Quote of the day

Yeah, Sunbather was really good. I mean, the first one was reasonably good, but in the end was basically lots of shoegaze dumped over the standard post-black sound. WIth this one it seems that they've finally admitted to themselves that at heart they're about the shoegaze and that really manifests in a great way. Probably will end up on my album of the year list.

edit - the wiki article says they've sold over 75,000 albums, which is no small accomplishment.

Is anyone enjoying the Panopticon side of the recent Vestiges/Panopticon split that just came out? I've listened to the Vestiges side plenty of times as it was released a while ago, and I'm just getting to trying out the Panopticon side. So far, this whole split is proving to be very refreshing in this sphere of black metal. I like how all of Panopticon's releases are all very distinct from each other, and this one continues that tradition.

I just downloaded it today for free on the Flenser bandcamp. It's pretty cool, not Panopticon's best, but still a solid effort. This is my first experience with Vestiges and they're solid. The two bands really flow together nicely. I'm also exited about Panopticon's upcoming split with Falls Of Rauros.

I do enjoy the Panopticon side of the split. I'm thinking of getting the vinyl. I'm definitely looking forward to the split with Falls of Rauros.

Thanks for reminding me about Fall of Rauros, I didn't even know they had a split coming out with Panopticon, let alone remember their existence in the first place. They're one of the many bands I found on Youtube when I was very high during the semester, saw them to be amazing on the first spin of the album, and ending up just forgetting about them the next day.

Dude, such an amazing band. The two original recordings on the "Of Stone and the Stars in the Sky" demo are amazing. And particularly relevant to this thread. Though there is not an outright "post-rock" influence, the band certainly would appeal to any fans of "post-black metal" (as defined in the OP). And considering that demo was recorded 6 years ago, it sounds like what some bands have been trying really hard to sound like in the last 2 years.

I don't even... What?

Falls of Rauros are really amazing, yeah, the latest album jist gives me the chills every time, just amazing atmosphere and riffs. Anyhow, I'm not a big fan of Panopticon and/or splits, so I might end up not-hearing the latest effort... or maybe just the Falls' side

I think it's a similar phenomenon to "metalcore." In ages long past, "metalcore" meant the same thing as "crossover" does now, i.e. hardcore punk bands hybridizing with thrash metal. However, the same term was later slung at the modern variant, which is more like post-hardcore/tough-guy hardcore mixed with Gothenburg melodeath. Two totally different things, basically.

The problem is that post-rock is a pretty damn well-defined genre these days. It may be hard to write down on paper exactly what it is, but in the same way that the M-A staff know what "metal guitar riffs" are, I think post-rock fans can spot what's post-rock and what's not pretty easily. I actually admin a pretty big post-rock group on Facebook that I joined something like seven years ago now, and people there actually shit bricks when people post stuff that might be appreciated but obviously isn't post-rock.

Being a well-defined genre, it's then easy for someone who's familiar with it to hear it (or not) in certain black metal bands, and there are a whole slew of new bands creating (or attempting to create, anyway) black metal/post-rock hybrids, with varying degrees of effectiveness (often "not very"). It also continues to baffle me that metalheads label this stuff kind of interchangeably as "post-rock/black metal" and "shoegaze/black metal". Sure, shoegaze probably had a fair amount of influence on early post-rock bands, but they're hardly the same thing. Alcest, for example, are basically a really wimpy shoegaze band but have zero post-rock in their sound. Agalloch have loads of post-rock (on certain releases anyway) but don't sound like shoegaze at all.

Every fucking subgenre in the extreme metal was a trend when it began. Like it happened with death metal or black metal, a journalist defined the genre with a name (f.e. "black metal" and dozens of band sappeared playing that "new" style. I am sure that some metalheads said in the past that bm was a trend and the reason of the decline of extreme metal.

Its funny because the history is repeated again and again...

Hm, sign me up to that group or something. I do think I know what you mean about the post-rock sound; I like some bands that play the style, too, as you probably know...I just don't like the terminology.

So you figure Alcest do sound a bit like a shoegaze band then? Maybe I should listen to them more. Not sure I can be bothered, though. I don't remember shoegaze having that much acoustic guitar generally....

Well, they sound really wimpy for shoegaze. My Bloody Valentine sound like they're leveling cities. They sound *dangerous*. Alcest only sound pretty.

Since when are Agalloch black metal?

MBV is kind of an exception, not all shoegaze is as crushing. A good portion of shoegaze bands had a very ethereal and calm (or as you might say, wimpy) atmosphere like Alcest (I'd even say that's the draw of the genre). Souvenirs d'un Autre Monde in particular puts me in mind of Slowdive.

I don't know if anyone said that, but they have their obvious influences from black metal (among many other styles). They're pretty relevant to the discussion at hand.

