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iloveblackmetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:30 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:11 pm 
 

I think everybody here knows what nsbm is. But I was just wondering: Does it exist a scene like nsbm have? And do you know any bands that are like this?

PS Im not a communist.

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vengefulgoat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:15 am
Posts: 977
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:26 pm 
 

Just in advance: NKVD from France isn't communist, like I heard some uninformed people claim, not sure if on this forum though.

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MARSDUDE
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:17 pm
Posts: 1734
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:34 pm 
 

A search on this site's lyrical themes gives quite a few results.

Мракобесие call their music 'communistic raw black metal'

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MrMcThrasher II
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
Posts: 846
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:53 pm 
 

I figure someone with the name "iloveblackmetal" would be able to tell us.
Apparently, that's not the case.
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Metantoine
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:19 pm 
 

The dude is 15, give him a chance.
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qTp
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:32 pm
Posts: 323
Location: Dolomites
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:32 pm 
 

R.A.B.M. = Red and Anarchist Black Metal
http://www.facebook.com/redanarchistblackmetal
http://www.lastfm.it/group/RABM
http://r-a-b-m.blogspot.it
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693
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:55 am
Posts: 628
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:43 pm 
 

Euronymous was known to be into politics, and he was a communist. Never made any music about his views.

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Westvargr
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:51 pm
Posts: 308
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:58 pm 
 

Jarost Marksa have actual communist lyrics.
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MalignantThrone
Vanished in the Cosmic Futility

Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 1:24 am
Posts: 2785
Location: A step closer to home
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:27 pm 
 

vengefulgoat wrote:
Just in advance: NKVD from France isn't communist, like I heard some uninformed people claim, not sure if on this forum though.

Haha, I came into this thread expecting tons of people to start namedropping N.K.V.D. I'm so glad this was the first reply.
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which ones are mainstream cuz i will stop listening to them

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iAm
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Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:18 am
Posts: 5630
Location: West of the Duwamish due South of the Sound
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:12 pm 
 

qTp wrote:

That blog is a great place to start; I've been following it for a while. This stuff is essentially a political opposition to NSBM; and "Earth-friendly" bands like Wolves in the Throne Room and the like are often thrown into that mix, whether they preach Communist/ Anarchist/ radical Left themes or not.
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iamntbatman wrote:
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vengefulgoat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:15 am
Posts: 977
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:52 am 
 

693 wrote:
Euronymous was known to be into politics, and he was a communist. Never made any music about his views.

Actually, as far as I know his 'communism' was all about being fascinated by stalinist and maoist genocides and such...

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Opus
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 1831
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:12 am 
 

vengefulgoat wrote:
693 wrote:
Euronymous was known to be into politics, and he was a communist. Never made any music about his views.

Actually, as far as I know his 'communism' was all about being fascinated by stalinist and maoist genocides and such...

How is that different from people who label themselves "national socialists"?
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Marag
Veteran

Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:55 pm
Posts: 2660
Location: down there where chaos prevails
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:16 am 
 

Opus wrote:
vengefulgoat wrote:
Actually, as far as I know his 'communism' was all about being fascinated by stalinist and maoist genocides and such...

How is that different from people who label themselves "national socialists"?

Why do you think holocaust denial exists?

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iloveblackmetal
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:30 pm
Posts: 74
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:28 am 
 

Can you stop arguing??

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mcmufffins
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:30 am
Posts: 217
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:10 pm 
 

Iskra! Really raw, red/anarchist crust punk/black metal.
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vengefulgoat
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:15 am
Posts: 977
Location: Poland
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:38 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Actually, as far as I know his 'communism' was all about being fascinated by stalinist and maoist genocides and such...

How is that different from people who label themselves "national socialists"?[/quote]
Umm, the groups who glorify holocaust etc., focusing on antihuman aspect of Third Reich/second WW rather than securing future for white people don't label themselves national socialists. Those who do, either acknowledge its vileness, try to justify it, support revisionist theories or, most often, have a mixed opinion of those three variants.

