn't easy to make - USBM like Demoncy, Judas Iscariot etc requires nowhere near the level of musical education and commitment that something like "In The Nightside Eclsipse" required to create. It's not a question of how "Real" the bands are, the songwriting is just not there in most cases. Although the same is true for most current European BM as well.


Wasn't Isahn like 18 when nightside was made? Adding fancy keyboards to your music doesn't require any more musical education than Judas iscariot. Emperor incorporated more talented musicianship and songwriting on the later albums and they got shit for it.

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AsinineUsername
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:38 am 
 

ancientorder wrote:
AsinineUsername wrote:
Didn't they get that from Profanatica ?

Might have been an influence. But all those GBK corpsepainted Christ mock-ups originate from Jehovas Witnesses' Watchtower magazines. Just edited of course...



Always thought those were badass.

And as for "the evolution" of black metal, how come no one's mentioned Masters Hammer, Morturary Drape or Death SS?

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Agga40
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:48 am 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:




And as for "the evolution" of black metal, how come no one's mentioned Masters Hammer, Morturary Drape or Death SS?

Fuck if Mortuary Drape wouldve turned up their guitars in the mix who knows how fuckin amazing their albums wouldve been. ESPECIALLY on Secret Sudaria. Those turned down guitars ruin what would be a bad ass album in my opinion.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:27 pm 
 

KFD wrote:
It's Satanic death grind in my opinion. From a strictly musical point of view, it sounds like what did Napalm Death at the same time.


I think this can be supported. The music has most in common with grindcore. Sounds a lot like Blood.
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Zodijackyl
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:26 am 
 

Sarcofago showed what would become the defining standards of black metal, in one form, in 1987. The riffing was a blur of tremolo-picked chords, ringing open rather than palm muted - structured more like thrash, but it also seemed that the performance on INRI was pushing the limits of their proficiency so even if they had intended to play something that resembled the string-skipping and palm-muted chugging of thrash, it came out differently. The percussive punctuation comes from the flawless performance of the drum machine :lol: which blasts pretty much all the time. The structures and phrases are not black metal though - the tremolo bursts are short and separated by fills and it's rarely more than a few measures until the next percussive burst, which often did include palm muting. The form of black metal that is heavily derived from the Norwegian icons takes a similar riffing style and doesn't separate it at all no breaks, and the phrasing and arrangement removes the prominent element of thrash in Sarcofago's music, which was the frequent percussive breaks and tail-ends of sections. You could loop a single measure though, and you'd have repetitive blasting and open tremolo chords.

Another early black metal band whose style wasn't completely developed and packaged as Norwegian BM was Bestial Summoning. Their production was rough and lacked the atmosphere of Pytten's Grieghallen productions, and the band was very loose/sloppy. There's not much like "The Dark War Has Begun" from when it was released though - it was out in April 1992, a few months after Darkthrone's "Blaze" and a few before Immortal's debut. They seemed to be geographically removed peers of the Norwegians though, and they split in 1992. Their album is dedicated to Dead, so there certainly was some influence/exchange there.

Similar styles weren't invented by three or four people, though they were certainly popularized by a few who had a huge publicity boost due to their scene's infamy.

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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:09 am 
 

Zodijackyl wrote:
The form of black metal that is heavily derived from the Norwegian icons takes a similar riffing style and doesn't separate it at all no breaks, and the phrasing and arrangement removes the prominent element of thrash in Sarcofago's music, which was the frequent percussive breaks and tail-ends of sections. You could loop a single measure though, and you'd have repetitive blasting and open tremolo chords.


Exactly. It's open-phrase like classical or something like Tangerine Dream. The best example are the second albums from Immortal and fourth from Darkthrone...
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