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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:02 am 
 

http://www.revolvermag.com/news/directo ... bands.html

I think that's a pretty fair list to be honest. Enslaved I personally wouldn't have put there (I'd have gone for Celtic Frost instead), but there's nothing terrible about his list or his reasons for choosing them. I know some people here cannot stand Dunn or his movies/TV shows, so I'm expecting a fairly interesting conversation to take place about this.
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joppek
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:08 am 
 

i'd take possessed and enslaved away and replace with celtic frost and venom

kind of on the fence whether or not morbid angel should take carcass' place as well...
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ENKC
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:16 am 
 

Sam sure does like insisting on 'extreme metal' as being a subgenre in its own right, rather than a catch all term for several gigantic subgenres (death, black, grind, doom, maybe some industrial and folk). It all sounds like an improvement on those execrable grunge and power metal episodes. Can't say that I'd put Enslaved anywhere near that list while leaving Celtic Frost and Venom off with a straight face. Where would you put Napalm Death? Or Slayer? Mayhem? Morbid Angel?

I'll watch it with interest nonetheless.
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volutetheswarth
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:22 am 
 

Also contained in the link is a trailer for the last part of Metal Evolution focusing on extreme metal. Which by the looks of it will be grindcore, death metal and black metal.

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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:23 am 
 

I think the term "extreme metal" can be both a catch all term for several different subgenres and a subgenre all on its own. The way I classify it, a band that is simply "extreme metal" doesn't fall too far into any one particular style that you'd associate with extreme metal (death, black, the more intense side of thrash, etc.). Basically they blend enough styles together to where they aren't definitively a death metal band or a thrash metal band or what have you.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:28 am 
 

This is pretty much just a list of classic bands Sam Dunn likes.

The correct list:
Spoiler: show
5. Slayer
4. Slayer
3. Slayer
2. Slayer
1. Slayer
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:33 am 
 

Quote:
Recent albums Ruun and Axioma Ethica Odini demonstrate that extreme metal can be a vehicle for both savage aggression and oral history, suggesting a brave future for metal’s most transgressive sub-genre.
Yeah, those albums are so extreme. Is there one second of savage aggression on Axioma Ethica Odini?
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Acidgobblin
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:30 am 
 

Enslaved, despite being a pretty great band, are definitely not one of the most important extreme metal bands. I would suggest either Darkthrone, Burzum or maybe Mayhem instead. Potentially remove Carcass too, and would suggest that Venom, Slayer or Celtic Frost could have earned a spot.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:41 am 
 

Sam Dunnce wrote:
Bathory’s self-titled debut record marked the true birth of the black metal sub-genre, transforming black metal from the tongue-in-cheek occult posturing of Venom into a sober, artistic pursuit.


What? The record that's pretty much a straight-up Venom tribute? Yeah, it really marks the point when black metal detached itself from Venom, right? What with all the songs that sound like Venom... maybe Dunn's copy of Bathory's debut is actually Under the Sign of the Black Mark? :roll:
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:21 am 
 

Dunn remains clueless about extreme metal. Give up already. Every docu by him has been misleading and filled with terrible mistakes and misconceptions that its just ridiculous to expect something 'fair' from him.
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ScandalfTheShite
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:42 am 
 

I was not so much into his Metal Evolution -documents. He had time for grunge and hair metal, but not black metal?!? Enslaved is a good band and all, but I would put Venom or Celtic Frost there instead.
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:18 am 
 

Well in his defense he didn't really have a choice in that, VH1 kinda forced him to do the popular genres/relevant to VH1 viewers episodes. Also in his defense of this list, he was after "Most influential", not best/most mandatory listens or whatever, and really outside of Carcass and Enslaved he pretty much picked the big name first up acts, obviously in that context CF could have made sense, but this doesn't necessarily mean he is completely retarded and entry level with his taste/knowledge.

