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Maniac Matis
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:53 pm 
 

Hey guys! I'm sure this has been brought up/conceived before, although I couldn't find anything through the search engine...Listen to these two songs. Seriously the same chord progression! I first realized back in 2009 when Hexen first released State of Insurgency. Has anyone else been aware of this?

Carcass's "Heartwork" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA6LqVfjMcg (1:21-1:31)

Hexen's "Chaos Aggressor": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMkLYMnYWds (2:02-2:12)

Both 10 seconds long too! :-P
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Metal_Detector
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:58 pm 
 

This is so common it's hardly notable. It also sounds a lot like the chorus of "People of the Lie" by Kreator.

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Maniac Matis
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:07 pm 
 

I suppose so.
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Chainsaw Omega
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:52 pm 
 

Furthermore, the verse riff is Carcass - Incarnated Solvent Abuse.

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pestilent_god
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:51 am 
 

Jesus. even the vocal pattern of the verse is like Incarnated Solvent Abuse. It's an even worse offender than the the part that the OP pointed. I mean, I was literally singing Carcass lyrics over it.

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Peroy
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 am
Posts: 360
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:32 pm 
 

Maniac Matis wrote:
Hey guys! I'm sure this has been brought up/conceived before, although I couldn't find anything through the search engine...Listen to these two songs. Seriously the same chord progression! I first realized back in 2009 when Hexen first released State of Insurgency. Has anyone else been aware of this?

Carcass's "Heartwork" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA6LqVfjMcg (1:21-1:31)

Hexen's "Chaos Aggressor": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMkLYMnYWds (2:02-2:12)

Both 10 seconds long too! :-P


I'm always amazed how people manage to even hear something like this...

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Desperta_Ferro
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:42 pm 
 

haha I know right?
Maybe because I don't pay attention, but if someone doesn't bring this up I could never notice.

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Peroy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:49 pm 
 

Desperta_Ferro wrote:
haha I know right?
Maybe because I don't pay attention, but if someone doesn't bring this up I could never notice.


They must have memorized every note of every song ever written... :P

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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:39 pm 
 

hahahaha, this is the most blatant rip off I've ever heard.
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693
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:51 pm 
 

Wow, that's not even funny. Why would they do that?

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shouvince
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:11 pm 
 

Ok at first listen, I thought it was just a coincidence but I played it the second time and noticed the vocal pattern to be the same as well. It could still be a very strange coincidence though (giving Hexen the benefit of the doubt).

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Peroy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:11 pm 
 

693 wrote:
Wow, that's not even funny. Why would they do that?


Homage and/or laziness...

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Goatfangs
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:39 pm 
 

I think I know how this similarity was noticed - someone posted a comment two years ago on the Hexen video about Heartwork.
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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:17 pm 
 

I hate when people point this crap out. They sound a little bit alike at first, especially because of the rhythm and soloing over the second half of each. But to say they use the same chords is completely and utterly wrong.

Hexen plays regular power chords (assuming that it's tuned to E) B, E, C and A. It ends and the tonic becomes E.

Carcass plays (again, assuming the guitar is tuned to E, which it's not) a chord in A, then C right before that quarter of the measure ends, then F, then B, then that C again which goes into E. Some of the power chords are also inverted shapes to give it that low feeling. The Tonic here is A.

So, Hexen plays a five, one, minor six, and four. Carcass plays a one, minor three, followed by a minor six (but below the tonic, so four semitones down), a minor two, four, and five, but below the tonic again. Get it right people. They have a completely different feel in the context of the song.
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Oddeye
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:20 pm 
 

Awesome thread!

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Maniac Matis
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:33 pm 
 

CF_Mono wrote:
I hate when people point this crap out. They sound a little bit alike at first, especially because of the rhythm and soloing over the second half of each. But to say they use the same chords is completely and utterly wrong.

Hexen plays regular power chords (assuming that it's tuned to E) B, E, C and A. It ends and the tonic becomes E.

