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Lagartija
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Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:27 am
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:33 am 
 

To all the Absu haters: have you seen them live? I am relatively new to them, only discovered them recently and am currently filling out my discography, but holy fucking shit I caught them live at Hellfest and they were the single most mind-blowing live act I've ever seen. Proscriptor is an octopus on speed.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:41 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
This will be a short and crudely articulated response since I'm at work.

Early bands like Bathory, Samael and Celtic Frost played music that was in part black metal, but not purely so. Though it might've been called that at the time, definitions change.


So, Worship Him is not black metal or 'stopped' being black metal at some point? Bathory pre-Hammerheart is not black metal, especifically Under the Sign of the Black Mark, for example? I mean, am I really reading that bullshit?

Man, see that 'pure' black metal doesn't exist. Darkthrone who might be considered for some 'pure black metal' was nothing more than an exercise of Celtic Frost/Hellhammer styled riffing with their own twist. It's not like Fenriz invented THE way for black metal from scratch (and the band itself recognizes this fact, btw).

Ilwhyan wrote:
What was known as heavy metal in the early 70s isn't always so according to current standards. If the Norwegian bands hadn't innovated a style where the 80s bands' black metal aspects were enhanced and refined, today black metal would still mean theiir thrashy, speedy and doomy styles. I'd still call Bathory's early albums black even though they're very thrash based. The atmosphere is very different from thrash and death, for example.


Then try to explain the Hellenic black metal, which is not thrashy or speedy at all and it was developing before norwegians. It's pure black metal, just not the way of black metal you're probably used to. Have you ever heard to those bands at all? Where's the NOT black metal thing about Varathron, for example?

Also, black metal is still thrashy in many other countries. Does that fact make Blasphemy 'less' black metal than, say, Gorgoroth? absolutely not! those are different styles of black metal, cause like it or not, there's no unique or true form of black metal. If we were to call 'true' to some form of black metal, it makes way more sense to mention the earliest black metal bands than the ones who spawned years after evolving from the 'quintessential' black metal style; again: Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bathory, maybe early Samael, Sarcófago, Blasphemy and so on. If not, it's like today we call true death metal to Nile or Necrophagist instead Morbid Angel or Death.

Ilwhyan wrote:
As for Absu I'd say they're black/thrash, just like Aura Noir are. It would be rather misleading to call Aura Noir merely black metal, and I think same goes for Absu.


If you say 'black/thrash' is cause you recognize being Absu more black metal than a mere thrash band. I used the Aura Noir comparison cause both bands, being very different, mix both styles but the black metal is at least a bit more present than thrash. So, it's not wrong to call Absu black metal.
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Sick6Six
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:33 am 
 

Never got into Absu or more like never really gave them a chance. I was interested to see them with Immortal a few years ago and I got to the show just in time to hear Absu screaming something about 13 candles and then their set ended. From what I briefly listened to online some of their early stuff sounded good, but I really cannot say since I've only ever heard like 3 songs by them. Also it kinda sounds like Ilwhyan and Kveldulfr are kind of agreeing on a lot of things, but arguing about them at the same time :argue: I think early Bathory is where black metal really began even though it was very thrashy, but many bands still are. Venom had an album titled "Black Metal" but it wasn't black metal. Also judging by some of Darkthrone's later stuff like "The Cult is Alive" and "FOAD" they really seemed offended that EVERYONE copied their style, look at their lyrics to "Too Old Too Cold" and "Shut Up" pretty lame sauce. Anyway I'm not tryin to break into this argument so carry on and hail Satan.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:47 am 
 

As someone who enjoys quite a few of the Norwegian classics, I must say it's pretty strange seeing this discussion evolve and realising that some people really do think it was the Norwegians that were responsible for giving black metal its unique identity. I can see that the Norse scene itself developed a unique identity, but in no way have I ever thought this was synonymous with the development of black metal itself. It is a pretty unique variant though, I'll certainly say that, and represents a style that's now attempted in other parts of the world, too, with varying degrees of success...
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Headless420
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:10 pm 
 

How many posts and still no mention of Negative Plane? Possibly the greatest black metal band on the face of the planet right now in my opinion. Nightbringer are also way up there.

