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Acidgobblin
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 2234
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:40 pm 
 

matras wrote:
You would hope that, but sadly things aren't that easy. Fact of the matter is that Varg (and subsequently the people here saying they agree with him), think that fair skinned people are of a totally different species, and that there is no "humanity" in common among the different ethnic groups. People can dislike immigrants left and right, and while I might strongly disagree, and despise their views, spouting that people with an ethnicity from Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Africa (or anything "not white") have more in common with apes than so called "white people" (or "true Europeans" as mister Vikernes calls it) is just something I can't let go uncommented, or rationalise with "hurrhurr he's crazy funny". Especially when people in these forums say they agree with him and understand him. Hell, he's even saying that the "leftist jewish hippies" have managed to fool the world that the Mesopotamians and Egyptians weren't white.



I understand what you are saying, but these people making those statements are literally objectively, scientifically incorrect. That gives me hope.
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Acidgobblin
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
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Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:48 am 
 

Chaosmonger wrote:
Also, I've bought the last three Burzums from the local (independent) store so the label or whoever already got their money by the time I buy it.


That's a very bad attempt at burying your head in the sand there. Regardless of how you may see it, when you buy a Burzum album, Varg is receiving money from that sale.

I've certainly paid for Burzum albums myself, so no judgement there. In the grand scale of evil in this world, Varg Vikernes is relatively low. With that said, I don't feel especially comfortable supporting this guy at all; coupled with the fact I believe he has been making sub par music since his inception, I can be at ease knowing that I won't buy any more of his material, and moreover, won't be missing out on much at all.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
Posts: 1623
Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:52 pm 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
In the grand scale of evil in this world, Varg Vikernes is relatively low.

He... um... is a remorseless killer on top of being a racist anti-semitic nutbar.

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Veracs
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 1893
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:14 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
In the grand scale of evil in this world, Varg Vikernes is relatively low.

He... um... is a remorseless killer on top of being a racist anti-semitic nutbar.


What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with evil?
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Malignanthrone wrote:

Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

Under_Starmere wrote:
Manowar aren't the Kings of Metal. They're pretenders to a throne that doesn't exist.!

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henkkjelle
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Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2011 3:54 pm
Posts: 3018
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:18 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
Acidgobblin wrote:
In the grand scale of evil in this world, Varg Vikernes is relatively low.

He... um... is a remorseless killer on top of being a racist anti-semitic nutbar.


Um.... He served his sentence, and his personal opinion -no matter how wrong and stupid- isn't hurting anyone.
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Megadeth
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 474
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:45 pm 
 

Veracs wrote:
BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
He... um... is a remorseless killer on top of being a racist anti-semitic nutbar.


What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with evil?

What does anything have to do with being evil? To my knowledge there's not really any such thing as "true evil", but considering Acidgobblin's is imagining such a scale we can make a general conclusion that "bad actions" are signs of "evil", for the sake of this discussion. You didn't object to murder as being a sign of "evil", so I don't see how being "a racist anti-semitic nutbar" shouldn't, and being a hateful racist person, be it anti-Semitic or anything else, makes you unsympathetic, narrow-minded, ignorant and arrogant; and it's all at the cost of other innocent people, to the extent where it has cost millions of lives.

henkkjelle wrote:
Um.... He served his sentence, and his personal opinion -no matter how wrong and stupid- isn't hurting anyone.

He was just expressing his personal opinion. What makes you so special that you are allowed to judge him, when he can't judge Varg?

And how is it not hurting anyone? How does millions of people die because of racism? Here is how: By people sharing their opinion, spreading irrational fears and hate towards groups of people, because of ethnicity or nationality. And Varg is using his celebrity status for this exact purpose.


Last edited by Megadeth on Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:48 pm 
 

I know he was just expressing his opinion. So am I.

edit. Look, I know Varg killed a human being, and I also know he's a horrible racist bigot. But he served his sentence, and I can't recall him starting a murder spree after his release. Calling him a remorseless killer seems a bit much to me.

edit 2. Yes, his opinion may inspire people, but we still have a thing called free speech.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Joined: Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:42 am
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:02 pm 
 

But he is a remorseless killer. He has, to this day, claimed that even though Euronymous just happened to fall on 22 knife shaped broken glass (or fell on one piece 22 times, I suppose), he deserved to die. He is literally without remorse for murdering someone, and given how strong his anti-semitic and racial beliefs are, and how Euronymous was a known communist, it's likely that his politics helped him come to the decision. How much arbitrary time he served for murder means nothing as it's clearly not changed him.

