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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:04 am 
 

John_Sunlight wrote:
Marx wrote about the relationship of the individual and nature.

Which of his texts should I check out then?

I remember something like this:

Nature provides the material means of production.

Individualism is something only the ruling class can afford.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?


Last edited by inhumanist on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Westvargr
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 306
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:05 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Likewise, if you make black metal about christian love you kind of missed the point and the product will not be proper black metal.

inhumanist wrote:
I guess you'd just get bad music out of the equation since there would be, according to how I see it, a discrepancy between the medium and what one tries to express, leading to inadequacy of the product. As I said: Until proven to me otherwise.


You must have never listened to Horde.

I do agree that some topics won't work with black metal, or rather: haven't worked yet. But communism and christianity as counter to satanism and nazi-attitude definitely do have their place in black metal, as much as nature-inspired black metal (which can be very much linked with leftist ideologies). Of course, it couldn't be a "everyone loves each other, every human is wonderful and should be happy blabla we're all equal", but if you think that's all communism has to offer, you should sit down and actually get some education in that area.

If we're talking about "wrong" lyrics and interpretation, we could as well mention how Nazism shouldn't work with black metal, as it's obviously against the in black metal praised individuality. I may actually approve of your idea to a certain extent by saying this though, as most plain NSBM is just plain shit. However, if it ain't plain hitler-worshipping it can work extremly well. Just as much as black metal inspired by communism and leftist ideologies can work extremly well, but probably get's shitty once it crosses the line of being way too dull and leaving certain, important aspects of black metal culture out of consideration.

Your argumentation reminds me of this btw:
Image
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 4168
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:20 am 
 

Westvargr wrote:
Of course, it couldn't be a "everyone loves each other, every human is wonderful and should be happy blabla we're all equal", but if you think that's all communism has to offer, you should sit down and actually get some education in that area.

Nice strawman!

TYI I have got some education in that area.

Westvargr wrote:
Your argumentation reminds me of this btw:
Spoiler: show
Image

inhumanist wrote:
Black metal wants to kill God but replaces him with Satan, Odin etc., not because God is oppressive but because he's perceived as pathetic compared to more ancient powers. Black metal seems really more reactionary than revolutionary to me. It stands in opposition to modernity and idealizes values of past (pre-modern). There's also an aspect of a war-like mentality which to me seems very much like the Hobbesian worldview.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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iloveblackmetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:30 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:25 pm 
 

MalignantThrone wrote:
iloveblackmetal wrote:
Can you stop arguing??

It's called "discussion" and it's going to happen with every single thread you create. Learn to deal with it.


Fair enough

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Conservationism
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:48 pm
Posts: 431
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:21 am 
 

vengefulgoat wrote:
Umm, the groups who glorify holocaust etc., focusing on antihuman aspect of Third Reich/second WW rather than securing future for white people don't label themselves national socialists. Those who do, either acknowledge its vileness, try to justify it, support revisionist theories or, most often, have a mixed opinion of those three variants.


There's lots of black metal bands that have nationalistic and post-humanist viewpoints who choose not to identify with the NS community. I can't blame them, seeing how the NS/WP/WN/WS community is generally an asylum for informants and schizoids.

The idea of left-wing black metal is laughable. It's all warmed-over grindcore made by soulless drones. It's as "legitimate" as "Christian black metal," which is to say as legitimate as KKK reggae or pro-McDonalds neofolk.
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TheUglySoldier
Metalhead

Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:44 am
Posts: 1668
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:41 am 
 

Conservationism wrote:
It's as "legitimate" as "Christian black metal," which is to say as legitimate as KKK reggae or pro-McDonalds neofolk.


I'd say NSBM is just as ridiculous a concept.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:31 pm 
 

Conservationism wrote:
vengefulgoat wrote:
Umm, the groups who glorify holocaust etc., focusing on antihuman aspect of Third Reich/second WW rather than securing future for white people don't label themselves national socialists. Those who do, either acknowledge its vileness, try to justify it, support revisionist theories or, most often, have a mixed opinion of those three variants.