Carcass plays (again, assuming the guitar is tuned to E, which it's not) a chord in A, then C right before that quarter of the measure ends, then F, then B, then that C again which goes into E. Some of the power chords are also inverted shapes to give it that low feeling. The Tonic here is A.

So, Hexen plays a five, one, minor six, and four. Carcass plays a one, minor three, followed by a minor six (but below the tonic, so four semitones down), a minor two, four, and five, but below the tonic again. Get it right people. They have a completely different feel in the context of the song.


I'm not a guitar player, so saying that they play the same chord progression in the OP was foolish. I meant that they sound identical, really. Even the way the vocals are sung, as someone said before. I'd like to give Hexen the benefit of the doubt that this is sheer coincidence, because they really are a creative force! It is hard though, because I'm sure everyone in Hexen has listened to Carcass at least once or twice...
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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:05 pm 
 

I almost always give benefit of the doubt. I have hundreds of riffs in my head that I can pull out like a japanese chef pulls lobsters out of a fish tank. If you're writing a song, it's easy to know when you've copied it from somewhere or if it sounds familiar. After that there's usually a conscious effort to disguise it in some way. But at the end of the day, there are only twelve notes in the chromatic scale. Lots of musicians copy licks and riffs and pieces of melody from one another countless times a day. How you shape your song, your sound, and your style of playing is what real songwriting is about. It's the reason people don't listen to Mandatory Suicide and For Whom The Bell Tolls and then accuse Slayer of ripping off Metallica, even though both songs consist of the same scales, notes, and ideas.

There are riffs every now and then though that seem to be undeniably similar. But even still, nobody writes a riff and then thinks "Woooah, this sounds just like Iron Maiden! We should mold this song around theirs so we get famous like them!"... Examples that immediately come to mind are that one with Altar of Plagues and Agalloch. I don't remember the song names but the chords, rhythm, and even tone are identical.

You'd also be surprised how much it happens as coincidence. I've had the song in my signature compared to The Dillinger Escape Plan, Enslaved, and the Dead Kennedy songs multiple times, but I don't listen to any of them.
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pastafarian
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:01 am 
 

Eluveitie ripped off dark tranquility.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9b4NvO9U9wA

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:20 pm 
 

Maniac Matis wrote:
Hey guys! I'm sure this has been brought up/conceived before, although I couldn't find anything through the search engine...Listen to these two songs. Seriously the same chord progression! I first realized back in 2009 when Hexen first released State of Insurgency. Has anyone else been aware of this?

Carcass's "Heartwork" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA6LqVfjMcg (1:21-1:31)

Hexen's "Chaos Aggressor": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMkLYMnYWds (2:02-2:12)

Both 10 seconds long too! :-P

The chords are not the same though.

If transposed to begin with the same chord:
Heatwork: | E - - G | C - - - | F# - - A# | B - - - |
Chaos Aggressor: | E - - - | A# - - - | F - - - | D - - - |
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Last edited by Ilwhyan on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Zelkiiro
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:35 pm 
 

I've noticed a few interesting rip-offs/homages, myself.

"Period" by Chemistry (2008): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxIuO600uc4 (0:00 to 0:14 and 0:45 to 1:30)
"The Absence" by Iron Mask (2011): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcWLoYwPJ6s (0:00 to 0:28 and 1:05 to 1:34)
Conclusion: It's either a deliberate rip-off or an insane coincidence.

"Frozen" by Within Temptation (2007): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G7mfgCuoHA&t=01m07s (1:07 to 1:39)
"Mistaken" by The Murder of My Sweet (2010): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xtWpZLn_pU&t=00m50s (0:50 to 1:14)
Conclusion: Obvious rip-off.

"Tribute to the Past" by Gamma Ray (1993): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mla6gJVtomc (0:00 to 0:28)
"Eternals" by Seventh Avenue (2004): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWHJWPl1DK0 (0:00 to 0:36)
Conclusion: Maybe an homage? Maybe?
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IanThrash
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:47 pm 
 

Huge rip off, but for the record, its not the most creative chorus ever, even the original one wasnt so distinctive. Just chord strumming and the vocals following the rythm, i can name a zillion chorsuses like that.
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Baroque1
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:11 pm 
 

Hexen is still one of my favorite bands. That song isn't even some of their best work. If I found out they copied all of Being and Nothingness then i'd have a problem. It's more like they were just inspired by the metal they grew up with.