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Megadeth
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 474
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:09 pm 
 

henkkjelle wrote:
Yes, his opinion may inspire people, but we still have a thing called free speech.

That is to avoid people being prosecuted by the government for their opinions and expressions (with a few exception, like threats); not to make other people accept their ramblings or even respect their opinions. I don't think anyone here has suggested that he should be incarcerated for what he has said, so free speech isn't really relevant.

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henkkjelle
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:20 pm 
 

BaloroftheEvilEye wrote:
But he is a remorseless killer. He has, to this day, claimed that even though Euronymous just happened to fall on 22 knife shaped broken glass (or fell on one piece 22 times, I suppose), he deserved to die. He is literally without remorse for murdering someone, and given how strong his anti-semitic and racial beliefs are, and how Euronymous was a known communist, it's likely that his politics helped him come to the decision. How much arbitrary time he served for murder means nothing as it's clearly not changed him.


Wowzers, I just realised I'm sort of defending Varg.

Look, I agree, his sentence probably hasn't changed his views and his outlook on the things that happened, but as it stands he's a free man. He hasn't hurt or killed anyone since his release, and until he does it again, calling him a great evil seems to harsh.

@Megadeth

I didn't say anything about accepting/respecting his views. I don't accept/respect them either. It's more about respecting his right to voice his views.
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BaloroftheEvilEye
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Location: Ireland
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:44 pm 
 

I get where you're coming from, but he is what he is. If he came out of prison a completely different guy, I could put it down to a heated moment sort-of-thing, but in all these years, Varg's opinions, though not his actions, have only gotten worse, if anything.

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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:21 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with evil?

Are you joking?
I'm thinking about sigging this for stupid.
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Veracs
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:38 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Veracs wrote:
What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with evil?

Are you joking?
I'm thinking about sigging this for stupid.


It's a serious question, someone can be anti-Semitic, and not be evil. Varg killed someone I can understand how people can believe that's an obviously evil act, but just because someone hold's a belief that you find unsavory it doesn't make them an evil person? Or is anyone that doesn't believe similarly to you "Evil"?
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Malignanthrone wrote:

Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

Under_Starmere wrote:
Manowar aren't the Kings of Metal. They're pretenders to a throne that doesn't exist.!

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Megadeth
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:49 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
It's a serious question, someone can be anti-Semitic, and not be evil. Varg killed someone I can understand how people can believe that's an obviously evil act, but just because someone hold's a belief that you find unsavory it doesn't make them an evil person? Or is anyone that doesn't believe similarly to you "Evil"?

It should be pretty obvious in a modern civilized society that racist prejudice isn't something that can be both good and bad. Name some examples in which it is good to be a racist bigot.

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Peroy
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:44 am
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:49 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Veracs wrote:
What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with evil?

Are you joking?
I'm thinking about sigging this for stupid.


I second the sigging.

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Veracs
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:54 am 
 

Megadeth wrote:
Veracs wrote:
It's a serious question, someone can be anti-Semitic, and not be evil. Varg killed someone I can understand how people can believe that's an obviously evil act, but just because someone hold's a belief that you find unsavory it doesn't make them an evil person? Or is anyone that doesn't believe similarly to you "Evil"?

It should be pretty obvious in a modern civilized society that racist prejudice isn't something that can be both good and bad. Name some examples in which it is good to be a racist bigot.


Inhumanist made a brainless statement about equating a person's personal belief with the word "Evil" which is highly subjective, especially when dealing with an individual's beliefs which have no effect on another's life. He can sig my statement all he wants I don't really give a fuck.
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Malignanthrone wrote:

Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

Under_Starmere wrote:
Manowar aren't the Kings of Metal. They're pretenders to a throne that doesn't exist.!

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Necessitarian
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
Posts: 147
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:55 am 
 

Megadeth wrote:
Veracs wrote:
It's a serious question, someone can be anti-Semitic, and not be evil. Varg killed someone I can understand how people can believe that's an obviously evil act, but just because someone hold's a belief that you find unsavory it doesn't make them an evil person? Or is anyone that doesn't believe similarly to you "Evil"?

It should be pretty obvious in a modern civilized society that racist prejudice isn't something that can be both good and bad. Name some examples in which it is good to be a racist bigot.

Good for what? It would be a pretty good thing for your own safety and sense of belonging to be a racist bigot if you lived around and extensively communicated with racist bigots, for example.

