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Gutterscream
The Last Old Schooler in Town

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:59 pm
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:26 pm 
 

So I guess about a week ago I was asked by someone what I thought was the weakest part(s) of this site. While I wanted to say that there aren't any, the one thing that has always bothered me is that compilation albums fail to get any official acknowledgment. While a few samplers have been dubbed acceptable (Roksnax, One Take No Dubs, Warfare Noise, Death Metal) because of their format, compilations are generally ignored not only as simple releases, but as well-regarded history within the overall metal genre.

Now, doing any semi-extensive research on the early days of metal should reveal that many bands had their first day floundering out of the crib on compilations - the obvious are Metallica, Slayer, and Iron Maiden (not counting the Soundhouse Tapes) with Running Wild, Helloween, Hellhammer, Mercyful Fate, and Trouble jogging up the rear, just to throw a few names at ya...and hell, even AC/DC can claim this lovely fact. Many of these compilations are widely considered important, if not holy grails of sorts, within the style. Metal For Muthas, Brute Force, New Electric Warriors, some of the Metal Massacres, and Roksnax are some of them throwing punches at the front of the bus, but are destined to never get off to stretch their legs, let alone strut their stuff. It just seems like we're leaving out a specialization that has not only been holding our hands since the beginning, but is both pertinent and valuable, and for me is especially glaring when scouring a completist site that is as dedicated to the flag of all things metal as the Metal Archives (the word I'm nudging here is 'archives').

Anyone else feel kinda like this or am I the only one?
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Thiestru
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:31 pm 
 

You're absolutely right, and you said it far better than I would have. The absence of great compilations like 'Fenriz Presents... The Best of Old-School Black Metal' has always bugged me, and hell, that's a modern one. Something should certainly be done to accommodate compilations on this site.

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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:46 pm 
 

I'm not a fan of compilations, in general, but still they don't do anything for me. I think in the pre internet days they would have been far more important and would have been more worthwhile as a resource, and a segment of metal history, these days random band sampling is so much easier. I wouldn't have anything against them having a place on the site though, but I think implementation would be rather difficult.
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TheUglySoldier
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:34 pm 
 

I agree. Compilations are very important - some more so than others. Take Psychedelia, for example - Nuggets is something most Psychedelic fans I know talk about regularly, in the same breath as other releases. Metal For Muthas is one that I hear over all a lot of praise for, but overall doesn't get a lot of love here.
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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:44 pm 
 

The only one I got that that was of any merit was Death is Just the Begining Vol. 2 I think?
But i really don't care about having them all listed here cause esp now with digital releases being accepted it'll be overload.

hell my grind band has only truely started releasing things regularly since 2010 and since then we have already been featured on over 10 comps that I can remember and just about everyone of them are featuring unreleased songs that were written directly for the comp.
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:01 pm 
 

Speaking of compilations, I still don't understand why double releases like Roadrunner's "Two From the Vault" aren't on the archives.
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androdion
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:37 pm 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
Speaking of compilations, I still don't understand why double releases like Roadrunner's "Two From the Vault" aren't on the archives.

Because they're reissues named after the present albums?! If they were like the CM "dual-album" reissues (Asphyx, Sacramentum) which have a name (Depths of Eternity, Abyss of Time) then they'd be featured, which they are. Two from the Vault is like the Reloaded from NB, a series of reissues and not compilations. At least that's my view of it.

Compilations were important back in a time where they allowed you to discover 15-20 new bands that you wouldn't have much way of finding about otherwise. "Death is just the Beginning" is actually one which I think is pretty cool, I have a friend who bought one (Vol.2 I believe) a long time ago when he was in his teens and it shaped a lot of his taste in death metal. To this day he cherishes it like a long lost treasure, even though he doesn't really listen to it. But it does have sentimental value. And I suppose that's how compilations are now, and actually have been for some years now, a sentimental piece of history.
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elf48687789
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:12 am 
 

The Metal Massacre compilations are certainly classics, maybe not all of them but still.

You have to look at them in perspective. No one argues of the importance of punk compilations, yet they served the same role in an era with no radio or tv airplay and no internet.

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Lord_Brendan
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:24 am 
 

My first compilation was Speed Kills - Volume 6. Damn that has some awesome stuff ranging from Sarcofago, Mortal Sin, Rotting Corpse, Nuclear Assault, Acid Reign etc

As for adding to the site, how would it be implemented and what are some possible rules?
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693
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:37 am 
 

It is not about how important some compilations are, but that there are thousands of them. Just think about the big bands, and how many compilations they have appeared on. It will make the whole archives a mess.