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:12 pm 
 

They were mentioned on page 3.
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iAm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:20 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
As someone who enjoys quite a few of the Norwegian classics, I must say it's pretty strange seeing this discussion evolve and realising that some people really do think it was the Norwegians that were responsible for giving black metal its unique identity. I can see that the Norse scene itself developed a unique identity, but in no way have I ever thought this was synonymous with the development of black metal itself. It is a pretty unique variant though, I'll certainly say that, and represents a style that's now attempted in other parts of the world, too, with varying degrees of success...


But in today's day and age are the Norse bands still relevant? Many newer bands from the United States have completely abandoned the idea of Satan altogether. Even Varg Vikernes has said Burzum will no longer be making Metal music(but three albums later we'll have another Black Metal album knowing him.).
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:28 pm 
 

Speaking of Negative Plane, does anyone else feel that the over-reverbed vocals kind of put a damper on their first record? Still like it though, and love the second one.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:47 pm 
 

If you mean today's Norwegian bands, then I would have to say no, if simply because I can't think of any! The classics, though, certainly, for shaping this particular (and very popular) variant of black metal. I always thought that for example Samael, Mystifier and ROtting Christ were more satanic than most of the Norse bands though...
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theobscurum
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:04 pm 
 

Lagartija wrote:
To all the Absu haters: have you seen them live? I am relatively new to them, only discovered them recently and am currently filling out my discography, but holy fucking shit I caught them live at Hellfest and they were the single most mind-blowing live act I've ever seen. Proscriptor is an octopus on speed.


I saw Absu live probably 4 or so years ago in Philly and I have to agree that Proscriptor is a fantastic musician and exerts the energy that makes the crowd get into it. Made me want to listen to all of their stuff again afterwards.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:14 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
I can see that the Norse scene itself developed a unique identity, but in no way have I ever thought this was synonymous with the development of black metal itself.


Before the Norse explosion, black metal was totally underdeveloped. Don't get me wrong, I love Sarcofago, but the Norse really pushed this style into high gear and made it the most evolved metal style ever.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:20 pm 
 

There were already regional scenes present that predate the Norwegian scene so "pushing" the style is hardly the issue when so many bands from so many varied worldwide took "black metal" to different avenues. The Norwegian bands are just the face of the music for those uninitiated into other regional scenes.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:21 pm 
 

Veracs wrote:
There were already regional scenes present that predate the Norwegian scene


Really? Which ones?

And what did they do to the music that the Nords did not?
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Back Stabbath
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:31 pm 
 

AsinineUsername wrote:
Back Stabbath wrote:
So following this logic, out of this "scene's" seeming primary influences Burzum and Drudkh which one is the Melvins and which one is Flipper?



I'd love to hear some No Wave+black metal fusion that isn't gimmicky bullshit.


Fark me, that is so creepy given that you quoted me when you wrote it. My one man BM/ambient band is nearly exactly that, made wholly using samples (I might introduce actual bass playing to it one day) but comes off kinda post-gothy BM or something. Haters gonna hate.

Back on topic though, I've seen both Wolves in the Throne Room and Absu live, and I can't say I found any fault in their performance at all. I don't listen to either band, as I'm into a different type of BM. I met the non-singer guitarist of WitTR, and he was a nice guy far more interested in the subcultural underground movement in Terra Nullius than talking about metal, which I entirely respect. I find Proscriptor a real farking idiot however, his views on the occult easily fall in the over-opinionated dabbler category.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:56 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
Veracs wrote:
There were already regional scenes present that predate the Norwegian scene


Really? Which ones?

And what did they do to the music that the Nords did not?


Greece. It predated Norway and it was 100% black metal, a different style that became very recognizable and relevant to this day.

Really, people saying the Norwegians were the ones who defined the second wave are only people who is getting into black metal thru the most mainstream acts and of course don't know almost nothing else, let alone are/were informed how the style was developing around the world.