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Megadeth
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:57 am 
 

Necessitarian wrote:
Good for what? It would be a pretty good thing for your own safety and sense of belonging to be a racist bigot if you lived around and extensively communicated with racist bigots, for example.

Good for the society/humanity as a whole (everyone affected), which is what ethics pretty much is about. That argument is so full of shit. It is good because you can do it if it's cool? Then you can justify anything. Rape, murder, mutilation, genocide, torture.

Veracs wrote:
Inhumanist made a brainless statement about equating a person's personal belief with the word "Evil" which is highly subjective, especially when dealing with an individual's beliefs which have no effect on another's life. He can sig my statement all he wants I don't really give a fuck.

It's not a personal belief. It's on the contrary an obvious conclusion if one is to consider anything but personal beliefs. You're the one who's equating only your personal beliefs here.


Last edited by Megadeth on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Necessitarian
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:00 am 
 

You wanted an example. What's good for the society as a whole isn't necessarily good for each and every individual. Who said anything about cool.

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Megadeth
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:02 am 
 

Necessitarian wrote:
You wanted an example. What's good for the society as a whole isn't necessarily good for each and every individual. Who said anything about cool.

I wanted a real world example that supports your claim in a rational way. What you're saying is basically that it's cool, that you can do it for the sense of belonging in a group. I just edited my post to include "everyone affected", not just society as a whole.

Good for every individual is another shitty argument. It is good for single individuals to rob, rape and kill. Who cares if I kill you? If I'd appreciate it, it would be a good act? It's as if you have no understanding of ethics and no empathy.


Last edited by Megadeth on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Necessitarian
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:05 am 
 

It would be a good act for you if it made you feel good, yes. I was just nitpicking on your use of the word 'good'.

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Megadeth
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:07 am 
 

Necessitarian wrote:
It would be a good act for you if it made you feel good, yes. I was just nitpicking on your use of the word 'good'.

Well, in the context of this discussion, good vs. evil, good actions vs. bad actions, it should be pretty obvious what is meant by good. We're talking about ethics here, not personal satisfaction.

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Necessitarian
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:10 am 
 

Many things that should be pretty obvious somehow aren't that to me. :)

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Veracs
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:14 am 
 

Megadeth wrote:
It's not a personal belief. It's on the contrary an obvious conclusion if one is to consider anything but personal beliefs. You're the one who's equating only your personal beliefs here.


Kind of sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. I never once evinced anything about my personal beliefs, I am just asking in what way is an individual's prejudiced ideas evil if they are not affecting anyone or causing bodily harm. Inhumanist cavalierly hinted to the notion that prejudiced ideals are evil without any evidence. Let me restate the initial premise for you: In what way is holding Anti-Semitic views evil?. To add to this the quite normal circumstance of not having committed any acts of aggression or any criminal harm to another individual?
Megadeth wrote:
Necessitarian wrote:
It would be a good act for you if it made you feel good, yes. I was just nitpicking on your use of the word 'good'.

Well, in the context of this discussion, good vs. evil, good actions vs. bad actions, it should be pretty obvious what is meant by good. We're talking about ethics here, not personal satisfaction.


I am not referring to any actions either, merely thoughts that have absolutely no bearing on any other human being.
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Malignanthrone wrote:

Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

Under_Starmere wrote:
Manowar aren't the Kings of Metal. They're pretenders to a throne that doesn't exist.!

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Megadeth
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
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Location: Norway
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:29 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
I never once evinced anything about my personal beliefs, I am just asking in what way is an individual's prejudiced ideas evil if they are not affecting anyone or causing bodily harm. Inhumanist is cavalierly hinting to the notion that prejudiced ideals are evil without any evidence. Let me restate the initial premise for you: In what way is being Anti-Semitic evil?

In what way are racist bigots not affecting anyone or causing bodily harm? The only logical conclusion of having strong opinions about something is that you want them fulfilled. Give them some sort of power and you will see harm be done. It happens from time to time that people ends up in situations where they have power over other people, either as a police or any other sort of officer, work employer, a fight, a politician, etc. Decisions are constantly made on the background of such things. In a similar situation Varg would have affected someone or caused bodily harm.

