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wEEman33
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:12 pm
Posts: 106
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:38 pm 
 

So I am listening to Symphony X's "Divine Wings of Tragedy" for the first time, and it is shameful that the main theme of this song is ripped straight out of Gustav Holst's "Mars, the Bringer of War," which is the opening movement of Holst's "The Planets" suite.

There is not a single mention of Holst anywhere in the credits, either. The booklet reads, "all music: Romeo, Pinnella, Miller." ALL MUSIC, MY ASS. YOU STOLE THE MAIN THEME FROM A 100-YEAR-OLD COMPOSER!

Symphony X is not the only band to steal from Holst, either, as that same year (1997), Nile put out their "Ramses Bringer of War" demo, which again, lifts its opening sequence right out of the Holst's "Mars." At least Karl Sanders gives some acknowledgement to Holst with the title of the song, but again, if you look at the booklet notes, all credits for that song are given to Nile, and Holst is not named at all in the liner notes.

If you're going to outright steal from a dead composer, at least have the balls to acknowledge it, ala Bathory on the song "Hammerheart." Quoting from the "Twilight of the Gods" booklet:

"All music written by Quorthon except Hammerheart, excerpt from Gustav Holst, The Planets Op 32. of 1914. Rearranged by Quorthon for Bathory/Black Mark Production 1991."

That is how you pay credit to your source material, kids.

I am sure there are other thieves out there trying to pass this excellent piece of music off as their own work. What else am I missing?


Last edited by wEEman33 on Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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absurder21
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:52 pm 
 

It's possibly because most of that stuff is Public Domain. It would be better if they credited him yeah, but they also don't have too. Plus, bands like to put in these kinda of little nods to see if someone gets it. Don't see any of these songs particularly being the thing that actually set them into the spotlight either, so freaking out over it isn't exactly necessary. If anything, extreme metal musicians borrow from each other a hell of a lot more then 100 year old dead composers.

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The_Minstrel51
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:55 pm 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwcRXbVC4k8

:headbang:
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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
Posts: 431
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:22 pm 
 

wEEman33 wrote:
If you're going to outright steal from a dead composer, at least have the balls to acknowledge it, ala Bathory on the song "Hammerheart." Quoting from the "Twilight of the Gods" booklet:

"All music written by Quorthon except Hammerheart, excerpt from Gustav Holst, The Planets Op 32. of 1914. Rarranged by Quorthon for Bathory/Black Mark Production 1991."

That is how you pay credit to your source material, kids.


Quorthon was/is a seriously decent fellow. Metal is impoverished without him.

Didn't Metallica lift this for "Am I Evil?"
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wEEman33
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:12 pm
Posts: 106
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:34 pm 
 

Diamond Head was the band who wrote "Am I Evil?" Metallica just covered it.

But yes, that would be another song that blatantly borrows its opening from "Mars."

I do not own a copy of "Lightning to the Nations," so I don't know how much credit, if any, Diamond Head gives to Holst.

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MARSDUDE
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:17 pm
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Location: Canardia
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:51 pm 
 

King Crimson, though not metal, also used Mars for one of their songs. 'The Devil's Triangle'.

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Twisted_Psychology
Veteran

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:45 pm 
 

I thought there was just an unspoken agreement that Mars: Bringer Of War must be ripped off by every metal band ever. The real challenge is finding ripoffs for the other sequences.
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Conservationism
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:33 pm 
 

Sounds like a concept/compilation album...
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The_Beast_in_Black
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:34 am
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:05 pm 
 

I'm pretty sure that the main theme of Mars is just so widespread in public consciousness that you might as well be whining about people using Toccata and Fugue uncredited in haunted house movies.
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Goatfangs
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:19 pm 
 

Not just metal bands - video games too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzeldNzeFPU
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Lightsbane
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:17 am
Posts: 232
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:28 pm 
 

Ramses Bringer of War by Nile. Don't know if Holst is credited in the liner notes but I would assume so

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FantomLord17
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:41 pm
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Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:37 pm 
 

Goatfangs wrote:
Not just metal bands - video games too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzeldNzeFPU

This.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TO0N4KxzPE
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Morton Salt
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Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:25 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:54 pm 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X1DnL03TZE

Does the intro to that song count too?

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wEEman33
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:12 pm
Posts: 106
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:44 pm 
 

Lightsbane wrote:
Ramses Bringer of War by Nile. Don't know if Holst is credited in the liner notes but I would assume so


You would think so, but no, there is not a single mention of Holst anywhere in the album credits or the liner notes. "All songs by Nile" is all that's written, which clearly is a lie.

Funnily enough with Symphony X, their very next album, "Twilight In Olympus," has a song called "Sonata" that is credited as "Based on a theme from Sonata #8 in c minor by Ludwig van Beethoven" in the liner notes.

So Symphony X is willing to give Beethoven credit for a pointless one-minute filler track yet they will not give a lick of credit to Holst for providing the central theme to their 20-minute "masterwork" (:rollseyes:) from the previous album.