I posted other examples before, so read it and tell me that there wasn't black metal before Norwegians.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:05 pm 
 

2nd wave black metal was pretty much inevitable after Celtic Frost, Sarcofago and Bathory put out their most influential work. Norway was not needed to form black metal after this and they definitely did give their own spin to it.
But just look at what happened in greece, czech republic and even Finland. That all happened pretty much at the same time as the stuff in norway got developed.
What i find amusing is that there is that it took about 4 years for black metal to become fully solidified with the emergence of all these scenes (in terms of full length releases)
Thats pretty much what happened with death metal aswell. Seven churches released in 1985 and 4 years later in 1989 we get the real flow of death metal starting.

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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:13 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
So, Worship Him is not black metal or 'stopped' being black metal at some point? Bathory pre-Hammerheart is not black metal, especifically Under the Sign of the Black Mark, for example? I mean, am I really reading that bullshit?


Yes.

Bathory, Hellhammer/Celtic Frost and Slayer were all a proto-death/black generation, undifferentiated at the time.

Only later did that sound (and topic/imagery) get refined.

Just like Black Sabbath really was proto-metal, and NWOBHM the first real metal genre.
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Lord Tempestuous
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:16 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
There were already regional scenes present that predate the Norwegian scene so "pushing" the style is hardly the issue when so many bands from so many varied worldwide took "black metal" to different avenues. The Norwegian bands are just the face of the music for those uninitiated into other regional scenes.


I think many find the Norwegians to be the pinnacle of the genre, and so put them at the foremost of the discussion, I certainly do.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:21 am 
 

Lord Tempestuous wrote:
I think many find the Norwegians to be the pinnacle of the genre, and so put them at the foremost of the discussion, I certainly do.


It's pretty hard to argue that, musically, they're not. If Sarcofago and Blasphemy had become famous, black metal would have ended up being a variant of crustcore and would have quickly become as irrelevant as all the post-Amebix crust bands.
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XcKyle93
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:29 am 
 

I agree with Kveldulfr; why is everyone ignoring the Greek acts? I am honestly not too too familiar with Greek black metal, but I do think that Rotting Christ is spectacular, yet significantly different from the Norwegian bands of the time.
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The Red in the Sky is Ours and select songs off With Fear... is the compositional height of death metal, if not all of metal. Better than ten Super Bowls.


Ah yes, the death metal phenomenon that is the Super Bowl.


Last edited by XcKyle93 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:32 am 
 

Wittr and all these cascade bands aint even bm. They are not satanic thus no "black" Call em brown metal, or green metal. lol

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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:33 am 
 

XcKyle93 wrote:
I agree with Kveldulfr; why is everyone ignoring the Greek acts? I am honestly not too too familiar with Greek black metal, but I do that Rotting Christ is spectacular, yet significantly different from the Norwegian bands of the time.


I don't think we are ignoring them. They're an interesting sideline that's more heavy metal than the Norwegian acts. My personal favorite is Varathron, but I've just been listening to Mystic Places of Dawn (Septic Flesh).
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XcKyle93
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:41 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
I don't think we are ignoring them. They're an interesting sideline that's more heavy metal than the Norwegian acts. My personal favorite is Varathron, but I've just been listening to Mystic Places of Dawn (Septic Flesh).


Mystic Places of Dawn is a great album, but Septicflesh has absolutely nothing to do with black metal...
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narsilianshard wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
The Red in the Sky is Ours and select songs off With Fear... is the compositional height of death metal, if not all of metal. Better than ten Super Bowls.


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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:42 am 
 

XcKyle93 wrote:
Mystic Places of Dawn is a great album, but Septicflesh has absolutely nothing to do with black metal...


What genre would you place it in?
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XcKyle93
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:47 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
XcKyle93 wrote:
Mystic Places of Dawn is a great album, but Septicflesh has absolutely nothing to do with black metal...


What genre would you place it in?


