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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 879
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:43 pm 
 

Metantoine wrote:
I thought you were a decent debater. I guess I was wrong! Being a metal veteran doesn't exclude anyone from spouting bullshit like you did in your previous post. I still definitely think that you're wrong with your assessment about their sound as many of their songs and even albums are not "virtuoso fapping".

OPINIONS MAN, oh no I like a popular band that you don't!


That time of the month?

What kind of debate were you hoping for, seriously? I'm perfectly aware it's an opinion. That's why there really isn't much to debate and I'm not wasting my time with it.
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Victor_Of_The_Void
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:19 am
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Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 3:55 pm 
 

w0Lf wrote:
The "progressive" label is really a misnomer. Most of their songs are verse-chorus dressed up with interludes and transition riffs.


"progressive" is more of a quality as opposed to being a distinct style. If you take a band like Queensyrche for example, it is working within a conceptual frame for their albums that makes them "progressive" as opposed to being technical like Yes or esoteric like Genesis which would usually serve as the basis for calling a band "progressive".

Iron Maiden, Metallica, Megadeth, Cathedral, Emperor even Black Sabbath and Deep Purple all have moments where the music can be thought of as "progressive". Because it is a quality and bands don't necessarily have to sound uniform or adapt to the same rules.

Would you call Manilla Road progressive? You probably would, but it is just one bit of what they are and not the most forceful either. The songs are driven by multiple riffs but that can also be described as "epic" I guess. I like bands that work with "progressive" elements within a traditional metal setting like Hammers of Misfortune, Manilla Road, early Fates Warning and Brutal Hand. Because then you have riffs.

And I love Dream Theater but they lack RIFFS! John Petrucci plays very creative and imaginative solos but he seems to have only one idea for riffing, and it is right out of the Metallica handbook with a few quotes from the Maiden guitar team. James LaBrie has a great voice capable of great emotional depth and the right amount of aggression and John Myung's bass playing is exceptional and Portnoy was awesome. I have no other complaints except the stark and glaring lack of riffs.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:00 pm 
 

For those of you who say DT lack riffs, well here's proof you're wrong.
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iAmDisturbed
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:05 pm 
 

I am and will continue to remain an unapologetic big fan of Dream Theater. I just can't stand the album most people would go as far to call their greatest; Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory but all their other work is exceptional stuff. I actually prefer Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence and Train Of Thought to Images & Words and Awake because I feel those albums are much closer to the band's own independent sound unlike earlier material (and Octavarium) where they nakedly feed off their influences.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:12 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:


Lol two minutes and its fruity synth sample, chugluga prog riffs, and Labrie sounding like an awful Euroflower singer. No thanks, but I know you were being sarcastic :drool:
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:16 pm 
 

Nope, full of great riffs and it's a metal classic. But I guess you can twist anything around to make it sound bad if you listen for things you just already don't like and exaggerate them.
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Xlxlx
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:18 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:

Petrucci has indeed written quite a few great riffs throughout DT's trajectory, but I wouldn't say that hard riffing is their forté, Emp. If anything, I find the guitar playing to be one of the less interesting aspects of the band. If I want modern prog that is also fully capable of twisting your head off with riffs, I tend to turn towards Symphony X.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:26 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Nope, full of great riffs and it's a metal classic. But I guess you can twist anything around to make it sound bad if you listen for things you just already don't like and exaggerate them.


I still don't see all I hear are a bombardment of synth samples, shallow progressive riffs, constant drum fills, and a vaguely interesting solo at around 4:38 or so. It sounds like really bad Nintendo BGM to be honest just with Labrie's almost europower vocals, and constant synth and tempo change moments that make the song grating like the rest of their dull material. Why can't they just write something engaging as in some of the material off of Octavarium (granted there are two different eras), those aren't great riffs at all though its just constant progressive chord changes. It doesn't sound horrible, just really uneventful.
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Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:38 pm 
 

Some Dream Theater songs have cool riffs. E.g ''A Fortune in Lies'', ''Afterlife'' or ''Pull Me Under'' are all pretty cool.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:43 pm 
 

No, the riffs were never the direct focus of the sound. And on later albums they'd get weaker and more in the background, but on I&W they were really well done, and the whole sound - keyboards, vocals, et. al. - was vibrant and exciting.

