I wanted to post this topic mainly because, in general, I find it frustrating that on one album, a band plays one form of music, but on the next, they completely change their style. So I want to see what you guys have to say, do you like seeing change or not?

(I also add this topic because Post-Rock band 'This Will Destroy You' have changed their style to, what they call, Doomgaze a portmanteau of doom metal and shoegaze. Should they be added to MA?).

If bands are able to make a genre change while still being able to produce quality music I'm totally fine with it.

It obviously depends on the change...

Bad changes: In Flames, Soilwork, Sonata Arctica, Nightwish etc
Decent changes : Darkthrone, Blind Guardian, Hypocrisy, Katatonia, Anathema, Paradise Lost etc

I personally prefer bands to stay as they are but people grow out of certain styles, can you imagine the guys in Anathema still playing death/doom?

Manes: Black Metal (early), Experimental/Electronic/Jazz (later). Sad, isn’t it? It was some pretty decent black metal too.

Underoath was a respectable blackened deathcore band before turning into mediocre post-hardcore music.

The Gathering have changed on practically every album they've done, and they haven't made a bad album since their second. Tons of bands change style well: darkthrone, porcupine tree, tiamat, the 3rd and the mortal etc

It depends on the band doing it whether it works or not. If they're good musicians and are passionate enough it will probably work. And of course you get the bands who change their style to make more money, in which case it probably won't.

obvious mention of Ulver After folk black metal, purely folk, then purely black and then electronic, avantgarde (whatever that means) etc.
can't say I'm upset with that as "Perdition City" just stands as high as "Bergtatt" in my personal Ulver ranking. However their latest few
albums just didn't do it for me (unfortunately)

I want to put out a band that had a great change:

Svartnad, on their demo, they sounded like Silencer, but now play a mixture of Shoegaze, Post-Rock and Black Metal.

From how I see it, 90% of bands that don't ever change will eventually become boring. Cannibal Corpse, Suffocation, The Black Dahlia Murder- those are just a few bands that have done the same thing over and over again, but have a style that could be summed up in just a few albums.

I never really understood why people hate when bands change their sound. It's like- cool you like the sound of X album... then fucking listen to X album and not bitch about what Y album sounds like. Most times bands change their sound because of either member changes or members evolving as musicians. In both cases, it would be really disingenuous for a band to then stick to whatever sound was being developed before the change.

Abigail Williams I enjoy quite a bit on all three albums, although I can see how the genre jumping can annoy or put off some people. On their EP, they played meloblack influence melodeath. On their first full length, they played symphonic black metal with the occasional -core touch every so often, such as the breakdown on Into the Ashes. On their second, they changed to a significantly less symphonic kind of Emperor sound. On their most recent album, they play Wolves in the Throne Room mixed with Godspeed You! Black Emperor styled post-black metal.

I prefer a band to change than stagnate. Some bands have changes that are more subtle, like Priest or Maiden. I can't think of too many bands who have stayed one course and continued to put out records I'm interested in.

Well, it's like people have said...it's not so much a change in genres that turns people off. It's a change in quality of music. Now, it follows that people aren't necessarily going to like the "new" style as much as the earlier style, but if the music is well written and they pull it off, then at least they will still have the respect of the fans, if not their ears.

But what I typically encounter is, bands turn "vanilla." That is, their style shifts from cutting edge heavy/extreme/whatever to mainstream hard rock/nu-metal/glam or whatever the musical mainstream flavor of the week is. Whether it's Metallica, Entombed and Discharge going hard rock, or In Flames and a lot of the newer bands going for the modern nu-metal sound. It's done for a cash grab, and not simply for the sake of expanding their artistic or musical horizons.

Bathory's style change really worked well. I love both the early thrashy black metal and the later epic doom sound even though both were very different. Dark Throne- I still respect the changes they made although their newer stuff doesnt appeal to me that much (and I havent heard the latest one yet.) But then you have bands like Soilwork- cash grab. I honestly didnt even realize until very recently that Soilwork used to be underground death metal; I've always thought of them as just another cookie cutter Sevendust-wannabe band (until I researched them further.) The fact that they didnt use to be like that, still doesnt make me respect the changes in style. Another band, All That Remains- another example. They are listed on this site as "melodic Death Metal" and honestly, the only stuff by them Ive ever heard sounds like a mix of Dokken, Tesla and mainstream modern hard rock like Linkin Park. So I was rather suprised to even see them listed on this site at all- they are melodic, sure, but about as "death metal" as frickin' Bruno Mars. If they ever were truly death metal (and I've never listened to the early stuff, granted) then, again- perfect example of style change done purely for a cash grab.