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der_kaiser
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 82
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:13 pm 
 

In my opinion; Black Metal is about Elitism not about equality with everybody! Communism is nonsense!

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Ill-Starred Son
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:10 pm
Posts: 215
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:04 pm 
 

der_kaiser wrote:
In my opinion; Black Metal is about Elitism not about equality with everybody! Communism is nonsense!


I don't think black metal is about elitism, and for that matter, I don't think any style of metal I have ever heard of (other than maybe NSBM) is all about any form of politics, it's a style of music.

It's possible to have black metal without even having lyrics or vocals and there are black metal bands that are mostly without vocals like DarkSpace and most black metal bands don't discuss politics much or at all.

Black metal is about a way of playing music, it's not about any form of elitism or politics.

Also, one thing black metal usually IS about thematically is evil, and as Stalin showed, Communism at it's worst can be just as bad as National Socialism, so I could certainly imagine a very "evil" oriented Stalinist Black Metal band.

I'd be interested in hearing one.

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MalignantThrone
Vanished in the Cosmic Futility

Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 1:24 am
Posts: 2785
Location: A step closer to home
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:49 pm 
 

iloveblackmetal wrote:
Can you stop arguing??

It's called "discussion" and it's going to happen with every single thread you create. Learn to deal with it.
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BasqueStorm
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 2038
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:56 pm 
 

iAm wrote:
qTp wrote:

That blog is a great place to start; I've been following it for a while. This stuff is essentially a political opposition to NSBM; and "Earth-friendly" bands like Wolves in the Throne Room and the like are often thrown into that mix, whether they preach Communist/ Anarchist/ radical Left themes or not.

Yeah, I know it too (I think I downloaded some Panopticon from there) BUT it does NOT make those bands Communist Black Metal.

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the_raytownian
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 1:09 am
Posts: 2318
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:08 pm 
 

der_kaiser wrote:
In my opinion; Black Metal is about Elitism not about equality with everybody! Communism is nonsense!


God forbid people grow up and move beyond such incredibly dated 2nd wave BM aesthetics. It's not like BM was ever originally about "being elitist" anyway... and I don't understand why the "rules" of a bunch of johnny-come-lately 2nd wavers means means much to anyone with a brain past the age of 18, especially when a lot of that "elitism" is entirely manufactured crap cooked up by people like Euronymous, a man who would exploit another probably very dysfunctional and depressed man's suicide for the benefit of his own retarded image.

Ew.
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TheMizwaOfMuzzyTah
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 1259
Location: Abyss of Hallucinations
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:26 pm 
 

The lack of John_Sunlight's presence here leads me to somewhat shamefully suspect he is behind all of this! Why, if there were ever to be a Weishaupt amongst us it'd certainly be he says I!

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4748
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:13 pm 
 

Hey! I can't hang out on the forum all the time.

Anyway, I've looked into this. There are a handful of interesting things on that RABM blog, but most are not strictly black metal or strictly communist.

As mentioned, Mrakobesie and Jarost Marksa are the only ones with real releases and are listend on MA. There is also a band called Katyusha which isn't on the archives with a black metal demo available on that blog. From what I've found, these are the only bands around there with any internet presense or available music that are definitely black metal and definitely communist. Jarost Marksa is excellent black metal, a "The cold earth slept below" meets "Pure black energy" (I think so, anyway). The others are ok, but not my cup-o-tea. That said, I've read Jarost Marksa's lyrics and they sound like they have an anarchist vibe to me, and the band has member connections in the anarchist scene, so even they could probably stand to be a bit more communist.