Look at the band Sublime for example, they copied a ton of riffs, vocals etc. but they made it their own through creativity. I think Hexen lend their own sound to this as well.

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Maniac Matis
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:35 pm 
 

Zelkiiro wrote:
I've noticed a few interesting rip-offs/homages, myself.

"Period" by Chemistry (2008): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxIuO600uc4 (0:00 to 0:14 and 0:45 to 1:30)
"The Absence" by Iron Mask (2011): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcWLoYwPJ6s (0:00 to 0:28 and 1:05 to 1:34)
Conclusion: It's either a deliberate rip-off or an insane coincidence.

"Frozen" by Within Temptation (2007): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G7mfgCuoHA&t=01m07s (1:07 to 1:39)
"Mistaken" by The Murder of My Sweet (2010): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xtWpZLn_pU&t=00m50s (0:50 to 1:14)
Conclusion: Obvious rip-off.

"Tribute to the Past" by Gamma Ray (1993): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mla6gJVtomc (0:00 to 0:28)
"Eternals" by Seventh Avenue (2004): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWHJWPl1DK0 (0:00 to 0:36)
Conclusion: Maybe an homage? Maybe?


Great contribution! If anyone else has similar findings, post them.

Baroque1 wrote:
Look at the band Sublime for example, they copied a ton of riffs, vocals etc. but they made it their own through creativity. I think Hexen lend their own sound to this as well.


Sublime is talentless, unoriginal, overhyped garbage. They "made it" because mindless teenagers thrive on soulless, delusional "feel good" nonsense and in no way should they be compared to a band like Hexen. I know you didn't compare the two, but still. Hexen can be given more credit than that.
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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:31 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
The chords are not the same though.

Heartwork goes something like | F5 G#5 | C#5 | F#5 A5 | C5 |
Chaos Aggressor would be, if transposed into the same tuning, | F5 G#5 | B#5 | F#5 | D#5 |

I don't think so dude. If they were in the same tuning, they wouldn't start on the same note. See my assessment above (granted I haven't tried to play these but I'm guessing it's pretty obvious that Heartwork is in the key of A when transposed to an E standard guitar, Hexen is in E.)
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:06 am 
 

CF_Mono wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
The chords are not the same though.

Heartwork goes something like | F5 G#5 | C#5 | F#5 A5 | C5 |
Chaos Aggressor would be, if transposed into the same tuning, | F5 G#5 | B#5 | F#5 | D#5 |

I don't think so dude. If they were in the same tuning, they wouldn't start on the same note. See my assessment above (granted I haven't tried to play these but I'm guessing it's pretty obvious that Heartwork is in the key of A when transposed to an E standard guitar, Hexen is in E.)

Alright, if transposed so that they begin with the same chord. The fret positions are a little irrelevant here, aren't they.
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satanscurse
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:59 am 
 

Merycful Fate "Return Of The Vampire" and Ghost "Ritual" - identical chorus.

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shouvince
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:00 am 
 

satanscurse wrote:
Merycful Fate "Return Of The Vampire" and Ghost "Ritual" - identical chorus.


Funny you should mention that, I was just listening to MF yesterday and I did find similarities with Ghost.

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The Lions Den
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:01 am 
 

MA forum definitely need this thread!
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DarkWolfXV
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:00 am 
 

Suicide Silence ripped off Cryptopsy on No time to bleed.

Suicide Silence - No Time To Bleed - Beginning and 0:46
Cryptopsy - Born Headless - Beginning and 2:32
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:30 pm 
 

A easy and obvious one, Soilwork ripping off ATG's Slaughter of the Soul main riff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Ysdi_-kAU
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Morrigan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:26 pm 
 

If Hexen ripped off Carcass for this chorus, then Carcass ripped off Kreator even more. :rolleyes: This is stupid, the resemblance isn't even that strong.