Septicflesh is pretty varied, but the album you mentioned in particular I'd consider atmospheric death metal. They have some melodeathy stuff, they have some symphonic stuff, they have some gothic stuff, but it's all wrapped around death metal, not black metal.
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narsilianshard wrote:
Chaosmonger wrote:
The Red in the Sky is Ours and select songs off With Fear... is the compositional height of death metal, if not all of metal. Better than ten Super Bowls.


Ah yes, the death metal phenomenon that is the Super Bowl.

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Lord Tempestuous
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:48 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
Greece. It predated Norway and it was 100% black metal, a different style that became very recognizable and relevant to this day.

Really, people saying the Norwegians were the ones who defined the second wave are only people who is getting into black metal thru the most mainstream acts and of course don't know almost nothing else, let alone are/were informed how the style was developing around the world.

I posted other examples before, so read it and tell me that there wasn't black metal before Norwegians.


Did the Greek scene really predate Norway's though? From what I recall up until '91 they were still really Death Metallish, whereas we can count the Norwegian national sound as starting in '90 with Mayhem's studio tracks.(namely Freezing Moon)
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Lord Tempestuous
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:50 am 
 

XcKyle93 wrote:

Septicflesh is pretty varied, but the album you mentioned in particular I'd consider atmospheric death metal. They have some melodeathy stuff, they have some symphonic stuff, they have some gothic stuff, but it's all wrapped around death metal, not black metal.


yeah not much BM in that one
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:53 am 
 

This thread is about USBM, not Greek bm, come on guys! Stay on topic.
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Back Stabbath
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:24 am 
 

pastafarian wrote:
Wittr and all these cascade bands aint even bm. They are not satanic thus no "black" Call em brown metal, or green metal. lol


Well they can't be brown metal, as we have the Brown Light Circle over here (see the list here where I'm thanked as a member: https://sites.google.com/a/thrallofvoid ... ll/members ) so I vote green metal. Bloody hippies.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:22 am 
 

The early Hellenic scene was not "pure black metal" at all, it was a crossover of heavy, thrash and death metal. Even Samael and Master's Hammer sounded "blacker" at the time.

When was the first Greek black metal release and what was it? Deathcrush was released in 1987, that's "blacker" and earlier!

People who try to minimize the capital importance of Norway in the development of the international black metal scene obviously have an inferiority complex (because they're not European?).

Still the facts are here: Bathory in Sweden invented the black metal tone in 1984, and nobody outside of Norway played this same kind of metal before the 90's.


(By the way, the derivation of this thread says a lot about the importance of "USBM", ah ah).
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:49 am 
 

Lord Tempestuous wrote:
Kveldulfr wrote:
Greece. It predated Norway and it was 100% black metal, a different style that became very recognizable and relevant to this day.

Really, people saying the Norwegians were the ones who defined the second wave are only people who is getting into black metal thru the most mainstream acts and of course don't know almost nothing else, let alone are/were informed how the style was developing around the world.

I posted other examples before, so read it and tell me that there wasn't black metal before Norwegians.


Did the Greek scene really predate Norway's though? From what I recall up until '91 they were still really Death Metallish, whereas we can count the Norwegian national sound as starting in '90 with Mayhem's studio tracks.(namely Freezing Moon)


Varathron's 89' demo was black metal. That predates 99% of Norwegian black metal's very existence, since only Mayhem existed playing black metal at the time (Darkthrone was too busy playing death metal).

I'm not sure if counts, but in 89-90 those bands were already playing live (Rotting Christ were playing new black metal material which finally was released as Passage to Arcturo for example), whereas the Norwegian ones didn't exist (again, except Mayhem).

Thing is that I'm not 'minimizing' what Norwegian black metal did for expanding the genre, but to say they were THE second wave of black metal is simply sheer ignorance of what happened in the rest of the world at the same time and even before. Just cause Mayhem and only Mayhem existed pre-90 in Norway we can't say the whole 'Norwegian scene' was moving. If that's a fact for some, then second wave started with Bathory and 'Swedish' scene before and at the very same time than the 'Swizz' scene (Samael is 2nd wave black metal, like it or not and their first release is from 87').

