lol Black Flag weren't straight-edge.

Not only weren't they straight-edge, but they were known to use the shit out of drunks and alcohol. I think Rollins was the only one that saw any of it as detrimental, but a lot of that also had to do with how it impacted tours and how people treated each other.

They may not smoke pot or anything else, but they definitely know how to drink.

Well, I'm 25, I own my house fully, own my car outright, and have had plenty of bad nights with liquor. I have plenty of life experience. Look, I'm not trying to insult you here. I know you said you used to be pretty heavy into drinking, and that's a shame. I'm just saying that a lot of people like to look for blame elsewhere. I don't need to become a raging alcoholic to see that having no control isn't always the case. There are always options. It's fine if you think I'm wrong, this all just opinion, right? Call me whatever you like, it's just my opinion. It's not hurting anyone.

Second of all, that was in reference to, "It's not comparable to most other forms of addiction due to the prevalence of alcohol use in our culture." Mind altering substances of all sorts have been prevalent in human society since our dawning. I don't agree at all that it's not comparable. Acid and pot was prevalent throughout the 60s and 70s, was widely available, and while pot is not physically addictive, it can be VERY psychologically addictive, as can acid. I'm just saying, would a person who used to be addicted to cocaine or heroin defend his stance any less than you? Would he/she willingly blame themselves for going too far with more ease than you? Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not implying that you, in whatever situation you might have been in, personally had any control over your consumption of alcohol. I'm just saying that it's entirely possible that a lot of alcoholics just refuse to admit that they didn't want to control themselves. Of course it's different for each situation. But to say it's somehow hardwired into the human brain to lose complete control over our indulgences just sounds ridiculous to me. So hey, lets just agree to disagree, and continue on with the discussion, eh?

Metal's appeal is "danger". The definition of danger:

"exposure or liability to injury, pain, harm, or loss"

Does this excuse the behaviour? No. It is not intended that way either. It is simply a by-product of what heavy metal actually is. The same is largely true for most punk subgenres. It is largely true for many hip hop subgenres.



Is there?



Tell me about "metal culture" and how it seeks to find admission and acceptance in western society. Oh, it doesn't? OK then. It is largely revolutionary in nature. Revolutions have a tendency to be messy.



I don't think they should be cherished. I don't respect them in any way shape or form. I also don't necessarily respect a lot of aspects of "being metal" by whatever standards people apply to that statement. Like I said, I'm largely an observer at this point sitting on his duff listening to the music in my car or in my house. "The scene" isn't something I identify with for the most part at this stage in my life. YMMV.

I personally think there is a big thick line myself.

BTW, curious as to why you often quote people while removing their names. I find it a bit confusing and unproductive when you do that, to be honest.

So...is there anyone else who listens to metal simply because they enjoy the music and doesn't care about culture/counterculturism, rebellion and tearing down western civilization norms? I didn't start listening to the genre because it pissed my parents off, I hated my teachers and boss or that I needed an outlet for my anger. If anything, the whole metal brotherhood thing puts me off. It always comes across as people being too insecure with themselves and needing something that connects them with something larger. I want friends that I can connect with based on something more than a genre of music.

I go to concerts because they're fun. Not to rebel against "the man", not to act like an asshole just because the atmosphere supposedly gives me an excuse. You can be rowdy without groping someone and without pummeling someone into unconsciousness. I don't drink or do any drugs, but I'm perfectly fine with them in moderation/getting a buzz. You can mosh, you can unwind and you can have fun without being a dick. Saying those who are assholes are the same as people having a good time is erroneous.

Usually I use the quick reply feature and add the HTML tags myself, that way I can more easily navigate the thread. Just my personal preference I guess?

wow!you own your own car!your a big boy aren't you na, it's pretty good to own your own house at 25 these days,i just brought my first house at 29.....We agree to disagree..back to the topic

How many people consciously say, "I hate ______, and listening to metal makes them angry so I'll listen to metal"? That sort of adolescent response barely exists in people who can type a coherent sentence. Having said that, the vast majority of people who listen to something as outwardly aggressive as heavy metal (especially more extreme forms like death/thrash/black) are going to have something intrinsically about their emotional/psychological state that makes such music or the scene surrounding it appealing. This gets to a larger discussion about heavy metal in a sociological sense and could be tied back to the lousy thread about women in heavy metal elsewhere in the forum.



You said it best: "it supposedly gives you an excuse". Some of the things you enjoy doing at shows I find conceptually appealing but I've come to the conclusion I no longer want to deal with. I don't want to spend half an hour (or more) at a clip with my arm sticking out in front of me or shoving dudes back into the pit. So I don't go.

In order for that to be true, you'd have to make the definition of "danger" so much broader than your little dictionary definition that it would lose all relevance. In short: bullshit.