There's lots of black metal bands that have nationalistic and post-humanist viewpoints who choose not to identify with the NS community. I can't blame them, seeing how the NS/WP/WN/WS community is generally an asylum for informants and schizoids.

The idea of left-wing black metal is laughable. It's all warmed-over grindcore made by soulless drones. It's as "legitimate" as "Christian black metal," which is to say as legitimate as KKK reggae or pro-McDonalds neofolk.


Interesting that you identify nationalism as compatible with BM but anything left wing as not, when nationalism is often expressed through left wing politics. For almost the entire 20th century, various permutations of Leninism were the go-to for any national liberation movement anywhere in the world.

Even today, when socialism isn't hip anymore, there are plenty of left-nationalist movements and supporters around the world. > Hello!

[edit] come to think of it, I don't know any leftists who don't support national liberation movements all around the world.
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mcmufffins
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:30 am
Posts: 217
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:50 pm 
 

Westvargr wrote:
I may actually approve of your idea to a certain extent by saying this though, as most plain NSBM is just plain shit. However, if it ain't plain hitler-worshipping it can work extremly well. Just as much as black metal inspired by communism and leftist ideologies can work extremly well, but probably get's shitty once it crosses the line of being way too dull and leaving certain, important aspects of black metal culture out of consideration.


I think it's fair to say that any political ideology can work with black metal, provided the band focuses more on making good music than the message.
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elf48687789
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:03 pm
Posts: 1617
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:43 pm 
 

It's hard for me to take Jarost Marksa and Mrakobesie seriously. For one thing, just look how silly the artwork is on the Jarost Marksa releases. And Mrakobesie has silly music and silly lyrics, I mean, "Comrade Satanalin", that just says it all.

But I think I've heard communist power/heavy metal before. I think maybe this band from Angola: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0IHNbFE2BOU and I also remember a band from Vietnam, I'm not sure if they're on the Archives, but I do remember a myspace page.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4641
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:27 pm 
 

I don't know anything about Mrakobesie lyrics, but what's silly about JM's art? The star, hammer, sickle, and wheat are all common communist symbols. I'll grant, the sketchy line art style is a bit art-studenty...
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The SHM
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 4:54 pm
Posts: 134
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:40 pm 
 

I get more out of Rage Against the Machine's "Producer" than some of these songs (probably because it's in English?) Whenever I prefer to hear "communist metal," I'm hoping for aristo-rape and ultraviolent revolution in the song. Not satisfied here, and communist punk isn't...
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Powerslave93
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:06 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:15 pm 
 

One of the aspects of communism is conformity and black metal is about the individual, so the term "communist black metal" makes about as much sense as NSBM or Christian black metal.

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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
Posts: 4168
Location: 50 Forts Along The Rhine
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:58 pm 
 

Powerslave93 wrote:
One of the aspects of communism is conformity

All the communists I know must've read Marx wrong.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes wrote:
Compared to how it is here in Sweden, fascism sounds like paradise.
Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2001
Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:24 pm 
 

edit:
Powerslave93 wrote:
One of the aspects of communism is conformity

False. This is one of the aspects of authoritarian bullshit, which is fundamentally antithetical to Marxism.

Communism is a utopic vision possible only after a long (and in the end, bloody) process of learning from and eliminating the failures of capitalism and, thence, socialism (another lengthy phase known as "the dictatorship of the proletariat"). I could see a communist putting the "radical" back in the radical left with the style if not the spirit of black metal. Also, communism isn't so much a revolt against rich people as against oppression and the use of capital to leverage power over citizens, who ultimately should be without submission to authority, but be equals in most (if not all) respects. Wealth is not the enemy except to the very foolish who lack the comprehension that a thriving economy is of value to everyone so long as the surplus is not hoarded. It isn't a revolutionary philosophy so much as an evolutionary one. The fact that communist movements and revolutions have been undertaken is no surprise, considering how appealing it would be to a ground-down factory worker perpetually under the heel of the bourgeoisie, but they were false communism. It is impossible, even according to the philosophy of the Dialectic, to skip steps. Capitalism has to first fail in order to even begin the transformation.

