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VirginSteele_Helstar
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:26 pm
Posts: 397
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:54 am 
 

HamburgerBoy wrote:
Empyreal wrote:


Honestly, I have no idea how a guy that despises Nevermore so strongly for one-note chuggery can cite that song.


But that would never be confused for a Nevermore song who although they are heavier aren't quite as dynamic with their chuggery as DT are in this song.
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Victor_Of_The_Void
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Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:19 am
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:16 am 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
Ok, so... Reverse chronological order, one per each of the last six albums (as apparently that's when the riffs started being boring). From the top of my head, some riffs which are not "boring chugging"...
On The Backs of Angels, starting from 1:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oasnbzEMV08
The Count of Tuscany, starting from 3:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4yzYKIiV9Y
The Dark Eternal Night, the whole thing is a riff monster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO3D_-xQFog
The Root of All Evil, from 1:03 onwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgAc7ekYmVA
Stream of Consciousness, right after the intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIANchfl7Z8
And my personal favourite, The Test That Stumped Them All. Pretty much everything, but my favourite starts at 0:35. Yes, it does involve some palm-muted chugging, but... just the power and driving force of this thing speaks for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3JO8awhZnA
If these still do not fit the almighty definition of decent metal riffs, I give up, I'm lost, sorry.


:lol: :headbang: Well, that's a big load!
I was riding the "they lack riffs!" bandwagon but you have some solid examples here especially the awesome "Count Of Tuscany" which has some Megadeth like riffs and when they shift the tempo, really ingenious stuff!
"The Root Of All Evil" isn't as riffy as the others but it is simply one of the best songs Dream Theater wrote. The solo where Petrucci and Rudess trade licks is great. "The Dark Eternal Night" is a waaaaaaaaaaaay better song than "Constant Motion" and "The Test That Stumps Them All" is great because he is not chugging but the keys sound so much like the guitars it is hard to separate what's what sometimes.

Really is there a song they've done as monumentally awesome as "Count of Tuscany"? It is so good because it is all encompassing; riffy, mellow, atmospheric, PROGRESSIVE!

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TheLiberation
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
Posts: 570
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:25 pm 
 

orionmetalhead wrote:
Well, considering your obvious fan-boy appreciation / defense of Dream Theater, my original statement rings true. They have a lot of fans that are total pretentious pricks. I guess birds of a flock flock together or whatever the fuck that statement goes.

You stole fizzy lifting drinks! You bumped into the ceiling which now has to be washed and sterilized so you GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY SIR!

Holy fuck, you're amazing. :lol: Classifying me as a fanboy when I'm a fan of the band but have more to say and more rational arguments than the uberhaters in this thread (who basically repeat the same bullshit over and over again, and continuously avoid replying to what I say) pretty much tells me everything about you. Do you have anything more constructive to say or are you just going to continue you're 12-year-old philosophy of "if they defend the band they're fanboys" and I can ignore you altogether?

Victor_Of_The_Void wrote:
:lol: :headbang: Well, that's a big load!
I was riding the "they lack riffs!" bandwagon but you have some solid examples here especially the awesome "Count Of Tuscany" which has some Megadeth like riffs and when they shift the tempo, really ingenious stuff!
"The Root Of All Evil" isn't as riffy as the others but it is simply one of the best songs Dream Theater wrote. The solo where Petrucci and Rudess trade licks is great. "The Dark Eternal Night" is a waaaaaaaaaaaay better song than "Constant Motion" and "The Test That Stumps Them All" is great because he is not chugging but the keys sound so much like the guitars it is hard to separate what's what sometimes.

Really is there a song they've done as monumentally awesome as "Count of Tuscany"? It is so good because it is all encompassing; riffy, mellow, atmospheric, PROGRESSIVE!

I find it amusing how you're the first person to reply to this. All the "DT riffs are just boring chugging" have somehow disappeared since.