Octavarium is good for a different reason; more subtle and sorrowful. More atmospheric overall. They're very different albums.
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PvtNinjer
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 4:52 pm 
 

Obviously the music resonates with some people and not with others. What makes the the archetypical "prog metal" riff so shallow to you, Veracs? I admit, I was never much of a fan of this style of metal up until about a year or so ago, but something clicked with me while exploring albums outside of my comfort zone, partly out of boredom with my typical, old school styled metal affinity, and I find the interesting use of "chug" riffing to be fairly satisfying in a rhythmic way, especially when the drummer can put interesting accents underneath it all. I guess it's just a matter of what you are looking for in your music. I used to be a big riff guy (and believe me, I still am) but I find songwriting like this is satisfying, maybe in a more conventional (poppy, commercial, whatever you want to call it) way. The guitar isn't necessarily the centerpiece like in, say, a thrash band, but there to build a song. Whether you think they succeed or not is up to you. As far as technical wankery goes, I've heard worse, but that's completely up to taste, I'd say. Just FYI, I'm not a huge Dream Theater fan, in fact I've never really listened to much of them at all outside of a few of their regarded classic songs, but I hear their influence in many bands whom I enjoy.

You mention it sounds like bad BGM, which is funny. Growing up, I LOVED video game music, which I think is one of the reasons why power metal (euro power) as resonated so much with me, and maybe that's why I don't mind DT's poppy flair and gravitate towards this style of music.

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Peroy
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 am
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:37 pm 
 

The only thing I hate about DT is the stylistic change that happened on Images and Words... compared to the debut, that just wasn't "my" music anymore.

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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:48 pm 
 

Oddly enough, in contrast to all the posters who say they wank too much, my complaints are that they don't wank enough. This a complaint I have with most prog metal, modern Syphony X being the only one to avoid it for me. Basically the bands only real.strength is insane technical ability and flamboyant, meandering instrumental structures as the guitars and keys trade off back and forth, and you know what, that shit's fun! So I'm always bewildered as to why I need to sit through six minutes of sappy power ballad verse chorous nonsense, with maybe a chug riff or power chord to break up the fruitiness before I can get back to the technical bonanza we were promised. Every prog metal band does this (not many of them are actually metal by my standards for this reason) and its a pain in the ass fr all of the. DT would get itbrought up more often because they're the biggest, LaBrie's vocals are way too poor for that sort of "emotional crooning", and their lyrics are particularly poor yet go on forever.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:58 pm 
 

I have a weakness for DT's sorts of sappy, radio friendly ballads, I'll admit. They're catchy and emotive. I can dig em. Especially "Hollow years" and "Another Day."
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:01 pm 
 

I've never liked any of them. Not even one. Actually I like Take the Time if that counts, and lots of fans seem to dislike it.
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Sound Chaser
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:40 pm 
 

Though I can understand peoples' criticisms with Dream Theater, I am an unrepentant fanboy of theirs. Though they may not be without their flaws, many of the things that people dislike about them are the things that make me dig them.

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WingedOctopus
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:41 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:10 pm 
 

Gonna chime in one more time here. I think part of the Dream Theater hate that goes farther than typical dislike for a band comes from the fan base. It kind of reminds me of Tool's fan base. The (super) fans think DT occupy some higher strata than other bands.
"They could probably play circles around your favorite band. Lol pop songs are 3 or 4 minutes long DT has a 24 minute song. So heavy sound etc."

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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
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Location: Poland
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:20 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
I've never liked any of them. Not even one. Actually I like Take the Time if that counts, and lots of fans seem to dislike it.

What. Probably one of the reasons I got banned from a DT forum was regularly campaigning that this song is overrated as hell. I've heard of very, very few DT fans that dislike it.
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:22 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
Oddly enough, in contrast to all the posters who say they wank too much, my complaints are that they don't wank enough. This a complaint I have with most prog metal, modern Syphony X being the only one to avoid it for me. Basically the bands only real.strength is insane technical ability and flamboyant, meandering instrumental structures as the guitars and keys trade off back and forth, and you know what, that shit's fun! So I'm always bewildered as to why I need to sit through six minutes of sappy power ballad verse chorous nonsense, with maybe a chug riff or power chord to break up the fruitiness before I can get back to the technical bonanza we were promised. Every prog metal band does this (not many of them are actually metal by my standards for this reason) and its a pain in the ass fr all of the. DT would get itbrought up more often because they're the biggest, LaBrie's vocals are way too poor for that sort of "emotional crooning", and their lyrics are particularly poor yet go on forever.