Out of his defense he's a moron who has too much influence and needless attention and he should shut up forever.
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uzilover
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:36 am 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Sam Dunnce wrote:
Bathory’s self-titled debut record marked the true birth of the black metal sub-genre, transforming black metal from the tongue-in-cheek occult posturing of Venom into a sober, artistic pursuit.


What? The record that's pretty much a straight-up Venom tribute? Yeah, it really marks the point when black metal detached itself from Venom, right? What with all the songs that sound like Venom... maybe Dunn's copy of Bathory's debut is actually Under the Sign of the Black Mark? :roll:



I chuckled at that quote. The Bathory debut is anything but a "Sober, artistic pursuit" and all the better for it. It's more "Swedish Satanics try to one up Venom at their own game." I believe that Sodom's "In the Sign of Evil" is the true birth of Sophisticated Black Metal Art. :/

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Marag
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:44 am 
 

Sam Dunn needs to shut up.

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Spiner202
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:47 am 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
Well in his defense he didn't really have a choice in that, VH1 kinda forced him to do the popular genres/relevant to VH1 viewers episodes. Also in his defense of this list, he was after "Most influential", not best/most mandatory listens or whatever, and really outside of Carcass and Enslaved he pretty much picked the big name first up acts, obviously in that context CF could have made sense, but this doesn't necessarily mean he is completely retarded and entry level with his taste/knowledge.

I think Carcass is actually a great choice because it has both the grind and melodeath aspects of extreme metal to it.

Enslaved is the only semi-questionable choice, and probably has more to do with his love of the band. People are going to complain that their band (whether it be Celtic Frost, Hellhammer, Mayhem, or whoever else) isn't on it, but it's hard to define all of death, black, and grindcore in just 5 bands.

Also, the reason he's doing extreme metal together is because it's unbelievably expensive to produce these episodes, and there's no way he could afford to do more than 1. People are going to complain because he won't spend enough time on each subject, but if it's only 40ish minutes, there's no way to adequately cover all of extreme metal. It's going to be a great episode, like most other things he does. Even if he spent 2 hours on each genre, it would be impossible to cover everything in them.
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Sokaris
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:19 am 
 

Not a horrible list but am I reading this right? Death were influenced by Autopsy?
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Acrobat
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:38 am 
 

uzilover wrote:
I chuckled at that quote. The Bathory debut is anything but a "Sober, artistic pursuit" and all the better for it. It's more "Swedish Satanics try to one up Venom at their own game." I believe that Sodom's "In the Sign of Evil" is the true birth of Sophisticated Black Metal Art. :/


See, it's shit like this which is why Dunn is worth keeping around. He's a "metal pundit" of sorts and he literally knows fuck all about the genre. He could fall into a bag of nipples and he'd still come out sucking his thumb. Give him more money, let idiocy reign!
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Element_man
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:56 am 
 

I just wanna say: This thread fucking rules. Keep up the great work, guys. Nothing like a good Sam-bashing to start the day off right. :)
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xThe__Wizard
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:34 am 
 

Why does everyone think Venom is an extreme metal band?
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:36 am 
 

They may not have been straight extreme metal themselves, but they were a major influence on it.
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xThe__Wizard
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:39 am 
 

Yeah but Bathory was kind of a jump from the first wave sound to the second wave sound.
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Thiestru
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:06 pm 
 

Who cares?
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:08 pm 
 

Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.
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Subrick
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:26 pm 
 

And, ya know, providing a name for an entire genre. But that's not important at all. :rolleyes:
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:42 pm 
 

inhumanist wrote:
Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.