Now, about the USBM scene, I guess US can't be the greatest in everything. US is unparalled when it comes to death metal, so just live with it. It developed later, so it's natural that people will look it as 'inferior', since there were already tons of classics released from the rest of the world.

I'm not even sure if a scene existed, black metal in US is too fragmented too call it a collective effort from certain region/state.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:23 am 
 

You really say a lot of shit in a stubborn way but I don't want to become disrespectful, so I'll let the music speak for itself.

1st Varathron demo (1989):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lBENxer3MI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtOBnlsqF7s

I hear some old-school melodic thrash/death metal, like early Death. No Bathory influence.


1st Samael demo (1987):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgtvJZ5ffJs
Basically Celtic Frost-worship with Bathory-influenced vocals. But I admit it's clearly closer to black metal than Greek counterparts. Let's call it 'early black/thrash', like Bathory and Tormentor.


And again, there was NO SWEDISH BLACK METAL SCENE in the 1980's, except Bathory. It simply didn't exist. But at the end of the 80's, when the Swedes played old-school or melodic death metal, Mayhem, Varg Vikernes and the guys from Thorns were already composing black metal riffs.

How can we explain that today, most Hellenic bands (Der Stürmer, Naer Mataron, Wolfnacht...) play Norwegian-like black metal, instead of following old-school Greek bands?

Next bullshitty posts will be ignored.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:27 am 
 

There were lots of pioneer bands in the whole world in the 1980's: Bulldözer (Italy), Sepultura, Tormentor (Hungary), but they didn't form a national cohesive scene like the Norwegian one in the 1990's.

The early Greek bands formed a national cohesive scene... But their music style was not pure black metal at all, it was in fact melodic death metal, like in Sweden. The only "black" elements came from non-musical aspects, like "Satanism".

Addendum: Rotting Christ started as a grindcore act. Here's their first so-called black metal demo (1989):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNJDwx1UTlE

This sounds like a mix between Sarcofago, Celtic Frost and Samael (slow parts), with low death metal growls. The same kind of bands existed in Finland (Beherit) or Canada (Blasphemy). This style is a crossover between 1st wave black metal and early thrash-death.

In conclusion, without Norway, black metal would have never existed as a subgenre, but as an element of an extreme metal bastard crossover.
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Lagartija
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:52 am 
 

theobscurum wrote:
Lagartija wrote:
To all the Absu haters: have you seen them live? I am relatively new to them, only discovered them recently and am currently filling out my discography, but holy fucking shit I caught them live at Hellfest and they were the single most mind-blowing live act I've ever seen. Proscriptor is an octopus on speed.


I saw Absu live probably 4 or so years ago in Philly and I have to agree that Proscriptor is a fantastic musician and exerts the energy that makes the crowd get into it. Made me want to listen to all of their stuff again afterwards.

They were directly followed non-stop by Asphyx, that combinaiton had me jumping up and down for up to an hour after the show ended :D

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:04 am 
 

Again, greeks developed their own brand of black metal which came more influenced by Mercyful Fate, Venom, Hellhammer/ Celtic Frost and Samael, not only Bathory as some Norwegians were. Burzum was born in 91 and before that Varg, Abbath, the Enslaved guys, the Darkthone guys among others were playing death metal.

In short, Greece was doing black metal without Norwegian interference - at least the earliest bands, so black metal as a separated entity would have existed anyway, with or without the Norwegian scene around.

Norwegian black metal scene didn't existed before 91 anyway, there was only one band doing black metal at the time, so until 90 Norway and Sweden were pretty much on the same situation. On the rest of the world, black metal already existed in differrent ways, just as sparse as in Norway or even more cohesively in some cases; in Brazil you had Vulcano, Mystifier and Sarcofago for example. Besides Samael, Alastis were playing black metal in Switzerland before most of Norwegians. What do you think about Root and Master's Hammer?