This is not a case of "thought crime", because it has real world effects, and people like Varg are urging other people to do the same. He's urging his readers to discredit people because of ethnicity or nationality. I'm not one who considers pedophile thoughts as a crime. But if a pedophile intrudes upon or abuse children, share or download child pornography, or are urging others to live out their sexual fantasies, either directly or indirectly, then he is in fact doing harm, even though he might not be the one actively hurting someone (as in the case of sharing video). A person with pedophile thoughts is to begin with a victim, which can very quickly turn into an offender. A racist bigot is first of all not a victim, and is secondly not just living with the thoughts; a racist bigot is per definition outspoken about it; a racist bigot is not a neutral person just guilty of "thought crime".

If I write page after page about women's lesser value, how they don't deserve the same rights or equality, that they should only do this or that, then I'm not an "innocent person expressing my opinion which is just as good as any others' opinion". It is obviously intended to do indirect harm upon women.

What other intention does people like Varg have, other than to lower the rights or status of different ethnic groups to do real world effects or cause bodily harm? To claim any other thing that this is the goal would be illogical.


Last edited by Megadeth on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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inhumanist
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:44 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
Inhumanist made a brainless statement about equating a person's personal belief with the word "Evil" which is highly subjective, especially when dealing with an individual's beliefs which have no effect on another's life. He can sig my statement all he wants I don't really give a fuck.

No I didn't, you just presume that bullshit. I said that your post, which was questioning the connection between antisemitism and the (let's just say common) notion of evil, was stupid.

Just for clarity:
Veracs wrote:
What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with evil?

Let's answer that question, shall we?
Spoiler: show
Image
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Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
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Veracs
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:54 am 
 

Megadeth wrote:
In what way are racist bigots not affecting anyone or causing bodily harm? The only logical conclusion of having strong opinions about something is that you want them fulfilled. Give them some sort of power and you will see harm be done. It happens from time to time that people ends up in situations where they have power over other people, either as a police or any other sort of officer, work employer, a fight, a politician, etc. Decisions are constantly made on the background of such things. In a similar situation Varg would have affected someone or caused bodily harm.


You admit tacitly that there is an initial threshold that must be crossed in order for these inert purported "desires", once again there are thousands of politically isolated idiots on both sides of the ideological spectrum whose "evil opinions/ideals" will never go into fruition simply because they are just that ideas. You're average individual's ideas pose no threat to another individual as they wield no great political power and so long as they aren't causing bodily harm remain just that feverish notions. I don't think your average poster on Stormfront would ever go out and kill someone in the name of White power or any other crazed ideals, simply because your average man's circumstances don't avail them the ability to control people in the fashion as you've stated. As for the Varg's of the world when they cross the line, its the act that is prosecuted and not their ideology.

Quote:
This is not a case of "thought crime", because it has real world effects, and people like Varg are urging other people to do the same. He's urging his readers to discredit people because of ethnicity or nationality. I'm not one who considers pedophile thoughts as a crime. But if you intrude upon or abuse children, share or download child pornography, or are urging others to live out their sexual fantasies, either directly or indirectly, then you are in fact doing harm, even though he might not be the one actively hurting someone. A person with pedophile thoughts is to begin with a victim, which can very quickly turn into an offender. A racist bigot is first of all not a victim, and is secondly not just living with the thoughts; a racist bigot is per definition outspoken about it; he's not a neutral person just guilty of "thought crime".


This doesn't answer my question. As I stated an individual that merely has an opinion and causes no bodily harm to another is committing no crime. Your average vaguely inclined racial politics subscriber isn't stabbing someone between the eyes with a butcher knife, nor is he "urging other people to do the same" I'm talking about your average man with his own idiotic opinion. If his ideals are as stated in a vacuum and he is looking at sites like Stormfront, and just inflaming himself to fulfill his own ideological biases with propaganda and grows out of it like most people do he isn't doing you any disservice either directly or indirectly. Your hypothetical situations do you no justice.

Quote:
If I write pages of pages about women's lesser value, how they don't deserve the same rights or equality, that they should only do this or that, then I'm not innocent. That's not simply "an opinion which is just as good as any", but is obviously intended to do harm upon women — in this case indirectly.


If you write that article- then you write an article. So what? You aren't causing any harm, and chances are you're taking cues from other articles of similar minded politically motivated individuals who've stated similar sentiments that will ultimately not do any damage in the same vast sea of conflicting ideologies and political propaganda. The onus is on you to prove their intent once again.
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Malignanthrone wrote:

Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

Under_Starmere wrote:
Manowar aren't the Kings of Metal. They're pretenders to a throne that doesn't exist.!

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Veracs
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:57 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Just for clarity:
Veracs wrote:
What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with evil?