No. I'm not going to guess how much metal you've listened to, how old you are, or anything stupid like that. I'm just going to say that if anything, Venom's influence is underrated, and you even admit that they influenced a boatload of important bands you listed. Venom may love Motorhead but they certainly never copied them as blatantly as Bathory did, and the Venom influence in bands as diverse as Voivod, Slayer, Sabbat (JP), Metallica, Deceased, Celtic Frost and even reaching out of metal and into punk, is just incalculable. It's all right that you think they're goofy and don't enjoy them, but acknowledge that they're hugely, fundamentally important.
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bloodmyst
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:18 pm 
 

For those of us who don't want to click or find the link broken here's his list:

  • Bathory
  • Possessed
  • Carcass
  • Death
  • Enslaved

Quote:
Possessed: Ratcheting up metal’s evil quotient with ultra-low guttural vocals

Ultra-low vocals? Um, no.

Quote:
Enslaved began their career amidst the pack of Norwegian black metal bands that exploded in the early 90s. But by decade’s end they had matured into an eccentric blend of black-meets-prog-meets-folk metal

So, how does this make them an important "extreme metal" band, again?

Missing Slayer and Venom, but including Enslaved is just laughable.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:20 pm 
 

Whatever, it's just one guy's list; no better or worse than anyone else's.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:29 pm 
 

To the newcomers/entry level metalheads that think Venom is overrated: Venom is the sole father of extreme metal. That includes speed, thrash, death and black metal in its ENTIRETY. Not even Metallica would have made Kill' em All without Venom around.

Possessed/Death are good picks since they developed death metal. Slayer could have also being included here in a similar sense instead Carcass. There's also Morbid Angel that, no matter what they're doing now, they are one of the most influential metal acts, not only for death metal but also to black metal.

BUT...If there's a man that made a complete shift/showed a totally new path for generations to follow and would second Venom in terms of importance, is Tom G. Warrior. HH/CF comes just second in terms of influence to extreme metal as a whole. Every black metal band in existence have taken a bit of Warrior in every part of the world; Brazil, Norway, Sweden, Greece, Canada, US, you name it. Not only black metal, but also death and more extreme doom metal acts has been influenced by CF/HH in invaluable ways.

Enslaved is the oddest one. Norwegian black metal has way better and more important bands to name; Darkthrone, Emperor and Burzum have been way more influential than Enslaved in every sense; even Ulver deserves more the mention for bringing the black/folk genre and the whole generation of neofolk bands.
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bloodmyst
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:29 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Whatever, it's just one guy's list; no better or worse than anyone else's.

Not to be a dick, but the guy has interviewed a lot of legendary bands in many different countries around the world.


Last edited by bloodmyst on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:31 pm 
 

bloodmyst wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
Whatever, it's just one guy's list; no better or worse than anyone else's.


Not to be a dick, but the guy has interviewed a lot of legendary bands in many different countries around the world.


Yeah, maybe; I don't know anything about that. So he's a journalist. Good for him. :P
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:32 pm 
 

bloodmyst wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
Whatever, it's just one guy's list; no better or worse than anyone else's.


Not to be a dick, but the guy has interviewed a lot of legendary bands in many different countries around the world.


It doesn't matter if he's a totally clueless guy that can't discern between doom and stoner bands, for naming some of his ridiculous claims.
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bloodmyst
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:35 pm 
 

Hey, I don't agree with his list either, but it's at least worth talking about considering his background. That's all I'm saying.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:36 pm 
 

Oh, he should make his lists, by all means, but giving his words undue import would be a mistake...

Kveldulv, good post about Venom and Tom G.'s bands; i agree totally, of course.

Ok, back to Sam for a moment, I've no doubt that he's been around the block and knows what he's on about as far as bands and scenes go. But he wouldn't be the first journalist to write about metal and not really see the big picture, or choose not to. I'm sure everyone's heard of that Riff Kills guide to heavy metal written by Martin Popoff and remembers just how bad much of the stuff on "extreme metal" bands was. it clearly wasnt' his specialty; I recall he wrote enthusiastically about a lot of glam bands. These guys limit themselves to certain genre specialties and then are tasked with writing books or doing shows on the entire gamut of stuff, from Motley Crue to havohej, and naturally some things are just going to come up short.
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bloodmyst
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:38 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Yeah, maybe; I don't know anything about that. So he's a journalist. Good for him. :P

...and an anthropologist, a documentarian, and musician.