As has been stated before, not cause Norwegian black metal became successful we'll say they were the definitive second wave or the only/real evolution of the black metal genre. KFD, you fail on recognizing a simple fact: the black/thrash metal played by many before the Norwegians is still black metal, a more primitive way if you want but is as black metal as any other bm act. I'll repeat a question: is Blasphemy black metal? Is Absu black metal? If the answer is yes (which is it) then my point is proven.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:26 am 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pL3MHwlYaKQ
Does this sound like death metal to your ears, you stubborn donkey?
You are obviously unable to distinguish black, death and thrash metal from each other.

I don't deny the existence of the 1st "black metal" wave, but 1) IT WAS INTERNATIONAL, SPREAD ALL OVER THE PLANET and 2) IT WAS NOT PURE BLACK METAL but black/thrash/death.

Only the Norwegians pioneered pure black metal with tremolo-picked minor chords (not palm-muted), blastbeats, echoed mid-pitched vocals and distorted synth-like bass lines.

Blasphemy is shit, keep listening to it, leave pure black metal alone and get back to your Third World bastard crossover bands. Call "black metal" whatever you like, even Black Sabbath, but I'm done here, my patience is limited.
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KFD
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:51 am 
 

Oh, and just another question:

Why did Dead and Attila Csihar come to Norway at some point? Why didn't they join a local band, if the black metal scene was spread worldwide?
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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:55 am 
 

KFD wrote:
Blasphemy is shit


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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:10 am 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
So, Worship Him is not black metal or 'stopped' being black metal at some point? Bathory pre-Hammerheart is not black metal, especifically Under the Sign of the Black Mark, for example? I mean, am I really reading that bullshit?

Man, see that 'pure' black metal doesn't exist. Darkthrone who might be considered for some 'pure black metal' was nothing more than an exercise of Celtic Frost/Hellhammer styled riffing with their own twist. It's not like Fenriz invented THE way for black metal from scratch (and the band itself recognizes this fact, btw).

I couldn't have said what I meant much clearer. You're free to interpret it in any ridiculous way you want, but I suggest that you should read what I said more carefully and not simply make reactionary strawmen. Early Bathory is pretty much black metal, although many of the riffs are different from what the genre later developed into. It stands as a watershed between proto-black metal and the second wave. There are bands whose music is more pure black metal than Bathory's, but that doesn't mean it isn't black metal.

Of course I know of Hellenic black metal. It must not be hard to guess what of it I consider to be pure black metal. What I remember of the first Varathron album is based on dark heavy metal riffs with little black metal in them, whereas something like Nocternity is pretty pitch black despite having much in common with earlier Greek bands. Hellenic black metal is often described as what black metal would be if it was rooted in Merciful Fate's brand of heavy metal as opposed to death, thrash and other extremes of metal. Some of it is undoubtedly very black, some of it only slightly so. It doesn't serve any point to bring up these bands.

Kveldulfr wrote:
Also, black metal is still thrashy in many other countries. Does that fact make Blasphemy 'less' black metal than, say, Gorgoroth? absolutely not! those are different styles of black metal, cause like it or not, there's no unique or true form of black metal. If we were to call 'true' to some form of black metal, it makes way more sense to mention the earliest black metal bands than the ones who spawned years after evolving from the 'quintessential' black metal style; again: Hellhammer/Celtic Frost, Bathory, maybe early Samael, Sarcófago, Blasphemy and so on. If not, it's like today we call true death metal to Nile or Necrophagist instead Morbid Angel or Death.
Thrash metal elements need not be excised for the band to be black metal. You wouldn't think me to consider that a given only if you thought I was somehow insane. There are death metal bands who play the occasional black metal riff or an entire black metal song, after all. According to that same logic, we can see the small black elements in Venom, for example, merely as something that, while making them unique, hardly warranted their labelling as black metal. The fact that these smatterings of black in their music would inspire later musicians to write music solely based on those elements is technically inconsequential. In other words, what inspired what doesn't have the greatest relevance when seeking to give bands and their music the most appropriate, descriptive label. I looked at Venom's genre tag on metal-archives, and I think it gives a fairly accurate idea of what the music sounds like. I might've put thrash in there, but NWOBHM/speed/black metal is fine... Even if the mention of black is halfway there just to give the band a nod for coining the term and being an influence in terms of aesthetics and imagery. After all, the riffing is mostly just sinister thrash and speed metal.