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Xpert74
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:09 am 
 

Yeah, there are way too many compilations to keep track of. That would be like asking us to keep track of full length albums. Who has the time for that?!
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Poisonfume
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:19 am 
 

androdion wrote:
Poisonfume wrote:
Speaking of compilations, I still don't understand why double releases like Roadrunner's "Two From the Vault" aren't on the archives.

Because they're reissues named after the present albums?! If they were like the CM "dual-album" reissues (Asphyx, Sacramentum) which have a name (Depths of Eternity, Abyss of Time) then they'd be featured, which they are. Two from the Vault is like the Reloaded from NB, a series of reissues and not compilations. At least that's my view of it.


Then what about this?
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/At ... ath/267012

We have more than a couple of contradictions on MA.
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FasterDisaster
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:44 am 
 

I feel like songs are taken out of context when they get put on compilation albums. And it feels more like a sampler than an actual album meant for repeated listenings.
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Cruciphage
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:20 pm 
 

FasterDisaster wrote:
I feel like songs are taken out of context when they get put on compilation albums. And it feels more like a sampler than an actual album meant for repeated listenings.

This is exactly why I've avoided them for the most part. I think the only ones in my collection are True Kings of Norway and that Tribute to Euronymous compilation that Necropolis put out. Like others have said, they're kind of obsolete nowadays thanks to the Internet.

Still, they do deserve mention on this site beyond the "Additional Notes" section of certain releases.
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androdion
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:52 pm 
 

Poisonfume wrote:
Then what about this?
http://www.metal-archives.com/albums/At ... ath/267012

We have more than a couple of contradictions on MA.

That's actually two albums on a single CD instead of a two disc reissue with each disc being a different album. Pretty much like this.
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Wyrmbane
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:36 pm 
 

Quote:
Anyone else feel kinda like this or am I the only one?


Not at all! I have to say that it is frustrating to see some famous samplers be allowed, because they meet the requirements of a split:
1984 - Scandinavian Metal Attack (Oz, Bathory, etc.)
1987 - Raging Death (Sadus, Obituary, Atheist, etc.)
1991 - In the Eyes of Death (Unleashed, Asphyx, Grave, etc.)

whereas some deserving ones aren't:
1991 - Projections Of A Stained Mind (Swedish Death Metal)
1992 - The Birth Of A Tragedy (Decayed, Moonspell, etc.)
1993 - The Wine Of Satan (Black Metal)

Perhaps these compilation releases could be allowed as albums of the label instead of split albums of the artists.

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Opus
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:26 pm 
 

I too think compilations should/could be included due to their historical importance. A lot of them sure did a lot for both the artists, and for metal itself.
An example would be Mike Varney's US Metal series.
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grauer_mausling
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:01 pm 
 

while I see that compilations nowadays play no real role, in my early metal days these two here were
essential for me to get to know more bands besides the then-to-me-known-ones (which were
mainly the classic like Maiden, Manowar, Metallica, Pries). Back in the very early 90s compilations
really did help smaller bands to reach a wider audience and maybe even pushing complete genres.

Those are the two I'm speaking of:
http://www.discogs.com/Various-Thrash-T ... ter/342373

Image

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Rock-Har ... ster/15138

Image

However I have no idea how one could incorporate the really absurd amount in a fitting manner to the archives...
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Gutterscream
The Last Old Schooler in Town

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:11 pm 
 

TheUglySoldier wrote:
I agree. Compilations are very important - some more so than others. Take Psychedelia, for example - Nuggets is something most Psychedelic fans I know talk about regularly, in the same breath as other releases. Metal For Muthas is one that I hear over all a lot of praise for, but overall doesn't get a lot of love here.


Ah, Nuggets. These along with the Rubble comps/box sets have spent zillions of minutes bouncing '60s sounds off my walls.

As for 1980's Metal for Muthas, a good portion of the content is, well, shaky. The soft-serve leftover '70s stuff like Praying Mantis, Nutz, and E.F. Band basically outnumbers legits Maiden, Angel Witch, and Samson, but for an ultra-early compilation this should be totally unsurprising. Needless to say, some fans have a hard time navigating these types of cusp year releases.
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Gutterscream
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:25 pm 
 

elf48687789 wrote:
The Metal Massacre compilations are certainly classics, maybe not all of them but still.