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absurder21
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:39 pm 
 

I can agree with it all except the Enslaved bit, which kinda boggles me a little. I mean yeah, they do have influence and are progressive, but there's definitely a good amount more bands that should be filling that spot.

Abominatrix wrote:
inhumanist wrote:
Venom's influence is overrated. They were influential, but nowhere near Celtic Frost, Bathory, Slayer, Napalm Death, Morbid Angel, Darkthrone or even Possessed when it comes to concrete musical influence.

Yes I know they influenced most of these bands. Shut up. Their contribution was goofy satanism and copying Motörhead.


No. I'm not going to guess how much metal you've listened to, how old you are, or anything stupid like that. I'm just going to say that if anything, Venom's influence is underrated, and you even admit that they influenced a boatload of important bands you listed. Venom may love Motorhead but they certainly never copied them as blatantly as Bathory did, and the Venom influence in bands as diverse as Voivod, Slayer, Sabbat (JP), Metallica, Deceased, Celtic Frost and even reaching out of metal and into punk, is just incalculable. It's all right that you think they're goofy and don't enjoy them, but acknowledge that they're hugely, fundamentally important.

WTF, Bathory don't sound like anything anywhere NEAR Motorhead in comparison to Venom. I agree with everything else, but that one was just a huge no. How do songs like In Conspiracy with Satan, Equmanthorn or Blood Fire Death sound more like Overkill, Stone Dead and Bomber than Venom's Live like an Angel, Sons of Satan or Raise the Dead?

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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:41 pm 
 

Meh, does anyone really care about Sam Dunn anymore? Decent list, although completely obvious. For extreme metal being it's own genre, I disagree. It is an umbrella term, and when something fits only under extreme metal, it's not because it fits under a specific established sound, it's because nothing else works besides the vague general term.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:43 pm 
 

Eh, listen to the non-album version of "Sacrifice" and check out the song "Burning' Leather"...maybe even the SA version of "Return of Darkness and Evil". Anyway, Motorhead is one band that Quorthon does actually admit to taking a whole load of his sound from, unlike Venom, which he claims to have never listened to until, oh, about exactly the time when Bathory stopped sounding like Venom, around the third album. :lol:

My point wasnt' that Venom werent' influenced by Motorhead, just that Bathory was always much more blatant about that sort of thing, whether we're talking Motorhead, Metallica, Manowar or whatever band. Anyway, I guess tha'ts losing sight of the main point anyway, which is that Venom is one of a small handful of bands that every later band should bow to at least on some level.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:55 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
It's all right that you think they're goofy and don't enjoy them

I didn't say that. I enjoyed them greatly when I saw them last saturday.
Kveldulfr wrote:
Venom is the sole father of extreme metal.

For me it's Motörhead, without doubt (if we want to go that far back that is). They were the first to combine heavy metal with the extremity and speed of hardcore punk.
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:29 pm 
 

bloodmyst wrote:
Abominatrix wrote:
Yeah, maybe; I don't know anything about that. So he's a journalist. Good for him. :P

...and an anthropologist, a documentarian, and musician.

So? His metal knowledge is pretty low compared to many journalists and interviewing well known musicians doesn't mean shit. This can be judged with his metal chart from his first movie. There's so many newb mistake on this that it's laughable. Opeth as goth metal? Cradle of Filth as Norwegian black metal? Witchfinder General and Candlemass as stoner metal? Nah, fuck Sam Dunn, he's only a metal "expert" in the eyes of 14 years old who are getting into Children of Bodom.
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xThe__Wizard
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Posts: 845
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:01 pm 
 

Man this has gotten really dumb.
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Controlled by Fear. Grindcore. Split with Special Buddy Discount out now.

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