Haha, I knew I couldnt be the only one thinking that.

I have never heard this band and have only listened to a few MBV albums in terms of shoegaze, but this sounds like it'd be pretty awesome.

In general, I think changing styles is something that needs to be done in order to have a steady career. Of course, I think the changes work best when there are transitions and hints as to what is set to come. Hell, I think the biggest reason why Metallica gets so much crap is because there is so much time between their releases.

Most of the forerunners of power metal from the 90s eventually just realized power metal wasn't really what they wanted to be doing - Nightwish changed into an orchestral metal band, Edguy into Meat Loaf/Skid Row/Van Halen mixture, Kamelot into a gothic band and Sonata Arctica into pop rock with a bit of a harder, progressive edge here and there. It's interesting because these bands once exemplified everything the genre was about, and then it was like they just got bored of it. Like the genre was just a thin disguise to cover what they really were underneath. For the most part, I don't really like saying bands shouldn't change their style...just seems presumptuous and artistically restrictive. If it sucks, I'll say it sucks, but talking about how band x or band y should just keep doing what they did when they were in their early 20s is unnecessarily close minded.

Their more recent stuff has incorporated more extreme elements, like harsher vocals and letting Dirk Verbeuren blast his way into oblivion. They still have that more melodic radio-friendly side to them, but Soilwork five years ago would never have done a track like "Late for the Kill, Early for the Slaughter".

I tend to enjoy when bands change, though I prefer a seemingly-planned change of the sound over the course of numerous albums, rather than a total 180 like some bands do from one album to the next.

If by seemingly planned change you mean natural evolution, i completley agree. Artists that usually evolve over time often end up with a much more consistently enjoyable discography rather than those who go through an identity crisis every two years. Enslaved, Voivod, Blut Aus Nord and Samael are all bands that have kept me on board over the years because they change from album to album, yet still sound like themselves.
Having said that, Bolt Thower and Vader have kept me as a fan churning out the same style with minimal, if any change at all. Depends on the artist and the conviction I guess.

bolt thrower did undergo quite a change in the course of the first four albums

I would say first two maybe three, but yes Bolt Thower did. True. Can i change BT for Vomitory?

Of course as well there are bands like Sigh or Boris for example who seem to shift genres with every album. Sometimes the changes are subtle, sometimes they're huge.

Pyogenesis changed on every album, but it was obvious what direction they were taking gradually , so it was not a big surprise. For a long period they maintained their sense of melody and melancholy, but im my opinion it went bad on Unpop (with one or two exceptions) and further on.



Feel free to submit them to the bandqueue, and we will have a look. But bare in mind, that a previous non-metallic post rock band going in a metal direction has to be very convincing. You have there a previous non-metal band making what might be a half-metal album (based on the 'doomgaze' tag you provided).

Also, please don't use the "doomgaze" tag

'Doomgaze' is basically drone I believe. Also if the band is using this kind of self-labelling it's fucking lame.

I don't have a problem with genre shifting as long as a particular band can produce quality music as stated by henkkjelle above. But I do have a problem if a band tends to put out something like 'Illud Divinium Insanus' or 'Lulu'.

Seeing as how Carcass is apparently going to release a new album we should mention how each album they released had it's own sound.
They began with...I guess you could call it goregrind, then went with a death/grind album, full-on death metal, melodic death metal (according to a lot of reviews) and their last one was...well, a mess.

For me, it only worked for Symphonies..., Necroticism..., and Heartwork, but hey, I know people who liked every stage of the band.

Also, I can't beleive nobody has mentioned Therion yet. Yes, it's an obvious answer for a topic of this kind, but you cannot take lightly turning from a bit excentric (and really good) death metal band into an almost completely symphonic or even operatic metal band (also really good).