What he said.
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:30 pm 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
lord_ghengis wrote:
I've never liked any of them. Not even one. Actually I like Take the Time if that counts, and lots of fans seem to dislike it.

What. Probably one of the reasons I got banned from a DT forum was regularly campaigning that this song is overrated as hell. I've heard of very, very few DT fans that dislike it.


I guess I've been around a lot of people saying what you said haha. I admit I don't hang around DT forums though, I don't think that sounds like much fun.
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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:41 pm 
 

Hm, I don't know, I've had some contact with various DT fans, but I can't say my knowledge is perfect or anything (especially that I've kind of avoided any major forums for a longer while now), but mostly it was the way I said and everything from I&W was surrounded with general worship.

As for DT forums... I guess it depends. Let's just say I got banned from that one for having too many wrong opinions. ;)
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Chainsaw Omega
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:39 pm 
 

I followed Dream Theater for a few albums, starting with Six Degrees, which I just relistened to all the way thrugh to refresh my opinion. Overall, the reason I lost interest with them is because they are a laborious listen. That is not to say I have the attention span of a mouse. One of my favorite albums, for instance, is Celtic Frost's Monotheist, which is quite an undertaking to listen to as well. Dream Theater has had problems with consistency, even within albums, and these things effect the flow of the music. Parts that sound grafted in, time changes for no discernible reason, etc. While I do think it's wrong to say they put virtuosity over songwriting, as they certainly have tracks that are musically simple, they do have a tendency to include ideas that don't work and to draw things out longer than they should. Is this a symptom of too many big heads in the songwriting process? Possibly, but that is just speculation. Either way though, the result is a great amount of music that when it is great, its great. But there is a vast quantity of music that just ends up being a chore to listen to, and making your listener want to skip to the "cool" part isn't what Ithink any band wants.

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Chainsaw Omega
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:51 pm 
 

Also, WingedOctopus made a good point. There are many bands that seem to have a fanbase that will show unbridled support of said band, even when that band is at their absolute worst. Dream Theater fanboys seem to be some of the worst with this type of fandom. It is baffling to be the lack of objectivity that some people have. The thing that I think gets me the most with Dream Theater fanboys is that many of them are of the opinion that musical ability and instrumental prowess are the most important thing in music, and to disagree with that is unfathomable. Well, being as I had that mentality through my early teens, I can say that this is simply not true. Listening to music is about enjoyment first and foremost. I always use a line that Devin Townsend has repeatedly said when a discussion of virtuosity comes up. "You should be good enough at your instrument to facilitate the ideas that you have in your head." He then proceeded to talk about how soloing in the context of a song rarely is actually what should be there, and I tend to agree with this analysis of virtuosity.

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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:53 pm 
 

I'd like to see some examples of dream theater hate.
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Necroticism174
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:03 am 
 

Fuck Dream Theater.

There.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:04 am 
 

:ugh:
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w0Lf
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:07 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
I'd like to see some examples of dream theater hate.
Here.

Although I'd rate the album about 25 points higher, I think Kruel's review does a good job of fleshing out what's really wrong with them: their 'progressiveness' is a superficial veneer pasted atop a mediocre power metal band.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:26 am 
 

w0Lf wrote:
their 'progressiveness' is a superficial veneer pasted atop a mediocre power metal band.


Nice try, but nope. Their sound is rooted in old 70s prog and the progressions, whether you like them or not, aren't just slapped lazily over the top of the songs. Kruel is full of shit in that review, and clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Megadeth
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:47 am 
 

If you need to find some "hate" you could just browse this topic. There are many people who has confirmed it's existance either directly or indirectly.

That review guy (Kruel) seems to hate quite a lot though. Of his 27 reviews he has given 7 albums 0%, including popular albums by Electric Wizard, Ihsahn and Deathspell Omega; he has given The Sound of Perseverance by Death 5%, Arntor by Windir 15%, Shadows in the Light by Immolation 25% and Hangman's Hymn by Sigh 30%. He has actually only one single review in the range 41%-79%. So music is either horrible or amazing for him. I don't have a problem with people hating something that other people like, but his review history seems a little fucked up. I wouldn't give his Dream Theater review too much emphasis.

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w0Lf
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:13 am 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Nice try, but nope. Their sound is rooted in old 70s prog and the progressions, whether you like them or not, aren't just slapped lazily over the top of the songs. Kruel is full of shit in that review, and clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.
You know how I think Dream Theater writes songs? First they come up tense-sounding verse and catchy chorus, and then they inject extended interludes of exotic-sounding riffs and solos to spruce up an otherwise basic song. That's what it sounds like to these ears, anyway. For what it is, they could do worse, but King Crimson, this is not.