Bonus repost of a classic (not entirely serious) post:

John_Sunlight wrote:
It's safe to say that of all possible traditional philosophical and political traditions, the one to which black metal most naturally can be joined is communism. Communism is the liberation of the individual from all forms of self-estrangement and estrangement from his own labors, black metal stands for freedom of the self and the full expression of ones' inherent creative powers; communism smashes superstition and allows the individual to express their full humanity, black metal advocates the destruction of Christianity and exploration of the sides of human nature which are shunned in cutesy society; communism stands for the revolutionary overthrow of the historical economic orders mistakenly considered the natural state by those most benefiting from the involved exploitation, black metal wants to kill god, etc.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along the Rhine
PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:29 pm 
 

It's a bit superficial to say that communism harmonizes with black metal because it wants to overthrow established structures. Black metal wants to kill God but replaces him with Satan, Odin etc., not because God is oppressive but because he's perceived as pathetic compared to more ancient powers. Black metal seems really more reactionary than revolutionary to me. It stands in opposition to modernity and idealizes values of past (pre-modern). There's also an aspect of a war-like mentality which to me seems very much like the Hobbesian worldview. I do not think black metal stands in contradiction with communism (it's not like black metal needs the division of labor or something) but I hardly find it to resonate with each other. Countless nationalist black metal enthusiasts might be an indication.

Oh and until proven otherwise to me I stand by my assessment that politically influenced black metal is shit.
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jute
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:30 am
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:51 am 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Black metal wants to kill God but replaces him with Satan, Odin etc., not because God is oppressive but because he's perceived as pathetic compared to more ancient powers. Black metal seems really more reactionary than revolutionary to me. It stands in opposition to modernity and idealizes values of past (pre-modern).


Statements like this baffle me. Black metal is not "about" any one thing, not least of all because the term black metal describes musical and not lyrical attributes. Even if we're just describing lyrics, black metal lyrics have covered any conceivable subject. When there are lyrics from satanist, pagan, Christian, atheist, communist, NS, anarchist, etc. perspectives (not to mention lyrics about elves or vampires or UFOs, or ancient history, or depression, or relationships, or...) how can anyone make such blanket statements as to what the music is "about"? This site lists 22,593 black metal bands - a plurality of aesthetic stances is a given.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2451
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:16 pm 
 

Just saying, a good share of black metal is related to satanism, paganism or other subjects which are about individualism, the 'Faustian' Spirit, the own will, etc. Communism is the complete opposite to that: since everyone gets the very same from the mother State (cause Communism never get pass over the revolution- de facto government phase where every aspect of your life is controlled), you're reduced to a plain number. I guess that's why there are almost 0 black metal bands covering such themes.
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Cursarion
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:56 am
Posts: 683
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:47 pm 
 

^ Well... Lyrical themes don't define a musical style. All black metal bands aren't satanistic. Obviously the ones which are satanistic aren't likely to be communists, but nothing in the world prevents communists from playing black metal (and showing it in their lyrics)...
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:42 pm 
 

I think it's more about what kind of mindset allows one to create meaningful art of a certain style. Like if you find splatter movies disgusting you aren't really qualified to make gore metal and such. Likewise, if you make black metal about christian love you kind of missed the point and the product will not be proper black metal.

Manheim wrote:
And on top of this the genre rests on a mountain of anti religion. It has a kind of misfit to it, when all that is being brought out with a Christian message. I'm not saying that Christians should only write and sing psalms, but why choose black metal? It certainly isn't black metal if they do - it is something else, which sounds like black metal.


Same goes for black metal that wants to be about proletarian revolution IMO. You can make grindcore about lynching factory owners but not black metal.
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CorpseFister wrote:
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Last edited by inhumanist on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MalignantThrone
Vanished in the Cosmic Futility

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:56 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Likewise, if you make black metal about christian love you kind of missed the point and the product will not be proper black metal.
Manheim wrote:
And on top of this the genre rests on a mountain of anti religion. It has a kind of misfit to it, when all that is being brought out with a Christian message. I'm not saying that Christians should only write and sing psalms, but why choose black metal? It certainly isn't black metal if they do - it is something else, which sounds like black metal.

