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SJDJ
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:05 am
Posts: 391
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:57 am 
 

So. Savatage is an awesome band. With seemingly far reaching consequences. With several prominent members involved with other major bands (Circle II Circle, TSO, Jon Oliva's Pain) what/who has the best music/song/things worthy of discussion?

Personally, love Savatage and He Carves His Stone is one of my favourite songs of all time. I have yet to really delve into the other projects but TSO's xmas music is a welcome reprieve from some of the other christmas music I had to endure for hours as a salesperson in a store during the holidays.
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Veracs
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Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:56 pm
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Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:46 am 
 

I adore everything they've ever done since I first bought Edge of thorns back in high school, after seeing one of their music videos on VH1 latenight. My favorite album overall would probably be gutter ballet for the operatic feel but songs like Unholy and Sirens really remind you that they are a metal band at heart. Oliva was an incredible vocalist and his brother as well was one of the best guitarist's I can think of, the guy shredded effortlessly on their first three albums and it's a shame he was taken at just 30. As for their latter material, Zach gets an unfair rap for not having the range of Oliva, and people dislike the music for not being as ornate as the first three albums. But Edge of Thorns has just as excellent solos as the prior albums, and Zach is not as much of a slouch as some of the detractor's would have you believe. You mentioned He carves his stone and that is one of the songs he sings his heart out on, as well as experimenting with some odd schizo vocals on Dead winter dead which was a mixed bag. I can honestly say the only album that didn't catch my attention was Wake of Magellan, but other than that I love this band and the work they put out. My thumbs are crossed that they do at least one more album.
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MrMcThrasher II
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Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:01 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 6:18 am 
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAukGWuVyEo
This video alone makes them awesome.
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Spiner202
Metalhead

Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 3:32 pm
Posts: 995
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:01 pm 
 

Veracs wrote:
I adore everything they've ever done since I first bought Edge of thorns back in high school, after seeing one of their music videos on VH1 latenight. My favorite album overall would probably be gutter ballet for the operatic feel but songs like Unholy and Sirens really remind you that they are a metal band at heart. Oliva was an incredible vocalist and his brother as well was one of the best guitarist's I can think of, the guy shredded effortlessly on their first three albums and it's a shame he was taken at just 30. As for their latter material, Zach gets an unfair rap for not having the range of Oliva, and people dislike the music for not being as ornate as the first three albums. But Edge of Thorns has just as excellent solos as the prior albums, and Zach is not as much of a slouch as some of the detractor's would have you believe. You mentioned He carves his stone and that is one of the songs he sings his heart out on, as well as experimenting with some odd schizo vocals on Dead winter dead which was a mixed bag. I can honestly say the only album that didn't catch my attention was Wake of Magellan, but other than that I love this band and the work they put out. My thumbs are crossed that they do at least one more album.

From a technical perspective, I think it's clear Zak is the better vocalist. Jon has a lot more emotion in his voice, but Zak is more of a singer, if that makes sense.

I actually like both eras equally. All four of Zak's albums are really enjoyable, although Dead Winter Dead is probably my least favourite. Jon's stuff is far more hit and miss, but when they hit, it's really fantastic. The only Savatage album I've heard that I genuinely dislike is Poets and Madmen. I found it too long and generally uninteresting, but maybe I need to give it more listens.

Also, seeing Zak and Circle II Circle play The Wake of Magellan in full was awesome! That's one album of theirs that is very underrated (alongside Handful of Rain) and it was very cool to see it done by part of Savatage.
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Ravenlord266
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:18 pm
Posts: 1438
Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 12:18 pm 
 

Savatage has long been my favorite band and I typically can enjoy anything they released, although there are clearly examples of hits and misses ;) I do tend to enjoy the later orchestral post-gutter era more than the early albums though, and my favorite album of theirs is probably The Wake of Magellan. It can quickly change however, next week it could be Streets or Edge of Thorns.

Side-project wise I can definitely enjoy JOP, seen them a lot of times already and I saw TSO 2 years ago in Amsterdam (Beethoven's Last Night tour) and they blew me away as well, very powerful stuff!