Kruel is a better reviewer than most. I, for one, am sick of "TEH DRUM SUONDS LIEK DIS AND GIUTRS SOUND LIKE DIS AND U CAN RLY BANG UR HEAD 2 IT SOLID ALBUM 100%" type reviews.
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MrMcThrasher II
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:48 am 
 

Necroticism174 wrote:
Fuck Dream Theater.

There.

You could have given a short statement, not a fucking essay.
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lsid
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:41 am 
 

Scenes From A Memory was my first introduction to the band, and I listened to it regularly for at least 2 years and it really got me into listening to some of their earlier works. For me Images and Words and Awake are still killer albums. However I started to lose interest in the band when Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was release. Still think it is a decent album, but for me inferior to some of their earlier stuff.

By the time Train Of Thought was released, I just could not get into that album at all and to be honest I have not listened to another album of theirs since that release. During that time I discovered Pain Of Salvation and ended up spending a good few years listening to their back catalogue, then absorbing Be in 2004. I think I just lost interest in Dream Theater as I was discovering loads of other bands. Dream Theater for me kind of got lost in the mix.

Regarding James's vocals, I don' think he is the greatest vocalist out there, but I really enjoyed him on The Human Equation along with all the other vocalists. His vocals blended really well with all the others. Along with Be was the highlight of 2004 for me.

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VirginSteele_Helstar
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:09 am 
 

I actually prefer "Octavarium" onwards Dream Theater than the early material. Even "Train Of Thought" and "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" have their moments but I absolutely hate "Images and Words" and goddamn "Scenes From A Memory" whose concept is one of the weakest, most absurd to ever be translated to song. Their first album is vastly interesting and the transition to "Images and Words" really turned me off but James LaBrie is a great singer and I think he sounds much better on "Black Clouds and Silver Linings" and their 2011 album than he did on "Awake".

It is interesting however how much other metal bands praise their brilliance. I've heard with my own ears tokens of praise from members of Virgin Steele, Overkill, Megadeth, Queensryche and Pagan's Mind.
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Victor_Of_The_Void
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:24 am 
 

VirginSteele_Helstar wrote:
It is interesting however how much other metal bands praise their brilliance. I've heard with my own ears tokens of praise from members of Virgin Steele, Overkill, Megadeth, Queensryche and Pagan's Mind.


Queensryche?
I find that hard to believe. None of the DT members has spoken well about the time they did that tour with Queensryche with Fates Warning opening.

And then there was this;
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?m ... emID=50682

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VirginSteele_Helstar
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:31 am 
 

OOOH! But you see that was just Geoff Tate aka "The Man Who Singlehandedly Brought Down The Reich" being his usual mean spirited self.

Geoff Tate wrote:
The truth is that I'd never even heard DREAM THEATER until they toured with us. People compare our bands all the time but I don't hear us in what they do. We're very different animals. We're about writing songs and they're about playing a lot of notes. What I believe music is about is anathema to them.

:ugh:

Anyway, I should have clarified, it was Rockenfield and Michael Wilton who spoke well about Dream Theater. Despite Tate's comments, the bands really engaged each other exceedingly on that tour; jamming together, covering "Won't Get Fooled Again" together and so on.
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Victor_Of_The_Void
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:39 am 
 

Well other metal bands usually speak well of them because they're not douchebags like say, Geoff Tate. I also remember Blind Guardian's drummer, Frederik Ehmke mentioning Dream Theater as a key influence, the interview is included on the bonus disc of A Twist In The Myth.

I think most musicians find their music incredibly stimulating because of all the things they can do. I mentioned Petrucci's lack of riffs but if you're a guitarist, you can't deny the man's flair for writing a good solo. And drummers go on and on about Mike Portnoy.

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A_Dreamer_In_The_Theater
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:34 am 
 

I am obviously a big fan of Dream Theater and that is because I find them incredibly consistent and well rounded. No band has quite blended well the early prog rock styles of Yes and Pink Floyd and Rush with metal as DT have. Tool, Opeth and Pain of Salvation may be deemed more original but in none of them will you quite find the virtuosity that is an integral part of the Dream Theater sound. It is this element that is both their best and worst feature. People go on and on about how the music is indulgent and unnecessarily long but so was Yes and King Crimson. Progressive rock doesn't necessarily have to sound the same but it is implied that conventional structure is done away with in order to make exuberant and highly expressive music. Dream Theater have this ability in spades and if it is a bit off putting, it is only one element of their sound. They are great players but they also know how to write a song.