Like others have said, most bands that manage to stay around long enough to actually form a career in music will change genres. I'll mention a few that made some more extreme changes.
Hexx, the power metal band that made the not so subtle change from awesome power metal to average death metal.
Satan's Host went from an average trad sound to a great black metal sound.
Pantera obviously, their hilarious glam sound was a radical departure from their defining 90's groove sound, which...
... inspired just about every awesome 80s thrash band that didn't change to an alt rock sound, to a groove sound in the 90's, and just about every single one of these bands suffered as a result of this, and most haven't recovered to this day.
I think change is inevitable for the long term survival of a band, particularly as band members change. The challenge in change is writing records that are still strong. Bands such as Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and Running Wild managed to survive changes in key personnel and go on to stronger records with a different sound. It can be done, and can be done well.

And we should add that they have changed once again to an even more awesome (for me at least) sound that's somewhere between those 2 styles.

It's about as big overexaggeration of the doom influence and epic doom term as one can get. But as I mentioned somewhere on this board, as soon as you slow your music down you are borrowing from Black Sabbath, as soon as you go for more epic, majestatic sound you are paying homage to Candlemass. This type of revionism probably has a lot do with the doom metal revival trend at the moment.
I don't say Quorthon didn't listen to Candlemass (or Manowar and Manilla Road for that matter), but Hammerheart sound and atmosphere is so far moved away from the possible traditional metal influences that this albums feels pulled 'out of nowhere' no less than Black Sabbath debut. It's one of the very few albums where you can't really say (without overinterpretation) what was the (less or more) direct influence.

IMO, quality music isn't an objective thing that can be defined with specific details, unless, you are being subjected by yourself to such details while trying to listen to various styles of music. I feel it's rare finding bands that change their style only to be more mainstream, especially with the industry being less dependent on record labels. Even if the motive is to become more mainstream, that doesn't equate to a deterioration of quality of the music all the time. Yet, in the metal community, it seems like there's a large amount of people that make a claim bands have sold out that just simply had a style change. What's good is good and what's bad is bad. Look at the bands that people do claim "went a little mainstream", but in fact had major shifts in line ups. Behemoth by many seemed to me to be labeled as a band that turned "vanilla" but yet that seems to ignore the fact that Inferno's drumming plays a major role in Behemoth, and thus added a new direction to the bands genre. Dimmu Borgir is another one I find gets flack, even though I'm not the biggest fan of their modern music compared to old. Although they did play music that I enjoy more back in the day, I can appreciate their shift if their compositional motives are to write for a more symphonic based band than black metal. Yet- this shift was extremely controversial because it just left people with two black metal albums when they could've chosen to stick with that genre.

You know, it was previously mentioned that it is better that a band shifts rather than stagnates. With that in mind, I suppose I'll be the asshole here to make the attempt to defend In Flames. Honestly, it's not like I don't see where most of you are coming from: the very aptly-named Reroute to Remain is probably their weakest album in my book for seemingly being a random amalgamation of a holy fuckton of American mainstream trends of the day, most obviously, melodic metalcore and nu metal. I don't much mind the former because I don't have a problem with the hardcore punk template, and can get behind the "chugga-chugga" when I'm in the right mood and when it's not obvious scene kid pandering á la most mainstream deathcore sans All Shall Perish. Not even detractors can say that In Flames have gone full retard in that regard yet and really, it seems to be an on-and-off influence for them (Reroute to Remain had it, then it was dropped on Soundtrack to Your Escape and Come Clarity, picked back up on A Sense of Purpose, and dropped again on Sounds of a Playground Fading). The electronic nu metal stuff, though, should never have happened to them. I am thankful that Reroute was the only release that featured it prominently.

I can also see the problems people have with Fridén as a lead lately (though I'll level with the lot of you and say that he doesn't grate on my nerves at all personally, so I guess I just have a very high tolerance or something).

All around, they are, structurally, a mainstream alternative metal band at this point. I still think that anyone who claims that they no longer incorporate melodeath into even their most recent offerings was obviously stung as a child, or is in complete denial that one of the pioneers of their beloved genre could ever fuse it with anything alternative. I feel that they are the weaker of the two surviving "Kings", Dark Tranquillity having had a much, much more fascinating evolution through the late 90's and the 00's.