Yeah, a lot of it was more like dream pop but the saturated guitars on the Alcest material I've heard made it sound like they were going for a thicker, MBV/Jesu type sound, rather than the really crystalline delicate sorts of shoegaze.

I'd say Faustian Echoes is since when, and Marrow of the Spirit was pretty close.

I don't think Alcest can be called Shoegaze,really. I think people hear ethereal vocals and a wall of sound and assume that it can be pigeonholed into an existing genre, just as people could hear blastbeats or screams in some songs and assume that it has to be black metal.

You're quite right, except on one point: 'post-black metal' is no more a real subgenre than 'DSBM' or 'Gothic wampyric metal' (a la Cradle of Filth or late Dimmu Burger) is.

The difference between subgenre and trend is that subgenre defines a certain type of playing, in terms of structure, tone, production etc. A trend is more associated to superficial elements, such as imagery, lyrical themes, gimmicks. Let me quote some examples: in the mid-90's, the main trend among the black metal scene was the Gothic wampyric/symphonic trend initiated by Cradle of Filth. Dimmu Borgir began playing as a True Norwegian Black Metal band, but changed their style and jumped in the bandwagon circa 1997. In the same year, Ancient, who had also begun their career as a TNBM band, followed the trend by releasing Mad Grandiose Bloodfiends. Later, Dimmu Burger kept playing in the same symphonic mallcore vein, but Ancient went back to TNBM.

To sum it up, a trend has a limited lifespan, and no real deep musical identity, while a subgenre might become outdated, but still remain valid according to technical criteria.

Nobody plays grunge anymore, but there's a specific way to play and sing grunge. On the contrary, there is no specific way to play and sing Gothic wampyric metal, because each band had their own fomula, even if they shared a common imagery and production and plagiarized each other's gimmicks. And I wonder what would be the specific way to play and sing post-black metal? What would define this pseudo-subgenre in terms of technical criteria?

I remember an interview with Neige from when Alcest had just released Souvenirs d'un autre monde, and he stated that he had never even heard of shoegaze until people started comparing that album to it - after it had been released, of course. So I'm always a bit uncomfortable with the shoegaze tag being slapped onto that album. Because, regardless from whether Neige's claim is true or not, it sounds quite different from the shoegaze bands I've heard. Let alone his other band, Amesoeurs, getting labelled as shoegaze, while it's obviously black metal mixed with post-punk, or coldwave if you will.

Like most post rock, it's just one of those things where they get a good idea, but then draw it out for way too long. I understand the point is ambiance and stuff, but it really doesn't do it for me. I think Altar of Plagues has done it right, and to a lesser extent, Agalloch, but other than that I don't find myself enjoying that clash too often. I'm okay with post-rock if it's the dark sludgier stuff, but the hipstery kind mixed with black metal just bores me.

Fell Voices is not post-black metal man. Awesome band, but doesn't belong in this thread. That's like saying Ash Borer is post-black metal.

Interesting. Today I learned that not trve + not kvlt = mallcore. I guess that pretty much everything I listen to is "mallcore" then.

I saw Deafheaven at a small venue in D.C. on Sunday. The line-up was... interesting, to say the least. First up was Curse, an electronic/doom band from Baltimore. They alternated between doom played on the keyboard with abrasive screaming and electronic sections with... abrasive singing. Honestly, the vocalist was not very good. She looked good though I guess.

The second band was Marriages, some atmoshperic rock band or something. They actually weren't half-bad, and I thoroughly enjoyed their bass player.

Deafheaven was pretty intense. The vocalist acted super grim the entire time, though I don't think he was being particularly serious. He was very very interactive with the crowd, and man, Deafheaven was LOUD! There weren't too too many metalheads there, and it was interesting seeing a bunch of hipsters mosh. I really didn't think that Deafheaven was the type of band that you'd mosh to, but if there's anything I learned anything at Maryland Deathfest, it's that people will mosh to ANYTHING.

As a guy who listens to a lot of shoegaze AND Alcest, I can tell you that yes, Alcest wasn't actually influenced by or aware of shoegaze up until Souvenirs d'un Autre Monde but honestly it seems like a freak case of parallel evolution to me. that's what makes the band really interesting; that album was a combination of post rock, black metal and a little bit of Neige's weird fairyland vision and it ended up sounding like something entirely different. THAT album doesn't really sound like shoegaze, though; but their subsequent albums sure as fuck do. Listen to a couple of these tracks and honestly tell me you can't at least sort of see the resemblance:

This was released in 2007, so it's a likely influence perhaps? There's a presence of discordant tremolo riffing, of course less in the foreground than a black metal fan would be used to.



This was released in 1994 (!!!). Alcest ain't anything new, that's fer sure. Still, they're one of my favorite bands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XomEAG71ri0

Killer new post black metal!

I think Numenorean deserve a new thread of their own.

Yes, please do not necromance three year old threads to post something only tangentially related.