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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:05 am 
 

What if they were ripping it off from another metal band, and never knew the original was Holst?
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Zerberus
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:26 am 
 

I think there's also another song by Symphony X where they rip off Dies Irae. I think it was the intro for V: The New Mythology Suite
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despotband
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Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 92
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:48 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
What if they were ripping it off from another metal band, and never knew the original was Holst?


That is quite possible.
Musical quotation is a very contrived subject in our world of intellectual property and copyright. Quotation is not the same as ripping off a piece of music. But the differences can be very subtle though. Anyways, it's a lot more elegant to credit the original author of your quotations, like Quorthon and King Crimson did (they even wanted to name their Devil's Triangle song 'Mars', but weren't allowed) but like it's been said before, you don't really have to.

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despotband
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Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:02 am
Posts: 92
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:02 am 
 

Keith Emerson still gets a lot of hate for quoting Bach on the "Knife Edge" song off of ELP's first album without citing the source. In that same album, they did a version of Bartok's Allegro Barbaro which was properly attributed (The Barbarian, first track). But seriously, what he did on "Knife Edge" was a small quotation of a section of Bach's BWV 812, not a fully-realized arrangement of that tune. Knife Edge itself is based off another modern classical work, by a composer whose name I forgot, but I know it's from the 1920's. That is also attributed.

I seriously don't think Keith Emerson thought: "Haha, I'm going to slap this Bach section into my solo and the suckers are going to think this is mine". He simply assumed everyone, or most everyone, would recognize the section as being from Bach, due to Bach's very distinguished style. This is what happens with most Metal bands and Holst (and other composers), IMO.

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ENKC
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Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:28 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:22 am 
 

Settle down, dude. An obvious tribute or influence is not always "ripping off". I doubt Holst is losing sleep over it at this point in time.

Hell, Iommi himself has said that the infamous tritone riff of Black Sabbath was inspired by "Mars". I've heard perhaps half a dozen direct uses of it as well.
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Zerberus
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:29 pm
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Location: Silkeborg, Denmark
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:12 am 
 

despotband wrote:
He simply assumed everyone, or most everyone, would recognize the section as being from Bach, due to Bach's very distinguished style. This is what happens with most Metal bands and Holst (and other composers), IMO.


I think you're right and that this is the case with most situations where bands "rip off" a classical piece or something otherwise easily distinguishable
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Lexa
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Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 1:22 pm
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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:50 am 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46_OGyVkIig

How about this one?

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maladie
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:42 am
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:06 pm 
 

Holst gets CONSTANTLY ripped off in all types of music, and especially in film music. You can honestly hear a lot of familiar Holst-sounding things in compositions by Howard Shore, Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, etc, etc, etc. It's really just become a non-issue at this point.
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Thiestru
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Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2008 9:18 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:53 pm 
 

It's obviously a tribute to Holst. They're not trying to pass it off as their own music. That's one of the most widely-quoted themes in Western music, and the whole 'bringer of war' theme blatantly acknowledges its source. Get a fucking clue.
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Conservationism
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Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:50 pm 
 

If a band rips off something, and then you rip it off from them, do you have to cite the original source?
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Terri23
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2010 3:53 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:10 am 
 

Bands and musicians have been ripping each other off for as long as musical instruments have been practiced. Metal bands wil steal riffs, solos, even lyrics from other artists all the time. Classical music is often used because it is public domain, and as such does not need to be acknowledged or paid royalty fees.

In 8 years, the entire Beatles catalogue will become public domain. Music as you know it will never be the same again.
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Opus
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:03 am 
 

Terri23 wrote:
In 8 years, the entire Beatles catalogue will become public domain. Music as you know it will never be the same again.

I believe there's too much money involved for this to happen, sadly.

"Love Me Do" and its B-side, "P.S. I Love You," were released in 1962, protection for the tracks expired on December 31st, 2012.
Although a move is underway to extend recording copyrights to 70 years, ...

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ ... e-20130112
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ForNaught
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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:37 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:52 am 
 

Symphony X already (sort of) addressed this, actually-- not Holst in particular, but their habit of referencing classical pieces in general.

Quote:
Will you ever credit the classical pieces you use in your music?

MICHAEL ROMEO - This issue has recently been brought to our attention. From time to time we have used different sections of classical music in our songs. We figured people would immediately recognize this. In the end of Death of Balance, we incorporated the Lacrymosa from Mozart's Requiem.....now, most people we talk with say "I like how you guys used the Mozart there." - incorporating the old and the new. ( anyone who saw Amadeus knows this )...So we figured this was obvious to everyone. We are not trying to "be sneaky" or "claiming credit" or anything like that. We thought people would realize this..as a given. But anyway... now it is brought to our attention, and we recognize AND totally respect this. So " yes" we will pay more attention to this and if we do use something, of course we will credit it.



From here.
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