This is honestly one of the most absurd things I've ever read on this forum. Musical classification, in the most objective sense, deals with elements of composition and only that. Lyrics only pertain to it by association, with most of the common, archetypical lyrical themes in a genre being arbitrarily decided by the genre's primogenitors (and then passed down to whomever picks up the torch after them), and it's downright stupid to try to claim that the overall meaning of whatever words are in the lyrics have a tangible effect on the music. Using this logic, I could switch around a few words in a song like "Incipit Satan" and make it a totally different genre.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 5:09 pm
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Location: 50 Forts Along the Rhine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:05 pm 
 

I wasn't even talking about lyrics, dude. Music is an intuitive, emotional, non-rational form of expression, but it is always an expression of the mind of the artist. You can't draw a strict line between the part of the mind that creates musical forms and the part that creates lyrics, and you can expect of good music that the ideas expressed in the lyrics (if present) in some way harmonize with the songwriting, even if only as a side-effect of the creative process.

I can't believe this even has to be said.

Sure you can make quality black metal being inspired by the relationship of the individual and nature and then slap completely unrelated communist lyrics on it, but why the hell should someone do that?
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
Personally, I prefer to know nothing of the esoteric hierarchy of MA and the profane rituals required to attain rank.

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Corpus_Chain
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:34 pm
Posts: 120
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:27 pm 
 

iloveblackmetal wrote:
I think everybody here knows what nsbm is. But I was just wondering: Does it exist a scene like nsbm have? And do you know any bands that are like this?

PS Im not a communist.



Why are you conflating communism with nazism? They're not the same thing.

MalignantThrone wrote:
Manheim wrote:
And on top of this the genre rests on a mountain of anti religion. It has a kind of misfit to it, when all that is being brought out with a Christian message. I'm not saying that Christians should only write and sing psalms, but why choose black metal? It certainly isn't black metal if they do - it is something else, which sounds like black metal.

This is honestly one of the most absurd things I've ever read on this forum. Musical classification, in the most objective sense, deals with elements of composition and only that. Lyrics only pertain to it by association, with most of the common, archetypical lyrical themes in a genre being arbitrarily decided by the genre's primogenitors (and then passed down to whomever picks up the torch after them), and it's downright stupid to try to claim that the overall meaning of whatever words are in the lyrics have a tangible effect on the music. Using this logic, I could switch around a few words in a song like "Incipit Satan" and make it a totally different genre.


I disagree. Black Metal, whilst technically defined as a musical style without reference to content, has been built on anti-religious foundations, and so the point that the poster was trying to make, that christian BM is bizarre, is correct. Christian black metal is an oxymoron.

However, I don't think it follows that communist BM is an oxymoron. It's a bit odd, when you consider the misanthropy that is intrinsic to a lot of black metal and that communism is a community-centric (and therefore social rather than anti-social) idea.

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jute
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:30 am
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:52 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
you can expect of good music that the ideas expressed in the lyrics (if present) in some way harmonize with the songwriting, even if only as a side-effect of the creative process.


And how would one verify that a piece of music (meaning an arrangement of sounds in time) "harmonizes" with lyrics about, say, communism, or Satan, or orcs? For instance, do you believe you can verify that the riffs in Burzum's "War" are Varg's attempt to translate into music the image of "crying moms"? And could you verify that a piece of "communist black metal" was in fact inspired by nature and not communism? Or could it be that music and poetry are separate domains, the former deeply abstract and rooted in pitch and time interval relations, unable to translate someone's opinions about deciduous trees or Nietzche?


Corpus_Chain wrote:
I disagree. Black Metal, whilst technically defined as a musical style without reference to content, has been built on anti-religious foundations


If it is defined as a musical style, without reference to non-musical content, then of course there is no way that it has been built on inherently non-musical opinions regarding religion or anything else. Music has an independent existence - it is not a vehicle for lyrics.
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Cursarion
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:56 am
Posts: 683
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:42 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
I wasn't even talking about lyrics, dude. Music is an intuitive, emotional, non-rational form of expression, but it is always an expression of the mind of the artist. You can't draw a strict line between the part of the mind that creates musical forms and the part that creates lyrics, and you can expect of good music that the ideas expressed in the lyrics (if present) in some way harmonize with the songwriting, even if only as a side-effect of the creative process.