As far as the spirit versus the style of black metal, and though it is unrelated to communism whatsoever, I recently read this quality review by Nightgaunt.

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Lord Tempestuous
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:27 pm
Posts: 72
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:12 pm 
 

Politics is the realm of Punk music. Black Metal has never done well when the focus of the music is politics, no matter what they are. Burzum knew best in this regard, Varg being extremely political and yet never allowing it to play a major role in Burzum's music. Black Metal should represent the mythical and higher concepts; the best of the genre always did.

That said the original concepts of Black Metal seem quite incompatible with communism. Black Metal was never about individualism until the genre began to be populated with those who didn't really understand it in the mid-late 90's. Those who think its all about individualism and simple rebellion are dead wrong, Black Metal was different because it went so much deeper than that. Black Metal's concerns were power, magic, war, the ancient, nature, natural order, Gods and Anti-Gods, all of these were hailed religiously. This whole "Black Metal is about the individual nonsense" came along when the genre started stagnating, most of the progenitors left, and the imitators filled in the holes. They didn't understand Black Metal, so figured it was, like everything else, a playground to support the notion that the individual is the highest rung of existence. I believe this is why Anton Lavey's Satanism was largely rejected by the early Black Metallers. In fact, the early Black Metal scene seemed very infatuated with totalitarian ideal; Euronymous wanted to own slaves, Fenriz recounts how people or bands that weren't liked were threatened out of the scene, Varg talks of others who burned churches as peons who performed his will.
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Acidgobblin
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
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Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:19 pm 
 

^Far left politics is often as totalitarian as far right; maybe moreso, historically speaking.

Black metal has never been homogenous. Its draws from a diverse range of viewpoints, with the common ground often being a certain extreme, black and white-ness.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4641
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:21 pm 
 

C'mon guys, this is an old thread.

Lord Tempestuous is right about black metal not being based on individual egoism.
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Lord Tempestuous
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:27 pm
Posts: 72
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:49 pm 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
^Far left politics is often as totalitarian as far right; maybe moreso, historically speaking.

Black metal has never been homogenous. Its draws from a diverse range of viewpoints, with the common ground often being a certain extreme, black and white-ness.


Perhaps, but i'm critiquing how the views of communism as expressed here(especially anti totalitarian) are seemingly antithetical to the genre. Black Metal has expressed a certain diversity in regards to its viewpoints true, but in order to discover common ground in a genre, you must find the point in which it all overlaps. That most of the original Black Metal bands were obsessed with the mythical cannot really be dismissed; this precludes the importance of politics.
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Now there are no rulers, no emperors,
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When wonderful things were worked among them
And they lived in lordly magnificence.
Those powers have vanished, those pleasures, dead.
The weakest survives and the world continues, kept spinning by toil.

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Maniac Matis
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:49 am
Posts: 368
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:55 pm 
 

I have no idea what the NSBM scene is like OP. Nor do I really care, honestly. Some of my favorite black metal bands are highly racist. Like Drudkh. At least one member is a Nazi. Burzum, too. I understand why alot of metalheads wouldn't like bands like that, but personally I don't give a shit. As long as the music doesn't soley serve as a medium to promote (those) ideas, none of which Drudkh, Taake, Burzum, or WITTR do, then what does it matter? I know this isn't on topic, but I've realized many people judge those bands based on illusions. People need to listen without cognitive bias!
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Desperta_Ferro
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:45 am
Posts: 598
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:07 pm 
 

I want more black metal about black metal.

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Lord Tempestuous
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:27 pm
Posts: 72
Location: U.S.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:12 pm 
 

Desperta_Ferro wrote:
I want more black metal about black metal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsnOp2quEck

Our order mocked
And cast aside
This birthright realm,
To a son of clay
Reclamation of our
Lost prominence
Behold a vacant throne!

Wretched! Loved by our hate!
Weeping to a light finally failed
Fall upon our spears
And give praise
We reward faith with
Sanguine blessings
Consent to kneel
And find a winged king!