I've had the lucky privilege of hanging out with most of the (ex)bandmembers and they are all great guys! One of my favorite collector pieces is a red 'Avatar - City beneath the surface' shirt which Jon signed for me at one of the JOP shows, very cool :)
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Shadoeking
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:34 am
Posts: 1424
Location: United States of America
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:16 pm 
 

I have not heard a ton of Savatage, but I can say that I really enjoy the Hall of the Mountain King album. I have heard the occasional song from other albums and have loved them as well. It is a band that I like quite a bit but have not had a ton of time to really explore.

As for the side projects, TSO is the only one I have heard. I like some of their stuff and even saw them live one year. It really was an incredible live show, one of the most visually stunning live performances I have ever seen. My wife loves the band and has three of their CDs so I have heard quite a bit from them. She was quite surprised when I played Savatage and told her that they were part of the origin of TSO.
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Wahn_nhaW
Metal newbie

Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:34 pm
Posts: 46
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:24 pm 
 

Sirens and The Dungeons are Calling are some of my favourite albums by them, and really, by any metal band. I like everything released with Jon Oliva on vocals, except for Fight for the Rock, or whatever that album's really called. It's not really a Savatage album. I think that Streets is often misunderstood. Sure, if you dislike the Broadway musical approach in general, you're probably not going to like it, but most people never give it a second chance after coming into it expecting epic heavy metal and being disappointed. Of the Zach Stevens albums, I've only heard Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain and they're both very, very good. Jon Oliva is a very gifted songwriting, he has a developed sense of over-the-top (melo)dramatics, which may rub some people the wrong way, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with it, and he's a master of it.

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Oblarg
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Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:59 pm
Posts: 2379
Location: The second sea
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:04 pm 
 

Horribly inconsistent band. Some really great stuff scattered throughout their earlier career, and HotMK is a solid album all-around, but anything with Zach Stevens is just boring hard-rock crap (including Edge of Thorns).
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Twisted_Psychology
Veteran

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 3007
Location: United States
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:32 pm 
 

Savatage has always been one of my favorite bands and I always love to see these threads pop up. They're definitely the type of band that is good for just about any kind of mood as I always listen to their ballads when I'm depressed and their heavier stuff when I feel like going 20 miles over the speed limits. The Dungeons Are Calling may be my favorite overall though just about everything between Hall Of The Mountain King and Edge Of Thorns is flawless and constantly on my playlist. On the flip side, I have yet to really digest Fight For The Rock and Poets And Madmen in full though I like what I've heard from the latter.

As for the post-Savatage projects, Jon Oliva's Pain is definitely my favorite of the big ones as Maniacal Renderings and Festival are just as good as classic Savatage in my opinion. Circle II Circle is also great though rather pedestrian at times and I'd be a much bigger fan of TSO if they had more works in the vein of Beethoven's Last Night. Still need to listen to Doctor Butcher, Chris Caffrey's solo stuff, and whatever else you can work out from the six degrees of separation...
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novakm
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:52 pm
Posts: 179
PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2013 10:55 pm 
 

Savatage is a top 5 band for me. I think Hall of the Mountain King is a bit overrated (although it has its moments) and I only like half of Gutter Ballet but everything after that is gold in my eyes. Chris Caffery had a solid, if overlong, debut solo album with "Faces". The only JOP that I like is "Maniacal Renderings" and the only CIIC is "The Burden of Truth", don't care for much of anything else either band has done.

Oh and Doctor Butcher kicks ass and I still listen to it regularly.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:17 am 
 

I love Hall of the Mountain King, Edge of Thorns and their early Sirens/Dungeons are Calling days - that's some of the finest heavy metal on the planet really. I just love the power and visceral oomph those riffs have, and the totally ballsy, gritty songwriting. And on Edge of Thorns they just craft some great, beautiful leads and emotive hard rock tunes.