Let's answer that question, shall we?
Spoiler: show
Image


:roll: Yes Hitler was a very evil man, but let me repeat it for you. What does being anti-Semitic have anything to do with being evil. You're conflating his atrocious acts of murder with prejudicial notions other people have and not providing any other bridge of thought other than a picture of Hitler. When has the average anti-Semitic individual whose ideas exist in a political vacuum killed six million people?
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Malignanthrone wrote:

Thing is, Suicide Silence actually are more sonically massive than a good 95% of all the death metal bands in the Archives! Not metal, sure, but definitely a lot more brutal.

Under_Starmere wrote:
Manowar aren't the Kings of Metal. They're pretenders to a throne that doesn't exist.!

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:04 am 
 

Hitler is an example for what being anti-semitic has to do with evil. The fact that some pedophiles don't fuck children doesn't mean pedophila does not lead to fucking children or has nothing to do with fucking children.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
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Last edited by inhumanist on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Megadeth
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:11 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
yada yada yada

You're not really answering my bottom line point, but focusing on single arguments out of context. What else is the point of expressing racist thoughts, especially in organized forms, than to eventually cause such harm that you claim it doesn't do.

You argue as if hiring a hitman to murder someone is just the hitman's fault. Or is it different because there's money involved? What if he does it for free? What if the man hiring him doesn't say it directly, but is hinting towards it? What if he's just "expressing his opinion" about who should be dead, and he happened to talk to a hitman? No matter how discrete there is only one goal of it, and that is getting a target killed.

The same goes for the racist bigots. They all want their desires fulfilled, no matter how cowardly, useless or tactically oriented themselves may me in reaching that goal. Every once in a while someone picks up the thread and delivers (it might be a new law or a murder), and this is why they do it.

What harm did Goebbels do? None?! He wasn't doing any harm?!

Get to the real issues, and stop arguing about mere talk causes nothing. We are not talking about incarceration here, but general ethics. You claim that spreading hate towards innocent people in the hope that they will suffer is not a bad thing. It is ludicrous.

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Necessitarian
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:30 am 
 

Megadeth wrote:
Veracs wrote:
yada yada yada

What else is the point of expressing racist thoughts, especially in organized forms, than to eventually cause such harm that you claim it doesn't do.

I doubt that this is the intent - i.e. to cause harm. Rather the intent is to establish some sort of a justice according to their beliefs - the white race is better than the other ones, so they deserve more. This would seem to stem from ignorance not evil. Just to play the devil's advocate once more and further muddy the waters of what we're discussing.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:44 am 
 

You are talking about evil intent. Evil intent is not a necessary condition for evil in any ethic system that wants to be taken seriously.
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:53 am 
 

Megadeth wrote:
Get to the real issues, and stop arguing about mere talk causes nothing. We are not talking about incarceration here, but general ethics. You claim that spreading hate towards innocent people in the hope that they will suffer is not a bad thing. It is ludicrous.


I'd say that you can be anti-semtic or racist without proselytising in this vein. Similarly, many racist people don't actual desire the suffering of those they dislike. I've certainly met racist people who would find the actions of hitler as being utterly cruel, malignant and despicable. Lazy racists who are simply biased without seeking to enact any cultural change against their objects of disdain. Be wary of assuming that all people who are xenophobic are homicidal megalomaniacs. Most arent't. They are still certainly pathetic and should always be challenged, but making huge generalisations and assumptions makes one no better then the bigots. Its actions that determine whether something is good or evil; merely thinking it does not.
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Necessitarian
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:55 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
You are talking about evil intent. Evil intent is not a necessary condition for evil in any ethic system that wants to be taken seriously.

I'm talking about what Megadeth was talking about - the point of expressing racist thoughts. Evil intent would definitely be a necessary condition for me to classify someone as evil. The one and only, as a matter of fact. If you're not doing evil on purpose, you're not evil.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:03 am 
 

The Nazis did evil on purpose, they just did not think it was evil. If the condition is that you must realize your deeds are evil (and that seems to be what you mean by "on purpose"), then the Nazis weren't evil. In fact, barely anyone ever was. Even the most malicious comic book villain rationalizes his deeds as just. The word becomes meaningless.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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matras
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:09 am 
 

Veracs wrote:
(...) When has the average anti-Semitic individual whose ideas exist in a political vacuum killed six million people?


There is no such thing as a "political vacuum".
You're welcome to try again.