Bear witness to the
Triumph of the wing and blade!
A new reign of tyranny
In the absent lord's domain

Speak no more!
Of spoiled conquest
Ashen in your mouth!

Listen not!
To blind supplication's
Damnation!

To wield the faith
To conjure and kill
Mere tools with which to reign?

Insane and lost
The sovereign fell
And left us to decide

Let them drink of the cup
And taste the fire
Let them eat of the flesh
And be poisoned within

Injurious glory
Perilous acclaim
Lost prominence regained
A coronation of murdered souls
To this... are we condemned
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Now there are no rulers, no emperors,
No givers of gold, as once there were,
When wonderful things were worked among them
And they lived in lordly magnificence.
Those powers have vanished, those pleasures, dead.
The weakest survives and the world continues, kept spinning by toil.

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Acidgobblin
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 2234
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:35 pm 
 

Maniac Matis wrote:
I have no idea what the NSBM scene is like OP. Nor do I really care, honestly. Some of my favorite black metal bands are highly racist. Like Drudkh. At least one member is a Nazi. Burzum, too. I understand why alot of metalheads wouldn't like bands like that, but personally I don't give a shit. As long as the music doesn't soley serve as a medium to promote (those) ideas, none of which Drudkh, Taake, Burzum, or WITTR do, then what does it matter? I know this isn't on topic, but I've realized many people judge those bands based on illusions. People need to listen without cognitive bias!


Why would you included WITTR with those bands?
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Maniac Matis
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:49 am
Posts: 368
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:56 pm 
 

I thought there was something funky about one of the Weaver brothers' political idealology. Believe I was thinking of a totally different band, lol.
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Marag
Veteran

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 pm
Posts: 2659
Location: down there where chaos prevails
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:19 pm 
 

Desperta_Ferro wrote:
I want more black metal about black metal.

Why want more when you already have this masterpiece?

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Acidgobblin
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:56 pm
Posts: 2234
Location: Antarctica
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:55 pm 
 

Maniac Matis wrote:
I thought there was something funky about one of the Weaver brothers' political idealology. Believe I was thinking of a totally different band, lol.


I think I've heard them described as "eco-fascists" whatever the hell that is....;)
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w0Lf
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 1:04 am
Posts: 127
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:55 pm 
 

RonimuZ wrote:
I can sort of understand why you'd want to narrow a genre down to certain lyrical themes (while I don't really agree), but I can't understand why you'd want to insist that black metal is always inspired by certain themes. You simply can't know what inspired the music only by listening to it.
We can make reasonably accurate inferences, though.

Is black metal's overall sound -- lyrics notwithstanding -- more reminiscent of love or hate? Does it evoke summer or winter? Does it remind you of futuristic cityscapes or ancient forests?

Using a little bit of common sense, we can see that what something sounds like isn't completely subjective.
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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:55 pm
Posts: 2001
Location: In the Open Sea
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:08 am 
 

Desperta_Ferro wrote:
I want more black metal about black metal.

Black meta-l

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Megadeth
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 474
Location: Norway
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:53 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
RonimuZ wrote:
First you said music is intuitive, emotional and non-rational form of expression, but then you seem to imply that communistic ideas simply can't be manifested as black metal. Why is that? For example, nature has inspired a vast group of artists throughout the times, most of which haven't played black metal. Why wouldn't various arbitrary sources be able to inspire black metal?

Because genres emerge historically to satisfy specific expressive needs, and I find that in the case of black metal the essential themes can be pinpointed relatively narrowly.

You are talking about established connotations; black metal music does not denote any such themes. What you claim simply isn't an objective fact, but your personal interpretation of the music.

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matras
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:01 am
Posts: 870
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:59 am 
 

Acidgobblin wrote:
Maniac Matis wrote:
I thought there was something funky about one of the Weaver brothers' political idealology. Believe I was thinking of a totally different band, lol.