Yep, I consider Blasphemy to be less black metal than Gorgoroth. The latter also has thrash-like riffing, mostly inspired by Slayer, but it's harder to connect with thrash due to the utter prevalence of black metal in their sound. The logic is really easy to understand. Consider, for example, a hypothetical band that is half thrash and half black metal, thus black/thrash. Taking away all the thrash metal elements of their sound and replacing them with elements similar to what make half of their sound black metal would obviously make them entirely black metal (and zero thrash), hence pure black metal.

Necrophagist is a poor example here, as it's really in a subgenre of death metal (tech), but technically, the same logic can be extrapolated into any other genre. There are different degrees to which certain bands' music conform to a specific sound, and therefore there are more and less pure instances of that sound. Honestly, arguing about it excessively is pointless, and I will step down after this as I think I've spent enough time clarifying what is essentially a very simple point. Agree with it or not, if you don't even understand the logic, you must be intentionally inhibiting your understanding.
Kveldulfr wrote:
If you say 'black/thrash' is cause you recognize being Absu more black metal than a mere thrash band. I used the Aura Noir comparison cause both bands, being very different, mix both styles but the black metal is at least a bit more present than thrash. So, it's not wrong to call Absu black metal.
Yeah, it's really not. It would be more accurate to call it black/thrash or something, but I won't really jump at anyone's throat who calls them merely black metal. Calling Venom or such merely black metal is entirely wrong. Even though the band influenced the genre greatly, musically it would amount to the same thing as labelling Cult of Luna as merely hardcore punk.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:39 am 
 

First, I'm not insulting you. That was unneccesary and totally childish.

KFD wrote:

I don't deny the existence of the 1st "black metal" wave, but 1) IT WAS INTERNATIONAL, SPREAD ALL OVER THE PLANET and 2) IT WAS NOT PURE BLACK METAL but black/thrash/death.


So, Blasphemy is not second wave black metal? since it has a thrash element on their style is 'not true' black metal? does Worship Him fall into the same bullshit category or yours? so, those bands are NOT black metal? cause no matter how delusional you are, those bands are/were black metal, maybe not the type of black metal you glorify, but it was and is black metal without a doubt (and some one of my fav black metal bands are Norwegians, it's not like I hate/dislike it in any shape or form).

KFD wrote:

Only the Norwegians pioneered pure black metal with tremolo-picked minor chords (not palm-muted), blastbeats, echoed mid-pitched vocals and distorted synth-like bass lines.


So, under your definition, Burzum's Black spell of Destruction is not black metal, nor Ulver's I Troldskog Faren Vild or Darkthrone's Quintessence, for naming a few (I thought it was Venom who distorted the bass first than anyone).

So, according to you, only the Norwegians used tremolo picking, blastbeats and screams? I'm sure Rotting Christ were doing the same, especially on Thy Mighty Contract, a style of black metal who was born independently of what Norwegians were doing, like it or not. It was developing if not before, at the same time and came from different primal influences. Check the rest of the worldwide black metal of further damage.

And well, if something don't use blastbeats and tremolo picking with 'grim' vocals, it's not black metal? REALLY? I truly wonder who's the clueless about black metal as a whole, your definition is too way restricted to be applied to the whole subgenre.

Since when we don't count as xx metal to bands that have some elements of another subgenres?

KFD wrote:

Why did Dead and Attila Csihar come to Norway at some point? Why didn't they join a local band, if the black metal scene was spread worldwide?


Dead was playing with Morbid, so he had some activity with a local band, as well Attila was in Tormentor, which also was a Hungarian black metal band pre-norwegian 'scene'. Besides your argument falling flat, Now are you trying to imply that black metal outside Norway didn't exist? If Attila or Dead were to be close to Southamerica or Greece back in the day, they would have played in early black metal bands as well.

KFD wrote:
Blasphemy is shit.


Now you discredit them for your tastes? KDF is not human, is shit! (C'mon).
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