It took me a while to fully appreciate The Count of Tuscany, I've always liked it but had some trouble staying focused throughout, but especially hearing it live changed my perspective of it a bit. I still think it wouldn't hurt if they trimmed it by 3 minutes or so, though...
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:28 pm 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
Victor_Of_The_Void wrote:
:lol: :headbang: Well, that's a big load!
I was riding the "they lack riffs!" bandwagon but you have some solid examples here especially the awesome "Count Of Tuscany" which has some Megadeth like riffs and when they shift the tempo, really ingenious stuff!
"The Root Of All Evil" isn't as riffy as the others but it is simply one of the best songs Dream Theater wrote. The solo where Petrucci and Rudess trade licks is great. "The Dark Eternal Night" is a waaaaaaaaaaaay better song than "Constant Motion" and "The Test That Stumps Them All" is great because he is not chugging but the keys sound so much like the guitars it is hard to separate what's what sometimes.

Really is there a song they've done as monumentally awesome as "Count of Tuscany"? It is so good because it is all encompassing; riffy, mellow, atmospheric, PROGRESSIVE!

I find it amusing how you're the first person to reply to this. All the "DT riffs are just boring chugging" have somehow disappeared since.


People who posted between his post and your reply: 0.
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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:00 pm 
 

I wrote that post with links to "not boring DT riffs" on Wednesday I think.
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:00 pm 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
I wrote that post with links to "not boring DT riffs" on Wednesday I think.


Since then:

Spoiler: show
Woolie_Wool wrote:


TheLiberation wrote:
As for the "just chugging and no riffs", please explain to me then what a good riff is, because I've honestly never thought there is anything missing there. And I'm pretty sure there's far more to it than just chugging.


Well since prog is under discussion...

Fates Warning - Exodus
Kingsbane - Lost in Time
King Diamond - At the Graves
Realm - The Brainchild
Elegy - The Grand Change
Dream Theater themselves, almost 30 years ago


Spoiler: show
HamburgerBoy wrote:
Empyreal wrote:


Honestly, I have no idea how a guy that despises Nevermore so strongly for one-note chuggery can cite that song.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:26 am 
 

OP, try not creating threads with titles like these. Basically it just screams, "I like Dream Theater, but rather than simply disagreeing with their detractors for the following reasons, instead I will cast critics of the band as having a position that's both incomprehensible and indefensible." If you want to have an argument or discussion about the band in which you defend them, sure, but thread titles/OP's such as these are just plain shitty.

You just happened to luck out this time because Metantoine is a fan :P
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A_Dreamer_In_The_Theater
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Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:37 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:14 am 
 

Victor_Of_The_Void wrote:
TheLiberation wrote:
Ok, so... Reverse chronological order, one per each of the last six albums (as apparently that's when the riffs started being boring). From the top of my head, some riffs which are not "boring chugging"...
On The Backs of Angels, starting from 1:55
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oasnbzEMV08
The Count of Tuscany, starting from 3:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4yzYKIiV9Y
The Dark Eternal Night, the whole thing is a riff monster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sO3D_-xQFog
The Root of All Evil, from 1:03 onwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgAc7ekYmVA
Stream of Consciousness, right after the intro
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIANchfl7Z8
And my personal favourite, The Test That Stumped Them All. Pretty much everything, but my favourite starts at 0:35. Yes, it does involve some palm-muted chugging, but... just the power and driving force of this thing speaks for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3JO8awhZnA
If these still do not fit the almighty definition of decent metal riffs, I give up, I'm lost, sorry.


:lol: :headbang: Well, that's a big load!
I was riding the "they lack riffs!" bandwagon but you have some solid examples here especially the awesome "Count Of Tuscany" which has some Megadeth like riffs and when they shift the tempo, really ingenious stuff!
"The Root Of All Evil" isn't as riffy as the others but it is simply one of the best songs Dream Theater wrote. The solo where Petrucci and Rudess trade licks is great. "The Dark Eternal Night" is a waaaaaaaaaaaay better song than "Constant Motion" and "The Test That Stumps Them All" is great because he is not chugging but the keys sound so much like the guitars it is hard to separate what's what sometimes.