Luckily, you answered this question for me:

You don't participate in that form of social interaction and thus have no understanding of the social rules involved. This forum is an extension of metal culture, and there's a pretty clear line between general rowdiness and the sort of behavior that necessitates being shown the door.

edit: I'll take the post below as my cue to suggest that if anyone wants to discuss my opinion further to PM me and let this go back to the original topic.

Careful to keep this on topic and relevant folks. There's a difference between using this thread as a general discussion of drinking/social behaviour/the sociology of metal, using it to intellectually (or in some cases non-intellectually) beat down on others, and using it to have a fair discussion on the issue that droneriot wrote about in the original post (the actual purpose of this thread). Spread the topic too thin and make it a melting pot of off-topic topics, and this thread might find a soon and quick, sudden death.

I actually like this post a lot. I came here to say that to my eyes, there are just as many radical straight edge views about drinking *particularly in black metal and punk* as there are pro-alcohol ideas in heavy music. But that's the nature content in extreme music; ideology in excess. Very black and white. But you shouldn't be so concerned as to how you think you should behave according to what some band thinks, as Jonpo said, life is a huge grey blob... lol

That might be true, but it is pretty well known Rollins' stand on Alcohol. "There's no time for drinking this Jack Daniels Poison", taken from when he talked about the stupid things you do in life, and suddenly you are dead.

Nothing wrong with breathing out the flame of doom with a cold beer. Alchoholisms aren't something to admire but they're a bit of fun.

Yeah, I agree about gigs but what about other social places for entertainment? Theatres, cinemas, operas, racetracks,...?!?
Isn't that going TOO far?!?

Australia has cinemas with bars, or "Gold Class" where you can be served alcohol during the film. Racetracks sure as hell have alcohol...

Not that strange.

It says more about audience than metal itself because people seek out that with which they can relate. For some it's alcohol for others fantasy, or cosmology, or paganism, or politics.

Yep. I think the drummer is an electrician or a plumber or something like that, I'm not sure about the others...

Yep... although that stuff is cool as well

*raise hand*

don't think anyone said they were

Alcohol is manufactured by the sheep for the sheep. Besides what could possibly be more kvlt than sobriety?

I think the craft/microbrew industry would like a word with you...

I think the reason alcoholism is so prominent in metal is because, while lyrics wise alcohol is not as common as say murder and violence, well, other than in the speed and folk styles, it is a everyday occurance in society which effects many people and so becomes more human. Contrasting this is the themes of goat rituals and virgin rape. Though it happens in occassionaly in society, to the sane person, it is naught but fantasy.

To an earlier comment: When sober I seem to enjoy nothing but Black, Thrash, Death, etc. metal, but for some reason, once I'm down a 12 pack and/or a few lines of coke, rap becomes equally apealling. I think it's because, honestly, as metal heads our tastes have evloved beyond the sheep like mentality of modern society, yet, when blasted on various substances, our intelligence starts to lower to the level of 'regular' people. Often though, it seems I listen to it sarcastically and ironically. The whole rap culture is so fucking laughably shallow!

Gotta love getting a 24-pack Corona, 8-ball, and some old school B.I.G. Good times.

you're right, I misread your post. 'Thirsty and Miserable' though doesn't come across so much as totally an anti-drinking song but moreso against people who use it as their only means of having fun.

This seems to be spot on. I am personally enamored with the abrasiveness of certain genres and the extremes in some bands ideologies. I am not meaning to engage in a debate, I am merely accepting of this. I think many people have an "extreme" side.

But we're comparing US, Canada, Australia,... with Europe.
I find it odd to sell alcohol EVERYWHERE.


LOL! +1.


Wait! What?!? No. I understand what you say but... do you REALLY think that's the cause? C'mon!

Brutal self sestruction in solitude without complaining or asking for charity... Ever.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

This may just be a perception thing, BasqueStorm. A lot of North Americans come back from Europe amazed, astonished at the prevalence of alcohol there. Stories about home dinners routinely being served with copious amounts of wine, for instance. Like it's a fucking holiday when we're just in the middle of the week

The alcohol may just be served at different time, different places and different ways. But I've yet to find one North American telling me: Gee, I sure had a lot of problems finding a shitload of alcohol in Germany/Italy/France

I haven't met many metalheads, but every metalhead I have met has been a drunk, pothead, or a combination of both. I drink occasionally and even when I do drink I'm satisfied with a slight buzzed feeling, I never go for the full-on wasted feeling because honestly it fucking sucks and you can't remember shit. When you're buzzed you can at least know what you're doing while still being a bit drunk.

I think that, for one, you're giving metalheads FAR too much credit. There are a lot of us, and plenty of us are just as shit-for-brains as the rest of the population, and two, I don't think I've ever suddenly enjoyed rap, dance, or any form of electronic at any level of diaper drunkness. Anyway, of course we wouldn't be operating at full cognitive capacity after banging back 15 beers. Doesn't mean we're suddenly stupid. That happens when you black out.