I think I've heard them described as "eco-fascists" whatever the hell that is....;)


"Eco-fascism" is a sensationalist term made up by the media (especially the right wing) to make environmentalism (radical and not so radical) seem scary as in:
Media: 'the logging operation was stopped by eco-fascists'
People: 'fascists! I'm gonna throw batteries in the recycling bin'

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ahmedssmb
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:55 am
Posts: 31
Location: Egypt
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:15 am 
 

Communism is somehow Jewish or kind of caused/prompted by those people, Nazism is obviously Christian, no matter how many "evil" stuff they did, Black Metal is anti-all of that, let all this humanistic hooliganish crap rot behind, even if some get fascinated by the "genocides" happened by those, we are worse, focused evil, a strong daily dose of diabolical obsession done and renewed by the rituals of Black Metal, separate your self now from all of this, humans are worthless, direct your hate to them just because they exist.

Desperta_Ferro wrote:
I want more black metal about black metal.


Check out the following track lyrics (Black Metal Must Be...!!!) from Lucifugums album: http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/Lu ... or33/84826 (Use the spolier)

Spoiler: show
Black Metal is not for humans
Black Metal can not be white
Black Metal is anti-future
Black Metal is anti-life
We attack by antihuman Black Metal!!!
With frenzy and pernicious knowledge
Others will not increase the evil
We breathe by chaos and devour what we create
We were born by ourselves
Darkness is devoted to us
We don't fight for territory and souls
We don't feel human wishes
Our aspirations are not clear to humans
We are the blind sharp-sighted
We destroy without selection - just die fast!
We don't need your last sight and your thickened blood
We don't dance on enemy's funerals
We already shall far from it
We lynch the all white and blacken the black
To breathe only by blackness
Hatred is just a weapon
It's not a supreme mystery
We don't live the traces
For your traces we have the nails
We shall drive them without a hammer
For your wounds we have a salt
For your eyes we have an acid
For your prays we have necrologies
Your future is not in your hands
It is under our guillotine
Kill your child now to save him
Surrounded by enemies are the most protected
Create the enemies, create the war
Kill now, kill always
Black Metal must be…!!!
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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6338
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:26 am 
 

This is probably my favourite:
Behexen - Black Metal Baptism
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Desperta_Ferro
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:45 am
Posts: 598
Location: Argentina
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:39 am 
 

Cool suggestions guys :headbang:

I derailed the thread, but the thing is, my favourite lyrical theme is metal itself. Metal about metal, that's it.

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Powerslave93
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:06 pm
Posts: 18
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:09 pm 
 

Grave_Wyrm wrote:
edit:
Powerslave93 wrote:
One of the aspects of communism is conformity

False. This is one of the aspects of authoritarian bullshit, which is fundamentally antithetical to Marxism.

Communism is a utopic vision possible only after a long (and in the end, bloody) process of learning from and eliminating the failures of capitalism and, thence, socialism (another lengthy phase known as "the dictatorship of the proletariat"). I could see a communist putting the "radical" back in the radical left with the style if not the spirit of black metal. Also, communism isn't so much a revolt against rich people as against oppression and the use of capital to leverage power over citizens, who ultimately should be without submission to authority, but be equals in most (if not all) respects. Wealth is not the enemy except to the very foolish who lack the comprehension that a thriving economy is of value to everyone so long as the surplus is not hoarded. It isn't a revolutionary philosophy so much as an evolutionary one. The fact that communist movements and revolutions have been undertaken is no surprise, considering how appealing it would be to a ground-down factory worker perpetually under the heel of the bourgeoisie, but they were false communism. It is impossible, even according to the philosophy of the Dialectic, to skip steps. Capitalism has to first fail in order to even begin the transformation.

As far as the spirit versus the style of black metal, and though it is unrelated to communism whatsoever, I recently read this quality review by Nightgaunt.


I know that communism in Marx's view is a classless, stateless society, but wasn't one of the steps an authoritarian state that re-educates people to accept that utopia?

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4641
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:15 pm 
 

No, those are anti-Marxist slanders of Marxism.
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