You have to look at them in perspective. No one argues of the importance of punk compilations, yet they served the same role in an era with no radio or tv airplay and no internet.


True on both counts. Sure, nowadays any band is a click or two from a website with their stuff on it, sometimes for free. Back in metal's quest-for-fire period...good luck. My favorite pain in the ass was staying up all hours of the night to catch an aural glimpse of some fly-by-nite, hour long radio show that just may play something decent, something metal, AND actually tell you who the hell the bands are (this always frosted my shorts, 'cause y'know, it's so easy to remember the anonymous order of an eight-song block with adverts for Ted's Dry Cleaners thrown in the middle).
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failsafeman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:31 pm 
 

Not to mention some of the compilations featured different recordings of the songs than ended up on the albums, or songs that never wound up on an album except maybe as a bonus track, so there's extra value there. I don't know how feasible it would be but I would definitely love to see at least the most historically important comps on the site. I own a number of Metal Massacres myself and even in the internet age I enjoy them.
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HamburgerBoy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:28 pm 
 

I don't listen to compilations very often (more frequently I'll only seek them out for a rare track or two of bands of interest) but there is definitely a lot of historical value to be gained. Metal Mercenaries is another great one, with novelties like a rare Siren track, the earliest extant (AFAIK) Kamelot song from 1987, and a number of songs from bands that never saw demo releases (or ones which remain buried).

EDIT: And one that is thoroughly listenable from start to finish (probably because it contains only four artists) is Born to Metalize. Pure swagger whether the punky metal of The Beast or the Manowar-influenced Sneak Attack or anyone else. The bands are certainly discernible from one another, but the spirit is whole and is just as listenable as a full-length.

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MalariaMosquito
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:06 pm 
 

I think exception should be given to compilations which have tracks that don't appear on any of the band's other material. Otherwise it's essentially ignoring a piece of work that the band has produced simply because it's on a less respectable or legitimate medium. For an encyclopedia, I don't think that's appropriate.

Similarly, I always felt that tribute albums deserved a place on the archives. Granted, many are simply used as a platform for unknown bands to get noticed by doing covers, but some include good versions in their own right. Nor do I think a cover song should be excluded from a band's discography just because they didn't write it (although debating the worth of covers is an entirely different argument).

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Gutterscream
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:24 pm 
 

failsafeman wrote:
Not to mention some of the compilations featured different recordings of the songs than ended up on the albums, or songs that never wound up on an album except maybe as a bonus track, so there's extra value there. I don't know how feasible it would be but I would definitely love to see at least the most historically important comps on the site. I own a number of Metal Massacres myself and even in the internet age I enjoy them.


Agree, and a case in point would be the two Maiden tracks on Metal for Muthas. Also, how about that obscure metal band that somehow has only one song to their name and it was only featured on some v/a release? For example, Metal For Muthas II: Cut Loud, also 1980, features tracks by three bands that aren't on the Archives - Eazy Money, Horsepower, and Red Alert ---- admittedly the line between hard rock and heavy metal was no more than an emaciated one back then, so it's totally subjective as to which style these songs fall into ----- but let's just say one of 'em gets the metal majority vote. Okay, so they're metal, but do they have a physical release? Well, technically this would be it. But do we really give a crap about some one-song metal band way back in '80? Most people wouldn't, but I still can't help feeling we're leaving them behind. Maybe I'm just being a total pain in the ass about this.
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Opus
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:34 pm 
 

Gutterscream wrote:
But do we really give a crap about some one-song metal band way back in '80?

We give craps about one-demo bands from way back in '80, don't we?
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adrenalin
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:46 pm 
 

Comps were a HUGE part of my metal life back in the 80's. It was the only way for someone like me that was secluded in the very un-metal place of Gardiner, Maine to hear new bands. The one that stands out the most for me is "Speed Kills Vol. I" on Music For Nations, which introduced me to Slayer, Celtic Frost, Venom, Destruction, Exodus, Possessed and Voivod. Another one that really had an impact on me was "Annihilation Of The Antichrist" on the tiny Witchhunt Records out of Switzerland, which exposed me to the best Rotting Christ tracks, Master's Hammer, Sentenced and Agathocles. With that said, the idea of a compilation is sadly a bit out dated in this day of internet access. You can hear any band you want with a few clicks of a mouse. These days, if I want to hear a compilation, I'll compile the tracks I'm into at the moment and burn my own CD or just put my iPhone on Shuffle! lol Though, there are a few that come out occasionally that have exclusive tracks, remixes, etc. that are worthy of your hard earned dollars, but it's rare.
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ACM
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:59 am 
 