I like Gamma Ray but they are the kings of plagiarism. Sometimes self-plagiarism from Kai Hansen, too. From memory, they've ripped off riffs, vocal melodies and choruses from Judas Priest (Rapid Fire, Victim of Changes, Metal Meltdown, The Sentinel), Black Sabbath (Sabbath Bloody Sabbath), Helloween (I Want Out -- multiple times, How Many Tears), Iron Maiden (Rime of the Ancient Mariner, The Clairvoyant, probably more), Accept (Princess of the Dawn) and probably more.
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Adept128
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:03 pm 
 

satanscurse wrote:
Merycful Fate "Return Of The Vampire" and Ghost "Ritual" - identical chorus.

It's far from identical, the only part that sounds similar is the very beginning of the chorus.

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joppek
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:27 pm 
 

iron maiden - where eagles dare / immortal - solarfall
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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:44 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Alright, if transposed so that they begin with the same chord. The fret positions are a little irrelevant here, aren't they.

That makes a little more sense then. But I would argue that the position does matter. Not because of the frets but because the tonic changes in each instance.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:37 pm 
 

CF_Mono wrote:
Ilwhyan wrote:
Alright, if transposed so that they begin with the same chord. The fret positions are a little irrelevant here, aren't they.

That makes a little more sense then. But I would argue that the position does matter. Not because of the frets but because the tonic changes in each instance.
Explain 'tonic changes in each instance'? I'm not very savvy with musical terminology in English.
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AcidWorm
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:43 pm 
 

Overkill - Hammerhead
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmlA38RmMCk

Exodus - Bonded by Blood
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxCTVssoddo

Metal Inquisitor - Restricted Agony
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krshv_kWyKw

This one has always annoyed me. Blatant rip off by Metal Inquisitor. I noticed this the first time I heard this song.


Here is another big one. Priest's isn't quite as similar as Exciter and Maiden's versions though. Maiden ripped off Exciter pretty good.

Judas Priest - Running Wild
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ9_uVqFCtM

Exciter - Feel the Knife
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlv4dBgYEgo

Iron Maiden - The Wickerman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFZJY1JR0eI


youtube video of a popular riff rip-off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoyEVTN_h9I
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Tornado
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:07 am 
 

A couple that spring to mind...

Overkill - Rotten to the Core (verse) & Testament - Alone in the Dark (verse)

Exodus - Strike of the Beast (chorus) & Kreator - Total Death (chorus)

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Deviante
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:48 am 
 

I was listening to Anthem and Kamelot earlier - both bands that I love - and I noticed how similar certain two choruses sound in their pacing. I would figure it's a coincidence in this case, though. Maybe? I dunno, maybe the guys of Anthem could be into Kamelot, but as popular as they are, it seems somewhat unlikely... Who knows, though. Anyway:

Anthem - Heat of the Night (2008)

vs.

Kamelot - Lost & Damned (2003)

Apparently someone on the internet had noted this before too, but I noticed the similarities without having seen such a claim made, as I was listening to these bands and albums in succession by chance. Weird. It doesn't sound that blatant due to differences in the vocalists' voices though. But the pacing is creepily close.
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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:35 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
CF_Mono wrote:
That makes a little more sense then. But I would argue that the position does matter. Not because of the frets but because the tonic changes in each instance.
Explain 'tonic changes in each instance'? I'm not very savvy with musical terminology in English.

Listen to the riffs that come right after the snippets. Carcass would play something on the A string, Hexen on the E string. It's because those are the notes that the choruses are meant to resolve on. Each is played in a way that makes it so you want to hear that really dark phrygian mode in the Hexen song or the whole-half scale in Heartwork.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:21 am 
 

Pardon me if I'm coming across as obtuse, but what do the fret positions have to do with that?

Anyways, the chords I put here are completely wrong, now that I listen to those again. I guess my ears were broken at the time.
Heatwork: | E - - G | C - - - | F# - - A# | B - - - |
Chaos Aggressor: | E - - - | A# - - - | F - - - | D - - - |
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