Really is there a song they've done as monumentally awesome as "Count of Tuscany"? It is so good because it is all encompassing; riffy, mellow, atmospheric, PROGRESSIVE!


I would say Lines In The Sand but it is not nearly as riffy as The Count Of Tuscany but it is incredibly atmospheric and its mellow sections are very evocative. The solo Petrucci plays is the most reminiscent of David Gilmour I've ever heard although the one he played in Breaking All Illusions qualifies too.

In The Name of God is as monumentally awesome as The Count. Very dynamic riffing, big hooks and a killer solo. It is not as crushingly ambient but it has its moments and it is very progressive, in terms of how it grows too.

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Victor_Of_The_Void
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Location: South Africa
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:31 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
OP, try not creating threads with titles like these. Basically it just screams, "I like Dream Theater, but rather than simply disagreeing with their detractors for the following reasons, instead I will cast critics of the band as having a position that's both incomprehensible and indefensible." If you want to have an argument or discussion about the band in which you defend them, sure, but thread titles/OP's such as these are just plain shitty.

You just happened to luck out this time because Metantoine is a fan :P


I really don't care what it SCREAMS because those were certainly not my intentions. Do I like Dream Theater? Yes. Do I have my problems with them? Yes. Do I think they get the bum rush so often from a lot of metalheads? Yes!!! And that right there is the reason I made the thread. To get people's views on why they don't like them, if you judged from my posts that I had any ulterior motives, then please take my advice and SHOVE YOUR CYNICISM WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE-or maybe in your case it does shine there? :-P Whatever the case, post your opinion or leave the hall!

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:45 am 
 

Alright then. Dream Theater suck pretty hard. Extremely boring, too much wank.

Don't bullshit us with your claims about not having ulterior motives. Your OP has this sentence: "I find [loathing Dream Theater] a bit hard to comprehend since when anyone talks about Progressive metal, there is hardly a band out there that has taken that style or subgenre or whateveruwannacallit and owned it as Dream Theater has." Then, you go on to ask, "So I'd like to know from all you DT haters, what is it about this seemingly monumental band that puts you off". People tired of tired old "why all the hate?" threads are going to see this as obvious baiting. If you had just simply started a Dream Theater discussion thread, you would be giving critics of the band a chance to air their grievances without first casting them as incomprehensible attacks of this "seemingly monumental band." See?
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Kveldulfr
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Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:54 am 
 

DT fans won't never recognize the band's weaknesses as many people here have stated; LaBrie's suckery is well documented and plenty recognized by the band's fans; the inconsistency of their albums too, the directionless of many of the post-awake albums where the superficial complexity leaves hollow core compositions revealed... just read the damm thread.

If you pretend to pass the Petrucci's chugs as 'killer riffs', you simply need to listen real metal to begin with. Examples were given to compare how mediocre is John' riffing, the most inmediate band to compare is Fates Warning, where you can get real riffs, careful songwriting, consistent albums, etc. Also, see Woolie's post for further damage.

Now Petrucci reaching the levels of expression of Gilmour? funny one! Even Opeth's Akerfeldt can provide more heartful soloing. Have you ever heard the DT covers of Floyd? are absolutely devoided of any feeling, sorry. The guys can play the songs by the book, but they can't replicate the feeling, the aura of the songs and transmit the emotions. Just hear this 2 vids of Gilmour and Petrucci playing the same solo:

John
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtAnOuxp17c

Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDC3ade3JxU

Hear the difference? is simply HUGE.

- 0 -

In short...