Compilations played a bigger part in music than they do now. There was no Youtube, or Internet Searches. Just from my personal experience being on the East Coast, when I got the first Metal Massacre is how I discovered the bands Ratt, Bitch, and Metallica. If I wanted to discover new music I would go to the record store, and check any new metal compilation LP's. I discovered a lot of bad music, and some really good music.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:53 am 
 

Personally what i think is that what would be a good solution is to include just compilations that are deemed historically significant. The historical significance would have to be judged by the moderators. It should more and less i guess be treated like the side project rule.
Personally i think they should have a couple of terms on this site. Like maybe: label compilation, magazine compilation and what not else possible to make the difference obvious.

Also one should not forget that there are splits with non metal bands on this site aswell.

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Gutterscream
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:56 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Gutterscream wrote:
But do we really give a crap about some one-song metal band way back in '80?

We give craps about one-demo bands from way back in '80, don't we?


Yeah (sighs), we do. Those are the ones that probably make us a true archives site.
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LegendMaker
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:57 pm 
 

I'd like a place on the bandwagon, please. :D

Same story, more or less. Compilations(*) played a big part in my years of metal exploration, and the sentimental value is just as huge as the historical one in my eyes. To this day, I occasionally buy, say, a Metallian magazine just for the attached CD sampler, even if it's far less useful nowadays. Back in the mid or late 90s, the CD sampler of any Metallian mag I acquired typically included 0/15 bands I already knew, and I was first exposed to many bands that way (most of them extreme metal or PM). That's just for samplers from mags I actually bought at the newsstand, with then-recent stuff on it, but the real hunt was for obscure, strictly unexpected gems off of the bargain bins of various second-hand shops I used to call my "sources". Those were often my most exciting finds. Oh, look at this funny-looking 80s German compilation with a cheesy bad drawing for cover... What's that? Stormwitch? Veto? Gravestone? Never heard of them. Hey, COOL! :metal: :nods: Thank you so much, funny-looking compilation! And so on. One shop I used to go to had (probably still has) a shelf just for metal compilations, many of them as low as €1; it was such a glorious feeling browsing through that. I have fond memories of those days, when treasure-hunting actually required exploration out in the real world. It gave my quest for metal a sense of adventure that can't really be matched by online hunting.

(*) I'm not 100% sure of the proper terminology, but there are a few different things under the term "compilation", some of which overlap. Best of/greatest hits compilations, anthologies, samplers... The one type I think should generally be ignored is compilations only including partial re-issues of already released material, although even those often include some previously unreleased or long-out-of-print track that makes them magically valuable again (just like those fucking Japanese imports!). It's the whole point of including them, after all: already have all the albums? Buy it for the exclusive bonus tracks! Even knowing it's a marketing ploy, there are cases where it's the only (or only realistic) way to get a certain rare track. Scorpions' 'Best of Rockers 'n' Ballads' comes to mind: without it, the Lovedrive-sessions leftover track "Hey You" wouldn't be in my (physical) collection, and I love that track. So the compilation stays, even though I long since acquired all of the original albums it stole the bulk of its tracks from, for that one track; and to be fair, due to nostalgia, because that best of shaped my whole approach to and exploration of Scorpions' music.

Anyways, what I wanted to say is that compilations with otherwise unreleased material, even more so if that's the majority or entirety of their contents, are indeed historically relevant and keeping track of them would be great.

+1 for the suggestion of listing the label as "Artist" if some are to be included in the Archives. It seems to make more sense and would be easier to follow than the "Split" system.
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SoundsofDecay
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:58 pm 
 

this comp rules http://www.discogs.com/Various-At-Death ... se/1371343

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suleiman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:27 am 
 

Compilations were great and have a defintie place in metal history since the early 80's, but can only be judged on a personal level. Everybody has favourite comp. that introduced him/her to some killer new bands and changed lives forveer.

on a slightly personal note, my fave is lesser known comp. called noize pollution 3 that i got from some one on a pirated tape back in 96/97. its like the best of the best of that time. anybody know of this comp. or can direct me to a link ?