LOL, agree with you on the overestimation of the average metalhead being somehow more "evolved".

On the matter of getting suddenly stupid when you're drunk: that doesn't necessarily happen, but alcohol seems to produce disinhibition in a lot of people. For some, that can mean their ugly side suddenly comes out when usually, it doesn't. Combine that with the fact it boosts confidence and affects judgment and you've got an explosive cocktail when a usually repressed asshole decides to down a dozen+ beers.

Your right,i don't ever remember liking really crap music when drunk,even after adding a few dancing type pills to the mix.

But i have to admit, i have only begun to like metal (black/ambient/DSBM..whatever the fuck your supposed to call it) after i got sober....

I personally don't listen to bands that idealize alcohol use or even really have lyrics about using alcohol (there might be a couple of songs in my library but nothing that immediately comes to mind). I drink on rare occasions, for no real reason, just not something I take time to do, and I actually dislike being drunk as I find it to be pretty uncomfortable. The whole "w00, ALCOHOL!" mentality doesn't appeal to me; it's not "just metalheads" who have this sort of attitude, just go to any college frat. In fact, getting shit-faced in general is not exactly incredibly counterculture anymore since it's common in a variety of instances/subcultures. People talk about getting shit-faced at office parties for fuck's sake.
It just comes across as pathetic to me when somebody's major source of entertainment comes from getting shit-faced. Going out, having some drinks with friends to loosen up a bit, that's fine. People want to relax and let go of their worries for a while, I get it and that's cool. But going somewhere and specifically getting shit-faced just so X activity can be super awesome fun? I find suspect the kind of person that's into that.
And really, that's just personal preference. I couldn't care less if somebody goes to shows, hangs out with friends, whatever and constantly gets ridiculously drunk. I only start to care if they try to mess with me or start acting like a such fantastic douche to the point where even other inebriated people are getting annoyed ("that guy" syndrome).

Whether it's idealized too much or not, I can't really say but I do notice that a lot of the exposure metal gets in some form of media, positive or negative, will inevitably show people being wasted or in the process of getting wasted. I can at least say excessive alcohol consumption seems to be overemphasized in metal.

Having a chuckle at all the humblebrags going on in here."I'm so much smarter than all those un-evolved people who drink blah blah blah" Especially funny given that so many of them are coming from people who seem to be only just of legal age and/or from the US, a country with a notoriously puritan outlook about booze - I read somewhere that the US has a bizarrely high number of adults who are teetotalers, way out of line with most comparable countries. Add to that the reliance on cars and you get the bizarre drinking culture I saw when I was there. People looking at you like you needed to go to AA if you suggested going to the pub after work during the week and having like 2 beers, or drinking a bottle of wine with dinner over 3 hours. As has been remarked upon, in the rest of the civilised world, there is not a "glamour" factor (positive or negative) about it the way I observed in the states. It's just a normal, everyday part of life that goes on. Certainly here in Australia, the local pub is a central part of most communities, usually with a nice garden, serves meals, and is the meeting-place where everyone gathers (rather than being a seedy dive bar full of drunks or a raucous nightclub).

I dont think I've ever come across any songs "glorifying" alcoholism. Some glorify drinking. There is an absolutely massive difference - who on earth would glorify a crippling disease that will completely fuck up your life? In fact the only thing that springs to mind is Bukowski's writing, and even that is coming from a pretty bleak place.

The idea of alcohol themed metal has just been way over done but I think a song like this can really work:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nOejmKe-N4

They sort of do it like it's a Russian theme song which really works.

Once a friend of mine had a couchsurfer from New York City sleep at his place for two nights before the guy went on to the next city. In the evening of the first day I joined them at my friend's flat and we watched a football Champions League game and were drinking beer out of cans. After a while we decided to go out to some pub in the inner city, so I popped open a new can and said, let's go. The American looked at me with great surprise and asked if we don't want to finish off our beers first. He simply couldn't believe that it's absolutely no problem here to drink alcohol on the streets and on the underground trains. Well, drinking alcohol on public service vehicles is officially forbidden, but nobody gives a damn, especially on Friday and Saturday evening one can observe groups of young people getting already veritably drunk on their way to the pub/bar/club of their choice, drinking beer or passing around a vodka bottle or something. Now that I think about it, when I go out myself, before I head home I often buy a döner kebab and another beer (at the same vendor, obviosly) before I get on the underground - don't want to be thirsty on the way, haha!

Well, the American guy really couldn't believe it, but he told us something that we couldn't grasp. That where he's from some people do drink on the streets, but with the bottle hidden in a plastic bag... That shit is hilarious!





It seems like there's no decent drinking culture in the US (the local Australian pub described above seems rather familiar to me on the other hand), either people stay sober or get completely shit-faced. Well, probably that's what you get when your father takes you to the shooting range instead of drinking your first beer with you to show you what "drink responsibly" means.