Despite all of that, when I think back on my experience listening to Whoracle, Colony, and Clayman, I remember thinking distinctly that all three of them were essentially the same album. Which is to say that it was good, respectable material, but it was getting repetitive. Me being younger and coming into In Flames only after they had already released Come Clarity might have influenced that opinion. Nevertheless, I feel that, one way or another, they had to change soon if they were going to avoid the aforementioned stagnation. Fatefully, unlike Dark Tranquillity, who took a more gothic and progressive approach, they chose to take the more accessible route. Cash grab? I cannot confirm or deny, not knowing their exact motivations, but I am inclined to deny simply because maintaining any kind of melodeath influence that doesn't very overtly contribute to melodic metalcore trends (I had to listen pretty hard for it even on their offending outings; keep in mind that I am in to the likes of Killswitch Engage, In This Moment, and As I Lay Dying, nostalgically or otherwise, and do often notice the difference) tends to make you less palatable to the American mainstream in general. To this day, I have yet to meet personally an In Flames fan apart from myself. All I find are those who say something to the effect of, "Oh, I listened to an album by them once." And they can't name the album.

Even if I'd have preferred a more obvious turn toward progressive territory ("The Chosen Pessimist" is probably their most interesting song to date) as the likes of Omnium Gatherum, In Mourning, and, once again, Dark Tranquillity, have done, at the very least, I have to say that In Flames amounts of one of the better alternative metal acts today (not the best; I reserve that declaration for Katatonia), especially compared to the ones who have been doing it from the start. Once again, my tolerance levels are a bit higher, so bands like Three Days Grace, Breaking Benjamin, Trapt, Red, and the hundreds more, while not being in my library (nor will they be unless they pull some kind of really well-executed Soulfly-type shit), do not earn my instant ire when someone else happens to put them on. But against In Flames, they are still nothing, probably because their continued melodeath influence sets them miles apart, because they show a drive toward evolution and pliability, never sounding exactly the same on any new album, and because they can pull off something different and daring now and then (again, "The Chosen Pessimist"...). I am not ashamed to say that they are interesting enough that I will likely be pre-ordering their next outing once it becomes available.

To address the topic put forth by the OP, if the above is any indication, no, it does not bother me often. In This Moment earned some immense scepticism from me with Blood due to its grossly overt tumble into nu metal territory (worse than anything In Flames ever put out). The whole first half of the album was extremely awkward, to put it nicely, and the latter half, while a bit less offending, wasn't quite enough to make up for it. Maria Brink's conceptual downfall into a decadent "bad girl" sort of aesthetic doesn't help things. It wouldn't bother me if it didn't affect her vocal style, but it was so pervasive that I was forced to ask myself, "Is this is the same woman who made The Dream, well... dreamy?" I am wholeheartedly hoping that this merely constitutes growing pains and that they will get back on track come a few years down the road when they release their next album.

Yeah Bathory was never truely doom which is why I thought that tag would be a little controversial. Interestingly though, the three bands that most directly copy Bathorys sound (Scald, Ereb Altor, Atlantean Kodex) are all true epic doom bands.

Scald and Atlantean Kodex copying Bathory? I'm a bit lost here .. did I miss something?

Are you saying they aren't pure Bathory worship?

I don't really think they are. The style is similar, but with a different approach.

You want Bathory worship? Listen to Morrigan and Iuvenes.

Voivod, I liked their thrash metal better than their progressive metal. but im more of a thrash guy anyway.

What the fuck?

This. Atlantean Kodex has strong epic doom and heavy influences, I never really thought of Bathory while listening to them...

For epic doom, I'd imagine there is certainly some Hammerheart influence in there somewhere. But to say bands like Scald and Atlantean Kodex are Bathory worship? I just can't see that at all. I've never seen Bathory referred to as epic doom either. Hammerheart and more noticeably, Twilight of the Gods, are a lot slower but doom? Eh, I don't see it. I suppose you could make a case for Twilight, but even that's pushing it I think.

I like the band, but no.


There it is. I like discussion on specific examples, but this sums it up.


Haha, yeah...

I've never heard of this term before nor do I want to venture into bands associated with the term. But I'm kind of guessing the sound is pretty much similar to Drone. That explains your 'WTF' right away.