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Gutterscream
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:56 pm 
 

SoundsofDecay wrote:


That's a nifty little set up they have there, right down the cover artist.
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TrooperEd
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:18 pm 
 

Gutterscream wrote:
...and hell, even AC/DC can claim this lovely fact.



Are you claiming that AC/DC is metal?
Spoiler: show
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Zodijackyl
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:05 pm 
 

I'm younger than most of the folks fondly remembering the utility of compilations, but they were important to a lot of the music I discovered in the days of Napster. While I was able to find some of the Death is Just the Beginning series in stores locally, being able to download compilations was a great way to explore music. I couldn't differentiate between bands that were in the sea of music that was available, and there was a lot of undesirable stuff mixed in - most "metal" folders that I could find to download had more hard rock, pop-punk, and crappy alternative rock than metal. Good compilations were put together by people who knew a lot of metal, had the resources and logistics to acquire a lot of stuff that I couldn't as a younger teenager, and those who released legitimate metal compilations were just about the most reliable place for me to find new music. Up through 2005 or 2006, compilations were still a really useful way to find stuff, better than forums where recommendations were often very limited or misguided, and while there were a few tracks to listen to on MySpace, there was so much music that it was hard to find it without direction. I still had a lot of catching up to do on older stuff - it wasn't hard to keep up with the newer stuff, but you know how older metalheads always lament that younger ones missed a lot of history? Catching up used to be a lot harder than it is now!

Just finding one in a series of compilations led to more bands than I could keep track of - Death is Just the Beginning, Metal Massacre, and a few of the European festival compilations went from checking out something because I knew a few bands on it, to finding a whole series of them with a lot of good stuff. Some tributes like the Iron Maiden and Metallica v/a comps featuring In Flames + Dark Tranquillity were big for discovering a certain type of bands too. I wish I had explored the albums and discographies of a lot of those bands earlier, but that was a lot of stuff, at times tough to find even digitally with what I had. Exploring metal was quite a few years of covering ground more than immersion though, I knew a few songs by a lot of bands, which was great back then.

It's really funny to find a CD-r from back then with mp3s on it that I exchanged with friends and brought to school to listen. There's some stuff that I don't like anymore, some stuff that I didn't like when I heard it back then (like a Morbid Tunes comp), and random bands that people on forums posted, including their own, that I couldn't find again for years, like this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGRMxG-tk0c

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dreadmeat
Metal freak

Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 4:50 am
Posts: 5064
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:14 pm 
 

Without compilations I wouldn't have discovered a lot of music I consider essential now, so to me they are a huge part of metal history.
Remember also too I live in New Zealand so things were likely more limited here than in other countries, there were no "metal radio shows" to listen to either until maybe the early 90's?

Corporate Death was a good one [compilation, not radio show] :headbang:

Do you guys get all nostalgic thinking about these old compilations? :aww:
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Gutterscream
The Last Old Schooler in Town

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 3:59 pm
Posts: 1414
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:24 pm 
 

TrooperEd wrote:
Gutterscream wrote:
...and hell, even AC/DC can claim this lovely fact.



Are you claiming that AC/DC is metal?
Spoiler: show
cos I agree


No, just saying that even a huge band like AC/DC had their start on a compilation.
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rabidmadman
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:29 pm
Posts: 526
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:09 pm 
 

http://www.discogs.com/Various-Grindcru ... ase/368349

That compilation introduced me to a lot of great bands and it covers a wide spectrum of music as well. I firmly support the inclusion of compilations .

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KFD
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 pm
Posts: 1064
Location: France
PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:00 am 
 

TheUglySoldier wrote:
I agree. Compilations are very important - some more so than others. Take Psychedelia, for example - Nuggets is something most Psychedelic fans I know talk about regularly, in the same breath as other releases.


Yes, I love the Psychedelic Years 2 volumes and would include them in my favourite disks.

I like compilations because they offer variety to the listener. A well-managed track chaining can get quite memorable, to the point of creating the same cohesion of an album.

I am currently planning on releasing a compilation gathering my own different projects, because it's cheaper to release a compilation CD than to release 3 or 4 CDs at the same time.

It's a pity that Metal-Archives wouldn't classify compilations, because a lot of great compilations marked extreme metal history: Death is just the beginning, World Domination, Nordic Metal... The CD samplers provided by metal magazines also had an impact on me when I discovered metal back in the late 1990's.
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