Of course, nothing that we'll say will change the minds of the DT fans here, it's a pretty lost cause IMO, even if a fan wanted to know why they hated his beloved band so much and it's unable to accept the criticism asked in this thread. If the OP wanted to redeem DT responding the criticism thru his 'arguments/facts', making DT look good instead he simply lost.
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Peroy
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:20 pm 
 

Kveldulfr wrote:
DT fans won't never recognize the band's weaknesses as many people here have stated...


Why should they... ? :?

Kveldulfr wrote:
Of course, nothing that we'll say will change the minds of the DT fans here, it's a pretty lost cause IMO


Damn those people who like stuff you don't like... they're all stupid. STOOOOPID !


No, seriously, dude, pretty condescending posting right there... ... ... not cool...

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raumr
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:26 pm 
 

Then respond to his points. The way you quote Kveldulfr makes it seem as if he is just slandering the fans of DT, but he did actually list the common arguments against DT's greatness.

It's ultimately subjective, sure, but if you don't grant any assumptions at all, then why visit a "discussion forum" at all?

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Peroy
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 am
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:29 pm 
 

raumr wrote:
Then respond to his points. The way you quote Kveldulfr makes it seem as if he is just slandering the fans of DT, but he did actually list the common arguments against DT's greatness.


Yeah, but if somebody likes something, arguments don't mean shit and you're not gonna change his mind anyway.

Also, it's okay to say "I don't like DT because...", but he says between the lines "People shouldn't like DT because... and if they do anyway, they're idiots"...

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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:52 pm 
 

Fuckin' hell, Peroy. I told you to stop with this awful/0 content posts, stop being so butthurt all the time...not cool!

But yeah, this was pretty dumb: "If you pretend to pass the Petrucci's chugs as 'killer riffs', you simply need to listen real metal to begin with". The condescension of "true metalheads" needs to stop. "bah, you're grow out of it when you'll discover real metal!" Come on guys, even Riffs said that and it's total bullshit. Snob the band, ok, but don't be arrogant douchebags.

I'm about to lock the thread, prove me why it shouldn't be. Some civility, please.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:55 pm 
 

Peroy wrote:
raumr wrote:
Then respond to his points. The way you quote Kveldulfr makes it seem as if he is just slandering the fans of DT, but he did actually list the common arguments against DT's greatness.


Yeah, but if somebody likes something, arguments don't mean shit and you're not gonna change his mind anyway.

Also, it's okay to say "I don't like DT because...", but he says between the lines "People shouldn't like DT because... and if they do anyway, they're idiots"...


No.

Read the title then read my post. Many here have stated why DT is hated or not liked, then the fans comes in a fashion of 'all of you are wrong'. again, arguments were given to respond such defense of what intially was the supposedly objetive of the thread: to know why people hates the band, leading to 'what are the weakness people see in DT', pretty well documented in the thread.

Thing is that some fans can't simply accept people doesn't like their beloved band and what they find great, other people think it's shitty. I don't care if people like DT or not - even of you've been following the thread I clearly said I like some DT stuff, but even I can see why people might not.

Thing is that even if the arguments were given, a couple of guys started to claim that no one answered their 'defenses' like if there's no way to 'prove' (again, we're talking about tastes) they're wrong when many of those statements were already brought to the table.

If you wanna know why people doesn't like your fav band, you should be able to accept those claims, since are simply tastes and DT can't please to anyone. Sure, you can make some counterpoints if applies, but simply to stand in like a spoiled child goes against the thread.

Also, read this:

iamntbatman wrote:
Don't bullshit us with your claims about not having ulterior motives. Your OP has this sentence: "I find [loathing Dream Theater] a bit hard to comprehend since when anyone talks about Progressive metal, there is hardly a band out there that has taken that style or subgenre or whateveruwannacallit and owned it as Dream Theater has." Then, you go on to ask, "So I'd like to know from all you DT haters, what is it about this seemingly monumental band that puts you off". People tired of tired old "why all the hate?" threads are going to see this as obvious baiting. If you had just simply started a Dream Theater discussion thread, you would be giving critics of the band a chance to air their grievances without first casting them as incomprehensible attacks of this "seemingly monumental band." See?