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Necessitarian
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:15 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
The Nazis did evil on purpose, they just did not think it was evil. If the condition is that you must realize your deeds are evil (and that seems to be what you mean by "on purpose"), then the Nazis weren't evil. In fact, barely anyone ever was. Even the most malicious comic book villain rationalizes his deeds as just. The word becomes meaningless.

Do you think that's a conclusion I'm not capable of coming at myself? I agree, Nazis weren't evil. In fact, that's about as stupid as saying that the Jews are evil. I agree, once again, evil is a pretty meaningless, outdated and unneeded word in its real meaning. I guess if you go and give evil the meaning of ignorance, then you can argue something on the basis of it.

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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:18 am 
 

Evil is what ethics forbid. You can as well say ethics are outdated. But don't expect anyone to agree with you.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?


Last edited by inhumanist on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Megadeth
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:18 am 
 

Necessitarian wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
You are talking about evil intent. Evil intent is not a necessary condition for evil in any ethic system that wants to be taken seriously.

I'm talking about what Megadeth was talking about - the point of expressing racist thoughts. Evil intent would definitely be a necessary condition for me to classify someone as evil. The one and only, as a matter of fact. If you're not doing evil on purpose, you're not evil.

I haven't said it makes you evil; I have said it does harm, as opposed to Veracs who said it doesn't. I've even specified my view on the use of the word "evil" a few posts back (see next quote). I see the continue to focus solely on this word is disabling the discussion, and it seems to have more to do with trying to discredit my posts (and others') rather than convince me or others that what has been written is not true. Because that's not the core of the discussion, but simply a matter of definition.

Megadeth wrote:
What does anything have to do with being evil? To my knowledge there's not really any such thing as "true evil", but considering Acidgobblin's is imagining such a scale we can make a general conclusion that "bad actions" are signs of "evil", for the sake of this discussion.


Acidgobblin wrote:
I'd say that you can be anti-semtic or racist without proselytising in this vein. Similarly, many racist people don't actual desire the suffering of those they dislike. I've certainly met racist people who would find the actions of hitler as being utterly cruel, malignant and despicable. Lazy racists who are simply biased without seeking to enact any cultural change against their objects of disdain. Be wary of assuming that all people who are xenophobic are homicidal megalomaniacs. Most arent't. They are still certainly pathetic and should always be challenged, but making huge generalisations and assumptions makes one no better then the bigots. Its actions that determine whether something is good or evil; merely thinking it does not.

Someone keeps going back to thinking, when this is not what we're talking about. We are talking about racist bigots who does spread their hate (or act upon it).

To think Hitler was cruel, malignant and despicable doesn't make everything you do right. It's not a defense you can pull in order to prove that what you do is good. Most racists consider Hitler a monster. I haven't called most racists monsters; I have said they do harm. I also believe that they are fully aware of it, even if they might not grasp or imagine the extent of the suffering or damage that their fantasies might cause. Extremely few racists wants genocide, but they all want "their race" to gain from other people's loss. Racists know that other people will suffer; they generally just think that the goal sanctifies the means, or that the victims have somehow deserved it. They lack the empathy because they don't see all people as equals, and they generalize all people of one ethnic or national background based on their own impressions, fears and prejudices in order to justify it. People like Varg aren't so naive that they don't have any idea of what their "innocent oppinion" will do.

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Necessitarian
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:20 am
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:38 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Evil is what ethics forbid. You can as well say ethics are outdated. But don't expect anyone to agree with you.

Well, I guess that's where I've been going wrong the whole time. Semantics. If you take evil to mean what ethics forbids, then fine, have at it, everything you said is probably right. I've been taking it to mean evil, as in having an evil intent; doing harm on the purpose of doing harm. And I see this has not been what we've been arguing over.

Megadeth wrote:
I haven't said it makes you evil; I have said it does harm, as opposed to Veracs who said it doesn't. I've even specified my view on the use of the word "evil" a few posts back (see next quote). I see the continue to focus solely on this word is disabling the discussion, and it seems to have more to do with trying to discredit my posts (and others') rather than convince me or others that what has been written is not true. Because that's not the core of the discussion, but simply a matter of definition.

Mea culpa. But to get myself out of this hole a bit, or dig deeper - you did say: "What else is the point of expressing racist thoughts, especially in organized forms, than to eventually cause such harm you claim it doesn't do". Which still means that there is harm intended there. Which I don't agree with. Which, also, would make somebody evil by my definition, and by yours too, I'd guess.

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