I can't believe this even has to be said.

Sure you can make quality black metal being inspired by the relationship of the individual and nature and then slap completely unrelated communist lyrics on it, but why the hell should someone do that?

First you said music is intuitive, emotional and non-rational form of expression, but then you seem to imply that communistic ideas simply can't be manifested as black metal. Why is that? For example, nature has inspired a vast group of artists throughout the times, most of which haven't played black metal. Why wouldn't various arbitrary sources be able to inspire black metal?

Corpus_Chain wrote:
iloveblackmetal wrote:
I think everybody here knows what nsbm is. But I was just wondering: Does it exist a scene like nsbm have? And do you know any bands that are like this?

PS Im not a communist.



Why are you conflating communism with nazism? They're not the same thing.

He isn't, he just asked if there's a similar scene related to communism as there is to ns.
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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4748
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:50 pm 
 

To answer that question, no, there is not a comparable scene on any meaningful scale.
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inhumanist
Metal freak

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Location: 50 Forts Along the Rhine
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:45 pm 
 

jute wrote:
And how would one verify [stuff]

What? How is that relevant?
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
Personally, I prefer to know nothing of the esoteric hierarchy of MA and the profane rituals required to attain rank.

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jute
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:30 am
Posts: 148
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:49 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Sure you can make quality black metal being inspired by the relationship of the individual and nature and then slap completely unrelated communist lyrics on it, but why the hell should someone do that?


How can a listener determine that the music (not the lyric) was inspired by "the relationship of the individual and nature" and not by Marx? What does the difference sound like?

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inhumanist
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:56 pm 
 

RonimuZ wrote:
First you said music is intuitive, emotional and non-rational form of expression, but then you seem to imply that communistic ideas simply can't be manifested as black metal. Why is that? For example, nature has inspired a vast group of artists throughout the times, most of which haven't played black metal. Why wouldn't various arbitrary sources be able to inspire black metal?

Because genres emerge historically to satisfy specific expressive needs, and I find that in the case of black metal the essential themes can be pinpointed relatively narrowly.

jute wrote:
How can a listener determine that the music (not the lyric) was inspired by "the relationship of the individual and nature" and not by Marx? What does the difference sound like?

I guess you'd just get bad music out of the equation since there would be, according to how I see it, a discrepancy between the medium and what one tries to express, leading to inadequacy of the product. As I said: Until proven to me otherwise.
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Metantoine wrote:
If Summoning is the sugar of fantasy metal, is Manowar the bacon?
CorpseFister wrote:
Personally, I prefer to know nothing of the esoteric hierarchy of MA and the profane rituals required to attain rank.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 4748
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:47 pm 
 

Marx wrote about the relationship of the individual and nature.
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Cursarion
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 6:56 am
Posts: 683
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:53 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
RonimuZ wrote:
First you said music is intuitive, emotional and non-rational form of expression, but then you seem to imply that communistic ideas simply can't be manifested as black metal. Why is that? For example, nature has inspired a vast group of artists throughout the times, most of which haven't played black metal. Why wouldn't various arbitrary sources be able to inspire black metal?

Because genres emerge historically to satisfy specific expressive needs, and I find that in the case of black metal the essential themes can be pinpointed relatively narrowly.

I can sort of understand why you'd want to narrow a genre down to certain lyrical themes (while I don't really agree), but I can't understand why you'd want to insist that black metal is always inspired by certain themes. You simply can't know what inspired the music only by listening to it.
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Rild
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Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:38 pm
Posts: 623
Location: Vancouver
PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:17 am 
 

Black metal wants a revolt against the modern world, communism wants a revolt against rich people.
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What! Dost thou stand there to fuck Time?

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