Metantoine wrote:

But yeah, this was pretty dumb: "If you pretend to pass the Petrucci's chugs as 'killer riffs', you simply need to listen real metal to begin with". The condescension of "true metalheads" needs to stop. "bah, you're grow out of it when you'll discover real metal!" Come on guys, even Riffs said that and it's total bullshit. Snob the band, ok, but don't be arrogant douchebags.

.


I'm not saying that DT is 'false' metal or something. Examples of what is mostly considered good riffing were given and I was pointing it, against the - IMO - nu metal/alternative riffing that mostly plagues DT catalogue. This is something that some people don't like from the band, so it's pretty much what the OP asked for. It's not gratuitous bashing, at least it's not my intention to be so.
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Last edited by Kveldulfr on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:57 pm 
 

Peroy says he would be OK with someone just saying they don't like Dream Theater, but I don't know about that. I bet he'd find a way to get all passive aggressive and whiny about that too. Only Peroy's opinion holds water in Peroyland, apparently.

And yeah, I actually agree with the above post - the fans here are being generally more asinine than the non-fans, despite a few lame comments like Riffs' "you'll grow out of it" BS.
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Peroy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:02 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
Peroy says he would be OK with someone just saying they don't like Dream Theater, but I don't know about that. I bet he'd find a way to get all passive aggressive and whiny about that too. Only Peroy's opinion holds water in Peroyland, apparently.


I certainly would be okay with that, as I don't like them that much myself... I only hold their debut in very high regards.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:27 pm 
 

I'd like to clarify a few things on my end. As iamntbatman pointed out, the thread is specifically setup to get people who think Dream Theater are utter shit to speak up. Of course there's gonna be negativity. I don't know what the OP was hoping for or why some people are surprised. If this was about something positive regarding Dream Theater, most people who can't stand it would just ignore the thread.

You don't see me in the recent New Anacrusis album in the works thread because well, I don't think derailing a thread by just pointing out I think Anacrusis sucks ass would be very productive. No need to be be an asshole to fans who just want to discuss something going on with a band they like. Likewise, you don't see me asking why some people hate Judas Priest or Manowar, or why Master of Puppets isn't better regarded as highly as I think it should around here. It's not something I really give a shit about.

Now I want to clear something else. My "you'll grow out of it" comment which obviously wasn't well-received. My opinion that Dream Theater is sterile wankery is informed but in the end, totally subjective. I know some people here think it's not the case. Good for you.

My statement that some people and artists tend to look for flash as well as style over substance remains. And it is a lot less subjective. That shit was true before my time and it's been proven true time and time again. Most people grow out of this kind of stuff. People who refuse to see that fact have either no life experience or are really pretty fucking oblivious to that fact of life.

Is Dream Theater this kind of vapid stuff? Well, I guess that's a matter of opinion. I'm pretty sure some people really enjoy this stuff and find it meaningful somehow. If they get something out of it, good for them and nothing wrong with that. But I've known a shitload of musicians get off the DT bandwagon because they weren't and they felt it was meaningless wankery. And there's nothing wrong with that either.
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Ancient_Sorrow
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:58 pm 
 

Criticising a band with as dedicated fans as Dream Theatre is a bit like putting your dick in an ants nest; sure it's a bold statement, but ultimately, with zeal, they aren't going to let you win,

Ultimately, that's one of the things I find off-putting, a stereotype though it may be; the sheer failure to accept that some people simply don't enjoy Dream Theatre. Albeit, and I emphasise this greatly, not in the context of this thread, because this thread is about defending the band, and as such, fans are going to give reasons why the band are good, but in the wider world, it's the instance of so many people naggingly telling me how good they are as if I should feel guilty for not liking them, which makes me more and more adamant not to like them.