As regards John Petrucci's supposed failure to write riffs, it turns out that you are what you absorb! Petrucci's major influences are all "Steves and Als"; Steve Howe, Steve Morse, Steve Vai, Allan Holdsworth, Alex Lifeson and Al Di Meola. Not the biggest riff writers, are they? He wasn't so much into Tony Iommi or Van Halen so the concept of leading a song with a riff isn't his cup of tea. He is just from a different school of players, that's all. He has numerous times mentioned James Hetfield as a huge influence and James' was big on writing complex rhythms as opposed to hummable riffs especially on "Master of Puppets" and "...And Justice For All" and that is where a lot of Petrucci's riffing ideas come from. But he is also a very melodic player and the melodic part of things is integral to DT's overall sound. I think melodically is where Petucci's own singular voice as a guitarist dwells. Check out songs such as "A Change of Seasons", "Trial of Tears", "Raise The Knife", "Goodnight Kiss", "In The Name Of God", "Only A Matter Of Time" and "The Ministry Of Souls" to get a taste of that voice I'm talking about.

James LaBrie is the other member that constantly comes under fire. Personally, I think he fits the band like a glove. He is quite technical in his own way and singing over that glorious mess of music as adequately as he does is no walk in park. He possesses such a wide range that those who contest its existence need only to come see a show. He actually sounds better live these days than he ever did, he has matured immensely and has great control. He can still nail those old classics like "Innocence Faded" and "Under A Glass Moon" with ease. Russell Allen probably has better tone and Daniel Gildenlow is probably more expressive. Can't say much about Ray Alder who I think time has diminished rather than matured. But LaBrie still pulls off aggression well and does a deep and emotive tone ably, much better than his imitators like Tom Englund.

Dream Theater's lyrics are not as shabby as some might suggest. They are capable of writing profound lines-You can make a fortune in lies/You can keep a giant alive/You can ride the red/Until everybody smiles-as they are of writing preachy ones; Life is short/So learn from your mistakes/And stand behind/The choices that you make.
And they can be poetic when it serves the mood-He seems alone and silent/waiting on his hands and knees/The chill of winter's darkness sits quietly-or vague in a Yes-like fashion where the words are more for aesthetic value than literal meaning; Beneath a summer sky/Under glass moonlight/Night awaits the lamb's arrival/Liquid shadows crawl/Silver teardrops fall/The bride subsides to her survival. The point I am trying to make is that they are not just one thing lyrically. They are as capable of being awesome and profound as they are of being trite and redundant.


Last edited by A_Dreamer_In_The_Theater on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Peroy
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 am
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:58 am 
 

w0Lf wrote:
John_Sunlight wrote:
I'd like to see some examples of dream theater hate.
Here.

Although I'd rate the album about 25 points higher, I think Kruel's review does a good job of fleshing out what's really wrong with them: their 'progressiveness' is a superficial veneer pasted atop a mediocre power metal band.


Kruel's reviews never do a good job of anything...

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colin040
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:00 pm
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:14 am 
 

A_Dreamer_In_The_Theater wrote:
He actually sounds better live these days than he ever did, he has matured immensely and has great control. He can still nail those old classics like "Innocence Faded" and "Under A Glass Moon" with ease


I disagree with this. His tone sounds quite thinner nowadays (the high vocal part of ''Pull Me Under'' would be a good example) and while he's still able to burst out a strong G5-A5 here and there, there's obviously a reason why the band doesn't play the hardcore vocal sections of ''Take The Time'' or ''Voices'' anymore.

If anything, James knows when to restrain nowadays and seems to be aware of his limits. Can't say he he was aware of that in the early-mid 90s where he'd push himself a lot.

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A_Dreamer_In_The_Theater
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Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:37 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:27 am 
 

That is what I meant Colin. James has mastered great control over his voice over the years. He had some problems around the time of Metropolis but since Train of Thought, he is able to sing comfortably for those really long sets that the band does.

And he still sings "Voices" quite well in its ENTIRETY! With "Take The Time" they don't do the part where he goes wild anymore but I always thought that one sounded shrill and unnecessary.

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