Everything else is either middling (Wake of Magellan, DWD) to awful (Streets). Eh. Inconsistent band, but they've had great moments. I love Jon Oliva's Pain though. Combines the classiness of EoT with the jackhammer riffing of the old stuff - totally neat.
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iAmDisturbed
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 10:31 am
Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:10 am 
 

I have always been passionate about this band. Love the bulk of their material and I thought "Poets And Madmen" was a good one.
JOP is the best of the side projects, he sounds better than ever and the riffs are awesome.
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ScandalfTheShite
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:46 am
Posts: 428
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:30 am 
 

Huge fan of their early stuff, namely Sirens, Dungeons are Calling and Power of the Night. And ESPECIALLY Dungeons. Never could get into their later albums. Edge of Thorns to me is just boring. Hall of the Mountain King is kind of a borderline album. Like some songs on it like the title-track and White Witch, but the rest doesn't do me much. I guess I'm bad in the head, 'cause Hall is so much praised by others...
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DESTROYER99
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:36 pm
Posts: 10
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2013 9:52 pm 
 

Yes Hall of the Mountain King!
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Turner
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Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
Posts: 1253
Location: Germany
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:35 am 
 

Hall of the Mountain King thru Edge of Thorns are amazing albums, but after that (beforehand they were imo a bit of a mess) they just went overboard with the "rock opera" crap and their last few albums are formulaic and boring. Literally every song on The Wake of Magellan sounds the same, and from what I remember Poets and Madmen/Dead Winter Dead weren't much better. They were a talented band but wasted it trying (and failing) to be the 90s' answer to Toto.

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Riffs
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Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
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Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:08 am 
 

Savatage is a textbook example of a band self-destructing because of personal problems and tragedies and then going through so many lineup changes that the actual name means different things to different people.

An excellent way to shit all over your legacy.

They would have been a much better band (but a less successful one) if they hadn't hooked up with Paul O'Neill, who is human excrement much like Bob Rock.
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mjollnir
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Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:14 pm
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Location: Boswell, PA USA
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:09 pm 
 

Riffs wrote:
Savatage is a textbook example of a band self-destructing because of personal problems and tragedies and then going through so many lineup changes that the actual name means different things to different people.

An excellent way to shit all over your legacy.

They would have been a much better band (but a less successful one) if they hadn't hooked up with Paul O'Neill, who is human excrement much like Bob Rock.


Um....you know that Hall Of The Mountain King was O'Neill, right?

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Riffs
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:48 am
Posts: 924
Location: Montréal, Québec
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:01 pm 
 

mjollnir wrote:
Riffs wrote:
Savatage is a textbook example of a band self-destructing because of personal problems and tragedies and then going through so many lineup changes that the actual name means different things to different people.

An excellent way to shit all over your legacy.

They would have been a much better band (but a less successful one) if they hadn't hooked up with Paul O'Neill, who is human excrement much like Bob Rock.


Um....you know that Hall Of The Mountain King was O'Neill, right?


Yeah, I know Savatage's whole history, man. O'Neill's influence on the guys was tame in the beginning but it would keep on growing and pussify their sound. Producers like him and Bob Rock represent everything that is wrong about rock and metal music.
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Metallic Shock
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:01 pm
Posts: 409
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:12 pm 
 

Savatage are one of my favorite bands. The only albums I've never been able to get into are Power of the Night, Fight for the Rock, Streets, and Dead Winter Dead. Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain are classics that have meant a lot to me over the years, and of course HotMK and Dungeons are pretty killer too. I personally didn't mind the shift of direction because even though it could get a bit over bloated sometimes there was still pretty consistent songwriting in my opinion. Especially on Magellan and Poets even though there was some filler. Morphine Child for example is an amazing song.

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doomster999
Keeper of the Dreary Realm

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:58 am
Posts: 825
Location: India
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:00 am 
 

Riffs wrote:
Savatage is a textbook example of a band self-destructing because of personal problems and tragedies and then going through so many lineup changes that the actual name means different things to different people.

An excellent way to shit all over your legacy.

They would have been a much better band (but a less successful one) if they hadn't hooked up with Paul O'Neill, who is human excrement much like Bob Rock.


I don't agree with Paul O'Neill being a peer of Bob Rock for Savatage. I mean, Their early stuff like 'Fight for the Rock' etc are pretty much below average cock rock. But then he became involved with the band and produced Hall of the Mountain King which is the peak for the band apparently. Later stuffs like Gutter Ballet and Edge of Thorns are pretty solid as well.
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Opus
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Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 1844
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:44 am 
 

I'm no fan of Savatage. Something about them always rubbed me the wrong way, mainly Steve Wacholz I believe. Jeff Plate was a good substitute, since he is equally boring.
I do however adore Jon Oliva's Pain. It's one of those bands I have to be in the right mood to listen to, otherwise it becomes emotially overwhelming.

You are all forgetting Metalium though. Quality power metal.
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