Of course, because this is a thread which has developed an ethos of "refute attacks on Dream Theatre", and is sort of premised on the assumption that there is an attack on Dream Theatre as a whole, I can't really criticise in this instance, and likewise, it's difficult to reach a "oh well, some people just don't like Dream Theatre" style conclusion.
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TheLiberation
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Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 12:56 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:34 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
TheLiberation wrote:
I wrote that post with links to "not boring DT riffs" on Wednesday I think.


Since then:



Spoiler: show
HamburgerBoy wrote:

Honestly, I have no idea how a guy that despises Nevermore so strongly for one-note chuggery can cite that song.

Since then one post of comparisons with completely unrelated bands, and another post that's also completely unrelated.

:lol:

I stop giving a fuck about this thread, with this being the most obvious example how much it's worth:
Quote:
DT fans won't never recognize the band's weaknesses as many people here have stated; LaBrie's suckery is well documented and plenty recognized by the band's fans; the inconsistency of their albums too, the directionless of many of the post-awake albums where the superficial complexity leaves hollow core compositions revealed... just read the damm thread.

If you're a fan and have a fuckton of carefully worded arguments in this thread - nobody cares.
If you repeat the usual "DT SUCKS AND WANKERY AND NO SUBSTANCE AND BORING RIFFS" 20000 times in something only barely resembling coherent sentences, you're a fucking demigod.

I'd rather talk to my cat, it's more productive, sorry. (Don't forget to add something about "dumb DT fans")
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Woolie_Wool
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:10 pm 
 

Kingsbane and Fates Warning are "unrelated bands"? They were Dream Theater's most prominent competitors when Dream Theater were just starting to make it big. Mike Portnoy was a huge FW fan and it showed in their early work, and Kingsbane's demos were constantly being compared favorably to Dream Theater until fate threw a big grunge-shaped monkey wrench into their career. Elegy clearly had heavy DT influence in their first two albums (and made their debut a year after Images and Words...probably not a coincidence), and Realm's work and King Diamond's Conspiracy album drew influences from many of the same prog rock bands (and from Fates Warning) as DT did.

Hey, and one of those "unrelated" songs IS a Dream Theater song, just a very old one.

Seriously, this would be like if we were discussing this about Metallica, and I posted songs by Megadeth, Anthrax, Diamond Head, Exodus, Forbidden, Heathen, and Overkill, and tossed in "Mechanix" for good measure, and you were like "oh no those are completely unrelated bands". Riiiiiiight.
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HamburgerBoy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:58 pm 
 

I don't see how my post was unrelated, although admittedly I was not the first to comment on Metropolis. FWIW I don't think they're completely "riffless" and there have been good examples to the contrary shown, but I think the main point is that their efforts at sounding particularly heavy usually are monotonous. Even that doesn't have to be a bad thing, with The Mirror for example being chock full of one-chord chuggah chug / chuggah chug / chug chuggah and doing it to a great effect thanks to how Portnoy plays with it and due to it being basically the only song of its kind on the album. On a whole I can hardly stand their discography beyond Awake, but even I can admit that most of those albums have at least one great song. They hurt themselves with unnecessary attempts to sound heavier, however.

And getting off topic a bit, but that first Elegy album despite the reviews sounds nothing like Dream Theater. It's full of 4 minute neoclassical-masturbative light-prog/power metal tracks. Oh, and checking their page again, apparently it was released one year later.

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CF_Mono
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:44 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:

People who posted between his post and your reply: 0.

Maybe people aren't bothering making specific replies in this thread because they're realizing how ridiculously pointless it is? I don't need to justify why I don't like Dream Theatre. When I think killer riffs, I think of slayer. When I think of killer shredding, I think of Paul Gilbert. When I think of weird progressive music, I think of.. well, a multitude of things. But Dream Theatre is not one of them. DT is also not one of the bands that I think of as exceptionally energetic or heavy. There are loads of bands that can do something -anything- better than DT can. Petrucci is a good player, but his skill is blown terribly out of proportion as if he's some insane virtuoso up there with Buckethead or Tosin. And that's DT's biggest problem. They're not amazing, just above average. They don't in any way write "bad" music. Disturbed or Limp Bizkit or Blood On The Dance Floor is "bad" music. But DT is so painfully "trying to be the most virtuoso-styled, different, metal, and energetic band in history", that they end up sounding like a sad and cheesy mock up of all their influences rolled up into really stale production and a lack of musical ideas... or perhaps I shouldn't say ideas, because they have a lot of musical ideas in each song, but they are all stitched together without much thought, and are inconsistent, and it results in the lack of a signature style or motif. This in turn results in the huge non-metal or non-musically-literate fanbase which only exacerbates some metalheads dislike of DT.

Perhaps that might resolve the "riffles" issue. I listened to the links pointing out DT riffs before, and felt nonplussed. It's not that the riffs aren't there, but they're just inconsistent and all over the place. There's a reason guys like say Tony iommi and Jimmy Paige are considered the king of the riff, and that's because they know how to take the riffs they've written and accent them in the proper way to make the song have enough meat and be memorable yet technical at the same time.
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Veracs
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:53 am 
 

Woolie_Wool wrote:
Kingsbane and Fates Warning are "unrelated bands"? They were Dream Theater's most prominent competitors when Dream Theater were just starting to make it big.


Crimson Glory had two full lengths about by the time Dream theater started out. Why leave them out especially since they are a better band?
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somefella
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:05 am 
 

Here's another snippet to chew on regarding the band's fans. Most that I know(who have't grown out of it yet but are probably gonna) like to think that if anyone doesn't like the material, it's because they don't understand it rather than they just don't fucking like it. The above posts pretty much prove it.

And major lols to whoever posted a bunch of YouTube links, going "I have thus proved that DT have good riffs". You might as well say Green Day have interesting riffing because 21 Guns uses the pop-4 chords differently from most pop-rock bands, ascending, then descending, then ascending again. Which is EXACTLY how DT fans sound. "See, the riff does this, and then that, and then this again! You don't like it cuz you don't see all of this!"

And btw, I am a musician myself and I honestly see NOTHING about any of their members that make them anything more than above-average or pretty good. Looking at how John Petrucci plays Disposable Heroes live, his riffing is certainly tight and clean, but the aggression and heaviness is at an absolute zero.
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plasticpope
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:26 am 
 

I once was the vocalist in a thrash/death metal band, the lead guitarist was phenomenal and was the youngest guitar teacher in my state in australia, he had something along these lines to say about dream theater, James Labrie in particular.

'James Labrie sounds like a dying cat... that is perfectly in tune and key'
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:18 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
My statement that some people and artists tend to look for flash as well as style over substance remains. And it is a lot less subjective. That shit was true before my time and it's been proven true time and time again. Most people grow out of this kind of stuff. People who refuse to see that fact have either no life experience or are really pretty fucking oblivious to that fact of life.


Hmm, I gotta disagree with you here. I've met/talked to loads of old dudes who are totally into the tech/virtuosity side of things to a ludicrous degree. I don't think there's really any link to maturity or anything like that - some people are just really fascinated by musical proficiency, sometimes to a degree that they let that drive their musical preference to a higher degree than things like catchy riffs/melodies/whatever. Sorta the same way some people are endlessly fascinated with how "original" or "unique" certain bands are or were and value that above other things.

To improve the general mood of the thread: can we all agree that, regardless of our levels of DT fandom or apathy, they're still better than Iced Earth?
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:29 am 
 

Can't make that comparison. Completely different styles of metal.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:32 am 
 

No they definitely are better than Iced Earth.
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doomster999
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:17 pm 
 

I agree with Subrick, even though Iced Earth has some progressive traits they aren't really comparable to DT.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:39 pm 
 

Fates Warning-Arch/Matheos are probably the closer you can compare to DT. Both are way superior IMO.

That aside, Symphony X and Pagan's Mind might work for comparisons? Early Queensryche?
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:49 pm 
 

I'd say Symphony X is a bit better to compare to Dream Theater past 2000 when the latter started getting heavier.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:52 pm 
 

It's not about finding apples to apples comparisons. I think it's safe to compare apples to oranges when they're a) at least both fruit and b) the apple is whatever but the orange is full of dog shit.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:42 pm 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
It's not about finding apples to apples comparisons. I think it's safe to compare apples to oranges when they're a) at least both fruit and b) the apple is whatever but the orange is full of dog shit.


:lol: You should post more often.

Dream Theater isn't really much like FW or Queensryche, or Crimson Glory for that matter...it's more like Yes with heavier guitars.
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TheLiberation
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:22 pm 
 

somefella wrote:
Here's another snippet to chew on regarding the band's fans. Most that I know(who have't grown out of it yet but are probably gonna) like to think that if anyone doesn't like the material, it's because they don't understand it rather than they just don't fucking like it. The above posts pretty much prove it.

And major lols to whoever posted a bunch of YouTube links, going "I have thus proved that DT have good riffs". You might as well say Green Day have interesting riffing because 21 Guns uses the pop-4 chords differently from most pop-rock bands, ascending, then descending, then ascending again. Which is EXACTLY how DT fans sound. "See, the riff does this, and then that, and then this again! You don't like it cuz you don't see all of this!"

And btw, I am a musician myself and I honestly see NOTHING about any of their members that make them anything more than above-average or pretty good. Looking at how John Petrucci plays Disposable Heroes live, his riffing is certainly tight and clean, but the aggression and heaviness is at an absolute zero.

It would be simpler if in fact a large part of the "anti-fans" simply said they don't fucking like the band instead of coming up with a bloated pseudo-ideology which basically, summed up, tries to prove they're the worst band that ever existed in the universe and beyond. The above posts pretty much prove it.

I have not proved they have good riffs, because a) I know that even trying to prove that to some of the people here who are incapable of coming up with anything smarter than "they suck because wankery" is not even a lost cause, it's like trying to repeatedly headbutt a wall; b) I actually think "good riffs" are subjective unlike what some people here are trying to say (or more like, enforce).

I have just tried to prove that the claim that John Petrucci's riffs are "just boring chugging" is total bullshit, and I'm pretty sure I did at least a decent job at it.

And anyway, your post is yet another case of "I can't simply say I dislike the band, I FUCKING HAVE TO ATTACH A MASSIVE IDEOLOGY TO IT", so... yeah.

Short version: most of the "haters" in this thread do exactly the kind of thing they accuse DT fans of doing.

Wait, why am I visiting this thread again...
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:29 pm 
 

Empyreal wrote:
No they definitely are better than Iced Earth.

Well they both started out around the same time (mid-'80s), hit their peak around the same time (1991-92) and went to shit around the same time (1995-99). I'd say Dream Theater was in their prime better than Iced Earth, and Falling into Infinity's listenable half is better than Something Wicked This Way Comes' listenable half, but the trajectories of their careers are remarkably similar.

Kveldulfr wrote:
Pagan's Mind might work for comparisons?

I have Infinity Divine and the only memorable song on that album is "At the Graves", which just so happens to be the only song on the album that they didn't write. But at least they're a very nice King Diamond cover band.

EDIT: I guess they're pretty good at Stargate SG-1 cosplay too.
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joppek
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:59 am 
 

TheLiberation wrote:
It would be simpler if in fact a large part of the "anti-fans" simply said they don't fucking like the band instead of coming up with a bloated pseudo-ideology


the whole point of the thread is for people who don't like the band to explain why they don't like the band
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